Re: Logitech FF wheel: I really hate it

You may have a bad wheel, but I would give it time. I went from an MSFF, and at first the pedals were awful, but I soon forgot about them and find them very precise. The paddles I think offer very relaxed shifting. I also found Alisons settings way to strong for my wheel, so its worth fiddling a bit to tune it to your liking. Be sure to get the DXTweak utility from the Logitech web site to tune the dead zone, it makes a big difference. Steve Roger Squires wrote in message ...

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>Well I just bought and installed this wheel and there's nothing I'm happy >with about it, its a matter of dislikes in varying degrees: > >1) the pedals. worse than I'd ever imagined, unspeakably bad. If you buy >this unit for the FF wheel you will have to budget for a new set of pedals, >like $60 for the chproducts. Since presumably you'd have to keep the >logitech pedals connected, I don't know how addon pedals would work as far >as assigning joystick axes and usb vs. serial or whether I'll have to buy a >separate gamecard of some sort as Alison Hine did. The compgeeks logitech >wheel is serial only, so keep that in mind. If someone is using chproducts >pedals, I'd like to hear how you did it, or a webpage that details it.

What >a disaster these pedals are. A squash ball is not going to save them byany >stretch of the imagination. > >2) The wheel. Notchiness, stiction, steering effort. When you turn the >wheel with power off, there is a subdued but definite ratcheting, like >spinning a socket wrench. This is present at all times, and when combined >(using Alison Hine's settings) with the FF forces, which in many cornersadd

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>notchiness around the center position, you find yourself clutching the >wheel, and everything is more difficult. Forget about relaxed finger-tip >control; holding firmly onto the wheel with all of your arm and even back >and neck muscles tense all of the time is the order of the day here. This >is work. > >3) paddle shifters. Well in themselves they aren't so bad, but again you >have to keep both hands on a very small wheel at all times. With my >thrustmaster T2 only one hand was needed for steering while the other could >rest near the shifter. The sensation with the logitech is the same cramped >and claustrophobic one you get when switching from a natural keyboard back >to an old style straight keyboard. A full-sized wheel would be such a >breath of fresh air. > >Software setup was ok, tho the profiler loads at boot-time, which >bluescreens on my machine every time. I had to run msconfig and disable

it. >NFS5 uses split axes just fine, you have to make sure to uncheck the >combined axis checkbox in the profiler, then in nfs5 choose the logitechand >reassign the throttle and brake. They will show as using different axes if >you did it right. GPL uses them naturally. > > >So the upshot is I spent $70, have to spend another $70 to get rid of the >pedals to have any hope of approaching my old laptimes, for anuncomfortable

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>unrelaxed driving experience. I'm pretty bummed about it all. > >rms >[email hidden] > > >

Have a look at my web pages for a replacement for the pedals, I started building these after buying my LWFF and realising the pedals were only fit for the trash bin. http://website.lineone.net/~mikebay/MTIndex.htm Cheers. MikeT. On August 12 2000, "Roger Squires" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> 1) the pedals. worse than I'd ever imagined, unspeakably bad. If you > buy this unit for the FF wheel you will have to budget for a new set > of pedals, like $60 for the chproducts. Since presumably you'd have > to keep the logitech pedals connected, I don't know how addon pedals > would work as far as assigning joystick axes and usb vs. serial or > whether I'll have to buy a separate gamecard of some sort as Alison > Hine did. The compgeeks logitech wheel is serial only, so keep that > in mind. If someone is using chproducts pedals, I'd like to hear how > you did it, or a webpage that details it. What a disaster these > pedals are. A squash ball is not going to save them by any stretch of > the imagination.> .

