USB vs. Game port.

Hello All, This last weekend I went to Chicago and Elkheart Lake for the CART races and spent some time with a GPL playing friend. He has little time to play the game and was looking to me for some advice on setups and the like. He owns a Logi USB FF wheel and an old TM pro wheel. Since he was using the TM pedals he had both units hooked to his computer. I tried to use the Logi and found that I was really having problems with it. I assumed that the problems were related to my not using FF at home and so I began to experiment with settings. After an hour or so I gave up and tried just using the Logi with FF effects turned off. I was still very uncomfortable with the wheel. From my prospective it felt like I was always "behind" the car. It was as though I was drunk and my reactions were very slow. Further, it felt like I was out of sync with the car's movement on screen. To say I was confused by this would be an understatement. I walked away for long think on the subject. Then I remembered that I felt the same thing recently when trying another friends TM Pro Digital USB wheel out. I remember thinking at the time that I just did not feel like it was as accurate in it's response as my old TM Pro analog wheel. I attributed it to his system and the fact I have a PDPI card at home. Armed with this idea I set up the old TM wheel on my Chicago friends system as the steering device replacing the Logi. Lo and behold, everything felt just fine!! I felt back in sync with the system and the car's movement on screen. BTW this was using the SB-live game port for input. I had my friend try it and he was shocked as well. He was immediately faster and smoother. Upon returning home I revisited my local friend and brought my old analog wheel over to his house today. The result was the same! The USB implementation seems to be the problem. Compared to the old Game Port or the PDPI, the USB seems to have a considerable delay built in. FF seems to have nothing to do with it. My conclusion is that USB has some real delay problems and is not the right way to go for GPL. Stick with the old game port or better yet get a PDPI and a good analog wheel. Larry Heir

"Larry Heir" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:RLho5.8868$[email hidden]... > My conclusion is that USB has some real delay problems and is not theright > way to go for GPL. Stick with the old game port or better yet get a PDPI > and a good analog wheel. I never noticed any difference when I went from my TM T2 to my LWFF. -- [email hidden]

Thanks for the reply Tim, but.... >USB has a higher bandwith than serial and so should have less "latency" Serial? A game port in not serial and the PDPI definatly is not.

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>. In GPL you can set the latency in core.ini. Reducing it give more >imdeadiate reactions. A high latency will give a delay from action to >reaction so you will feel like you are driving drunk. > >I set my latency ot 0.0045 but you'll have to mess around to get >settings that are right for you as the processor plays a part also. set >it too low and you will get "spikes" in the FF. >

I may have not mentioned it but I didsabled The FF as part of my fiddling around. I am not talking about FF effects. Also the TM Digital is not an FF wheel. >Some people have problems with the FF quiting out with USB but this is >solved by unselectin "poll with interupts" in the game controller >setting panel. > >Stick to USB it is better. So the manufactures say but I don't beleive the current implementations are better. I have run further tests and they just re-inforce my observations. Larry Heir

USB has a higher bandwith than serial and so should have less "latency" . In GPL you can set the latency in core.ini. Reducing it give more imdeadiate reactions. A high latency will give a delay from action to reaction so you will feel like you are driving drunk. I set my latency ot 0.0045 but you'll have to mess around to get settings that are right for you as the processor plays a part also. set it too low and you will get "spikes" in the FF. Some people have problems with the FF quiting out with USB but this is solved by unselectin "poll with interupts" in the game controller setting panel. Stick to USB it is better. Some Call Me Tim

Greg, Thanks for your reply.

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>> My conclusion is that USB has some real delay problems and is not the >right >> way to go for GPL. Stick with the old game port or better yet get a PDPI >> and a good analog wheel. > >I never noticed any difference when I went from my TM T2 to my >LWFF.

Did you try them back to back. I did not notice the difference until I did. Larry Heir

Of course bandwidth and latency are not the same. You can have high bandwidth and high latency theoretically (or look at Rambust :) Anyways, I've seen USB devices that are awesome and some that suck. (talking about more than just game controllers) I think that drivers can play a big part in this. If the USB device performs poorly often some updated drivers can help. Jim "Some Call Me Tim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:N6io5.647$[email hidden]... > USB has a higher bandwith than serial and so should have less "latency" .In

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> GPL you can set the latency in core.ini. Reducing it give more imdeadiate > reactions. A high latency will give a delay from action to reaction so you > will feel like you are driving drunk. > > I set my latency ot 0.0045 but you'll have to mess around to get settings > that are right for you as the processor plays a part also. set it too low > and you will get "spikes" in the FF. > > Some people have problems with the FF quiting out with USB but this is > solved by unselectin "poll with interupts" in the game controller setting > panel. > > Stick to USB it is better. > > Some Call Me Tim > >

