Re: Nascar Heat: a big 'boo' for the installer...

I'm glad to hear that Sierra finally dropped the "Sierra Utilities"--I had to write the installer for Viper Racing, and it sure was a pain in the ass having to start with this buggy, boroque Sierra Template and being forced to shove Sierra Utilities all over the start menu... so kudos for that, Sierra... Now, I feel like I must address our own installer issues... I realize that it's annoying for some of the files to be in a fixed position, but I'd thought I'd at least give some explanation as to why this is the case. First of all, our big plan was to have the game "play directly off the CD", so it would be an install-free process. We actually had planned to do this with Viper, but because so many CD-ROMs of the era were so slow (e.g., so-called 12X or 24X CDROMS that would actually have only 300-600 KB transfer rates, etc) plus Sierra's requirements (primarily the former, so don't blame Sierra). This is why we bundled all our stuff in to somewhat few resource files, not because we have something against hackers! The main cause of slow CD access is too many seeks, so we optimized for extended single reads. Anyway, because of this, we had to automatically choose a place to keep configuration data--actually, in Microsoft's installation guidelines (which they often ignore themselves) the correct place for this data is in Program Files\Company Name\Product Name... they even tell you to create the Program Files directory if none exists... Now later on, we figured we had to have an option to "cache" the data on the hard-drive, but because of the "install-free" process, this would typically happen after the user has ran the program several times--perhaps we should have, after they specified a new location, copied all of their configuration data to somewhere else, but it gets tricky if they saved their own replays, setups, etc... So anywise, we figured that because a relatively small amount of data is stored on the Program Files directory, that it wouldn't be too big of a deal... We were aiming for of a playstation-style experience--just pop in the CD and go. I think that Microsoft has plans to give OS support for that style, with a games manager, where I believe the user could globally choose where games would put their stuff, plus have a way for games to "compact" themselves after not being used in a while, etc... To sum up, I apologize for all who are annoyed by the behavior of the installer, and I can't even foist any blame on Hasbro--all they required was that "Hasbro Interactive" be in the default path, and of course the electronic registration/eula stuff. However, since we only keep a few very small datafiles there, I would say this is more of an "aesthetic" problem than actually screwing over people with small C partitions. All I can hope is that I never have to write another %^%$ installer again... et cetera, Dave P. MGI David Erb wrote in message ...

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>Good news , Eric. The forced SU install was irritating indeed as was the >neccessity of the leadoff Sierra directory. I appreciate that the >powers-that-be at Sierra took the right step (which must have been hard >,given the prevailing marketeering ethos of plastering your name all over >the place) > >David > >"Eric Busch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:8o7h8s$b4p$[email hidden]... >> Actually while there are some restrictions in the Sierra installer >template >> (i.e. not allowing an install to the system root or Windows directories), >> the leading Sierra directory in the path is no longer among them.

Nascar3

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>> and Nascar Legends suggested a Papyrus directory in the default path, and >> the user was free to change this if they so desired. Additionally the >> Sierra Utilities program is no longer included, though the common >electronic >> registration and auto-update programs (~1MB) are installed in "c:\program >> files\sierra on-line". >> >> -- >> Eric >> >> "rrevved" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:[email hidden]... >> > Sounds as if Hasbro is trying to mimic Sierra, who forces a folder >> > name of SIERRA\GPL etc. and slams their utilities on your >> > hard drive whether you want them or not. >> >> > >

On Sat, 26 Aug 2000 12:29:57 GMT, [email hidden] wrote: >That's the total space you have or what's left? I assume you don't put >the swap file on C:. There are about 30MB free (Win98FE), the fixed size swap file sits indeed at the second HD. JanL

On Sat, 26 Aug 2000 06:15:22 GMT, [email hidden] wrote: >I hate that too. But, at least Sierra puts everyting on the drive you >choose. I never put games on C: drive and have deliberately limited >the space on C: to 2gb. Hehe, my C: is only 256 MB, now *that* keeps the OS lean and clean. :) If only there weren't such stupid install programs like this one. :-( JanL

