WSC Force Feedback

I'm writing this in response to the comments made about force feedback technology in the recent sim-racing news article with the developers of WSC. Chris and Tony West, please don't underestimate the level of acceptance that current FF wheels aleady enjoy, and the useful feedback they provide. Current FF isn't close to perfect. It has some problems. But it is still extremely worthwile in it's current form, compared to the feedback void that is the alternative. My perception is that a person with a vested interest in diminishing the positive aspects of current FF technology has latched onto the Wests, and is having a negative impact on implementation of FF in WSC. Here is a selected quote from the anti-FF person: "Honestly, I prefer to drive without force feedback... At the moment, it removes you from the reality. If it doesn't feel exactly right, then it spoils the fantasy." And driving with a spring-loaded wheel delivers the ultimate in reality? Please! This comes from a person who makes a living from a product which currently does not have an option for force feedback. Kaemmers comments about transient weight shifting when entering a corner is spot-on, and his recommendation is absolutely right - "don't pay attention to it", just like you wouldn't pay attention to it if you were driving a Hyperstim. But, even on road courses, current FF wheels deliver much needed force level feedback on the limits of traction mid-corner. I don't know about other people, but I never crash when turning into a corner. The critical points are mid-corner, and unwinding back onto the straight. Transients in both of those areas are slow enough to allow some degree of usable feedback by current FF wheels. The thing that really gets under my skin about the interview are the "dirty looks" from the anti-FF person, and his comment in response to Chris West: CW: We haven't put it [FF] in yet. But when we do, hopefully someone like John will have developed a good force feedback wheel that we can use it with. JC: Well, we're waiting for you to finish development on this sim! [laughs] Maybe he really was joking, and they are well into development of a FF wheel. I suspect, though, given his total dismissal of the current state of FF technology, that it will be a long time before he delivers a FF wheel. Even then, how many of us will be able to afford one? Bottom line - I hope that the West's are not using this anti-FF person as their guiding light toward implementation of FF, because he has already made clear his self-serving opposition to it. I hope that John Crooke's real intention is to move the technology forward. But the West's should understand that most people are going to use lower-end FF hardware. GPL, GP3, and Viper racing have already proven that this hardware is viable. Very few people will ever find themselves sitting in a FF Hyperstim, and even fewer people will ever own one. -- Pat Dotson

Glen Priest wrote: > Spot on, Pat! I noticed that anti-FF atmosphere, too, and it DID seem > to me that the West brothers were buying it. There is NO ONE I respect > more in the US in the racing sim hobby/sport than Alison Hine, and I > kept thinking as I read that interview, "That sure isn't what Alison > says and thinks!" I think that she has further said that she would > NEVER go back to a non-FF GPL version. I never for a minute thought that the West's wouldn't include FF. I just don't want the opinion that FF is worthless to be thrown around without a rebuttal, especially when that opinion comes from special interests. > Hey, btw, I'm working on that kart possibility! And are you going > to the LAN race which I guess is in Bloomington? I'm sure I will be in Bloomington. Let me know about the kart thing! -- Pat Dotson

Glen Priest wrote: > Spot on, Pat! I noticed that anti-FF atmosphere, too, and it DID seem > to me that the West brothers were buying it. There is NO ONE I respect > more in the US in the racing sim hobby/sport than Alison Hine, and I > kept thinking as I read that interview, "That sure isn't what Alison > says and thinks!" I think that she has further said that she would > NEVER go back to a non-FF GPL version. I never for a minute thought that the West's wouldn't include FF. I just don't want the opinion that FF is worthless to be thrown around without a rebuttal, especially when that opinion comes from special interests. > Hey, btw, I'm working on that kart possibility! And are you going > to the LAN race which I guess is in Bloomington? I'm sure I will be in Bloomington. Let me know about the kart thing! -- Pat Dotson

Glen Priest wrote: > Spot on, Pat! I noticed that anti-FF atmosphere, too, and it DID seem > to me that the West brothers were buying it. There is NO ONE I respect > more in the US in the racing sim hobby/sport than Alison Hine, and I > kept thinking as I read that interview, "That sure isn't what Alison > says and thinks!" I think that she has further said that she would > NEVER go back to a non-FF GPL version. I never for a minute thought that the West's wouldn't include FF. I just don't want the opinion that FF is worthless to be thrown around without a rebuttal, especially when that opinion comes from special interests. > Hey, btw, I'm working on that kart possibility! And are you going > to the LAN race which I guess is in Bloomington? I'm sure I will be in Bloomington. Let me know about the kart thing! -- Pat Dotson

Glen Priest wrote: > Spot on, Pat! I noticed that anti-FF atmosphere, too, and it DID seem > to me that the West brothers were buying it. There is NO ONE I respect > more in the US in the racing sim hobby/sport than Alison Hine, and I > kept thinking as I read that interview, "That sure isn't what Alison > says and thinks!" I think that she has further said that she would > NEVER go back to a non-FF GPL version. I never for a minute thought that the West's wouldn't include FF. I just don't want the opinion that FF is worthless to be thrown around without a rebuttal, especially when that opinion comes from special interests. > Hey, btw, I'm working on that kart possibility! And are you going > to the LAN race which I guess is in Bloomington? I'm sure I will be in Bloomington. Let me know about the kart thing! -- Pat Dotson

Glen Priest wrote: > Spot on, Pat! I noticed that anti-FF atmosphere, too, and it DID seem > to me that the West brothers were buying it. There is NO ONE I respect > more in the US in the racing sim hobby/sport than Alison Hine, and I > kept thinking as I read that interview, "That sure isn't what Alison > says and thinks!" I think that she has further said that she would > NEVER go back to a non-FF GPL version. I never for a minute thought that the West's wouldn't include FF. I just don't want the opinion that FF is worthless to be thrown around without a rebuttal, especially when that opinion comes from special interests. > Hey, btw, I'm working on that kart possibility! And are you going > to the LAN race which I guess is in Bloomington? I'm sure I will be in Bloomington. Let me know about the kart thing! -- Pat Dotson