On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 02:31:35 GMT, "Jim" <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >Anyways, I've seen USB devices that are awesome and some that suck. (talking >about more than just game controllers) I think that drivers can play a big >part in this. If the USB device performs poorly often some updated drivers >can help. Don't USB devices share bandwidth? So if you had a number of USB devices connected at once this could cause lag maybe? -- Nos

LARRY !! You should ask the right source ! <g> Ur problem is very simple, using game port and USB at the same time has nasty effect... the gameport is CPU demanding (it's all relative) and you add a USB on top of it... best solution is don't use the game port at all, that is hook the TM pedals to the LWFF wheel directly : Open the LWFF pedal assy , take a good look how the pots are soldered relative to each wire and do the exact same thing to the TM pedals, not only you'll cure ur problem, but with the LWFF game controller advanced menu, you'll be able to switch from combined to split axis at the touch of your mouse button.... I did a small diagram about this long time ago, guess you never browse my website aren't you ? Shame on you, since ur SRM Challenge member <g> Here's the direct link : http://simracingmag.gameloft.com/eric6.html That's off "SPY's CORNER" at SIM RACING MAG http://www.simracingmag.com Eric Larry Heir wrote:

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> Hello All, > > This last weekend I went to Chicago and Elkheart Lake for the CART races > and spent some time with a GPL playing friend. He has little time to play > the game and was looking to me for some advice on setups and the like. > > He owns a Logi USB FF wheel and an old TM pro wheel. Since he was using the > TM pedals he had both units hooked to his computer. I tried to use the Logi > and found that I was really having problems with it. I assumed that the > problems were related to my not using FF at home and so I began to > experiment with settings. After an hour or so I gave up and tried just > using the Logi with FF effects turned off. I was still very uncomfortable > with the wheel. > > From my prospective it felt like I was always "behind" the car. It was as > though I was drunk and my reactions were very slow. Further, it felt like I > was out of sync with the car's movement on screen. To say I was confused by > this would be an understatement. I walked away for long think on the > subject. > > Then I remembered that I felt the same thing recently when trying another > friends TM Pro Digital USB wheel out. I remember thinking at the time that > I just did not feel like it was as accurate in it's response as my old TM > Pro analog wheel. I attributed it to his system and the fact I have a PDPI > card at home. > > Armed with this idea I set up the old TM wheel on my Chicago friends system > as the steering device replacing the Logi. Lo and behold, everything felt > just fine!! I felt back in sync with the system and the car's movement on > screen. BTW this was using the SB-live game port for input. I had my friend > try it and he was shocked as well. He was immediately faster and smoother. > > Upon returning home I revisited my local friend and brought my old analog > wheel over to his house today. The result was the same! The USB > implementation seems to be the problem. Compared to the old Game Port or > the PDPI, the USB seems to have a considerable delay built in. FF seems to > have nothing to do with it. > > My conclusion is that USB has some real delay problems and is not the right > way to go for GPL. Stick with the old game port or better yet get a PDPI > and a good analog wheel. > > Larry Heir

no old TM wheel runs out off game port :0 [email hidden] wrote:

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> On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 02:31:35 GMT, "Jim" <[email hidden]> > thus spoke: > > >Anyways, I've seen USB devices that are awesome and some that suck. (talking > >about more than just game controllers) I think that drivers can play a big > >part in this. If the USB device performs poorly often some updated drivers > >can help. > > Don't USB devices share bandwidth? So if you had a number of USB > devices connected at once this could cause lag maybe? > -- > Nos

Eric, Hehe Eric - you could be right but.... >LARRY !! You should ask the right source ! <g> Ur problem is very >simple, using game port and USB at the same time has nasty effect... the >gameport is CPU demanding (it's all relative) and you add a USB on top >of it... best solution is don't use the game port at all, that is hook >the TM pedals to the LWFF wheel directly : I tested a TM Pro Digital tonight on my system and got the same result. So then I told the fellow in Chicago to try the Logitech with your wiring diagram. Same result. We both disabled the game port. The problem is not so much accuracy but with very quick movments of the wheel. Both USB wheels seem to lag when you quickly move them repeatedly. From my old days in Electronic control systems we called it "slew rate". BTW I am using the Windows HID driver for the TM Pro digital. The drivers from TM stink. >I did a small diagram about this long time ago, guess you never browse >my website aren't you ? Shame on you, since ur SRM Challenge member <g> > Yes I knew of you work with the Logitech. Excellent stuff but it has not solved the problem. One sugestion that we are still evaluating is the possible conflict with our USR 56k Modems which use the USB port as well. Not that this helps us much if it is the cause since we still want to race on line. Good try but I think this is a real situation. I am sticking with my TM pro analog and PDPI. But, I will continue to test. Thanks, Larry

