Difficulty Level of Sims

Just some rambling thoughts here... I just think it's funny how people will disagree about the realism of any given physics model based on their perception of its difficulty level. For any given sim there are four different factions: 1. People who think the sim is difficult, and therefore realistic. 2. People who think the sim is easy, and therefore realistic. 3. People who think the sim is difficult, and therefore unrealistic. 4. People who think the sim is easy, and therefore unrealistic. I've noticed that with GP3, just as many people seem to complain about it being too easy as do complain about it being too difficult. Funny how they never argue with eachother, since they all agree that it's unrealistic. :) Personally, I think it's a bit harder to find the limit in GP3 than in GPL, but that's not what matters to me as far as physics realism goes. I think difficulty level is usually a reflection of your own driving style rather than the physics model. If you crash too much, you're pushing too hard, if you never crash you might not be pushing hard enough. This does not apply to blatantly arcadish games, of course. Just my $0.02 on our favorite debate. -A

ymenard <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:tM2q5.1306$[email hidden]... > "rrevved" <[email hidden]> wrote > > IT WAS SHOWN POSSIBLE, SO IT IS. >I saw it on TV and that makes it so (Wag the Dog). How do you know it wasn't just a good editing job?

ymenard wrote...

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> <snip> > > Jan.. this might surprise many.<snip> > > The last one was a full blast high revs start where > he mashed the gas at full throttle. And you know what? > The driver behind the wheel of the Jordan kept his feet > floored all the way (it had a camera pointing at the > pedals), didn't lift at all, not a hint. "Pedal to the > metal, they would call it.

No shit! -I am surprised! I knew about number one and two, but number three.... that has got to mean redlining the engine for about 5-10 seconds for an F1. Doesn't the rev limiter kill the wheelspin? > And the car showed no tendency to get loose, or slide > with the rears. He did minimal correction, not more > than 10degrees left and right on the wheel. That figures, I've seen the F1 guys do that a number of times. I just thought they were modulating the throttle as well. > So why do the real-life drivers try to avoid spinning > up the rears? It was the slowest method of > accelerating between the 3, taking more time than the > others. My question was rethoric. ;-) > Well it's just another reason why Gp3 is flawled :) Nah, it's just another manifestation of it's basic shortcoming. ;-) Jan. =---

Simon Brown wrote... > I suspect the people who think GP3 is easy are either > playing on the keys, or using some of the driving aids, > or both. On a proper anologue controller, with *all* > the driving aids turned off (including the ones in the > controllers setup, like anti-lock help), GP3 is not easy. Unfortunately, even given the conditions outlined by your good self, it is. Insultingly so in fact, IMO. And, like I said before, I'm not all that good a simracer. > The thing that makes me feel GP3 doesn't reach the highest > levels of realism, is that you can't do proper wheelspin > starts without lifting the throttle, you can't just floor > the throttle and hope to keep the car straight with just > the wheel. Explain what a proper wheelspin start is (your current description equals a blown engine before T1) and, while you're at it, tell me why the real guys to great lengths to avoid spinning up the rears (as far as outright cheating). True, it's extremely difficult if not impossible to keep it "on the tires" or to allow road speed to catch up while simply correcting with the wheel in GP3, but that's another matter altogether. Possibly linked to inadequate depth or rate of simulation, but I could get into trouble by saying so here. ;-) > Also when you lift-off to catch spins, it feels canned. > The reaction of the car doesn't seem dynamic. If you > over-correct, and have to correct the correction, the > cars can end up oscillating back and forwards about it's > centre-point. I didn't find much wrong with the spins themselves, other than you can get away with a compound error such as lifting off. "Tankslappers" are a very real part of driving a "high response, high gain" car, something GP3 manages to portray. That said, to me the car feels "dead" all the time, not just when things go astray. > Still, you don't notice these deficiencies > very often, and GP3 is still tremendous fun to play. Individual occurances are few, but the flaws are many. <g> Jan. =---

I suspect the people who think GP3 is easy are either playing on the keys, or using some of the driving aids, or both. On a proper anologue controller, with *all* the driving aids turned off (including the ones in the controllers setup, like anti-lock help), GP3 is not easy. The thing that makes me feel GP3 doesn't reach the highest levels of realism, is that you can't do proper wheelspin starts without lifting the throttle, you can't just floor the throttle and hope to keep the car straight with just the wheel. Also when you lift-off to catch spins, it feels canned. The reaction of the car doesn't seem dynamic. If you over-correct, and have to correct the correction, the cars can end up oscillating back and forwards about it's centre-point. Still, you don't notice these deficiencies very often, and GP3 is still tremendous fun to play. "Aubrey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:rVSp5.1089$[email hidden]...