-- - MikeT [email hidden] http://website.lineone.net/~mikebay/MTIndex.htm

"Roger Squires" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:rCel5.1282$[email hidden]... > The compgeeks logitech > wheel is serial only, so keep that in mind. Bull...I recieved an LWFF, my second, from Computergeeks yesterday, it's a USB and Serial port wheel just like every other LWFF ever sold. Maybe you didn't get the cable. Send it back. >If someone is using chproducts > pedals, I'd like to hear how you did it, or a webpage that details it. I've been using my CH pedals with the wheel for more than a year, it was a very simple matter of removing the wiring from the Logitech pedals and using this to replace the wiring on the CH pedals. It takes about 20 minutes. There is an article on Alison's GPL site that explains the procedure. My new wheel does have the "notchy" feel that my older wheel did not have. It is my understanding that this is because of the stronger motor in the newer wheels. I can tell you the forces are quite a bit stronger with the new wheel and the shifters feel improved, with a very positive "click" when shifting. Give it some time, rarely can anyone match their old times right away with a new controller. -- don New GPL Programs for the Converted Tracks: http://www.ianparker1.freeserve.co.uk/gpl/index.html http://www2.tpg.com.au/users/brucek/hmrc/index.htm

In article <rCel5.1282$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > Well I just bought and installed this wheel and there's nothing I'm happy > with about it, its a matter of dislikes in varying degrees: > ...> wheel with power off, there is a subdued but definite ratcheting, like > spinning a socket wrench. This is present at all times, and when combined > (using Alison Hine's settings) with the FF forces, which in many corners add > notchiness around the center position, you find yourself clutching the > wheel, and everything is more difficult. My guess is you got a defective unit - call Logitech for a replacement. Make sure you specify the problem so they don't send you one with the same problem? ;-)

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> > 3) paddle shifters. Well in themselves they aren't so bad, but again you > have to keep both hands on a very small wheel at all times. With my > thrustmaster T2 only one hand was needed for steering while the other could > rest near the shifter. The sensation with the logitech is the same cramped > and claustrophobic one you get when switching from a natural keyboard back > to an old style straight keyboard. A full-sized wheel would be such a > breath of fresh air. >

I disagree. Most real racing wheels (outside of NASCAR) are on the small side. And I haven't seen any true racers use one hand, unless they are shifting - which in this case you don't have to do. Perhaps you're not getting into the right frame of mind? > > So the upshot is I spent $70, have to spend another $70 to get rid of the > pedals to have any hope of approaching my old laptimes, for an uncomfortable > unrelaxed driving experience. I'm pretty bummed about it all. > My hunch is you'll get used to the pedals - I did. You may try tighter springs, but I found that was not as great a solution as simply adapting to the pedals. They force you to take a more precise, controlled approach to braking! -- s i m a g e r y @ h o t m a i l . c o m

Well I just bought and installed this wheel and there's nothing I'm happy with about it, its a matter of dislikes in varying degrees: 1) the pedals. worse than I'd ever imagined, unspeakably bad. If you buy this unit for the FF wheel you will have to budget for a new set of pedals, like $60 for the chproducts. Since presumably you'd have to keep the logitech pedals connected, I don't know how addon pedals would work as far as assigning joystick axes and usb vs. serial or whether I'll have to buy a separate gamecard of some sort as Alison Hine did. The compgeeks logitech wheel is serial only, so keep that in mind. If someone is using chproducts pedals, I'd like to hear how you did it, or a webpage that details it. What a disaster these pedals are. A squash ball is not going to save them by any stretch of the imagination. 2) The wheel. Notchiness, stiction, steering effort. When you turn the wheel with power off, there is a subdued but definite ratcheting, like spinning a socket wrench. This is present at all times, and when combined (using Alison Hine's settings) with the FF forces, which in many corners add notchiness around the center position, you find yourself clutching the wheel, and everything is more difficult. Forget about relaxed finger-tip control; holding firmly onto the wheel with all of your arm and even back and neck muscles tense all of the time is the order of the day here. This is work. 3) paddle shifters. Well in themselves they aren't so bad, but again you have to keep both hands on a very small wheel at all times. With my thrustmaster T2 only one hand was needed for steering while the other could rest near the shifter. The sensation with the logitech is the same cramped and claustrophobic one you get when switching from a natural keyboard back to an old style straight keyboard. A full-sized wheel would be such a breath of fresh air. Software setup was ok, tho the profiler loads at boot-time, which bluescreens on my machine every time. I had to run msconfig and disable it. NFS5 uses split axes just fine, you have to make sure to uncheck the combined axis checkbox in the profiler, then in nfs5 choose the logitech and reassign the throttle and brake. They will show as using different axes if you did it right. GPL uses them naturally. So the upshot is I spent $70, have to spend another $70 to get rid of the pedals to have any hope of approaching my old laptimes, for an uncomfortable unrelaxed driving experience. I'm pretty bummed about it all. rms [email hidden]