In the options.cfg file under [global] make sure the no_video line reads yes: no_video yes For those who haven't figured it out yet, most of your files are in the 'c:\program files\hasbro interactive\nascar heat' directory, even if this isn't the directory you chose during install. -- Slot www.slottweak.com Tweaks & Reviews "John Bradley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:MPG.1410f9e1976c79cf9896dc@news... > I have no complaints about the game itself. (Well, that's a lie, but no > complaints that I feel like going into at this moment.) > > The *installer*, on the other hand, p*sses me off. When it asks me where > I want the program installed, it should bloody well install the program > there, not just some parts of it! > > I could go on and on about why this is undesirable behavior, but what's > the point - it should be obvious to any right-thinking individual. > > (And no, I'm *not* going to return the game or anything like that. It's > a small annoyance, not a fatal flaw - which is all the more reason to > complain about it. There's no reason for minor stuff like this to be > *wrong*!) > > That said, is there a command-line argument or similar hack to skip the > opening video? Yes, of course I can press a key to skip it, but again, > this is a minor annoyance that I'd prefer to kill permanently, if > possible... > > --John Bradley

Now that just plain bites. I would sure be curious as to whether this was intentional on Hasbro's part, and if so what the reasoning was. -- Don Burnette Dburn in N3 and Legends ICQ# 74084566 "GTX_SlotCar" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:fyGp5.6640$[email hidden]... > In the options.cfg file under [global] make sure the no_video line reads > yes: > no_video yes > For those who haven't figured it out yet, most of your files are in the > 'c:\program files\hasbro interactive\nascar heat' directory, even if this > isn't the directory you chose during install. > > > -- > Slot > > www.slottweak.com > Tweaks & Reviews > > > > "John Bradley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:MPG.1410f9e1976c79cf9896dc@news... > > I have no complaints about the game itself. (Well, that's a lie, but no > > complaints that I feel like going into at this moment.) > > > > The *installer*, on the other hand, p*sses me off. When it asks me where > > I want the program installed, it should bloody well install the program > > there, not just some parts of it! > > > > I could go on and on about why this is undesirable behavior, but what's > > the point - it should be obvious to any right-thinking individual. > > > > (And no, I'm *not* going to return the game or anything like that. It's > > a small annoyance, not a fatal flaw - which is all the more reason to > > complain about it. There's no reason for minor stuff like this to be > > *wrong*!) > > > > That said, is there a command-line argument or similar hack to skip the > > opening video? Yes, of course I can press a key to skip it, but again, > > this is a minor annoyance that I'd prefer to kill permanently, if > > possible... > > > > --John Bradley > >

Actually while there are some restrictions in the Sierra installer template (i.e. not allowing an install to the system root or Windows directories), the leading Sierra directory in the path is no longer among them. Nascar3 and Nascar Legends suggested a Papyrus directory in the default path, and the user was free to change this if they so desired. Additionally the Sierra Utilities program is no longer included, though the common electronic registration and auto-update programs (~1MB) are installed in "c:\program files\sierra on-line". -- Eric "rrevved" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Sounds as if Hasbro is trying to mimic Sierra, who forces a folder > name of SIERRA\GPL etc. and slams their utilities on your > hard drive whether you want them or not.

Not quite. I can install my Sierra games wherever I desire, unlike Heat. "rrevved" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Sat, 26 Aug 2000 03:53:00 GMT, "Don Burnette" <[email hidden]>wrote:

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> > >Now that just plain bites. I would sure be curious as to whether this was > >intentional on Hasbro's part, and if so what the reasoning was. > > > > Sounds as if Hasbro is trying to mimic Sierra, who forces a folder > name of SIERRA\GPL etc. and slams their utilities on your > hard drive whether you want them or not. > > ;) > > > > >"GTX_SlotCar" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:fyGp5.6640$[email hidden]... > >> In the options.cfg file under [global] make sure the no_video line

reads > >> yes: > >> no_video yes > >> For those who haven't figured it out yet, most of your files are in the > >> 'c:\program files\hasbro interactive\nascar heat' directory, even ifthis

