GT4 - A First Look

Sony's Gran Turismo 4 - A First Look It's finally out! Was it worth the wait? Yes! Is it better than GT3? Yes! Are Sony's sachems mugwumps for having squidded out on online play? You betcha! In truth, it's not that much different from GT3...which is to say, it's still the best console racer...ever...and can still give all but the best PC sims a run for their money. It's just bigger: 500 (or whatever) cars, a seemingly inexhaustable supply of tracks (altho only a handful of real-world tracks, albeit including a totally believable Nordschleife), a sound track that a lot of MP3 players would die for, and better graphics than anything powered by a dinky little CPU like the PS3's has any right to be. GT4 has a credible--if not totally convincing--physics model (and a gorgeous photorealistic look; when you stomp on the brakes hard, for example, the discs glow red). Driving most of GT4's stable of exotic cars--including a perfectly rendered Ford GT40, AC Cobra, Bentley Speed 8, Mazda 787B, McLaren F1 GT, Chaparral 2J, Cizeta V16, Pagani Zonda C12, Gillet Vertigo (my favorite car in GTR), Jaguar XJR9 (my favorite car from N2003's GTP mod), Mercedes CLK, Toyota GT1, and Jay Leno's "Tank" car--feel almost like driving cars in the real world...and subtle enough that you can clearly feel the difference between front-, rear-, and 4-wheel drive. GT4's greatest strength, however, is in its gameplay. It hooks you right away with how much fun it is in the Arcade mode to jump in a little, er, shoe box and go blasting around like your butt's on fire, then entices you with the risks and rewards, carrots and sticks of the Gran Turismo (full-on simulation mode), where you work your way up the ladder from a lowly Amuse Carbon (I kid you not) to a one-of-a-kind Le Mans GT prototype. What GT4's developers have nailed better than anybody else--PC or console--is that elusive quality known as "play balance." That is, it's easy enough to suck you in, challenging enough to get you motivated, and rewarding enough to keep you coming back for more. The AI is still clueless...or is it? I think Kaz (Yamauchi, the "godfather of the Gran Turismo franchise) and his krew are making your opponents down n' dirty on purpose. In my first few entry-level races, I saw some big bully in a Hemi-powered Dodge pickup deliberately sideswiping the little Toyota Voltz, Daihatsu Midget, Hyundai Clix, Nissan Micra, and Suzuki Cappucino rice burners. Naughty. There are improvements over GT3, some significant (you can output to HDTV--480p or 1080i--and there's support for Dolby Pro Logic II surround sound) and some not (you can take shapshots during replays...and what? Submit them to your local newspaper?). I siezed the opportunity to try out Logitech's new-ish Driving Force Pro wheel,which was allegedly developed specifically for GT4 (a USB device, it also works fine with PCs). It's a little gritty (gears, not wires & pulleys) and the rim is a little thin, but I was able to place the cars accurately and the pedals worked well. Sony has sold 38 million copies of the first 3 iterations of Gran Turismo (which, if it was a movie series would be the most successful of all time), and GT4 looks to keep the ball rolling...all the way to the bank. But it ain't no GPL. --Steve Smith

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 04:45:13 GMT, "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote: >.and can still give all but the best PC >sims a run for their money. Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha....'nuff said.

In article <t3yTd.35204$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > > Sony's Gran Turismo 4 - A First Look > > It's finally out! Care to clarify that - it's not out over here yet (UK). (-: Release date over here is March 9th according to Amazon. -- AG Remove removes from address to remove anti-spam measures. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Alan Gauton E-Mail agauton @ postmaster.co.uk Never for me the lowered banner, never the last endeavour! (Damon Hill - 16th June 1999)

Jeez, I thought you guys had it already. How abt. GTR? "Alan Gauton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (20 lines)

> In article <t3yTd.35204$[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > > > > Sony's Gran Turismo 4 - A First Look > > > > It's finally out! > > Care to clarify that - it's not out over here yet (UK). (-: > > Release date over here is March 9th according to Amazon. > > -- > AG > > Remove removes from address to remove anti-spam measures. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Alan Gauton E-Mail agauton @ postmaster.co.uk > > Never for me the lowered banner, never the last endeavour! > (Damon Hill - 16th June 1999)

Steve Smith wrote: > Sony's Gran Turismo 4 - A First Look > The AI is still clueless...or is it? I think Kaz (Yamauchi, the"godfather > of the Gran Turismo franchise) and his krew are making your opponentsdown > n' dirty on purpose. In my first few entry-level races, I saw somebig > bully in a Hemi-powered Dodge pickup deliberately sideswiping thelittle > Toyota Voltz, Daihatsu Midget, Hyundai Clix, Nissan Micra, and Suzuki > Cappucino rice burners. Naughty. I must have a bad copy of the game because mine has NO AI. Just like GT, GT2, GT3, GT4 Prologue and GT4. There is no AI. Zero, zip, nada. This is the, what, the third time that Yamauchi has reneged on his promise to add AI to the GT series? This game can't hold a candle to Test Drive Lemans or Ferrari F355 as far as AI goes. And those games are Dreamcast titles and 4. Of course, those games didn't feature that fancy photo mode that allows you to photograph your vehicles in cities all over the world. AI? We don't need no stinking AI. It's worthless photo's that we need. I love the driving model of GT4. It's light years ahead of GT3 and actually forces you to use your breaks efficiently on the track. Unless there's a car next to you, then you can simply use them to make the corner. Yamauchi may be a car fanatic, but he's obviously never been to any type of automobile race. Yes, Mr. Yamauchi there is a racing line. And yes you want to stick to it as much as possible. But you see that car to the left and right of you? You can't plow the f*ck into it! That's not how things work in real life. You would think with as many copies that GT has sold, that Polyphony would be able to dip into the budget and purchase a few conditional logic statetements for their developers. How much can an "if", "if-else", "switch", or a "while" loop cost? Bring on Enthusia Racing, maybe we'll finally get working AI implemented on the PS2.