Just imagine how bad the other wheels are then ;) Seriously though, the wheel definitely becomes free-er and smoother with use. The Logitech has the smoothest wheel movement of the wheels i've used. It's way smoother than the MS, Guillemot and TM FF wheels. And yes the pedals are dodgy, but they are useable. I replaced the spring in the accelerator pedal, which helped a little. Also don't wear shoes, and try to press the pedals with your toes and not your whole foot. Anyway, $70 isn't so bad, I paid �129 for my LWFF which is more like $170. "Roger Squires" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:rCel5.1282$[email hidden]... > Well I just bought and installed this wheel and there's nothing I'm happy > with about it, its a matter of dislikes in varying degrees: ><snip> > > > So the upshot is I spent $70, have to spend another $70 to get rid of the > pedals to have any hope of approaching my old laptimes, for anuncomfortable > unrelaxed driving experience. I'm pretty bummed about it all. > > rms

[email hidden] (Roger Squires) wrote: >Since presumably you'd have to >keep the logitech pedals connected, I don't know how addon pedals would >work as far as assigning joystick axes and usb vs. serial or whether. I have LWFF and CH Pedals. The LWFF (ID#1) is hooked up via USB and the CH Pedals (and CH Combatstick combined to make up ID#2) are still both plugged into my soundcard. Whether or not I can use the CH pedals with the LWFF wheel is dependent on the game and whether or not it supports multiple controllers (steering from ID#1, pedals from ID#2). AFAIK, there's not much Logitech can do about this situation. It's about games not exploiting the full feature set provided by DirectX APIs. I think a lot of this is simply a natural evolution of new technology as the games play leap-frog with the APIs which are there for their use. >I'll have to buy a separate gamecard of some sort as Alison Hine did. I haven't read Alison's instructions but keep in mind that what I said above is still going to be true. Alison has a habit (a good one) of talking only about GPL -- her info doesn't always translate across the board because she's usually talking exclusively about GPL which, unlike so many other games, DOES allow multiple controllers. If a game doesn't support multiple controllers, I don't see how a separate serial card will help (but maybe I'm wrong -- anyone?). >The compgeeks logitech wheel is serial only, so keep that in mind. I received my LWFF from Compugeeks about two weeks ago and I'm using the USB connector that came with it. Since so many of my driving games will not allow me to use the CH Pedals, I'm still stuck using the LWFF pedals about 75% of the time. Surprisingly, I'm starting to get used to them, too. They still aren't my first choice over CH Pedals but they're surprisingly more "useable" than I thought they would be at first. What someone else said about driving barefooted is helpful. I tried the squash-ball trick and that helped the tension but my opinion is tension is not really the core problem: the size and shape of the pedals, their location, and their planes of movement. To me, that is what makes them so irregular. Tightening the pedals up with a squash ball or even new springs doesn't alleviate those issues so I took finally just the ball out and have tried to get use to pushing pedals mostly forward instead of mostly down (or whatever it is that causes them to feel so odd). Seems to me a better fix might be attaching two small pieces of wood (new pedals) to the base of the pedal assembly on hinges so that your foot lies on and pushes the boards which pushes the real pedals. If you were really slick, you could even install the boards on a small fulcrum so the pivot point of the new pedals are in the small of your feet (as they are with CH Pedals). I should try that as I think this would be closer to solving the problem *I* have with these pedals which is more about their seemingly bizarre rotational movement than it is about their stiffness. As someone else said, you could solve the problem by cutting the LWFF pedals off and rewiring the CH Pedals in their place but that's beyond the scope of this message and is presumably covered in more detail on Alison's website. As for the wheel itself, it took about a week before I caught up with my old CH Combatstick lap times. Change always hurts, even when it's change for the better. :) Another week later and I am finally getting times that are significantly better than the threshold I seemed to have reached when I was using a joystick and couldn't find two or three less seconds anywhere. The pedals are still largely a mystery