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> Just some rambling thoughts here... > > I just think it's funny how people will disagree about the realism of any > given physics model based on their perception of its difficulty level. > > For any given sim there are four different factions: > 1. People who think the sim is difficult, and therefore realistic. > 2. People who think the sim is easy, and therefore realistic. > 3. People who think the sim is difficult, and therefore unrealistic. > 4. People who think the sim is easy, and therefore unrealistic. > > I've noticed that with GP3, just as many people seem to complain about it > being too easy as do complain about it being too difficult. Funny how

they > never argue with eachother, since they all agree that it's unrealistic.:) > > Personally, I think it's a bit harder to find the limit in GP3 than inGPL, > but that's not what matters to me as far as physics realism goes. I think > difficulty level is usually a reflection of your own driving style rather > than the physics model. If you crash too much, you're pushing too hard,if

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> you never crash you might not be pushing hard enough. This does not apply > to blatantly arcadish games, of course. > > Just my $0.02 on our favorite debate. > > -A > >

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote > Explain what a proper wheelspin start is (your current description equalsa > blown engine before T1) and, while you're at it, tell me why the real guys > to great lengths to avoid spinning up the rears (as far as outright > cheating). Jan.. this might surprise many. I was watching the "Road to the F1 Indy GP" on Speedvision today and one of the show's section was about Formula 1 starts. Basically it showed you (very in-dept actually and I was very surprised to see how serious it was) the 3 types of starts in F1. One of them was called the "granny start", where you simply upped the revs correctly by dropping the clutch fast. It was found the fastest way but also the easiest to stall. In fact he stalled a couple of times :) The second was a normal start where you take out the clutch much slower and keep the revs in medium range, while spinning the tyres. The last one was a full blast high revs start where he mashed the gas at full throttle. And you know what? The driver behind the Jordant kept his feet flored all the way (it had a camera pointing on the pedals), didn't lift at all, not a hint. "Pedal to the metal, they would call it. And the car showed no tendency to get loose, or slide with the rears. He did minimal correction, not more than 10degrees left and right on the wheel. So why do the real-life drivers try to avoid spinning up the rears? It was the slowest method of accelerating between the 3, taking more time than the others. Well it's just another reason why Gp3 is flawled :) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

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>I just think it's funny how people will disagree about the realism of any >given physics model based on their perception of its difficulty level. > >For any given sim there are four different factions: >1. People who think the sim is difficult, and therefore realistic. >2. People who think the sim is easy, and therefore realistic. >3. People who think the sim is difficult, and therefore unrealistic. >4. People who think the sim is easy, and therefore unrealistic. > >I've noticed that with GP3, just as many people seem to complain about it >being too easy as do complain about it being too difficult. Funny how they >never argue with eachother, since they all agree that it's unrealistic. :) > >Personally, I think it's a bit harder to find the limit in GP3 than in GPL, >but that's not what matters to me as far as physics realism goes. I think >difficulty level is usually a reflection of your own driving style rather >than the physics model. If you crash too much, you're pushing too hard, if >you never crash you might not be pushing hard enough. This does not apply >to blatantly arcadish games, of course.

A good observation. In real life an average person could probably drive a modern F1 car with less effort at any given speed than they could a 1967 F1 car. Does that mean that it would be easy to drive a modern F1 at its limits ? I doubt it.

"rrevved" <[email hidden]> wrote > >The thing that makes me feel GP3 doesn't reach the highest levels of > >realism, is that you can't do proper wheelspin starts without lifting the > >throttle, you can't just floor the throttle and hope to keep the car > >straight with just the wheel. > > Nor can any real-life F1 driver. Yes, they can. Read my post in this thread. The driver floored the Jordan F1 car from the pole position at Silverstone all the way into turn 1, without ever lifting. Simply controlled the car's wiggling (which was very small) with little corrections not more than 10degrees each side of the steering's axis. The exterior view of the car (it was a split image with in-car, external and pedal shots) had incredible smoke, incredible wheel spin but HE KEPT IT FLOORED. So yes, they can. Any F1 "racing" simulation (where the accent is put on the possibility of the virtual driver to be as good as the real-life one) should be that the driver can keep it floored with minimal correction and not spin. Any F1 "driving" simulation should make us spin, as we are far inferior as a majority in talent compared to a real-life F1 driver. I consider GP3 a "racing" sim. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

