Re: F12000, any decent A/I drivers fix?

In article <_w_l5.27104$[email hidden]>, karaya- [email hidden] says...

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> I find SCGT's AI positively evil. If you are lapping them, they never pull > aside, but race with you. They will slam into you in turns or run into the > back of you regardless of the situation. By far, the SCGT AI is the game's > biggest problem IMO. > > I find the AI in F12K a little bit better, as they will move aside once in a > while and have not willfully slammed into me.

The big villains in F1 2000 for me are (in no particular order): Both Minardis (but more Mazzacane); Jacques Villeneuve (when overtaking for position only); Eddie Irvine (anytime, any place, anywhere). I should take a look at Irvine's AI sometime - he's a kamikaze. Slows too abruptly at any point you're behind him, or just takes plain dumb lines through corners. *Always* take it easy passing this guy! -- s i m a g e r y @ h o t m a i l . c o m

Hello, I -really- enjoy F12000, but at times, can get "unnerved" by the A/I drivers. Is anyone aware of an A/I-fix patch (maybe 3rd party), or know if EA plans on another F12k patch? Blackhole M.S. website has some A/I files, but nothing that seems to be a global A/I fix(?). A semi-decent A/I "seems" to be buried in F12k (somewhere..). Yet after watching them drive, it seems they're set to "super-aggresive-mode". No A/I cars want to give-way, it's just full-blown "get the hell out of my way" driving. If just toned-down a bit, racing would run much smoother. Funny, EA's SCGT's A/I drivers can be a good match, and are =much= better (less crazy) than F12k's. Wish those A/I settings could be imported into F12000. EA should easily be able to straigten this out without too much trouble? Thx, Matt

On Mon, 14 Aug 2000 05:54:33 GMT, teehole <holysmokes!@spammy.net> thus spoke: > Funny, EA's SCGT's A/I drivers can be a good match, and are =much= >better (less crazy) than F12k's. Wish those A/I settings could be >imported into F12000. You thinks so? In SCGT the AI cards deliberately try to run you off the road when passing. It's just that the SCGT cars can take more damage and a little push and shove is easier to handle than in an F1 car. -- Nos

I find SCGT's AI positively evil. If you are lapping them, they never pull aside, but race with you. They will slam into you in turns or run into the back of you regardless of the situation. By far, the SCGT AI is the game's biggest problem IMO. I find the AI in F12K a little bit better, as they will move aside once in a while and have not willfully slammed into me. There should be blue flags waving in F12K and SCGT. Dave Pawlikowski [email hidden] www.cushdrive.com

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> > I -really- enjoy F12000, but at times, can get "unnerved" by the A/I > drivers. > > Is anyone aware of an A/I-fix patch (maybe 3rd party), or know if EA > plans on another F12k patch? Blackhole M.S. website has some A/I > files, but nothing that seems to be a global A/I fix(?). > > A semi-decent A/I "seems" to be buried in F12k (somewhere..). Yet > after watching them drive, it seems they're set to > "super-aggresive-mode". No A/I cars want to give-way, it's just > full-blown "get the hell out of my way" driving. If just toned-down a > bit, racing would run much smoother. > > Funny, EA's SCGT's A/I drivers can be a good match, and are =much= > better (less crazy) than F12k's. Wish those A/I settings could be > imported into F12000. > > EA should easily be able to straigten this out without too much > trouble? > > Thx, Matt

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> BriGuy wrote: > > > The big villains in F1 2000 for me are (in no particular order): > > > Both Minardis (but more Mazzacane); > > Jacques Villeneuve (when overtaking for position only); > > The above two sound pretty true to life. In last weekend's race at Hungary, Marc > Gene, the other Minardi driver, held up Irvine for several laps because he didn't > think the blue flag was for him. > > Jacques has caused a few crashes this year with ill-advised driving, most notably > his incredibly lame attempt at passing Coulthard during the Canadian GP in the > rain. Two laps in a row he locked it up uncontrollably. The second time, he > slid right by Coulthard and took out Ralf Schumacher. And in Hungary he hit de > la Rosa on the first lap. >