to me but I'm sold on the wheel itself. My impression of force feedback so far is that it's not wholly realistic but you can learn to interpret what it's trying to tell even if it's doing so in a manner not truly reflective of reality. That means it's not only fun but is in my mind an actual tool I can use (and have) to get better times. Once I started paying attention to what the FF was trying to tell me instead of what focusing on what I thought it should be telling me based on real-life experiences, once I acquiesced that one layer of translation is necessary before FF is truly useful (to me), only then did FF change from novel gimmick to useful sim-driving tool. I just had to learn to interpret its language and accept it for what it is rather than get frustrated at why it didn't understand mine. :) For example, "steering with the throttle" in GPL doesn't feel very accurate to me FF-wise (I have no credentials, don't ask :) but whatever it's doing is different than when you're driving down the straightaway, and whatever that "something" is is helping the graphics and sound give you a story about you how close you are to pushing, sliding, etc. Being able to feel gravity shifts, and the extent of them, is a real boon. Tune into FF on its terms and I think you'll find something in there to help you squeeze another half a second out of a problematic turn. More importantly, I think it's helped me prevent calamity more consistently when the goal of a faster turn has got me into trouble. :-) I should add that being the new toy it was I initially set mine up too forceful when I installed it. The rule of thumb I came up with is whenever I find myself driving more against FF than track, it's too high. :) That, and realizing what felt great to me for two laps in short tests while tweaking was often surprisingly tiresome in an intense 45 minute race, especially online which raises the adrenalin bar anyway. It seems only fair to admit the possibility that the only reason I'm seeing better results is because I've been racing that much more. Practice, after all, is the most important element of progress. But, I've had GPL, for example, since the first few weeks it was out and have gone through it for several two- or three-month phases. My lap times always topped out in the same general area and I have finally surpassed some of those since getting the LWFF. I don't think it's all just interest or [more] pratice but I could be wrong. Personally, I really like my LWFF. It has a feel shortcomings but it's still far better than what I was trying to do with a joystick, and it's much more immersive to me even if it wasn't as effective. :) All the best, Rick

Hi Roger, On Sat, 12 Aug 2000 16:06:47 GMT, "Roger Squires" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Well I just bought and installed this wheel and there's nothing I'm happy >with about it, its a matter of dislikes in varying degrees: > >1) the pedals. worse than I'd ever imagined, unspeakably bad. If you buy >this unit for the FF wheel you will have to budget for a new set of pedals,<snip> some people like them, some people hate them >2) The wheel. Notchiness, stiction, steering effort. When you turn the >wheel with power off, there is a subdued but definite ratcheting, like >spinning a socket wrench. This is present at all times, and when combined Here we go again: bent motor spindle due to careless assembly (check out my webpage for some further info) Bring this one back and check out the next one with power off. >3) paddle shifters. Well in themselves they aren't so bad, but again you >have to keep both hands on a very small wheel at all times. With my >thrustmaster T2 only one hand was needed for steering while the other could >rest near the shifter. The sensation with the logitech is the same cramped Probably I'm wrong, but I race with 2 hands on my wheel and find the shifters excellent, though of course not authentic for GPL. Wheel size is also ok for me. The one thing which really sucks at the Logi is the support. See you Jens --------------------------------------------- LWFF Ball Bearing conversion at: http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ GPLRank: +1.31

On Sat, 12 Aug 2000 13:23:31 -0700, "don hodgdon" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> >"Roger Squires" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:rCel5.1282$[email hidden]... > >> The compgeeks logitech >> wheel is serial only, so keep that in mind. > >Bull...I recieved an LWFF, my second, from Computergeeks yesterday, it's a >USB and Serial port wheel just like every other LWFF ever sold. Maybe you >didn't get the cable. Send it back.

