Re: Its not perfect...

He's referring to John Crooke's anti-force feedback comments? I find them laughable. He has a vested interest in running FF into the ground, namely, that Hyperstim doesn't have a FF option available. -- PD Barry Leek wrote: > > I agree, there's things to pick. 4 years is a bloody long time. My only > complaint was that JC was claiming things were not possible that ARE. Who > knows, the West Bros probably used JC's immaculate Hyperstim! > > Anyway, I am all for a GPL driven modern day F1 sim. Until then, though I'm > persevering with GP3 (and enjoying it). > > Out of curiosity, what wheel do you use and what wheel does DK recommend? I > use the LWFF with GPL and find it pretty good going.

On 28 Jul 2000 06:36:37 GMT, "Barry Leek" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I agree, there's things to pick. 4 years is a bloody long time. My only >complaint was that JC was claiming things were not possible that ARE. Who's "JC" anyway? :-)

I agree, there's things to pick. 4 years is a bloody long time. My only complaint was that JC was claiming things were not possible that ARE. Who knows, the West Bros probably used JC's immaculate Hyperstim! Anyway, I am all for a GPL driven modern day F1 sim. Until then, though I'm persevering with GP3 (and enjoying it). Out of curiosity, what wheel do you use and what wheel does DK recommend? I use the LWFF with GPL and find it pretty good going.

Who's "JC" anyway? :-)

On Fri, 28 Jul 2000 10:39:40 +0200, Jan Loebzien <[email hidden]> wrote: >On 28 Jul 2000 06:36:37 GMT, "Barry Leek" <[email hidden]> wrote: > >>I agree, there's things to pick. 4 years is a bloody long time. My only >>complaint was that JC was claiming things were not possible that ARE. > >Who's "JC" anyway? :-) Jeoff Crammond! Jandre

Good come back. [email hidden] wrote:

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > On Sat, 29 Jul 2000 14:04:30 -0500, Pat Dotson > <[email hidden]> thus spoke: > > >I never meant to imply that you were. Again, > >maybe reading comprehension classes would be > >in order for you. > > And sarcasm is lost on you. > -- > Nos

I never meant to imply that you were. Again, maybe reading comprehension classes would be in order for you. [email hidden] wrote:

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > On Sat, 29 Jul 2000 12:13:01 -0500, Pat Dotson > <[email hidden]> thus spoke: > > >You need it more than I do, pal. > > I ain't your pal chuzzlenut. > -- > Nos

[email hidden] wrote:

Quoted text (7 lines)

> <[email hidden]> thus spoke: > >What part of that don't you understand? > > Did you not read the interview with Hyperstim (it's linked through > that interview with WSC)? They never said FFB has no > place in their future. They just don't feel it is quite ready for > prime time. Maybe in a year or so.

I made it very clear that my reply was to John Crooke's comments. I have no problem with anything Steven Teear said. Maybe you didn't pick up on that? I'm not surprised. You are apparently the one who cannot comprehend that which he reads. In the Teehar interview you mention, he says it will be 18 months to two years before they might introduce force feedback. Not "maybe in a year or so". Where did you get that? > It's obvious that you are the one > who reads negative things out of constructive criticism. Tell me what is constructive about: F1F: Well for argument's sake, what sim do you feel has the best force feedback? JC: None of them or: CW: We're going to give it a go. But we've got every force feedback wheel and � [quickly glances at John] JC: [dirty look at Chris] I take the "dirty look" to indicate Crooke's utter contempt for every force feedback wheel in existence. Crooke has made the same sort of negative comments here in R.A.S., along with Trevor from TSW. If these guys can't deliver FF that suits their standards, then fine, but they should stop insulting everyone's intelligence by saying that current force feedback technology is worthless. > Take a > reading comprehension course. > -- > Nos You need it more than I do, pal. -- Pat Dotson

[email hidden] wrote: > <[email hidden]> thus spoke: > > >What part of that don't you understand? > > P.S.S. Here's somme more from that article. Perhaps you would like to > post an apology now for your rude comment above. You can tell me I need a class, but I am the rude one? You are funny. I think perhaps that I have nothing to apologize for. Everything that you included later in this post is subjective opinion. As I said before, my opinion is that TSW, ECCI, and Hyperstim are behaving in a self- serving fashion when they deride other FF wheels, or degrade current FF technology. My comments were directed at John Crooke. Are you starting to understand? -- Pat Dotson > I feel the force feedback topic will continue to be debated for quite > some time. I have done quite a bit of research into this very topic > before embarking on this review and the results surprisingly have been > on par with my own personal views on this FF topic. The first question > I asked to both owners of ECCI and TSW was, why force feedback devices > are not incorporated into their controllers? BOTH, owners responded > quickly and decisively by stating that, �current force feedback > designs are not accurate enough to be incorporated into their units.� > ECCI went on to say, �FF does nothing to improve lap times.� In > talking with a few (IMO) top NASCAR sim racers, they have repeatedly > stated �they do not need FF wheels to be competitive and what is > needed most, is the most precise wheel your budget can afford.� I have > also talked with a realistic racing simulation developer who conveyed > this, �no FF devices have come close in representing or giving precise > feedback of realistic car physics modeling in smooth pavement racing > applications.�

[email hidden] wrote:

Quoted text (9 lines)

> <[email hidden]> thus spoke: > > >He's referring to John Crooke's anti-force feedback > >comments? I find them laughable. He has a vested > >interest in running FF into the ground, namely, that > >Hyperstim doesn't have a FF option available. > > I believe David Kaemer doesn't think too much of FFB in it's present > form either. Do you find that laughable too?

DK doesn't say FF is worthless, the way Crooke does. DK has created the best PC based FF available today. DK is not in the PC steering wheel business. John Crooke is basically saying that FF is worthless, when it obviously is worthwhile. The fact that he has a financial stake in the success or failure of force feedback makes his comments laughable to anyone who finds current FF useful. What part of that don't you understand? -- Pat Dotson

On Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:28:10 GMT, [email hidden] (Andre Warringa) wrote:

Quoted text (8 lines)

>On Fri, 28 Jul 2000 10:39:40 +0200, Jan Loebzien <[email hidden]> >wrote: >>Who's "JC" anyway? :-) > >Jeoff Crammond! > >Jandre

Ahh jes, I see. Jan :-)

In article <01bff85e$cf579120$5bf10fd2@predator>, "Barry Leek" <[email hidden]> wrote: > I agree, there's things to pick. 4 years is a bloody long time. Myonly > complaint was that JC was claiming things were not possible that ARE.Who > knows, the West Bros probably used JC's immaculate Hyperstim! > > Anyway, I am all for a GPL driven modern day F1 sim. Until then,though I'm > persevering with GP3 (and enjoying it). I would imagine that a GPL-based modern F1 sim would probably feel quite a bit like F12K -- it may be a hardware hog, but I think that way too many people have overlooked this gem (probably because it IS such a hardware hog). For hot-lapping, though, F12K feels a LOT like GPL, which speaks well for what ISI has done. Just wait until they hit us with F12001. -- JB Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

In article <8ltn86$mqi$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] wrote: > I would imagine that a GPL-based modern F1 sim would probably feel > quite a bit like F12K -- it may be a hardware hog, but I think thatway too many people have overlooked this gem (probably because it IS such a hardware hog). For hot-lapping, though, F12K feels a LOT like GPL, which speaks well for what ISI has done. Just wait until they hit us with F12001.-- JB > I have to agree. I think ISI/EA Sports are breathing a lot easier now that they've seen what Hasbro/Crammond have come up with. I hardly think they look at GP3 and say, 'oh god they've really raised the bar to a new level!' :-) ISI is probably gnashing their teeth that EA didnt give them another two months to sort the game out a little better. I still dont trust EA any further than I can throw em' but its at least obvious now that they are right there in the hunt for having the best F1 game on the market with F12001. In fact it should be a piece of cake. MR http://blitzsports.com/racing/F12000 Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

On Fri, 28 Jul 2000 16:39:49 -0500, Pat Dotson <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >He's referring to John Crooke's anti-force feedback >comments? I find them laughable. He has a vested >interest in running FF into the ground, namely, that >Hyperstim doesn't have a FF option available. I believe David Kaemer doesn't think too much of FFB in it's present form either. Do you find that laughable too? -- Nos

On Sat, 29 Jul 2000 04:40:38 GMT, [email hidden] thus spoke:

Quoted text (8 lines)

>I would imagine that a GPL-based modern F1 sim would probably feel >quite a bit like F12K -- it may be a hardware hog, but I think that way >too many people have overlooked this gem (probably because it IS such a >hardware hog). For hot-lapping, though, F12K feels a LOT like GPL, >which speaks well for what ISI has done. Just wait until they hit us >with F12001. > >-- JB

Preach on brother. -- Nos

On Fri, 28 Jul 2000 16:39:49 -0500, Pat Dotson I believe David Kaemer doesn't think too much of FFB in it's present form either. Do you find that laughable too? -- Nos