God lord. Why can't I write a comprehensible reply? Another post with forgotten sentences, spelling errors, bad grammar. Somebody buy me an education! :-)

In article <3QDTd.38500$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > Jeez, I thought you guys had it already. How abt. GTR? Game (UK replacement for EB) have it listed for March 11th. -- AG Remove removes from address to remove anti-spam measures. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Alan Gauton E-Mail agauton @ postmaster.co.uk Never for me the lowered banner, never the last endeavour! (Damon Hill - 16th June 1999)

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > God lord. Why can't I write a comprehensible reply? Another post > with forgotten sentences, spelling errors, bad grammar. Somebody buy > me an education! :-) > Read OK for me... Not really too fussed about the AI in GT4 funnily enough (perhaps I'm the target audience!) as I do a lot of test miles in GT3. Basically I spend hours trying to shave a few tenths off a particular track record. And yes, I'm aware how sad that makes me sound ;o) But then that might be because I know exactly how the race will pan out if I race the AI, based solely on the spec of the cars (although occasionally I'm sure there're tuned skylines lurking around). Guess I'm saying there's no "random" element to the AI... Andy

In article <cvnbdd$q2n$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted text (13 lines)

> Read OK for me... > > Not really too fussed about the AI in GT4 funnily enough (perhaps I'm the > target audience!) as I do a lot of test miles in GT3. Basically I spend > hours trying to shave a few tenths off a particular track record. > And yes, I'm aware how sad that makes me sound ;o) > > But then that might be because I know exactly how the race will pan out if I > race the AI, based solely on the spec of the cars (although occasionally I'm > sure there're tuned skylines lurking around). > Guess I'm saying there's no "random" element to the AI... > > Andy

I'm not that impressed with GT4. I got it Wednesday and I've been playing it a bit but I'm not totally engrossed like I was with GT3 (I guess the newness got me,) and PGR2 on the Xbox. Yes GT4 is pretty and the physics are pretty good but it's just missing something. Maybe I was expecting too much. I'm looking forward to Enthusia and Forza Motorsport. I hope I'm not disappointed again. -- _________________________ Todd Walker http://www.toddwalker.net _________________________

How much fun is it with a regular game pad?

I agree with your assessment. GT4 is better in almost every regard compared to GT3, but I'm just not feeling it. It will be interesting to see how Forza and Enthusia stack up. Although I'm not buying another wheel, so Forza will be gamepad only for me. Does anyone else find it odd that Microsoft will be releasiing Forza within days of making their XBox2 announcement? That's got to hurt sales for the game and probably kill sales for that 'ForceShock" wheel that was 'developed' for Forza. I'm surely not sinking $150 into a wheel that's not real FF for a console that has another 6 months of life in it.

In article <K9HTd.46496$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > How much fun is it with a regular game pad? It SUCKS. The left thumbstick (steering) is WAY too sensitive. If I liked the game more I'd buy a wheel but it's not worth dishing out the cash. I'll buy an Xbox wheel if Forza is worth it. -- _________________________ Todd Walker http://www.toddwalker.net _________________________

Euthanasia racing...yes!!! <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (41 lines)

> > Steve Smith wrote: > > Sony's Gran Turismo 4 - A First Look > > > The AI is still clueless...or is it? I think Kaz (Yamauchi, the > "godfather > > of the Gran Turismo franchise) and his krew are making your opponents > down > > n' dirty on purpose. In my first few entry-level races, I saw some > big > > bully in a Hemi-powered Dodge pickup deliberately sideswiping the > little > > Toyota Voltz, Daihatsu Midget, Hyundai Clix, Nissan Micra, and Suzuki > > Cappucino rice burners. Naughty. > > I must have a bad copy of the game because mine has NO AI. Just like > GT, GT2, GT3, GT4 Prologue and GT4. There is no AI. Zero, zip, nada. > This is the, what, the third time that Yamauchi has reneged on his > promise to add AI to the GT series? This game can't hold a candle to > Test Drive Lemans or Ferrari F355 as far as AI goes. And those games > are Dreamcast titles and 4. Of course, those games didn't feature that > fancy photo mode that allows you to photograph your vehicles in cities > all over the world. AI? We don't need no stinking AI. It's worthless > photo's that we need. I love the driving model of GT4. It's light > years ahead of GT3 and actually forces you to use your breaks > efficiently on the track. Unless there's a car next to you, then you > can simply use them to make the corner. > > Yamauchi may be a car fanatic, but he's obviously never been to any > type of automobile race. Yes, Mr. Yamauchi there is a racing line. > And yes you want to stick to it as much as possible. But you see that > car to the left and right of you? You can't plow the f*ck into it! > That's not how things work in real life. You would think with as many > copies that GT has sold, that Polyphony would be able to dip into the > budget and purchase a few conditional logic statetements for their > developers. How much can an "if", "if-else", "switch", or a "while" > loop cost? > > Bring on Enthusia Racing, maybe we'll finally get working AI > implemented on the PS2. >

Real racers don't use gamepads. (P.S. I'm not a real racer...but I play one on the Internet.) "John Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:K9HTd.46496$[email hidden]... > How much fun is it with a regular game pad? > >

Joke's on you. There is no decent wheel for the Xbox...and won't be until the Xbox 360 (aka II) 'cuz MS never bothered to implement FF, so no decent wheel mfr. will build a decent wheel for it, FF or not. This isn't speculation, that's what a major wheel manufacturer told me. "Todd Walker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (13 lines)

> In article <K9HTd.46496$[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > > How much fun is it with a regular game pad? > > It SUCKS. The left thumbstick (steering) is WAY too sensitive. If I > liked the game more I'd buy a wheel but it's not worth dishing out the > cash. I'll buy an Xbox wheel if Forza is worth it. > > -- > _________________________ > Todd Walker > http://www.toddwalker.net > _________________________

Steve Smith wrote: > But it ain't no GPL. That is a good thing considering GPL is well past its used by date.

The Forza demo is extremely impressive except that the tracks are devoid of bumps. Maybe it's unfair to compare it to something like GTR which has probably got the best track surfaces ever in sim. Other than that, it's very hard to fault the physics in Forza. It runs at half the frame rate of GT3/4 though which is pretty lame. I loved how realistic GT3 looked but the gameplay never really excited me much. I preferred games like F355 Challenge, Vanishing Point, Project Gotham etc where the cars were a real handful to drive and you could develop some serious skills. I haven't played GT4 yet but it'll be cool if it's as challenging as those games.