Hi Larry, there's something else... either he has an IRQ conflict (sharring to be exact in WIN98) or he has installed those bloody drivers from TM (not those from the newest, but possibly old archaic... Again in SPY corner, there's a nice section about IRQ, how to clean the system up... Ohh I forgot, make sure he uses Directx 7.0a and the latest drivers for his LWFF, as for the bloody driver from TM, if it's the case, he'll have some fun removing them <G> Tell him to keep the wiring as it is (my wiring thingy) Eric http://www.simracingmag.com Larry Heir wrote:

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> Eric, > > Hehe Eric - you could be right but.... > > >LARRY !! You should ask the right source ! <g> Ur problem is very > >simple, using game port and USB at the same time has nasty effect... the > >gameport is CPU demanding (it's all relative) and you add a USB on top > >of it... best solution is don't use the game port at all, that is hook > >the TM pedals to the LWFF wheel directly : > > I tested a TM Pro Digital tonight on my system and got the same result. So > then I told the fellow in Chicago to try the Logitech with your wiring > diagram. Same result. We both disabled the game port. The problem is not so > much accuracy but with very quick movments of the wheel. Both USB wheels > seem to lag when you quickly move them repeatedly. From my old days in > Electronic control systems we called it "slew rate". > > BTW I am using the Windows HID driver for the TM Pro digital. The drivers > from TM stink. > > >I did a small diagram about this long time ago, guess you never browse > >my website aren't you ? Shame on you, since ur SRM Challenge member <g> > > > > Yes I knew of you work with the Logitech. Excellent stuff but it has not > solved the problem. One sugestion that we are still evaluating is the > possible conflict with our USR 56k Modems which use the USB port as well. > Not that this helps us much if it is the cause since we still want to race > on line. > > Good try but I think this is a real situation. I am sticking with my TM pro > analog and PDPI. But, I will continue to test. > > Thanks, > Larry

"Some Call Me Tim" <[email hidden]> writes: > USB has a higher bandwith than serial and so should have less "latency" . In > GPL you can set the latency in core.ini. Reducing it give more imdeadiate > reactions. A high latency will give a delay from action to reaction so you > will feel like you are driving drunk. The 'delay' in core.ini is not adding delay, it is compensating for delay in the force feedback. E.g. if there is a 20ms delay from a GPL FF command being sent to it being executed by the wheel, you should use delay=0.02. The compensation is done by predicting FF commands in advance which gets harder the larger 'delay' value you use, so you should use the lowest value that isn't resulting in noticable FF delays. (Note that we are talking about times here, values less than a couple of milliseconds [0.001-0.005] are for all practical purposes identical to zero.) _ Mats Lofkvist [email hidden] GPLRank -0.14

On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 00:52:34 -0400, Eric Cote <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >no old TM wheel runs out off game port :0 You said the USB wheel was laggy not the TM one. You have since said you have a USB modem too. -- Nos

On Mon, 21 Aug 2000 23:33:12 +0100, "Some Call Me Tim" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Some people have problems with the FF quiting out with USB but this is >solved by unselectin "poll with interupts" in the game controller setting >panel. You keep saying this and to put it in one word: "bollox" I have a ferrari FF, poll with interupts is off, i have no IRQ sharing goin on. And my FF quits on me regularly. Since reports say this doesn't happen when connecting the wheel to a serial port it seems logical that it's due to USB...or due to the guillemot drivers.. It's really starting to piss me off and i hope there will soon be drivers that fix this problem. cheers, Willem

I have a Ferrari FFB wheel using USB and I get no delay and no crashes - the drivers are fine on my system. I haven't even tried the serial connection with my wheel because the USB is so good. Perhaps its a motherboard USB driver problem. BTW, No one should EVER enable "poll with interupts..." its a failed attempt by Microsoft to overcome some of the shortcomings of the gameport (they even admit that it doesn't work). Cheers, Neil. "wsa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Mon, 21 Aug 2000 23:33:12 +0100, "Some Call Me Tim" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > >Some people have problems with the FF quiting out with USB but this is > >solved by unselectin "poll with interupts" in the game controller setting > >panel. > > You keep saying this and to put it in one word: "bollox" > I have a ferrari FF, poll with interupts is off, i have no IRQ sharing > goin on. > And my FF quits on me regularly. > Since reports say this doesn't happen when connecting the wheel to a > serial port it seems logical that it's due to USB...or due to the > guillemot drivers.. > It's really starting to piss me off and i hope there will soon be > drivers that fix this problem. > > cheers, > > Willem