Re: OK, Eldred. I've watched your replays

Jon Andersen <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:f9zp5.3650$[email hidden]... > I've watched you replays once, and here is the verdict from the Norwegian > jury: > > Not bad. Not bad at all. Smooth, clean and in control almost everywhere.The > line isn't too bad, though there are some early turn ins. Braking pointsare

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> on the safe side. > > You've got a potential for much faster laps than this. > > 1. You drive too carefully. > You are not driving on the edge. The tires are not squealing, i.e. you are > not using all the grip available. Your turn ins are too whimpy. You should > make a quicker and more decisive move when turning in. The front wheels > should point inside the apex for a moment when turning in. When done

right, > you should hear the tires squealing and achieve a slight four wheel drift > (preferably at the optimum slip angle). this enables you to accelerate > harder at corner exits. Watch G.Huttu's replay at Silverstone. Study his > entry to the second turn. Now, that's an aggressive turn in. At cornerexit > you can accelerate harder. There is too little tire squealing going onwhen > you drive. You drive like you have paid for the car. > > 2. Wrong choice of gears in the Lotus > I noticed that you used 1st gear too often in the Lotus. I rarely use 1st > gear in the Lotus. I use 1st at the start, and at 2 right hand corners at > Mosport. Using 1st gear is a waste of time in the Lotus. You'll eitherspin > or accelerate to slowly to avoid wheel spin. At Mosport, you used a toolow > gear all the time. Try a higher gear, and the car gets easier to handle,and > you lap times will probably improve. > > 3. Braking > Braking points are on the safe side. I suggest you keep it that way until > you are comfortable with more aggressive turn ins. Later on, you may wan't > to do something with your braking technique (as you grow familiar withleft

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> foot braking, you'll learn how to balance the car by using both pedals > simultaniously), but I see no immediate need for you to alter your braking > at this point. > > > Conclusion: > There is a potential for improvement. Slightly more risky driving will > improve lap times. If the tires don't squal, you are not on the edge. > > Someday, Eldred. Someday you will have a negative GPLRank. > > Keep on GPL-ing > > Jon Andersen >

I ask again..... why does Eldred get so much attention :-) He's got a 40 handicap or something, that makes him a GPL god in my books :-)

>I ask again..... why does Eldred get so much attention :-) > >He's got a 40 handicap or something, that makes him a GPL god in my books >:-) Because he's from Detroit.

I've watched you replays once, and here is the verdict from the Norwegian jury: Not bad. Not bad at all. Smooth, clean and in control almost everywhere. The line isn't too bad, though there are some early turn ins. Braking points are on the safe side. You've got a potential for much faster laps than this. 1. You drive too carefully. You are not driving on the edge. The tires are not squealing, i.e. you are not using all the grip available. Your turn ins are too whimpy. You should make a quicker and more decisive move when turning in. The front wheels should point inside the apex for a moment when turning in. When done right, you should hear the tires squealing and achieve a slight four wheel drift (preferably at the optimum slip angle). this enables you to accelerate harder at corner exits. Watch G.Huttu's replay at Silverstone. Study his entry to the second turn. Now, that's an aggressive turn in. At corner exit you can accelerate harder. There is too little tire squealing going on when you drive. You drive like you have paid for the car. 2. Wrong choice of gears in the Lotus I noticed that you used 1st gear too often in the Lotus. I rarely use 1st gear in the Lotus. I use 1st at the start, and at 2 right hand corners at Mosport. Using 1st gear is a waste of time in the Lotus. You'll either spin or accelerate to slowly to avoid wheel spin. At Mosport, you used a too low gear all the time. Try a higher gear, and the car gets easier to handle, and you lap times will probably improve. 3. Braking Braking points are on the safe side. I suggest you keep it that way until you are comfortable with more aggressive turn ins. Later on, you may wan't to do something with your braking technique (as you grow familiar with left foot braking, you'll learn how to balance the car by using both pedals simultaniously), but I see no immediate need for you to alter your braking at this point. Conclusion: There is a potential for improvement. Slightly more risky driving will improve lap times. If the tires don't squal, you are not on the edge. Someday, Eldred. Someday you will have a negative GPLRank. Keep on GPL-ing Jon Andersen