I just picked this up the other day, and it is quite an achievement. As we all know, graphics are not everything, but when you have the exceptional physics (notably the road feel--very well done) and are also fortunate enough to be able to run in 1980x1080i mode, it really makes a huge impact. I have no idea how the PS2 can do what it is doing with GT4, but I am glad it is doing it :) I do certainly miss damage, and even a rudimentary cockpit would have been nice--even if it would mean giving up an AI car for processing power, I find it sometimes difficult to judge the virtual dimensions of my car. Plus, my Lister looks exactly like that mini van on the inside :) But, there are so many items displayed in the 'front ahead view (no idea what to call it)' that you do get a sense of being in something. I also did a 2 lap B-Spec event at the Nurburgring (I LOVE THE CHALK MARKS!!) coaching the Lister Storm to a 3rd place finish--watching that race unfold was very enjoyable, and is a nice addtion for when you want to check out some racing action, but do not feel like driving :) I was very happy with GT3, and even happier with GT4, but I am a bit disappointed as I had heard early owners of the game had a 200+ page document of some sort jammed into the box, but that may have been the Japanese version only. I actually prefer the XBOX for most of my console gaming needs, but when it comes to driving, the PS2 has no equal. I am very disappointed in the lack of FFB with XBOX, and of the two wheels I so far have tried--the Pelican EVO GT, and the MadCatz something or other were both very lacking--The madcatz reminded me of the old Thrustmaster T1....without the quality part. The EVO is a simple wheel that uses friction to simulate the road. Both wheels when coupled with the XBOX provide some of the worst driving experience around. It's not so much the game--but the interface of human and game is just not so well done on the XBOX. And it's a shame really--I really like PGR2, IndyCar 2005, CMR05, Chase for the Cup, Thunder 2004, and Rallisport challenge--but I am getting better 'response' using the gamepad, and that just isn't easy for me to drive that way. I really need to quit buying those damn XBOX driving games :) I have not tried the Logitech NASCAR wheel yet, and don't think I will unless I hear some raving reviews on it for the XBOX.

On the third page of this thread, I have some pics I took of my television with GT4 in the High Def mode. The menus are all 480i, but it autoswitches to the HD mode when you hit the track. Beautiful to say the least. Please ignore all my GIANT LETTER posts--I was giving my buddy a hard time because his wife would not let him have it until his birthday :) http://www.ctd-racing.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1680&page=1&pp=30

Good grief--I forgot--I am using the Driving Force Pro steering wheel over here, and it is a great console wheel--a heck of a lot better than many other (starts with m, ends with SOFT) wheels for PC racing, and can also be used on the PC.

In article <[email hidden]>, "Smokin_Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I just picked this up the other day, and it is quite an achievement... >I really need to quit buying those damn XBOX driving games :) I have >not tried the Logitech NASCAR wheel yet, and don't think I will unless >I hear some raving reviews on it for the XBOX. I do really like GT4. But I'm also disappointed with it. It has all been said before, so no need to rehash. Just wanted to say: don't give up on the XBOX, not with Forza around the corner! (well, if you consider 2-3 months, plus inevitable additional delays to be "real soon now")

Dave, I am looking forward to Forza....but the steering control issue is a big letdown for me and the XBOX so far. The Rally sims are the best to drive as 'random steering inputs' sometimes get the job done in Rally racing :) Forza certainly seems to have some great potential, I have been reading much about it...but I will definitely be trying that one out before I buy it. If they could just somehow come up with more convincing steering control and feedback, it would be much better.

Understood, Bob. Some just gotta have FF wheels. Me, I've tried wheels (FF and not) a number of times and just never liked them. To this day, I use a stick for PC sims and the stock controllers for the XBOX and PS2. Well, till today. I decided to give my old Logitech Driving Force another try before I get too used to the DS2 in GT4. And for some reason, I'm more comfortable with it this time. I'm still not convinced that FF is that much more a realistic experience... What are all these bangings around when I'm on a straightaway? If I let go of the wheel, it'll go wildly off the road in a couple of seconds. That isn't my real world driving experience. And I don't really feel the effort lighten up until I'm way out of control. Shouldn't the wheel lighten when I just start sliding? I need a primer in what proper FF is and how to set it up appropriately (not that you have many setup FF options in GT4).

Dave, Not sure about your FFB going all over the road, I havent noticed that one before... I will do some digging around in the GT4 game with my wheel--what car were you driving when that happened? I imagine one of the controller setup options is dedicated to this particular wheel....? I saw the DFP at a quick glance, and even more when scrolling the options page down, maybe this wheel has a special setup...?? Just guessing here. Actually, I don't mind a non-FFB wheel/sim at all--The T1 for the PC was a great wheel. If the XBOX had such a wheel (and maybe the Logitech is it), then it would be different. But the Madcatz, literally, felt like a 5 dollar toy. The EVO is better, but adjusting the sensitivity is time consuming, to say the least, and every game so far requires a different amount of adjustment here. And the way it models 'road friction' is not smooth, or consistent. The type of feel a decent return spring would give is just not there, for example.

Lots... For someone who started on PC sims and bought a PS2 just to play GT3, I've found the game pad amazingly good for driving...once I discovered the gas and brake buttons were pressure sensitive. It takes some practice but often I'm smoother in the replays than the AI. Anyone know if a Logitech Momo FF for PC will work on a PS2? John Smith wrote: > How much fun is it with a regular game pad? > >

Correction. Make that the Momo Racing wheel. Anyone know if it's compatible with the PS2? MartyU wrote:

Quoted text (15 lines)

> Lots... > > For someone who started on PC sims and bought a PS2 just to play GT3, > I've found the game pad amazingly good for driving...once I discovered > the gas and brake buttons were pressure sensitive. > > It takes some practice but often I'm smoother in the replays than the AI. > > Anyone know if a Logitech Momo FF for PC will work on a PS2? > > > John Smith wrote: > >> How much fun is it with a regular game pad? >>

This may be what you're looking for on the Xbox. I've no idea of quality, etc. but it looks like the first Xbox wheel to do real force feedback (rather than just vibrate). Of course, now that one does it they all will ... :) -- Andre ---------------------------------------- "Smokin_Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Good grief--I forgot--I am using the Driving Force Pro steering wheel > over here, and it is a great console wheel--a heck of a lot better than > many other (starts with m, ends with SOFT) wheels for PC racing, and > can also be used on the PC. >

In article <[email hidden]>, "Smokin_Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Dave, > >Not sure about your FFB going all over the road, I havent noticed that >one before... I will do some digging around in the GT4 game with my >wheel--what car were you driving when that happened? I think it is either just trying to create some self-centering, or it is simulating bumps in the road? It seems worse at higher speeds, so maybe it is the latter. Basically, if it gets a few degrees off-center, there's a strong kick to re-center. If I'm not holding on firmly, it'll over-correct, kick harder back, then again, then I'd be off the road. In reality, this would only be the case if I let go of the wheel since after a kick or two, I'm grabbing tight. It just feels way overdone, but not a big deal. I'll experiment more. Thanks for the feedback.