Yeah, I saw that Canada brain-fart. What a tool. But then again, I'm running some third-party AI plugs... maybe they factored that in! ;-) > > Eddie Irvine (anytime, any place, anywhere). > > Well, Eddie has certainly improved quite a bit in this regard in the last few > years. Sounds like the John Surtees syndrome. > That's what everybody says, but I'm afraid that was before my time! (at least, before I followed the sport! ;-) -- s i m a g e r y @ h o t m a i l . c o m

BriGuy wrote: > The big villains in F1 2000 for me are (in no particular order): > Both Minardis (but more Mazzacane); > Jacques Villeneuve (when overtaking for position only); The above two sound pretty true to life. In last weekend's race at Hungary, Marc Gene, the other Minardi driver, held up Irvine for several laps because he didn't think the blue flag was for him. Jacques has caused a few crashes this year with ill-advised driving, most notably his incredibly lame attempt at passing Coulthard during the Canadian GP in the rain. Two laps in a row he locked it up uncontrollably. The second time, he slid right by Coulthard and took out Ralf Schumacher. And in Hungary he hit de la Rosa on the first lap. > Eddie Irvine (anytime, any place, anywhere). Well, Eddie has certainly improved quite a bit in this regard in the last few years. Sounds like the John Surtees syndrome. Dave Ewing -- ***************************************************** David A. Ewing Xilinx Boulder [email hidden] *****************************************************

On Mon, 14 Aug 2000 05:54:33 GMT, teehole <holysmokes!@spammy.net> wrote: My last post was off-topic, here's a more specific post: I -really- enjoy F12000, but at times, can get "unnerved" by the A/I drivers. Is anyone aware of an A/I-fix patch (maybe 3rd party), or know if EA plans on another F12k patch? Blackhole M.S. website has some A/I files, but nothing that seems to be a global A/I fix(?). A semi-decent A/I "seems" to be buried in F12k (somewhere..). Yet after watching them drive, it seems they're set to "super-aggresive-mode". No A/I cars want to give-way, it's just full-blown "get the hell out of my way" driving. If just toned-down a bit, racing would run much smoother. Thanks, Matt

Matt wrote; > A semi-decent A/I "seems" to be buried in F12k (somewhere..). Yet >after watching them drive, it seems they're set to >"super-aggresive-mode". No A/I cars want to give-way, it's just >full-blown "get the hell out of my way" driving. If just toned-down a >bit, racing would run much smoother. > Yeah, edit the ai_pen.ini file found in the "Save" folder. This will cut their balls off: pace_weave=(-0.10) closing_vel=(8.0) minimum_vel=(7.0) safe_dist=(12.0) You can edit the Season00\Vehicles\game.gbd file to give the AI setups with more grip, since all the defaults use hard tires and low wings. That helps. Or you can edit the veh files the AI will use. Boost the wheel inertia to 4.0 or more, and reduce tire stiffness to about 37 and they won't spinout so much and are slower off the start. Also, it seems the AI are coded to get paybacks. If you tap them, they will play rough. Get aggressive going into the first turn and they will play rough. But if you do the above tweaks, and keep your starting position in the pack until past the first turn, and don't tap anyone, you can get thru the first lap at even Monaco, without being touched and no pile ups, 10 times in a row. This is even with the AI set at only 85%. You know, what I think is happening with sims is that $40 is not enough to make a profit on a finished product, given the small market share. Also, a sim is so complex to make and play, that they just don't have time to put all the possible options in a visual interface, which would be cluttered and confusing anyway. Since no publisher has the guts to charge $100 we pay $40 cash and pay for the rest by waiting for patches, and spending a lot of time fussing and tweaking. I don't expect it to be any different with WSC. Tom One more thing, reducing the penalty for AI mistakes keeps the train running smoothly. This is a copy of my ai_pen.ini file: [AIPENALTIES] offgroove=(-0.2) // penalty for driving off the racing line 1 offgroove_pits=(-2.0) // penalty for driving off line in pits steady_lateral=(-0.1) // penalty for swerving (should not exceed offgroove or offgroove_pits) .45 offroad=(-50.0) // penalty for driving on grass faroff=(-30.0) // penalty for driving into wall 130 collision=(-10.0) // penalty for hitting another car collision_inc=(-20.0) // penalty for hitting another car harder tight_turn=(-1.0) // penalty for turning at edge of ability (other than turns required to follow racing line) 5 impossible_turn=(-2.0) // penalty for turning beyond edge of ability 8 depth=(-50.0) // penalty for being off racing line heading onto grass dest_lateral=(-25.0) // head for destination such as pit stall or starting location (at end of formation lap) pace_weave=(-0.10) // weaving during formation lap .5 [AIOBSTACLES] // Note: 1 m/s is roughly 2 mph and roughly 3 kph closing_vel=(8.0) // closing velocity (m/s) to decide to pass (suggestion: any value more than 10.0 may cause worse havoc) 8w minimum_vel=(7.0) // minimum velocity (m/s) to obey closing velocity rule (prevents standstill if car in front stops completely) 5? 7w safe_dist=(12.0) // if we decide to follow, stay <safe_dist> meters behind other car 12w // 6 spa, 12 monaco not 9,