"David L. Cook" wrote: > > My guess is the West brothers were only playing it down because John Crooke was > standing right there next to them. They know that GPL FF is EXCELLENT. I think > its hillarious when these controller manufacturers downplay FF because they > haven't yet created a device that supports it. When I wrote that, I hadn't even seen the interview on the same site with a guy from HS. He says it will be 18 months to two years before they will have FF available. No wonder they are trying to talk people out of today's FF! -- Pat Dotson

On Fri 28 Jul 2000 10:57:33pm, Pat Dotson wrote: <snip> >I hope that John Crooke's real intention is to move the technology >forward. But the West's should understand that most people are >going to use lower-end FF hardware. GPL, GP3, and Viper racing have >already proven that this hardware is viable. Very few people will >ever find themselves sitting in a FF Hyperstim, and even fewer >people will ever own one.<snip> Interesting post. And you're right - there's no point in writing WSC so that it only works properly with a �2000 PC and a FF Hyperstim, as all that will do is annoy the hell out of the "user community" the Wests say they want to build up. It's got to be playable and enjoyable on a reasonable spec machine. I don't expect it to work on my current Celeron 400, but it would be a disaster if it were as inefficiently coded as F12000, for example. -- David. (GPLRank handicap: -3.01) "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really." (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

Nice one Pat... I concur. Jan. =--- Pat Dotson wrote... > <snip>

My guess is the West brothers were only playing it down because John Crooke was standing right there next to them. They know that GPL FF is EXCELLENT. I think its hillarious when these controller manufacturers downplay FF because they haven't yet created a device that supports it. --David Cook In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] wrote...

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> I'm writing this in response to the comments made about force feedback > technology in the recent sim-racing news article with the developers of > WSC. > > Chris and Tony West, please don't underestimate the level of acceptance > that current FF wheels aleady enjoy, and the useful feedback they > provide.

I couldn't agree more, Pat. The whole time I was reading that I just wanted to jump up and start defending FF as implemented in GPL. If only I had been there :-) In fact I just couldn't understand the point the JC was making about hardware being the problem. I would think that from sim to wheel you should be able to get the latencies inside 20 milliseconds and this would seem plenty fast for me considering the latencies of humans. That being said, Randy Cassidy was in VROC tonight and I asked him that question, he said that latencies >1 (one!) millisec could begin to be perceived. That is not at all what I would have expected, but, GPL is a testament to the fact that the guy knows what he is talking about. Seems to me that GPL has done a pretty good job with prediction or something because I've never noticed a delay in the FF. WestBro's, Pat is right... FF works, even today (err... a couple of years ago). Nothing is perfect, but, there *is* info in there and that has to be a good thing. Randy On Fri, 28 Jul 2000 16:57:33 -0500, Pat Dotson <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>I'm writing this in response to the comments made about force feedback >technology in the recent sim-racing news article with the developers of >WSC. > >Chris and Tony West, please don't underestimate the level of acceptance >that current FF wheels aleady enjoy, and the useful feedback they >provide.

Nice one Pat... I concur. Jan. =---

Spot on, Pat! I noticed that anti-FF atmosphere, too, and it DID seem to me that the West brothers were buying it. There is NO ONE I respect more in the US in the racing sim hobby/sport than Alison Hine, and I kept thinking as I read that interview, "That sure isn't what Alison says and thinks!" I think that she has further said that she would NEVER go back to a non-FF GPL version. I think they will SURELY not let that thing come out with no FF when everything else about it seems to be so fabulous. Hey, btw, I'm working on that kart possibility! And are you going to the LAN race which I guess is in Bloomington? * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!

Pat...please only hit enter once<G> "Glen Priest" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Spot on, Pat! I noticed that anti-FF atmosphere, too, and it DID seem > to me that the West brothers were buying it. There is NO ONE I respect > more in the US in the racing sim hobby/sport than Alison Hine, and I > kept thinking as I read that interview, "That sure isn't what Alison > says and thinks!" I think that she has further said that she would > NEVER go back to a non-FF GPL version. > I think they will SURELY not let that thing come out with no FF > when everything else about it seems to be so fabulous. > Hey, btw, I'm working on that kart possibility! And are you going > to the LAN race which I guess is in Bloomington? > > > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network

* > The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! >

Pat...please only hit enter once<G>

On Fri, 28 Jul 2000 16:57:33 -0500, Pat Dotson <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Here is a selected quote from the anti-FF person: >"Honestly, I prefer to drive without force feedback... At the moment, it >removes you from the reality. If it doesn't feel exactly right, then it >spoils the fantasy." > >And driving with a spring-loaded wheel delivers the ultimate in reality? >Please! This comes from a person who makes a living from a product >which currently does not have an option for force feedback.

The purpose of a sim is to provide you with the best representation of participating in what is being simulated yes? A sort of suspension of disbelief. For my own part I have tried now three different FF wheels, and returned all of them, as I find that they break this illusion. Everyone knows how a car should feel under their hands, and it certainly doesn't try to jerk the wheel out of my hands when entering a turn. I'm sure FF will eventually reach a level where it does add to the overall experience, and it will only do that through the cycle of demand, development, support and feedback. However, right here and now I haven't found it convincing or beneficial at all, so I suppose in that I agree with your "anti-FF" person, although I myself am far from anti-FF. I would question the benefit in terms of the quality of the final product of dedicating a lit of development time to software which does not and cannot have hardware to support it in the foreseeable future. Add it as a patch "if and when". Cheers! John