>"Smokin_Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote > I have no idea how the PS2 can do what it is doing with GT4 low poly count and texture resolution in everything except the cars. Exceptional physics... hmm only for it's balance of arcade and realism. Nothing more. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

2/27/05 - $37.99 at COMPUSA <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Steve Smith wrote: > >> But it ain't no GPL. > > That is a good thing considering GPL is well past its used by date. >

Virtually all PC wheels w. USB connectors will work on the PS2...to some degree. The compatibility is in the s/w, not the h/w. The most compatible is GT3/GT4. Some buttons don't have the desired effect, you need to keep a PS2 gamepad plugged into the second port. I have had a TM Ferrari wheel (the same one sold in Europe as a NASCAR wheel - lol!) and it worked great w. GT3; not so good w. other PS2 titles like Ferrari F355 Challenge, GP Challenge, WRC, and NfS:HP2. I got a Logi DFP for GT4 and it works great, so I'm hopeful it will also work well w. the other PS2 titles (haven't played anything else yet - too busy trying to accumulate enough simoleans to buy a Mazda 787B), as well as get the job done w. PC titles like GTR, GTP, rFactor, and my old fav, Mobil 1 Rally Championship. "MartyU" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:42210c90$0$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (13 lines)

> Correction. > > Make that the Momo Racing wheel. Anyone know if it's compatible with the > PS2? > > MartyU wrote: > > Lots... > > > > For someone who started on PC sims and bought a PS2 just to play GT3, > > I've found the game pad amazingly good for driving...once I discovered > > the gas and brake buttons were pressure sensitive. > > > > It takes some practice but often I'm smoother in the replays than the

AI.

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > > > Anyone know if a Logitech Momo FF for PC will work on a PS2? > > > > > > John Smith wrote: > > > >> How much fun is it with a regular game pad? > >>

I know what you mean, Smokin'. I'm supposed to be writing a review for Car and Driver of GT4 v. Forza (if it's ever released), and I thought Sony would have it in the bag w. GT4...until they dropped multiplayer. So GT4's lacking online play and the Xbox is lacking FF (which is why there are ZERO decent Xbox wheels). Sony has promised TCP/IP support...later, but it's getting pretty close to time for the PS3, and the rumor mill says the Xbox 360 (aka Xbox 2) will have FF support, but so far nobody's got a complete feature set. Bummah! Don't get the Logitech NASCAR wheel for the Xbox. It has abt. 4 inches of free play at the center. Useless for driving...unless you drive like my 10-year-old daughter, who proceeds down the road in a series of sickening side-to-side swerves. If you still want it, I'll give you mine. Driving games aside, tho, yer right: the Xbox is cleaning the PS2's clock w. console games like Halo 2. "Smokin_Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (42 lines)

> I just picked this up the other day, and it is quite an achievement. > As we all know, graphics are not everything, but when you have the > exceptional physics (notably the road feel--very well done) and are > also fortunate enough to be able to run in 1980x1080i mode, it really > makes a huge impact. I have no idea how the PS2 can do what it is > doing with GT4, but I am glad it is doing it :) > > I do certainly miss damage, and even a rudimentary cockpit would have > been nice--even if it would mean giving up an AI car for processing > power, I find it sometimes difficult to judge the virtual dimensions of > my car. Plus, my Lister looks exactly like that mini van on the inside > :) But, there are so many items displayed in the 'front ahead view (no > idea what to call it)' that you do get a sense of being in something. > > I also did a 2 lap B-Spec event at the Nurburgring (I LOVE THE CHALK > MARKS!!) coaching the Lister Storm to a 3rd place finish--watching that > race unfold was very enjoyable, and is a nice addtion for when you want > to check out some racing action, but do not feel like driving :) > > I was very happy with GT3, and even happier with GT4, but I am a bit > disappointed as I had heard early owners of the game had a 200+ page > document of some sort jammed into the box, but that may have been the > Japanese version only. > > I actually prefer the XBOX for most of my console gaming needs, but > when it comes to driving, the PS2 has no equal. I am very disappointed > in the lack of FFB with XBOX, and of the two wheels I so far have > tried--the Pelican EVO GT, and the MadCatz something or other were both > very lacking--The madcatz reminded me of the old Thrustmaster > T1....without the quality part. The EVO is a simple wheel that uses > friction to simulate the road. Both wheels when coupled with the XBOX > provide some of the worst driving experience around. It's not so much > the game--but the interface of human and game is just not so well done > on the XBOX. And it's a shame really--I really like PGR2, IndyCar > 2005, CMR05, Chase for the Cup, Thunder 2004, and Rallisport > challenge--but I am getting better 'response' using the gamepad, and > that just isn't easy for me to drive that way. > > I really need to quit buying those damn XBOX driving games :) I have > not tried the Logitech NASCAR wheel yet, and don't think I will unless > I hear some raving reviews on it for the XBOX. >

Steve, Thanks for the heads up on the Logitech/XBOX deal Steve. I think I will be sticking to the PS2 and the DFP for now :) Took the Lister (heavily modified) around the Ring a couple times today using the wheel, and it sure does get exciting at about 190 MPH...great stuff!!

Great review Steve, very insightful. I agree on all counts. The play balance especially as you say is just soooooo addictive. Joe62

"John Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote: >How much fun is it with a regular game pad? Pretty good actually, it plays surprisingly well given the short range of PS2 analog sticks. Joe62

Is there a gamepad available for the PS2 with good analogue triggers like the Xbox & Dreamcast pads?