> I ask again..... why does Eldred get so much attention :-) > > He's got a 40 handicap or something, that makes him a GPL god in my books > :-) Eldred was the first slowpoke to come out of the closet. He gave the slowpokes a name. Besides, he has been driving GPL for 2 years, and is an asset to the GPL community by putting up 2 dedicated servers. The GPL community simply wouldn't be the same without Eldred. Jon Andersen

Jon Andersen <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:pFzp5.3665$[email hidden]... > > I ask again..... why does Eldred get so much attention :-) > > > > He's got a 40 handicap or something, that makes him a GPL god in mybooks

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> > :-) > > Eldred was the first slowpoke to come out of the closet. He gave the > slowpokes a name. Besides, he has been driving GPL for 2 years, and is an > asset to the GPL community by putting up 2 dedicated servers. > > The GPL community simply wouldn't be the same without Eldred. >

hehehe, ok :-) I think there were a lot more slowpokes around like myself, he was just the one who refused to give up his seat on the virtual bus, if you know what I mean :-) Support Eldredism....for a brighter, negative ranked future!!!! Yeah! P.S. I'd be willing to give a dedicated server if yiz all don't mind me doing it on a 33k modem....any takers? :-)

In article <k6Wp5.1919$[email hidden]>, "Roger Squires" <[email hidden]> writes: >So where are these replays ? > In the binaries group, under 'need help with laptimes', or something like that... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +51.31 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <f9zp5.3650$[email hidden]>, "Jon Andersen" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>I've watched you replays once, and here is the verdict from the Norwegian >jury: > >Not bad. Not bad at all. Smooth, clean and in control almost everywhere. The >line isn't too bad, though there are some early turn ins. Braking points are >on the safe side. > >You've got a potential for much faster laps than this.

*Much* faster? Let me guess - you're an optimist, right? :)

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> >1. You drive too carefully. >You are not driving on the edge. The tires are not squealing, i.e. you are >not using all the grip available. Your turn ins are too whimpy. You should >make a quicker and more decisive move when turning in. The front wheels >should point inside the apex for a moment when turning in. When done right, >you should hear the tires squealing and achieve a slight four wheel drift >(preferably at the optimum slip angle). this enables you to accelerate >harder at corner exits. Watch G.Huttu's replay at Silverstone. Study his >entry to the second turn. Now, that's an aggressive turn in. At corner exit >you can accelerate harder. There is too little tire squealing going on when >you drive. You drive like you have paid for the car. >

LOL! I like that line...

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>2. Wrong choice of gears in the Lotus >I noticed that you used 1st gear too often in the Lotus. I rarely use 1st >gear in the Lotus. I use 1st at the start, and at 2 right hand corners at >Mosport. Using 1st gear is a waste of time in the Lotus. You'll either spin >or accelerate to slowly to avoid wheel spin. At Mosport, you used a too low >gear all the time. Try a higher gear, and the car gets easier to handle, and >you lap times will probably improve.