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> >> isn't the directory you chose during install. > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Slot > >> > >> www.slottweak.com > >> Tweaks & Reviews > >> > >> > >> > >> "John Bradley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >> news:MPG.1410f9e1976c79cf9896dc@news... > >> > I have no complaints about the game itself. (Well, that's a lie, but

no > >> > complaints that I feel like going into at this moment.) > >> > > >> > The *installer*, on the other hand, p*sses me off. When it asks me > >where > >> > I want the program installed, it should bloody well install theprogram > >> > there, not just some parts of it! > >> > > >> > I could go on and on about why this is undesirable behavior, butwhat's > >> > the point - it should be obvious to any right-thinking individual. > >> > > >> > (And no, I'm *not* going to return the game or anything like that.It's > >> > a small annoyance, not a fatal flaw - which is all the more reason to > >> > complain about it. There's no reason for minor stuff like this to be > >> > *wrong*!) > >> > > >> > That said, is there a command-line argument or similar hack to skipthe > >> > opening video? Yes, of course I can press a key to skip it, butagain,

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> >> > this is a minor annoyance that I'd prefer to kill permanently, if > >> > possible... > >> > > >> > --John Bradley > >> > >> > > >

On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 23:19:44 -0500, rrevved <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >Sounds as if Hasbro is trying to mimic Sierra, who forces a folder >name of SIERRA\GPL etc. and slams their utilities on your >hard drive whether you want them or not. > >;) I hate that too. But, at least Sierra puts everyting on the drive you choose. I never put games on C: drive and have deliberately limited the space on C: to 2gb. -- Nos

On Sat, 26 Aug 2000 01:51:18 -0500, rrevved <[email hidden]> thus spoke:

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>Nope. > >Sierra places the Sierra utilities where it wants to. > >ie: 'c:\program files\sierra on-line' even when your gpl folder >is at 'e:\sierra\gpl' . >

OK, true. But that's not the actuall game. If I install NH to D: then my understanding is that half the game is going to be on D: and the rest will be on C: Right? -- Nos

Good news , Eric. The forced SU install was irritating indeed as was the neccessity of the leadoff Sierra directory. I appreciate that the powers-that-be at Sierra took the right step (which must have been hard ,given the prevailing marketeering ethos of plastering your name all over the place) David "Eric Busch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8o7h8s$b4p$[email hidden]... > Actually while there are some restrictions in the Sierra installertemplate > (i.e. not allowing an install to the system root or Windows directories), > the leading Sierra directory in the path is no longer among them. Nascar3 > and Nascar Legends suggested a Papyrus directory in the default path, and > the user was free to change this if they so desired. Additionally the > Sierra Utilities program is no longer included, though the commonelectronic

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> registration and auto-update programs (~1MB) are installed in "c:\program > files\sierra on-line". > > -- > Eric > > "rrevved" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Sounds as if Hasbro is trying to mimic Sierra, who forces a folder > > name of SIERRA\GPL etc. and slams their utilities on your > > hard drive whether you want them or not. > >

On Sat, 26 Aug 2000 10:47:15 +0200, Jan Loebzien <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >Hehe, my C: is only 256 MB, now *that* keeps the OS lean and clean. :) >If only there weren't such stupid install programs like this one. :-( That's the total space you have or what's left? I assume you don't put the swap file on C:. -- Nos

On Sat, 26 Aug 2000 19:21:45 +0200, Jan Loebzien <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >There are about 30MB free (Win98FE), the fixed size swap file sits >indeed at the second HD. I see. I leave 2gb available on C: because I install all my real progs and system utilities there, but no games. And that's where my swap file is too. -- Nos

No not "half" 98% (all the big meaty files like the tracks) will be on the drive you choose. On Sat, 26 Aug 2000 08:07:20 GMT, [email hidden] wrote:

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>On Sat, 26 Aug 2000 01:51:18 -0500, rrevved ><[email hidden]> thus spoke: > > >>Nope. >> >>Sierra places the Sierra utilities where it wants to. >> >>ie: 'c:\program files\sierra on-line' even when your gpl folder >>is at 'e:\sierra\gpl' . >> > >OK, true. But that's not the actuall game. If I install NH to D: then >my understanding is that half the game is going to be on D: and the >rest will be on C: Right?