"Steve Simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Is there a gamepad available for the PS2 with good analogue triggers like >the Xbox & Dreamcast pads? Not that I know of. Please let me know if I'm wrong, I'd die for one! :-( It is truly the worst thing about the PS2 controller (not just the lack of analog triggers, but the fact that the analog sticks aren't that high quality either). Joe62

"Steve Simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Is there a gamepad available for the PS2 with good analogue triggers like >the Xbox & Dreamcast pads? Just found one actually: http://gear.ign.com/articles/561/561506p1.html?fromint=1 No idea how good it is but the review sounds allright. It has it's own configurability options (in case a game doesn't support it directly) including a memory chip to remember your settings. If there are any in local stores I'm picking one up today solely for playing GT4. I'll let you know how it plays. Joe62

> No idea how good it is but the review sounds allright. It has it's own > configurability options (in case a game doesn't support it directly) > including a memory chip to remember your settings. > > If there are any in local stores I'm picking one up today solely for > playing GT4. I'll let you know how it plays. Thanks, let us know how it goes. If it's any good I might just buy GT4.

What do you have against the DFP? It works like a champ w. GT4, it works like a champ w. a PC, and it looks the part (i.e., adult, not arcade). "Joe62" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (17 lines)

> "Steve Simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Is there a gamepad available for the PS2 with good analogue triggers like > >the Xbox & Dreamcast pads? > > Just found one actually: > > http://gear.ign.com/articles/561/561506p1.html?fromint=1 > > No idea how good it is but the review sounds allright. It has it's own > configurability options (in case a game doesn't support it directly) > including a memory chip to remember your settings. > > If there are any in local stores I'm picking one up today solely for > playing GT4. I'll let you know how it plays. > > Joe62

On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 04:43:43 GMT, "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote: >What do you have against the DFP? It works like a champ w. GT4, it works >like a champ w. a PC, and it looks the part (i.e., adult, not arcade). Sorry Steve, you lost me. What's the "DFP"?

Driving Force Pro, the 2-1/2 turns lock-to-lock wheel that Logitech designed for GT4 (abt. $100 "street"). Great price, great performance (high sampling rate = excellent precision), iffy haptics (gears don't feel so smooth but will presumably wear in after a hundred hours or so). "Joe62" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (7 lines)

> On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 04:43:43 GMT, "Steve Smith" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >What do you have against the DFP? It works like a champ w. GT4, it works > >like a champ w. a PC, and it looks the part (i.e., adult, not arcade). > > Sorry Steve, you lost me. What's the "DFP"?

On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 22:37:43 GMT, "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Driving Force Pro... Right, thanks, that does sound pretty good ... except that me TV and PS2 is in the living room. I've had wheels in the past for my PC and I love them, because they fit on my desk and I'm sitting up straight in position to use the pedals. I can't think of any good way to have a wheel set up in front of my TV. Don't think the wife would go for a look like this: http://www.force-dynamics.com/video.shtml Seriously any suggestions for a good wheel setup in a living room setting are appreciated. In the meantime I have ordered the Thrustmaster analog-trigger controller, so I think that will be a big improvement, I'll report back here once I've given it a go...

Just don't do what I did tonight.. removed all the furniture from the living room, put the kitchen table in the middle of the room, moved my heavy officechair from upstairs to the livingroom, fastened my wheel to the kitchen table, started GT4, and then found out that GT4 doesn't support the Logitec Momo :( Andre On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 22:46:08 GMT, Joe62 <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (19 lines)

>On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 22:37:43 GMT, "Steve Smith" ><[email hidden]> wrote: > >>Driving Force Pro... > >Right, thanks, that does sound pretty good ... except that me TV and >PS2 is in the living room. I've had wheels in the past for my PC and I >love them, because they fit on my desk and I'm sitting up straight in >position to use the pedals. > >I can't think of any good way to have a wheel set up in front of my >TV. Don't think the wife would go for a look like this: > >http://www.force-dynamics.com/video.shtml > >Seriously any suggestions for a good wheel setup in a living room >setting are appreciated. In the meantime I have ordered the >Thrustmaster analog-trigger controller, so I think that will be a big >improvement, I'll report back here once I've given it a go...

That's FUNNY, Andre! (If it wasn't so sad....) P.S. The last time I tried it, GT3 supported the (U.S.) Logi Ferrari wheel. Not all the buttons worked, but the wheel & pedals did. "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (32 lines)

> Just don't do what I did tonight.. removed all the furniture from the > living room, put the kitchen table in the middle of the room, moved > my heavy officechair from upstairs to the livingroom, fastened my > wheel to the kitchen table, started GT4, and then found out that GT4 > doesn't support the Logitec Momo :( > > Andre > > > On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 22:46:08 GMT, Joe62 > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 22:37:43 GMT, "Steve Smith" > ><[email hidden]> wrote: > > > >>Driving Force Pro... > > > >Right, thanks, that does sound pretty good ... except that me TV and > >PS2 is in the living room. I've had wheels in the past for my PC and I > >love them, because they fit on my desk and I'm sitting up straight in > >position to use the pedals. > > > >I can't think of any good way to have a wheel set up in front of my > >TV. Don't think the wife would go for a look like this: > > > >http://www.force-dynamics.com/video.shtml > > > >Seriously any suggestions for a good wheel setup in a living room > >setting are appreciated. In the meantime I have ordered the > >Thrustmaster analog-trigger controller, so I think that will be a big > >improvement, I'll report back here once I've given it a go... >

On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 02:30:49 GMT, "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote: >That's FUNNY, Andre! (If it wasn't so sad....) > >P.S. The last time I tried it, GT3 supported the (U.S.) Logi Ferrari wheel. >Not all the buttons worked, but the wheel & pedals did. The Momo works perfect with GT3 (and RBR, Ferrari Challenge, GT4 simply does not support it. Evil rumours say they made a deal with Logitec to sell more of those plastic Driving Force wheels.. Btw, did you get your IB license yet? You get the ''Nike One'' concept car, which is major fun on the Ring :) Andre

No, I've been consumed w. other issues. The original idea was to do a comparison revu for Car and Driver magazine w. GT4 and MS's "answer," Forza Motorsport. I had thought GT4 would win hands down, but since Sony dropped multiplayer, I'm not so sure. Of course, Forza still isn't out, and we already know there won't be any decent wheels for it (Logi claims MS might not even support FF in the next Xbox), so I won't be able to finish the test for a few months, so it's on the back-burner for the nonce. "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 02:30:49 GMT, "Steve Smith" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >That's FUNNY, Andre! (If it wasn't so sad....) > > > >P.S. The last time I tried it, GT3 supported the (U.S.) Logi Ferrariwheel.