Do you mean just don't drop to 1st, or raise every turn's lowest gear by 1? > >Conclusion: >There is a potential for improvement. Slightly more risky driving will >improve lap times. If the tires don't squal, you are not on the edge. It certainly FEELS like I'm on the edge. If I'm not, then why do I crash when I try something different? > >Someday, Eldred. Someday you will have a negative GPLRank.If you *say* so... > >Keep on GPL-ing > >Jon Andersen Thanks, Jon. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +51.31 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <8o6g8k$rok$[email hidden]>, "9Wright7" <[email hidden]> writes: >I ask again..... why does Eldred get so much attention :-) > >He's got a 40 handicap or something, that makes him a GPL god in my books >:-) > It's a looong story, 9. Uh, can I call you 9? :) Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +51.31 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <pFzp5.3665$[email hidden]>, "Jon Andersen" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>> I ask again..... why does Eldred get so much attention :-) >> >> He's got a 40 handicap or something, that makes him a GPL god in my books >> :-) > >Eldred was the first slowpoke to come out of the closet. He gave the >slowpokes a name. Besides, he has been driving GPL for 2 years, and is an >asset to the GPL community by putting up 2 dedicated servers. > >The GPL community simply wouldn't be the same without Eldred. >

Sure, it would. You'd just have one less rolling obstacle to pass on the track...<g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +51.31 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

No!!! Now you're making the St Eldreds cup a harder target to hit!!! =P Kirk Lane [email hidden] Jon Andersen <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:f9zp5.3650$[email hidden]... > I've watched you replays once, and here is the verdict from the Norwegian > jury: > > Not bad. Not bad at all. Smooth, clean and in control almost everywhere.The > line isn't too bad, though there are some early turn ins. Braking pointsare

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> on the safe side. > > You've got a potential for much faster laps than this. > > 1. You drive too carefully. > You are not driving on the edge. The tires are not squealing, i.e. you are > not using all the grip available. Your turn ins are too whimpy. You should > make a quicker and more decisive move when turning in. The front wheels > should point inside the apex for a moment when turning in. When done

right, > you should hear the tires squealing and achieve a slight four wheel drift > (preferably at the optimum slip angle). this enables you to accelerate > harder at corner exits. Watch G.Huttu's replay at Silverstone. Study his > entry to the second turn. Now, that's an aggressive turn in. At cornerexit > you can accelerate harder. There is too little tire squealing going onwhen > you drive. You drive like you have paid for the car. > > 2. Wrong choice of gears in the Lotus > I noticed that you used 1st gear too often in the Lotus. I rarely use 1st > gear in the Lotus. I use 1st at the start, and at 2 right hand corners at > Mosport. Using 1st gear is a waste of time in the Lotus. You'll eitherspin > or accelerate to slowly to avoid wheel spin. At Mosport, you used a toolow > gear all the time. Try a higher gear, and the car gets easier to handle,and > you lap times will probably improve. > > 3. Braking > Braking points are on the safe side. I suggest you keep it that way until > you are comfortable with more aggressive turn ins. Later on, you may wan't > to do something with your braking technique (as you grow familiar withleft

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> foot braking, you'll learn how to balance the car by using both pedals > simultaniously), but I see no immediate need for you to alter your braking > at this point. > > > Conclusion: > There is a potential for improvement. Slightly more risky driving will > improve lap times. If the tires don't squal, you are not on the edge. > > Someday, Eldred. Someday you will have a negative GPLRank. > > Keep on GPL-ing > > Jon Andersen > >

<snip> >2. Wrong choice of gears in the Lotus > >I noticed that you used 1st gear too often in the Lotus. I rarely use 1st > >gear in the Lotus. I use 1st at the start, and at 2 right hand corners at > >Mosport. Using 1st gear is a waste of time in the Lotus. You'll eitherspin > >or accelerate to slowly to avoid wheel spin. At Mosport, you used a toolow > >gear all the time. Try a higher gear, and the car gets easier to handle,and > >you lap times will probably improve. > > Do you mean just don't drop to 1st, or raise every turn's lowest gear by1? <snip> Actually, both. A highly skillfull player would probably benefit from using lower gears because of the better acceleration, but for the rest of us the better acceleration usually makes us spin, thus we should use higher gears. Jon Andersen

EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <8o6g8k$rok$[email hidden]>, "9Wright7" <[email hidden]>writes:

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> > >I ask again..... why does Eldred get so much attention :-) > > > >He's got a 40 handicap or something, that makes him a GPL god in my books > >:-) > > > > It's a looong story, 9. Uh, can I call you 9? :) >