<snip> Right, they are all serial with additional USB-adapter. Roger needs to dig in his box Jens --------------------------------------------- LWFF Ball Bearing conversion at: http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ GPLRank: +1.31

Well, my LWFF was also serial only.. not that I am complaining, i've never had a moments trouble with this unit even with several other input devices connected and assigned iD numbers in Windows Game Controller applet. Personally I don't have too much problem with the pedals either.. I did for a while use the pedals from my Thrustmaster Formula 1 but have now gone back to using the LWFF ones and am finding them very good. I am certainly not losing any time on the track as a result of using them. PH "don hodgdon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8n4bmg$16h$[email hidden]...

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> > "Roger Squires" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:rCel5.1282$[email hidden]... > > > The compgeeks logitech > > wheel is serial only, so keep that in mind. > > Bull...I recieved an LWFF, my second, from Computergeeks yesterday, it's a > USB and Serial port wheel just like every other LWFF ever sold. Maybe you > didn't get the cable. Send it back. > > >If someone is using chproducts > > pedals, I'd like to hear how you did it, or a webpage that details it. > > I've been using my CH pedals with the wheel for more than a year, it was a > very simple matter of removing the wiring from the Logitech pedals and

using

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> this to replace the wiring on the CH pedals. It takes about 20 minutes. > There is an article on Alison's GPL site that explains the procedure. > > My new wheel does have the "notchy" feel that my older wheel did not have. > It is my understanding that this is because of the stronger motor in the > newer wheels. I can tell you the forces are quite a bit stronger with the > new wheel and the shifters feel improved, with a very positive "click"

when > shifting. > > Give it some time, rarely can anyone match their old times right away witha

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> new controller. > > -- > don > > New GPL Programs for the Converted Tracks: > http://www.ianparker1.freeserve.co.uk/gpl/index.html > http://www2.tpg.com.au/users/brucek/hmrc/index.htm > > >

> Right, they are all serial with additional USB-adapter. Roger needs to digin > his box The compgeeks wheel does not come with a usb adapter, partly why its so cheap no doubt. rms [email hidden]

Then they lost it. The adapter is a simple piece of wire with a 9-pin serial on one side and the USB on the other side. Does the wheel come in an original box or is it a refurbished one? JensSchumi On Mon, 21 Aug 2000 23:27:05 GMT, "Roger Squires" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>> Right, they are all serial with additional USB-adapter. Roger needs to dig >in >> his box > >The compgeeks wheel does not come with a usb adapter, partly why its so >cheap no doubt. > >rms >[email hidden] > >

--------------------------------------------- LWFF Ball Bearing conversion at: http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ GPLRank: -2.61

yes it does, mine did Roger Squires <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:dVio5.334$[email hidden]... > > Right, they are all serial with additional USB-adapter. Roger needs todig

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> in > > his box > > The compgeeks wheel does not come with a usb adapter, partly why its so > cheap no doubt. > > rms > [email hidden] > > >

mine was brand new JS <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Then they lost it. > The adapter is a simple piece of wire with a 9-pin serial on one side andthe > USB on the other side. > Does the wheel come in an original box or is it a refurbished one? > > JensSchumi > > On Mon, 21 Aug 2000 23:27:05 GMT, "Roger Squires" <[email hidden]>wrote: > > >> Right, they are all serial with additional USB-adapter. Roger needs todig

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> >in > >> his box > > > >The compgeeks wheel does not come with a usb adapter, partly why its so > >cheap no doubt. > > > >rms > >[email hidden] > > > > > > --------------------------------------------- > LWFF Ball Bearing conversion at: > http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ > > GPLRank: -2.61