Quoted text (10 lines)

> >Not all the buttons worked, but the wheel & pedals did. > > The Momo works perfect with GT3 (and RBR, Ferrari Challenge, GT4 > simply does not support it. Evil rumours say they made a deal with > Logitec to sell more of those plastic Driving Force wheels.. > > Btw, did you get your IB license yet? You get the ''Nike One'' concept > car, which is major fun on the Ring :) > > Andre

On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:48:40 GMT, "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Motorsport. I had thought GT4 would win hands down, but since Sony dropped >multiplayer, I'm not so sure. Come on now. No one cares about console multuplayer but game reviewers and Microsoft. At MOST ten percent of console gamers are even connected. The idea that it's even important to a console game (outside of multiplayer-focuses exceptions like Halo 2) is nothing less than a myth invented by the gaming media. If you look at the business case, as a game developer, there is currently no justification for doing online for most games. The only error Sony made with GT4 was including online from the beginning.

Well, when Papy launched Hawaii, you could have said only 10% of computer gamers were online then too. A decade or so later, without the online community, there would be NO computer auto racing to speak of. But let's say yer right: only 10% of console gamers are online. That makes it about 25 million online players. Or let's say that only 10% of console racers are online. That puts the figure at about 10 million. That's nothing to sneeze at...and it's a market that will continue to grow. "Car guys" like the readers of Car and Driver, Road & Track etc., are, by and large, computer illiterate. They *might* be coaxed to try a racing game on a console (as opposed to a PC or even a Mac), but they'd rather compete against carbon-based intelligence, not silicon. (All this is based on well-known demo metrics.) Therefore, car guys are more likely to play console racing games if they can race against flesh & blood opponents. The holy grail or all racing games is to attract as many car guys as computer geeks, thus doubling the market. Sony and Microsoft each made 2 huge mistakes. Sony's was to include dial-up in their online game plan, which seriously limits what they can do online (maybe just as well: FPSs, flight sims and racing games don't work well on consoles, thanks to controller issues). Microsoft's was not to include FF in their psuedo-DirectX support, with the result that no wheel mfr. will bother to make anything more than a Mad Katz, entry-level controller for racing games. I know; I've interviewed them. The market is there. Sony/Polyphony has sold 38 million copies of Gran Turismo. At $50 a pop, that's $1,900,000,000 at retail. Compare that to Star Wars, Spider-Man, Shrek, Titanic, Gone With the Wind, whatever...and divide by the development cost. Now tell me Sony isn't interested in attracting 10% of that universe to online gaming. Or that Logitech wouldn't like to sell 10% of them $100 wheels. Q.E.D.? "Joe62" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:48:40 GMT, "Steve Smith" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Motorsport. I had thought GT4 would win hands down, but since Sonydropped

Quoted text (11 lines)

> >multiplayer, I'm not so sure. > > Come on now. No one cares about console multuplayer but game reviewers > and Microsoft. At MOST ten percent of console gamers are even > connected. The idea that it's even important to a console game > (outside of multiplayer-focuses exceptions like Halo 2) is nothing > less than a myth invented by the gaming media. > > If you look at the business case, as a game developer, there is > currently no justification for doing online for most games. The only > error Sony made with GT4 was including online from the beginning.

In article <CR%Xd.87278$[email hidden]>, "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote: [online gaming] >The market is there. Sony/Polyphony has sold 38 million copies of Gran >Turismo. At $50 a pop, that's $1,900,000,000 at retail. Compare that to >Star Wars, Spider-Man, Shrek, Titanic, Gone With the Wind, whatever...and >divide by the development cost. Now tell me Sony isn't interested in >attracting 10% of that universe to online gaming. Or that Logitech wouldn't >like to sell 10% of them $100 wheels. I'm not arguing with you. I too think they should have included on-line, though I happen to be an avid racer who hasn't bought into online. And even with it being the solution to the pathetic AI of GT4, I most probably still wouldn't. Still, I would think it would be a lucrative market. Just a note, even with 38M sales, I'd suspect that a good third to half of them are at best-seller prices, so perhaps an average sale price of $35-40 ea? Still nothing to sneeze at. This is big business. Is it true that GT is Polyphony's only product? And are they indeed 100% part of Sony?

On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 17:54:42 GMT, "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote: >That puts the figure at about 10 million. That's >nothing to sneeze at...and it's a market that will continue to grow. But when you take that analysis one step further, and delve into how many of that 10% will choose to buy online games vs. unconnected ones ... it really is a trivial dent in sales. Trust me, I've done the numbers again and again and there is no business case for a *developer* to support online (for a publisher, looking to the longterm gains, that's a different question).

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 16:32:06 GMT, Joe62 <[email hidden]> wrote: >Just found one actually: > >http://gear.ign.com/articles/561/561506p1.html?fromint=1 > >No idea how good it is but the review sounds allright. Well I'm afraid I have to report that I'm not too impressed. 1) Not enough travel on the triggers. Why they wouldn't just model them after a good design like the XBox triggers I can't imagine. They have about half that travel and so feel more like "really good analog buttons" than true triggers. Better than the PS2 buttons, but not as good as they good be. 2) One of the triggers is busted right out of the box. The spring-back isn't right, so it doesn't push back out to the rest position when you let go of it. Shoddy, shoddy workmanship. The latter is particularly annoying, since I had to order the thing online it's going to be a huge hassle to return it, probably not worth my effort. So unless Thrustmaster is bascially willing to replace it on my word that it's broken, they have lost me as a customer, permanently.

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 19:46:14 GMT, Joe62 <[email hidden]> wrote: >But when you take that analysis one step further, and delve into how >many of that 10% will choose to buy online games vs. unconnected ones >... it really is a trivial dent in sales. Here's an example of this analysis: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?section_name=pub&aid=3725 As Iwata points out, when Sony took Hot Shots Golf online it actually sold *less* than previous versions. This is not an isolated case. We've done an analysis of every game sold in North America over the last 3 years. Outside of exceptions like Halo 2, online does nothing for your sales, and sucks up tremendous amounts of development resources.