You can call me anything you want if I can have your handicap :-)

So where are these replays ? rms [email hidden]

In article <i3bq5.4203$[email hidden]>, "�ke Larsson" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Some numbers from GPL replay analyser; gearchange analyser: >Kyalami: >Huttu: 1.19,087, 8 gearchanges >Larsson: 1.23,158, 10 gearchanges >Pickett: 1.23,394, 12 gearchanges >Mosport: >Knops: 1.19,087, 12 gearchanges >Larsson: 1.25,621, 14 gearchanges >Pickett: 1.28,336, 20 gearchanges >Zandvoort: >Grandis: 1.22,328, 8 gearchanges >Larsson: 1.28,591, 10 gearchanges >Pickett: 1.30,701, 19 gearchanges >The pattern here seems to suggest that "less is more".

Interesting theory... >I don't know what setups you are using, but I recommend you to DL Huttu's >http://www.kolumbus.fi/ghuttu/ >and try them out or at least take a close look at the gear ratios.I have tried The Alien's setups. Most undriveable for me - I don't see how he does it...

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>Personally I keep a safe distance to the ones beginning with "GH2", (45/60 >diff is something I won't be able to handle for a long time yet!) but the >ones >with just "GH" are older versions more suited for amateurs like myself. >My best times are close to yours at most tracks but for Spa and the Ring, >but the replays look a lot different. I'm all over the place where you seem >to >be well in control. I can't but agree with Jon, you drive too carefully! >"A squealing tire is a happy tire".

It's amazing that both you AND Jon seem to think that I'm well in control. To me, I'm just *barely* hanging on...<g> >A bit less downshifting and a bit more aggression will surely bring new >pb's. >Never surrender! >�ke >Ok, since I have to go so slow in the corners, not shifting to 1st would bog the engine. I'm sure that would hurt my times, too... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +51.31 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <JN7q5.2221$[email hidden]>, "Roger Squires" <[email hidden]> writes: >Anyway you can put up spa and nurb replays on a website? My newsserver >doesn't get that group. >try this: http://www.umich.edu/~epickett/files/ep_laps.zip It has my PB lapsfrom all 11 tracks(or a lap withn .5 sec of PB). It's about 1.8MB. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +51.31 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Anyway you can put up spa and nurb replays on a website? My newsserver doesn't get that group. rms [email hidden]

"Jon Andersen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:YcSp5.4031$[email hidden]... > <snip> > >2. Wrong choice of gears in the Lotus > > >I noticed that you used 1st gear too often in the Lotus. I rarely use1st > > >gear in the Lotus. I use 1st at the start, and at 2 right hand cornersat > > >Mosport. Using 1st gear is a waste of time in the Lotus. You'll either > spin > > >or accelerate to slowly to avoid wheel spin. At Mosport, you used a too > low > > >gear all the time. Try a higher gear, and the car gets easier tohandle,

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> and > > >you lap times will probably improve. > > > > Do you mean just don't drop to 1st, or raise every turn's lowest gear by > 1? > <snip> > > Actually, both. A highly skillfull player would probably benefit from

using > lower gears because of the better acceleration, but for the rest of us the > better acceleration usually makes us spin, thus we should use highergears. > > Jon Andersen >Some numbers from GPL replay analyser; gearchange analyser: Kyalami: Huttu: 1.19,087, 8 gearchanges Larsson: 1.23,158, 10 gearchanges Pickett: 1.23,394, 12 gearchanges Mosport: Knops: 1.19,087, 12 gearchanges Larsson: 1.25,621, 14 gearchanges Pickett: 1.28,336, 20 gearchanges Zandvoort: Grandis: 1.22,328, 8 gearchanges Larsson: 1.28,591, 10 gearchanges Pickett: 1.30,701, 19 gearchanges The pattern here seems to suggest that "less is more". I don't know what setups you are using, but I recommend you to DL Huttu's http://www.kolumbus.fi/ghuttu/ and try them out or at least take a close look at the gear ratios. Personally I keep a safe distance to the ones beginning with "GH2", (45/60 diff is something I won't be able to handle for a long time yet!) but the ones with just "GH" are older versions more suited for amateurs like myself. My best times are close to yours at most tracks but for Spa and the Ring, but the replays look a lot different. I'm all over the place where you seem to be well in control. I can't but agree with Jon, you drive too carefully! "A squealing tire is a happy tire". A bit less downshifting and a bit more aggression will surely bring new pb's. Never surrender! �ke