BriGuy wrote:

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> I> > Eddie Irvine (anytime, any place, anywhere). > > > > Well, Eddie has certainly improved quite a bit in this regard in the last few > > years. Sounds like the John Surtees syndrome. > > > That's what everybody says, but I'm afraid that was before my time! (at > least, before I followed the sport! ;-)

I was referring to the virtual John Surtees in GPL who is notorious for driving up your rear end, not his real life counterpart, who was nowhere near this maniacal. Dave Ewing -- ***************************************************** David A. Ewing Xilinx Boulder [email hidden] *****************************************************

On 16 Aug 2000 17:45:17 GMT, [email hidden] (TToommLL) wrote:

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>> A semi-decent A/I "seems" to be buried in F12k (somewhere..). Yet >>after watching them drive, it seems they're set to >>"super-aggresive-mode". No A/I cars want to give-way, it's just >>full-blown "get the hell out of my way" driving. If just toned-down a >>bit, racing would run much smoother. >> > >Yeah, edit the ai_pen.ini file found in the "Save" folder. >This will cut their balls off: >pace_weave=(-0.10) >closing_vel=(8.0) >minimum_vel=(7.0) >safe_dist=(12.0)

I tried your entire ai_pen.ini (nothing else yet) in a quick race, and it did work quite well at Monaco! Especially the formation lap, much calmer than usual. Then I headed to Monza, then tried about 8-9 race starts. Your settings at least seemed to "try" to work (i.e., less weaving, etc.) but the silly A/I cars, they went nuts before they could reach start-positions. On the last one, I watched the formation-lap again, (forcing cockpit view-modes) at Monza. Nick Heidfeld (for some unknown reason) after the first chicane, decided to slow-down to about 20mph. Nothing wrong with his car (no damage at all), but he's got another 12 cars in tow behind him, all moving like a stop-and-go traffic jam. I'm already at my start-spot (pre-picked, 12th), waiting. Go to camera view again, and Heidfeld and 12 other cars are wayyyyy back there, moving at 20mph, it's gonna be a while. While waiting to start, I go to outside sky-view, and can see David Coultard (#1 pole) starting to "drift" down the track (was funny actually). He was past his start position about 100 yards, on a continual, crawling, coast. He just kept coasting. Looking down the start line, I saw several other cars that must have wanted to coast, but were stopped by cars in front of them (Villeneuve was one of them, 2 others too). Heidfeld and pack is slow, so we just sit and wait maybe 2-3 minutes, pole-sitter coasting, others touching each other. Then as by magic, all is normal, the race is ready to start. One quick look again, and all cars are back in position, none are out of line, a perfect line-up. As if nothing happened at all. This showed me that all cars are "forced" in proper spots, right before any race. Which also shows that whoever programmed the A/I cars, probably knew some very messy things happen during a formation lap. As if the programmer(s) said, 'ahh, screw this, we'll just -reset- all the cars to proper spots, right before the light goes green. Heck, it's really only the first 20-50 seconds(?) of any race start that cause the majority of all problems. I really don't have many A/I car problems, at least after the first 2-4 chicanes/turns of any race. Oh well, it sure looks like the formation-lap was a last-minute programming afterthought. It's pretty munged. But without the formation-lap, frame-rate suffers greatly on the 1st lap. Need the frame-rate on the critical start, and the critical start is very messy. Kinda funny actually; an entire sim messed up by the first 20-50 seconds of most any race-start.