That is a deal killer for me....I have 3 hardrives and only two are dedicated to games....the other is for OS and Business apps...looks like I wont be getting HEAT after all. PAPA DOC

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>>;) > >I hate that too. But, at least Sierra puts everyting on the drive you >choose. I never put games on C: drive and have deliberately limited >the space on C: to 2gb. >-- >Nos

Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand Voodoo 5 vs Geforce 2 shootout... Flanker Target GPL Crash Dummy Video Card Wizard www.papadoc.net FALCON 4 Benchmarks Rants, Bullshit and Reviews

Thanks for the explanation Dave. -- Don Burnette Dburn in N3 and Legends ICQ# 74084566 "Dave P." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I'm glad to hear that Sierra finally dropped the "Sierra Utilities"--I had > to write the installer for Viper Racing, and it sure was a pain in the ass > having to start with this buggy, boroque Sierra Template and being forced to > shove Sierra Utilities all over the start menu... so kudos for that, > Sierra... > Now, I feel like I must address our own installer issues... I realize that > it's annoying for some of the files to be in a fixed position, but I'd > thought I'd at least give some explanation as to why this is the case. > > First of all, our big plan was to have the game "play directly off the CD", > so it would be an install-free process. We actually had planned to do this > with Viper, but because so many CD-ROMs of the era were so slow (e.g., > so-called 12X or 24X CDROMS that would actually have only 300-600 KB > transfer rates, etc) plus Sierra's requirements (primarily the former, so > don't blame Sierra). This is why we bundled all our stuff in to somewhat > few resource files, not because we have something against hackers! The main > cause of slow CD access is too many seeks, so we optimized for extended > single reads. > Anyway, because of this, we had to automatically choose a place to keep > configuration data--actually, in Microsoft's installation guidelines (which > they often ignore themselves) the correct place for this data is in Program > Files\Company Name\Product Name... they even tell you to create the Program > Files directory if none exists... > Now later on, we figured we had to have an option to "cache" the data on the > hard-drive, but because of the "install-free" process, this would typically > happen after the user has ran the program several times--perhaps we should > have, after they specified a new location, copied all of their configuration > data to somewhere else, but it gets tricky if they saved their own replays, > setups, etc... > So anywise, we figured that because a relatively small amount of data is > stored on the Program Files directory, that it wouldn't be too big of a > deal... > We were aiming for of a playstation-style experience--just pop in the CD and > go. I think that Microsoft has plans to give OS support for that style, > with a games manager, where I believe the user could globally choose where > games would put their stuff, plus have a way for games to "compact" > themselves after not being used in a while, etc... > > To sum up, I apologize for all who are annoyed by the behavior of the > installer, and I can't even foist any blame on Hasbro--all they required was > that "Hasbro Interactive" be in the default path, and of course the > electronic registration/eula stuff. However, since we only keep a few very > small datafiles there, I would say this is more of an "aesthetic" problem > than actually screwing over people with small C partitions. All I can hope > is that I never have to write another %^%$ installer again... > > et cetera, > Dave P. > MGI > > > David Erb wrote in message ... > >Good news , Eric. The forced SU install was irritating indeed as was the > >neccessity of the leadoff Sierra directory. I appreciate that the > >powers-that-be at Sierra took the right step (which must have been hard > >,given the prevailing marketeering ethos of plastering your name all over > >the place) > > > >David > > > >"Eric Busch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:8o7h8s$b4p$[email hidden]... > >> Actually while there are some restrictions in the Sierra installer > >template > >> (i.e. not allowing an install to the system root or Windows directories), > >> the leading Sierra directory in the path is no longer among them. > Nascar3 > >> and Nascar Legends suggested a Papyrus directory in the default path, and > >> the user was free to change this if they so desired. Additionally the > >> Sierra Utilities program is no longer included, though the common > >electronic > >> registration and auto-update programs (~1MB) are installed in "c:\program > >> files\sierra on-line". > >> > >> -- > >> Eric > >> > >> "rrevved" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >> news:[email hidden]... > >> > Sounds as if Hasbro is trying to mimic Sierra, who forces a folder > >> > name of SIERRA\GPL etc. and slams their utilities on your > >> > hard drive whether you want them or not. > >> > >> > > > > > >