<snip> > Ok, since I have to go so slow in the corners, not shifting to 1st wouldbog > the engine. I'm sure that would hurt my times, too... > > Eldred<snip> Not in the Lotus. The Lotus has quite a bit of torque available at lower revs. With the exception of 1 turn at Mosport and at the start of a race, there is really no need to use 1st gear. It will only make the wheels spin. Jon Andersen

Jon Andersen <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:YcSp5.4031$[email hidden]... > <snip> > >2. Wrong choice of gears in the Lotus > > >I noticed that you used 1st gear too often in the Lotus. I rarely use1st > > >gear in the Lotus. I use 1st at the start, and at 2 right hand cornersat > > >Mosport. Using 1st gear is a waste of time in the Lotus. You'll either > spin > > >or accelerate to slowly to avoid wheel spin. At Mosport, you used a too > low > > >gear all the time. Try a higher gear, and the car gets easier tohandle,

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> and > > >you lap times will probably improve. > > > > Do you mean just don't drop to 1st, or raise every turn's lowest gear by > 1? > <snip> > > Actually, both. A highly skillfull player would probably benefit from

using > lower gears because of the better acceleration, but for the rest of us the > better acceleration usually makes us spin, thus we should use highergears. > > Jon Andersen Yeah, I'm not too fast but i find that the faster guys keep it a gear higher. I took the first corner at Kylami in 1st for 2 years, Now I'd jsut lock up and spin out if I did it, you need to go a gear higher and make the car 4-wheel drift more to keep the revs up.... works great when done right. I still don't dare this technique in Nurburg :-)

In article <[email hidden]>, Uncle Fester <[email hidden]> writes:

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>EldredP wrote: >> Ok, since I have to go so slow in the corners, not shifting to 1st would >bog >> the engine. I'm sure that would hurt my times, too... >> > > >Or reduce wheelspin on exit = better time.

I tried that yesterday. I lowered my PB by about .5 second. Not exactly the improvement I'd hoped for... :( That jump near the end kills me 50% of the time... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +50.77 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <IQeq5.4899$[email hidden]>, "Jon Andersen" <[email hidden]> writes:

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><snip> >> Ok, since I have to go so slow in the corners, not shifting to 1st would >bog >> the engine. I'm sure that would hurt my times, too... >> >> Eldred ><snip> > >Not in the Lotus. The Lotus has quite a bit of torque available at lower >revs. With the exception of 1 turn at Mosport and at the start of a race, >there is really no need to use 1st gear. It will only make the wheels spin. > >Jon Andersen >

Ok, but if I do that I'll have to 're-learn' how much to brake. Since I can't get a feel for speed in the slow corners by sight, I go by sound. In a higher gear, the sound at the correct speed will be very different... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +51.31 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EldredP wrote: > Ok, since I have to go so slow in the corners, not shifting to 1st would bog > the engine. I'm sure that would hurt my times, too... > Or reduce wheelspin on exit = better time. -- Chuck Kandler Windows--computing for the Unwashed Masses Registered Linux User #180746 http://counter.li.org