"rrevved" <[email hidden]> wrote > >The driver floored the Jordan F1 car from the pole position atSilverstone > >all the way into turn 1, without ever lifting. > > Frank, have you actually ever SEEN a F1 race? I have. Well duh yes. I've been to an F1 race for the past 7-8 years. Don't under-estimate my knowledge. > What, exactly, do you think would happen if an F1 driver simply > revved the engine, dropped the clutch and held the throttle > to the floor from a standing start? As this exact same situation you write above was replicated in the show and can be stated as a fact (an F1 car doesn't lie when you want to talk about Formula 1), then I can easily say that an F1 driver easily can keep it on a straight line. The driver did, and his foot was clearly all the way down, without a hint of him lifting. You had a friggin camera pointing at the pedals for Christ's sake! You could hear the revs staying up all the way, without dropping. You could see the driver without any trouble go in a straight line. > If you say they can continue to stand on the throttle without the car > violently slewing or (most likely) tires burning down to the rim in a > cloud of tire smoke while moving forward at a -much- reduced speed, > then your credibility with me, is just about zero. Another time, it was clearly shown that it's indeed possible. The Jordan F1 driver demonstrated it and he was finished about 20feet behind the two other attempts. Darn your living into your own world that can't accept reality. IT WAS SHOWN POSSIBLE, SO IT IS. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

The driver floored the Jordan F1 car from the pole position at Silverstone | all the way into turn 1, without ever lifting. Simply controlled thecar's | wiggling (which was very small) with little corrections not more than | 10degrees each side of the steering's axis. If this is the same thing they showed on itv F1 a few months back then the driver was Martin Brundle demonstrating the granny start, controled start, and boy racer start in a Jordan, and no he didn't need to correct with the wheel very much on the boy racer start. -- Cheers, Robin Lord - Trance DJ & Sim Racer. http://www.oppositelock.co.uk N�rburgring and Grand Prix Legends

And then you go and write *this* ... Like I said, you never fail to surprise me, one way or another. This would be "another"... BB ymenard wrote: > > Well duh yes. I've been to an F1 race for the past 7-8 years. Don't > under-estimate my knowledge.t

On Sun, 27 Aug 2000 06:43:37 GMT, "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote: >The driver did, and his foot was clearly all the way down, without a hint >of him lifting. You had a friggin camera pointing at the pedals for >Christ's sake! You could hear the revs staying up all the way, without >dropping. You could see the driver without any trouble go in a >straight line. Nice, but aren't you forgetting something here? THE CLUTCH!!! Mika Salo was explaining this today before the race, and he clearly emphacised that the clutch is the most prominant tool in getting a good start, not wheel corrections or adjusting throttle.

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote > No shit! -I am surprised! I was too. It was the last situation shown, and I my jaw just dropped. > I knew about number one and two, but number three.... that has got to mean > redlining the engine for about 5-10 seconds for an F1. Doesn't the rev > limiter kill the wheelspin? That's the most incredible thing. It kept going "WAAAAAAAHHHHHAAAH" until the speed catched up with the revs and he shifted to second gear, while always keeping his pedal floored.

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> > So why do the real-life drivers try to avoid spinning > > up the rears? It was the slowest method of > > accelerating between the 3, taking more time than the > > others. > > My question was rethoric. ;-) > > > Well it's just another reason why Gp3 is flawled :) > > Nah, it's just another manifestation of it's basic shortcoming. ;-)

Lol that's a much better way to say that, yes ;-) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

"Todd Dry" <[email hidden]> wrote > I saw it on TV and that makes it so (Wag the Dog). How do you know itwasn't > just a good editing job? Yes Todd, it's a conspiracy theory. It was done for the single-purpose of creating threads on the newsgroup : rec.autos.simulators. Some BBC producers did a meeting and came to the conclusion that people on r.a.s. need to be shown that F1's don't slide sideways under normal straightened acceleration. Actually it's EA Sports who produced the show so they can dumb-down their next F1 title. This way rec.autos.simulators citizen won't be able to whine to the company on "how easy you can floor it and not loose the car". <vbg> -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

Aubrey wrote (among other things)... > If you crash too much, you're pushing too hard, if > you never crash you might not be pushing hard enough. FWIW, that reminds me of something Emerson Fittipaldi said once, when he was asked what appealed to him most about racing. His answer was something like "You've got a corner that's designed to be taken at 125. If you take it at 127, you're into the wall. If you take it at 123, you finish third. Being able to take it at 125 every time is what makes racing exciting."