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>You can edit the Season00\Vehicles\game.gbd file to >give the AI setups with more grip, since all the >defaults use hard tires and low wings. That helps. >Or you can edit the veh files the AI will use. Boost >the wheel inertia to 4.0 or more, and reduce tire stiffness >to about 37 and they won't spinout so much and are >slower off the start.

I took a look at the game.gbd file, what's the name of the line to change?

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>Also, it seems the AI are coded to get paybacks. >If you tap them, they will play rough. Get aggressive >going into the first turn and they will play rough. >But if you do the above tweaks, and keep your starting >position in the pack until past the first turn, and don't >tap anyone, you can get thru the first lap at even Monaco, >without being touched and no pile ups, 10 times in a row. >This is even with the AI set at only 85%.

I have more problems (at least starting in 12th place) with cars in front of me not starting fast enough; I have to drive around them to get moving. Then of course they catch up, and it's messy. Then the usual "rear-end'ing", the rear-wing is gone, or get knocked (spun) out of the race.

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>You know, what I think is happening with sims is that >$40 is not enough to make a profit on a finished product, >given the small market share. Also, a sim is so complex >to make and play, that they just don't have time to put >all the possible options in a visual interface, which would >be cluttered and confusing anyway. Since no publisher >has the guts to charge $100 we pay $40 cash and pay >for the rest by waiting for patches, and spending a lot >of time fussing and tweaking. I don't expect it to be >any different with WSC.

Wonderful (sigh....), but probably true. Unless EA can create a better patch for F12000 (version 1.09 already), I'll probably end up getting GP2.5, errr, GP3!..<g>. sometime in the future. Otoh, maybe 3rd party programmers can fix those first 20-50 seconds. Thanks for all the tips!, Matt ------------------------

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>One more thing, reducing the penalty for AI mistakes keeps >the train running smoothly. This is a copy of my >ai_pen.ini file: > >[AIPENALTIES] >offgroove=(-0.2) // penalty for driving off the racing line 1 >offgroove_pits=(-2.0) // penalty for driving off line in pits >steady_lateral=(-0.1) // penalty for swerving (should not exceed offgroove or >offgroove_pits) .45 >offroad=(-50.0) // penalty for driving on grass >faroff=(-30.0) // penalty for driving into wall 130 >collision=(-10.0) // penalty for hitting another car >collision_inc=(-20.0) // penalty for hitting another car harder >tight_turn=(-1.0) // penalty for turning at edge of ability (other than >turns required to follow racing line) 5 >impossible_turn=(-2.0) // penalty for turning beyond edge of ability 8 >depth=(-50.0) // penalty for being off racing line heading onto >grass >dest_lateral=(-25.0) // head for destination such as pit stall or starting >location (at end of formation lap) >pace_weave=(-0.10) // weaving during formation lap .5 > >[AIOBSTACLES] // Note: 1 m/s is roughly 2 mph and roughly 3 kph >closing_vel=(8.0) // closing velocity (m/s) to decide to pass >(suggestion: any value more than 10.0 may cause worse havoc) 8w >minimum_vel=(7.0) // minimum velocity (m/s) to obey closing velocity rule >(prevents standstill if car in front stops completely) 5? 7w >safe_dist=(12.0) // if we decide to follow, stay <safe_dist> meters >behind other car 12w >// 6 spa, 12 monaco not 9, >

I'm sure F1-2000 models drafting (maybe not turbulence). I can surely reach higher speeds while drafting and turning into a high-speed corner behind another car causes the follower to push. Jason. TToommLL wrote: > Neither models drafting or turbulence from opponents. > (bring it on F1RS3). > > Tom > -- Jason Monds http://www.proracingclub.com - Pro Racing Club! (N3, GPL) http://members.home.net/stuff.mondsj/csp - Car Sim Project (Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)