On Sat, 26 Aug 2000 19:52:20 GMT, d0le <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >No not "half" > >98% (all the big meaty files like the tracks) will be on the drive you >choose. Yes, I see now. Not much at all. Don't see why any have to be there though. -- Nos

On Sat, 26 Aug 2000 21:52:08 GMT, [email hidden] (Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand) thus spoke: >That is a deal killer for me....I have 3 hardrives and only two are >dedicated to games....the other is for OS and Business apps...looks >like I wont be getting HEAT after all. > >PAPA DOC Nah, don't do that, it's not much over 5mb of data. I really don't think you want to miss out on this sim over a small issue like that. -- Nos

Yea once it became clear that it was only about 10% of the data I decided that it isnt that big a deal. Besides if I dont buy it then I wont have all that fun bitching about the no savegame "feature"...hehe. PAPA DOC > >Nah, don't do that, it's not much over 5mb of data. I really don't >think you want to miss out on this sim over a small issue like that. >-- >Nos Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand Voodoo 5 vs Geforce 2 shootout... Flanker Target GPL Crash Dummy Video Card Wizard www.papadoc.net FALCON 4 Benchmarks Rants, Bullshit and Reviews

"Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Yea once it became clear that it was only about 10% of the data I > decided that it isnt that big a deal. Besides if I dont buy it then I > wont have all that fun bitching about the no savegame > "feature"...hehe. Yeah, whose limp dick idea was that no savegame thing anyway :-) So what happened? Did someone email you and complain because you used the word "dick" after the word "limp"? -- [email hidden] > PAPA DOC > > > >Nah, don't do that, it's not much over 5mb of data. I really don't > >think you want to miss out on this sim over a small issue like that. > >-- > >Nos > > Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand > Voodoo 5 vs Geforce 2 shootout... > Flanker Target > GPL Crash Dummy > Video Card Wizard > www.papadoc.net > FALCON 4 Benchmarks > Rants, Bullshit and Reviews

On Sat, 26 Aug 2000 16:34:35 -0400, "Dave P." <[email hidden]> wrote: >We were aiming for of a playstation-style experience--just pop in the CD and >go. There you said the bad word! Playstation experience, that was my overall impression of the whole game too, with the exception of the car physics in the hidden hardcore mode. Must have been a pain when the suits came and said, "listen guys, people don't want simulations, they want games"... Luckily you managed to save some of of your true intentions in the options file, or did you? >However, since we only keep a few very >small datafiles there, I would say this is more of an "aesthetic" problem >than actually screwing over people with small C partitions. The problem is a) that the amount and size of the files there is likely to grow because you store the replays, records etc there. And b) since you keep writing to C:, you increase fragmentation on the OS partition, that's not just "aesthetic". >All I can hope is that I never have to write another %^%$ installer again... No offense, but I sure hope the same ... ;-) JanL

On Sat, 26 Aug 2000 21:29:00 -0500, "Greg Cisko" <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >Yeah, whose limp dick idea was that no savegame thing anyway :-) F12K doesn't have one either and it really pisses me off even more in that game. Just qualified first at Melbourne and on the first lap some dip shit rams me from behind and puts me out of the race. If it had a savegame I could at least restart with my no.1 qualifying position, but no I have to start all over again. -- Nos

Oh give me a break, and go whine somewhere else a few small files are going to hurt your little system, whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > That is a deal killer for me....I have 3 hardrives and only two are > dedicated to games....the other is for OS and Business apps...looks > like I wont be getting HEAT after all. > > PAPA DOC >