Preach on brother. -- Nos

On Sat, 29 Jul 2000 09:26:46 -0500, Pat Dotson Did you not read the interview with Hyperstim (it's linked through that interview with WSC)? They never said FFB has no place in their future. They just don't feel it is quite ready for prime time. Maybe in a year or so. It's obvious that you are the one who reads negative things out of constructive criticism. Take a reading comprehension course. -- Nos

On Sat, 29 Jul 2000 09:26:46 -0500, Pat Dotson P.S.S. Here's somme more from that article. Perhaps you would like to post an apology now for your rude comment above. I feel the force feedback topic will continue to be debated for quite some time. I have done quite a bit of research into this very topic before embarking on this review and the results surprisingly have been on par with my own personal views on this FF topic. The first question I asked to both owners of ECCI and TSW was, why force feedback devices are not incorporated into their controllers? BOTH, owners responded quickly and decisively by stating that, current force feedback designs are not accurate enough to be incorporated into their units. ECCI went on to say, FF does nothing to improve lap times. In talking with a few (IMO) top NASCAR sim racers, they have repeatedly stated they do not need FF wheels to be competitive and what is needed most, is the most precise wheel your budget can afford. I have also talked with a realistic racing simulation developer who conveyed this, no FF devices have come close in representing or giving precise feedback of realistic car physics modeling in smooth pavement racing applications. -- Nos

On Sat, 29 Jul 2000 12:13:01 -0500, Pat Dotson I ain't your pal chuzzlenut. -- Nos

On Sat, 29 Jul 2000 14:04:30 -0500, Pat Dotson And sarcasm is lost on you. -- Nos

Good come back.

Quoted text (10 lines)

> On Sat, 29 Jul 2000 14:04:30 -0500, Pat Dotson > >I never meant to imply that you were. Again, > >maybe reading comprehension classes would be > >in order for you. > And sarcasm is lost on you. > -- > Nos

On Sat, 29 Jul 2000 09:26:46 -0500, Pat Dotson <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >What part of that don't you understand? Did you not read the interview with Hyperstim (it's linked through that interview with WSC)? They never said FFB has no place in their future. They just don't feel it is quite ready for prime time. Maybe in a year or so. It's obvious that you are the one who reads negative things out of constructive criticism. Take a reading comprehension course. -- Nos

P.S. Here is a small excerpt from the Simhq wheel shootout. Just because you think FFB is the cats ass doesn't mean it does not have problems. http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/hardware/features/wheels/ The actual definition of a PRECISE wheel is, and always will be, a VERY subjective issue based on what is comfortable for the sim racer. Since SimHQ is all about realistic simulations, I have tried to give realistic racing feedback in regards to the wheels presented here. In the area of force feedback (FF), the same subjective issues apply in some instances. There are still some very strong shortcomings of incorporating present FF designs into precision driving wheels while negotiating realistic smooth course racing circuits and the sometimes hindrance of these systems. More on this FF subject a bit later in the review. -- Nos

On Sat, 29 Jul 2000 09:26:46 -0500, Pat Dotson <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >What part of that don't you understand? > >-- >Pat Dotson P.S.S. Here's somme more from that article. Perhaps you would like to post an apology now for your rude comment above. I feel the force feedback topic will continue to be debated for quite some time. I have done quite a bit of research into this very topic before embarking on this review and the results surprisingly have been on par with my own personal views on this FF topic. The first question I asked to both owners of ECCI and TSW was, why force feedback devices are not incorporated into their controllers? BOTH, owners responded quickly and decisively by stating that, �current force feedback designs are not accurate enough to be incorporated into their units.� ECCI went on to say, �FF does nothing to improve lap times.� In talking with a few (IMO) top NASCAR sim racers, they have repeatedly stated �they do not need FF wheels to be competitive and what is needed most, is the most precise wheel your budget can afford.� I have also talked with a realistic racing simulation developer who conveyed this, �no FF devices have come close in representing or giving precise feedback of realistic car physics modeling in smooth pavement racing applications.� -- Nos

On Sat, 29 Jul 2000 12:13:01 -0500, Pat Dotson <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >You need it more than I do, pal. I ain't your pal chuzzlenut. -- Nos

On Sat, 29 Jul 2000 14:04:30 -0500, Pat Dotson <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >I never meant to imply that you were. Again, >maybe reading comprehension classes would be >in order for you. And sarcasm is lost on you. -- Nos

On Sat, 29 Jul 2000 16:52:25 -0500, Pat Dotson <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >Good come back. What? No nasty comment? I'm dissapointed. :-) -- Nos

On Sat, 29 Jul 2000 16:52:25 -0500, Pat Dotson What? No *** comment? I'm dissapointed. :-) -- Nos