Matt wrote; [snip] >Oh well, it sure looks like the formation-lap was a last-minute >programming afterthought. It's pretty munged. But without the >formation-lap, frame-rate suffers greatly on the 1st lap. Need the >frame-rate on the critical start, and the critical start is very >messy. I should mention that I don't use the formation lap for the reasons you've detailed. I also only use an AI field of 11 cars. This boosts the fps greatly. I also turn of the mirrors at the start and use on "lookback" button on my wheel. About the formation lap at Monza, I tried it and changing minimum_vel to 4.0 helps some, but still got the pole guy creeping away and a very long wait. > > I took a look at the game.gbd file, what's the name of the line to >change? > At the bottom of the file is a list of tracks. But what I've started doing is changing the veh files for the cars to give the AI (and myself) much more tire grip. I change stiffness for each tire to 30.0 (an easy number to change to). Then I just switch to "hard" tires in the garage menu. "Soft" tire grip, but the tires last longer than "EA" softs. Since the AI setups use hard tires, this gives them "soft" tires. >I have more problems (at least starting in 12th place) with cars in >front of me not starting fast enough; I have to drive around them to >get moving. Then of course they catch up, and it's messy. Then the >usual "rear-end'ing", the rear-wing is gone, or get knocked (spun) out >of the race. > Yep, the problem with my tweaks is they are overly tame for the start. When I say "keep your starting position in the pack" I meant don't pass anyone until after the first turn. If you start at 7th, stay in 7th until after the first turn. Not very realistic I know, but it works for getting a good race going. >I'll probably end up >getting GP2.5, errr, GP3!..<g>. sometime in the future. I took a look at it and deleted it. While it gets a faster fps than F1 2000 with the same gfx settings, I can't get it fast enough to race. I can race F1 2000 because it has the options to reduce the number of AI drivers and turn off the mirrors, reduce car detail and textures. I do that and get a much better fps than with GP3. However, with WSC delayed, and if F1RS3 gets delayed, and if GP3 LWFF gets patched, I'll probably buy it and upgrade my video card. They are both half finished and GP3 has some of the half that F1 2000 doesn't. GP3 still feels a bit more in contact with the road, F1 2000 has better vertical force modeling. F1 2000 Spa is awful, but Spain is very good. GP3 Spa seems good, but Spain is way off. Neither has a good replay system from within a race. Neither has a good complete FF. Neither models drafting or turbulence from opponents. (bring it on F1RS3). Neither has graphical beauty comparable to Solitude and the new cars for GPL. Why did I get addicted to modern F1? What was I thinking? Tom Oh, one thing, GP3 has beyond state of the art weather!

On 22 Aug 2000 04:41:28 GMT, [email hidden] (TToommLL) wrote: re: formation Well it's just a "damn shame" the race starts can be so rough. I will try to stay in formation<g>. >I should mention that I don't use the formation lap for the >reasons you've detailed. I also only use an AI field of 11 cars. >This boosts the fps greatly.<<<<<<<<<< I want the full field running. If qualifying at the top end (maybe top 5/7), the A/I cars behind aren't a big problem. Yet I still hear (via radio) lots of damage reports during races. Lots of missing wings, etc. Sounds like too much to me (what happens when 5 aggressive drivers want to enter a chicane at the same time).

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>At the bottom of the file is a list of tracks. But what I've started >doing is changing the veh files for the cars to give the AI >(and myself) much more tire grip. I change stiffness for each tire >to 30.0 (an easy number to change to). Then I just switch >to "hard" tires in the garage menu. "Soft" tire grip, but the tires >last longer than "EA" softs. Since the AI setups use hard tires, >this gives them "soft" tires.