Fuck you very much Brucey... PAPA DOC >Oh give me a break, and go whine somewhere else a few small files are >going to hurt your little system, whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand Voodoo 5 vs Geforce 2 shootout... Flanker Target GPL Crash Dummy Video Card Wizard www.papadoc.net FALCON 4 Benchmarks Rants, Bullshit and Reviews

What about those of us who abhor swapping cds all the time? I have 60g of space. Thats what I liked about Viper and Falcon4, no cd needed! "Dave P." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I'm glad to hear that Sierra finally dropped the "Sierra Utilities"--I had > to write the installer for Viper Racing, and it sure was a pain in the ass > having to start with this buggy, boroque Sierra Template and being forcedto

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> shove Sierra Utilities all over the start menu... so kudos for that, > Sierra... > Now, I feel like I must address our own installer issues... I realize that > it's annoying for some of the files to be in a fixed position, but I'd > thought I'd at least give some explanation as to why this is the case. > > First of all, our big plan was to have the game "play directly off the

CD", > so it would be an install-free process. We actually had planned to dothis > with Viper, but because so many CD-ROMs of the era were so slow (e.g., > so-called 12X or 24X CDROMS that would actually have only 300-600 KB > transfer rates, etc) plus Sierra's requirements (primarily the former, so > don't blame Sierra). This is why we bundled all our stuff in to somewhat > few resource files, not because we have something against hackers! Themain > cause of slow CD access is too many seeks, so we optimized for extended > single reads. > Anyway, because of this, we had to automatically choose a place to keep > configuration data--actually, in Microsoft's installation guidelines(which > they often ignore themselves) the correct place for this data is inProgram > Files\Company Name\Product Name... they even tell you to create theProgram > Files directory if none exists... > Now later on, we figured we had to have an option to "cache" the data onthe > hard-drive, but because of the "install-free" process, this wouldtypically > happen after the user has ran the program several times--perhaps weshould > have, after they specified a new location, copied all of theirconfiguration > data to somewhere else, but it gets tricky if they saved their ownreplays, > setups, etc... > So anywise, we figured that because a relatively small amount of data is > stored on the Program Files directory, that it wouldn't be too big of a > deal... > We were aiming for of a playstation-style experience--just pop in the CDand

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> go. I think that Microsoft has plans to give OS support for that style, > with a games manager, where I believe the user could globally choose where > games would put their stuff, plus have a way for games to "compact" > themselves after not being used in a while, etc... > > To sum up, I apologize for all who are annoyed by the behavior of the > installer, and I can't even foist any blame on Hasbro--all they required

was > that "Hasbro Interactive" be in the default path, and of course the > electronic registration/eula stuff. However, since we only keep a fewvery > small datafiles there, I would say this is more of an "aesthetic" problem > than actually screwing over people with small C partitions. All I canhope

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> is that I never have to write another %^%$ installer again... > > et cetera, > Dave P. > MGI > > > David Erb wrote in message ... > >Good news , Eric. The forced SU install was irritating indeed as was the > >neccessity of the leadoff Sierra directory. I appreciate that the > >powers-that-be at Sierra took the right step (which must have been hard > >,given the prevailing marketeering ethos of plastering your name all over > >the place) > > > >David > > > >"Eric Busch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:8o7h8s$b4p$[email hidden]... > >> Actually while there are some restrictions in the Sierra installer > >template > >> (i.e. not allowing an install to the system root or Windows

directories), > >> the leading Sierra directory in the path is no longer among them. > Nascar3 > >> and Nascar Legends suggested a Papyrus directory in the default path,and > >> the user was free to change this if they so desired. Additionally the > >> Sierra Utilities program is no longer included, though the common > >electronic > >> registration and auto-update programs (~1MB) are installed in"c:\program

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> >> files\sierra on-line". > >> > >> -- > >> Eric > >> > >> "rrevved" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >> news:[email hidden]... > >> > Sounds as if Hasbro is trying to mimic Sierra, who forces a folder > >> > name of SIERRA\GPL etc. and slams their utilities on your > >> > hard drive whether you want them or not. > >> > >> > > > > > > >