In article <[email hidden]>, EldredP <[email hidden]> writes <snip>

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> >>Personally I keep a safe distance to the ones beginning with "GH2", (45/60 >>diff is something I won't be able to handle for a long time yet!) but the >>ones >>with just "GH" are older versions more suited for amateurs like myself. >>My best times are close to yours at most tracks but for Spa and the Ring, >>but the replays look a lot different. I'm all over the place where you seem >>to >>be well in control. I can't but agree with Jon, you drive too carefully! >>"A squealing tire is a happy tire". > >It's amazing that both you AND Jon seem to think that I'm well in control. To >me, I'm just *barely* hanging on...<g> >

Hehe, Eldred you old smoothy. I remember telling you the same thing over a year ago when I first saw a reply of yours at Monza in the Ferrari. You DO (or should say did as I haven't seen your current replays) look smooth and well under control when taking corners, so it seems almost impossible to imagine that all that smoothness is about to degenerate into one big accident if you try to push it just a little bit more. It just looks like you've got so much in hand that I personally cannot conceive where it is that you're most likely to come a cropper and that's what makes it personally difficult in telling you what you should be concentrating on the most. If you were doing something obviously wrong then I'm sure the guys here could point this out to you pretty quickly. Perhaps you should try some more ragged (kamikaze driving if you like) and then let us have a look at those. If we could see those then maybe we would be able to spot where it is that things are most likely to go wrong (your most obvious mistakes). We've seen your best now let's see when you're all over the shop, warts and all if you like. What do you say? :) <disclaimer> Can't promise anything, mind. </disclaimer> <snip> -- Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying No person's opinions can be said to be more correct than another's, because each is the sole judge of his or her own experience.

In article <[email hidden]>, Peter Ives <[email hidden]> writes:

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>If you were doing something obviously wrong then I'm sure the guys here >could point this out to you pretty quickly. Perhaps you should try some >more ragged (kamikaze driving if you like) and then let us have a look >at those. If we could see those then maybe we would be able to spot >where it is that things are most likely to go wrong (your most obvious >mistakes). We've seen your best now let's see when you're all over the >shop, warts and all if you like. What do you say? :)

Maybe. That could prove more embarrassing than just being SLOW...<g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +50.77 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <8o6qnm$vhb$[email hidden]>, "9Wright7" <[email hidden]>writes:

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> > >Jon Andersen <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:pFzp5.3665$[email hidden]... > >> > I ask again..... why does Eldred get so much attention :-) > >> > > >> > He's got a 40 handicap or something, that makes him a GPL god in my > >books > >> > :-) > >> > >> Eldred was the first slowpoke to come out of the closet. He gave the > >> slowpokes a name. Besides, he has been driving GPL for 2 years, and is

an

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> >> asset to the GPL community by putting up 2 dedicated servers. > >> > >> The GPL community simply wouldn't be the same without Eldred. > >> > > > >hehehe, ok :-) > >I think there were a lot more slowpokes around like myself, he was just

the > >one who refused to give up his seat on the virtual bus, if you know whatI

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> >mean :-) > > > >Support Eldredism....for a brighter, negative ranked future!!!! Yeah! > > Puh-lease - this has gone too far...it's downright embarrassing...<g> > I'm not supplying servers purely out of the goodness of my heart. I just > happen to have a T3 connection at work, so I thought I'd help. It doesn't

cost > me anything to run them. If it did, I certainly wouldn't be doing it. Idon't > see it as being any 'asset to the GPL community', but that's just me. > Thanks anyway. > I wasn't being sarcastic if you thought I was.... I'd certainly like to be worshiped.... "wrighty-ism"? Naw, doesn't have that ring to it :-)

In article <8p3i0f$qr$[email hidden]>, "9Wright7" <[email hidden]> writes: >I wasn't being sarcastic if you thought I was.... I'd certainly like to be >worshiped.... "wrighty-ism"? Naw, doesn't have that ring to it :-) > No, I didn't think you were being sarcastic. I'm just embarassed... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +50.77 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.