Why would a developer ignore a feature the absence of which would be a deal-breaker for the publisher? Self-immolation is cheaper, flashier. "Joe62" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (12 lines)

> On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 17:54:42 GMT, "Steve Smith" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >That puts the figure at about 10 million. That's > >nothing to sneeze at...and it's a market that will continue to grow. > > But when you take that analysis one step further, and delve into how > many of that 10% will choose to buy online games vs. unconnected ones > ... it really is a trivial dent in sales. Trust me, I've done the > numbers again and again and there is no business case for a > *developer* to support online (for a publisher, looking to the > longterm gains, that's a different question).

Look to the source. Nintendo is sucking hind tit online. Even Sony, so conspiculously in disarray that they appointed a wanker like Howie Stringer to run the company (if I was Kaz Yamauchi, I woulda bought Sony and put Ken Kutaragi in charge) can't make out in a whorehouse with a fist fulla fifties, Look at what they've done with the PSX (perfect for here, but DOA in the clueless home market...so they killed it!). Go to Japan and you'll see why they don't "get" online. Or, cheaper, read the WSJ...not gamesindustry.biz....sheesh! Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it ain't gonna happen. Every year in the early 80s, Info Age would proclaim THIS was the year of the LAN...and every year the prediction proved premature. But LANs are now bigger than anybody ever dared predict. "Joe62" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (17 lines)

> On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 19:46:14 GMT, Joe62 > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >But when you take that analysis one step further, and delve into how > >many of that 10% will choose to buy online games vs. unconnected ones > >... it really is a trivial dent in sales. > > Here's an example of this analysis: > > http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?section_name=pub&aid=3725 > > As Iwata points out, when Sony took Hot Shots Golf online it actually > sold *less* than previous versions. This is not an isolated case. > We've done an analysis of every game sold in North America over the > last 3 years. Outside of exceptions like Halo 2, online does nothing > for your sales, and sucks up tremendous amounts of development > resources.

I'm fairly certain that the drop off in sales of Hot Shots Golf wasn't due to the inclusion of online play. Do you honestly believe that consumers picked up the package and said "online play? i'm not gonna buy it"? Sony hasn't made online play a priority for the PS2. The design of the hardware, the design of their online network (non-existant). The PS2 is not designed for online play. The growth of XBox Live shows that online play is the future of video games. As broadband continues to grow, so to will online gaming. It's inevitable.

"Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Look to the source. Nintendo is sucking hind tit online. Nope. They are developing the best online technology when the market's ready for it. Gamecube-next will have wireless WIFI online play via a free service. More the point though, our own analysis of sales data confirms his point - generally, at this point, people don't want online games. >Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it ain't gonna happen. I agree; it will be a viable market once everyone's consoles and living rooms have easy, cheap access to the net (Nintendo's WIFI support is a large step in this direction). I'm just saying that currently, it makes no economic sense for a developer to spend money on this feature. The GT team belatedly came to the same logical conclusion ... and would have no doubt come to it sooner if not for pressure from Sony. Joe62

"[email hidden]" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I'm fairly certain that the drop off in sales of Hot Shots Golf wasn't >due to the inclusion of online play. Do you honestly believe that >consumers picked up the package and said "online play? i'm not gonna >buy it"? Why did the sales drop off then? It wasn't the first sequel. The series sold well year after year. It's not an unknown phenomenon for online support to hurt sales if the customers perceive that either the online or the offline game has suffered for lack of focus. Which is actually the impression I get reading this review: http://ps2.gamespy.com/playstation-2/hot-shots-golf-fore/540010p1.html >The growth >of XBox Live shows that online play is the future of video games. As >broadband continues to grow, so to will online gaming. It's inevitable. I agree that it will eventually be a viable market. To call it "the future of video games" is pure hyperbole however. Many people will never want to play online games. Joe62

"Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Why would a developer ignore a feature the absence of which would be a >deal-breaker for the publisher? Publisher's were hot on on-line about a year ago. They have also analyzed the numbers and since wised up (outside of Sony and Microsoft themselves of course, in which case year the pressure for online support is much greater). If the publisher's did want it, and were willing to pay for it, of course we'd be happy to implement it. When they see how much it costs and what it means for sales though, they are the ones who want to cut it. Joe62

And I suppose if Oldsmobile had asked you in 1939 whether they should put self-starters in automobiles, you would have taken a horse & buggy Luddite view that electric gizmos like that were just more tinfoil in yer hat. After all, most people *like* spinning a hand crank - it builds strength & character. "Joe62" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (24 lines)

> "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >I'm fairly certain that the drop off in sales of Hot Shots Golf wasn't > >due to the inclusion of online play. Do you honestly believe that > >consumers picked up the package and said "online play? i'm not gonna > >buy it"? > > Why did the sales drop off then? It wasn't the first sequel. The > series sold well year after year. It's not an unknown phenomenon for > online support to hurt sales if the customers perceive that either the > online or the offline game has suffered for lack of focus. Which is > actually the impression I get reading this review: > > http://ps2.gamespy.com/playstation-2/hot-shots-golf-fore/540010p1.html > > >The growth > >of XBox Live shows that online play is the future of video games. As > >broadband continues to grow, so to will online gaming. It's inevitable. > > I agree that it will eventually be a viable market. To call it "the > future of video games" is pure hyperbole however. Many people will > never want to play online games. > > Joe62

"Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote: >And I suppose if Oldsmobile had asked you in 1939 whether they should put >self-starters in automobiles, you would have taken a horse & buggy Luddite >view that electric gizmos like that were just more tinfoil in yer hat. This discussion is just getting silly now. All I've done is presented the business facts of software development and sales of online console games. Joe62

The publishers wised up...aside from the two biggest console publishers on the planet who control 90 percent of the market! I have my doubts about Sony, but I don't rate Microsoft as stupid. "Joe62" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (14 lines)