I'm guessing you're setting this to help A/I cars gain more control than anything else. The tire-wear for soft tires seems accurate enough. But if setting stiffness to 30 helps overall A/I racing, then it's worth trying. Re: GP3

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>I took a look at it and deleted it. While it gets a faster >fps than F1 2000 with the same gfx settings, I can't get >it fast enough to race. I can race F1 2000 because >it has the options to reduce the number of AI drivers >and turn off the mirrors, reduce car detail and textures. >I do that and get a much better fps than with GP3. >However, with WSC delayed, and if F1RS3 gets delayed, >and if GP3 LWFF gets patched, I'll probably buy it and >upgrade my video card. They are both half finished and >GP3 has some of the half that F1 2000 doesn't. >GP3 still feels a bit more in contact with the road, >F1 2000 has better vertical force modeling. >F1 2000 Spa is awful, but Spain is very good. >GP3 Spa seems good, but Spain is way off. >Neither has a good replay system from within a race. >Neither has a good complete FF. >Neither models drafting or turbulence from opponents. >(bring it on F1RS3). >Neither has graphical beauty comparable to Solitude >and the new cars for GPL. >Why did I get addicted to modern F1? What was >I thinking?

The same thing I was probably (an easier sitting than GPL??...<g>). One thing I'm curious about, since you've tried GP3; do you still remember how GP3 Japan and Austria A-1 circuits were, compared to F12k? For me, F12k's Austria is a complete RUSH to drive! I'm almost into the high 1m12's (just a "few" seconds slower than the casual hot-lapper<g>). But track action is just great! Watching F1 on TV, it's very easy to see real F1 cars jumping around on poor surfaces. I think F12k modeled this extremely well. Same with Japan, it has some really challenging areas. The last chicane before the turn to the finish line is a -nasty- little spot! It's fun just "klunking" through there, much less getting it just right. Then I compared both circuits with a very nice GP2 trackpack, including Austria A-1, and it's just so "sleepy", and dull. It's so easy, I can look off and drink coffee while driving, look away from the screen for 2-4 seconds at a time (I can't do this with F12k). The GP2 track is flat, very few bumps, just "ride-the-driving-line". Same with GP2 Japan, it's more hilly than GP2's Austria (add-on), but the pavement is so dang smooth. Hard to explain I guess, maybe it's because the circuit has no bumps or abnormal surface to the track. Heheh, I find the last chicane at F1k2 Japan a whole lot tougher than GP2's. Even with F12k's tires "boing'n" around, it's the track-surfaces I have so much fun with, trying to handle it all. With GP2, it feels like I'm driving on a newly paved road (just too smooth). Anyway, -everything- I've said is based on the "blind assumption" that GP3's circuits (track surfaces) are still the same as GP2's. They could be more radical than F12k's for all I know. --- Other things observed in F12k; after races start (60 seconds later) or in practice, qualify, etc., I'm finding F12k A/I cars challenging, but -very- easy to get along with. The A/I cars seem to go out of their way, to "not" get in my way (i.e,. overtaking, the A/I is fine, as long as it's "fairly" obvious they're about to be passed). Also, if I go off-track, it seems all A/I drivers will make -every- effort to allow me on again, unless I'm just plain silly and blatantly pull out and get blasted (my fault). I did some short tests, as if stalled on the track, went to sky-view, then slowly moved the car around, then stopped in different areas (on the driving-line, a bit on the line, semi-sideways on the line, etc.). In most spots, all A/I cars made every effort to avoid hitting me. Yet if I was on the driving-line, but in a -high- speed blind-spot, they nailed me good! This shouldn't happen, but still the A/I does pretty well. I think GP3 would handle this better (GP2 does). If F12k gets another patch (it should!), I'd be happy to see the first 60 seconds of all race-starts calmed-down a bit. And some "fixing" so 2/3/4/5 A/I cars stop trying to enter certain slow-speed corners/chicanes, designed to handle one car (or "barely" 2) at a time. That, and a better digital wheel display. The numbers are so tiny I don't have enough time to get a good look at anything, unless hitting the pause button. I have a new add-on wheel-file, but the digital numbers are still too small. >Oh, one thing, GP3 has beyond state of the art weather! I know, and I have not seen GP3, but it still sounds as if GP3 is GP2 with weather and new graphics. If so, I won't get GP3, if driving has the same old "GP2-feel" to it, same track-surface types (so smooth), guided steering, etc. Wish there was a GP3 demo, I bet there won't be. Matt