> "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Why would a developer ignore a feature the absence of which would be a > >deal-breaker for the publisher? > > Publisher's were hot on on-line about a year ago. They have also > analyzed the numbers and since wised up (outside of Sony and Microsoft > themselves of course, in which case year the pressure for online > support is much greater). If the publisher's did want it, and were > willing to pay for it, of course we'd be happy to implement it. When > they see how much it costs and what it means for sales though, they > are the ones who want to cut it. > > Joe62

Nintendo has figured out that they can not compete with Sony and Microsoft in the traditional games market and are looking for alternative, less competitive markets. Which leaves them the handheld market (for now). Everything they are doing and plan on in the short term revolve around the handheld. Their WiFi network is all about mobile products. Even their next gen console is rumoured to be nothing more than an extension of their mobile products. So no, Nintendo is not developing the "best online technology". They're developing something new, something different and hoping it catches on with the kids. The market is ready for online play, but Nintendo doesn't see their future online. Whether it makes economic sense to include online play is another question. I don't think it's necessarily true for all games, but I do believe that at this point in time, it is very important to include it in flagship titles. Titles that are traditionally system sellers and titles that can expand the online market. An online component is huge for sports and role playing games.

Online play (for games that should have it) is part of the price of admission. Without it is like trying to sell a car w/o airbags. Yes, some people would opt out, but most people want them even if they have no intention of ever using them. <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (19 lines)

> Nintendo has figured out that they can not compete with Sony and > Microsoft in the traditional games market and are looking for > alternative, less competitive markets. Which leaves them the handheld > market (for now). Everything they are doing and plan on in the short > term revolve around the handheld. Their WiFi network is all about > mobile products. Even their next gen console is rumoured to be nothing > more than an extension of their mobile products. So no, Nintendo is > not developing the "best online technology". They're developing > something new, something different and hoping it catches on with the > kids. The market is ready for online play, but Nintendo doesn't see > their future online. > > Whether it makes economic sense to include online play is another > question. I don't think it's necessarily true for all games, but I do > believe that at this point in time, it is very important to include it > in flagship titles. Titles that are traditionally system sellers and > titles that can expand the online market. An online component is huge > for sports and role playing games. >

"[email hidden]" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (7 lines)

>Nintendo has figured out that they can not compete with Sony and >Microsoft in the traditional games market and are looking for >alternative, less competitive markets. Which leaves them the handheld >market (for now). Everything they are doing and plan on in the short >term revolve around the handheld. Their WiFi network is all about >mobile products. Even their next gen console is rumoured to be nothing >more than an extension of their mobile products.

The above statements are incorrect. Nintendo has just released the first details of their next console. It is very similar to PS3/XBox2 aerchitecture, except that it will also feature free Internet play via WIFI: http://gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=7359 Joe62

"Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote: >The publishers wised up...aside from the two biggest console publishers on >the planet who control 90 percent of the market! I have my doubts about >Sony, but I don't rate Microsoft as stupid. Not sure what you mean by "control the market"? They have more influence than anyone else yes, but they don't fund more than maybe 5% of game development. So when it comes time to pay for the online feature in 95% of games, it's the EA/THQ/Ubisoft/Activisions who make the call. They are the ones paying for game development. And note the strongest proponent of online amoung these is EA, who has their own lont-term motive of hooking people into their own gaming network ... they wouldn't be doing it either if it was a matter of looking at cost/profit of individual projects, the way smaller publishers and developers have to look at it. Joe62

>From Nintendo VP Reggie Fils-Aime "Now, our system will truly be powerful. ATI and IBM are fantastic partners, they make fantastic products, and certainly Revolution will be substantially more powerful than all of the systems on the market today. But that's only part of the story. It's really is all about pushing the four vectors that Mr. Iwata touched on. It's pushing on innovation, it's pushing on the interface, it's pushing on the intuitive nature of the system and making it inviting, making it applicable not only for the core consumer but for the casual consumer as well." Trust me, this is marketing talk for "we're moving in another direction". What's the big deal with WiFi? It's not like the next Sony and Microsoft consoles won't support WiFi. It is just wireless networking. The difference is that Nintendo is (apart from calling it free) tying it to thier handhelds. Nintendo needs to find a niche, because they're days in the conventional (set-top box) console market are coming to an end. That is, unless they find a way to hold on.

"[email hidden]" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Trust me, this is marketing talk for "we're moving in another >direction". What's the big deal with WiFi? Whats the big deal? Without it, console Internet gaming won't hit the mainstream for another five years, that's the big deal. Living rooms aren't wired. >It's not like the next >Sony and Microsoft consoles won't support WiFi. Hopefully. We'll see. Joe62

Joe62 wrote: > Whats the big deal? Without it, console Internet gaming won't hit the > mainstream for another five years, that's the big deal. Living rooms > aren't wired. And I still don't see WiFi in a console as all that exciting news. My XBox is wireless. Plugs into a wireless hub. It's not a huge leap forward in console design unless it's a mobile product. Which is why Nintendo is making a fuss about wifi. They're handhelds are going to be able on the sport, local area networks, where kids can network their handhelds and play games. And Nintendo can call it "free' wifi all they want. They have no control over the "free' part. That's up to Starbucks, T*Mobile, and every other wifi provider.

I Just started Playing GT4 and the part that really has me puzzled about GT4 is the Photo Mode. Like you said "Take a photo and...? I really don't see the need for this Feature at all... So you can save you photos and show friends? it really make no sense to me. But the Game itself is alot like GT3 And being a former GT3 Player there is alot more here but to see it all you will have to drive Alot!

I have found one thing I really hate about GT4: rally dirt/ice mode. It doesn't feel even remotely realistic to me (not that I'm the best judge of that) but more importantly it's not at all fun. The Gt3 dirt-racing actually felt a lot better than this. Anyone else feel this way about GT4?

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 21:21:26 GMT, Joe62 <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (7 lines)

>I have found one thing I really hate about GT4: rally dirt/ice mode. > >It doesn't feel even remotely realistic to me (not that I'm the best >judge of that) but more importantly it's not at all fun. The Gt3 >dirt-racing actually felt a lot better than this. > >Anyone else feel this way about GT4?

It's not that I really hate the dirt and ice rally's, but yes, in GT3 it was a lot more fun. Partly because of the utterly silly 5-second penalty when you hit something or hit your opponent. Wouldn't be so bad if it weren't so that you also get the penalty when the opponent rams you :( Andre