Re: What I want in a sim...

weather is incredibly important in NASCAR racing. it's one of the main reasons why teams have to chase the setup throughout the race day. especially at places like Pocono, where turn 1 may be in the sun and have a hot, slick track surface and turn 3 in the shade and be cooler and grippier. i want to have to set up my car differently if the day is hot and sunny vs. overcast, and definately want my car's handling to change throughout the day. this is a large part of the strategy involved- do i make a long pit stop with many adjustmets (spring rubbers, etc.) to compensate for the weather, or try to keep track position? i like the idea that i could win a race based on my ability to adjust to changing track conditions (in both driving style and setup changes), as opposed to all-out speed. i won't even ask for the possibility of rain-shortened races where i hear from my spotter- "looks like it might rain in 20 minutes.... see if you can get to the front". maybe i'll try to stretch my gas or just change my tire-conserving line to a more aggressive one. ok, maybe i will ask :) having some realistic weather modelling would increase the amount of strategy involved in winning a race, and that can only be a good thing! (and, of course, they may yet one day use those grooved tires and windshield wipers at watkins glen!!) "rrevved" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 22:02:17 -0700, "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >N3: outdated physics. no immersion innovation, and the weather modelhasn't > >improved. > > Why 'weather' in a Nascar sim? They don't race in the rain. > Do you want a simulated 24 hours in the garage area waiting > for the storm to blow over, or... ? >

Kai Fuller wrote: > snip > > GP3: outdated physics, apparently weak damage modeling from what I've heard, > No multiplayer, not sure about immersion, but I have heard about the > pixilated hand. Also not sure about how good the flag work is. From what > I've heard the AI is pretty good. Semi-dynamic weather is a plus. can't hear > other cars Guess work at its best, LOL. The diff between GP2/3's physics is as big as between ICR2 and GPL. > > MGPRS2: Physics are OK and 3D, pretty good set of setup options. Damage If you like the physics of MGPR2, you'd love the physics of GP3. You would, if you had driven GP3 at all, that is. -- l8er ronny Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect. Reboot now? |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

What I want is for everything to be perfectly modeled, of course. But, failing that, what I want is pretty basic. 1. I want a believable, state of the art, physics model, that never makes me question whether it seems reasonable that a car would react like that in real life. 2. I want photorealistic eye candy that blows me away with scenery and animations and effects. 3. I want AI drivers that do both smart things and make unpredictable stupid mistakes from time to time.I want AI drivers to compete with each other as well as with me, and which are subject to the same physics model as I am. 4. I want realistic damage modeling, with cars flying into hundreds of pieces when you hit a wall at 200mph, or having appropriately scaled levels of damage for a given mishap. Beyond this, everything else is merely icing on the cake, and not a deal breaker. I am not too picky about sound, or pit crews, or weather, or most other stuff, as long as they get those 4 areas right, I will live with virtually any shortcomings in other areas, assuming the game is stable and does not crash.

Kai Fuller <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:GaIp5.292488$[email hidden]... > Ok I thought someone hasn't posted one of these in 3 days so... > > GP3: outdated physics, apparently weak damage modeling from what I'veheard, > No multiplayer, not sure about immersion, but I have heard about the > pixilated hand. Also not sure about how good the flag work is. From what > I've heard the AI is pretty good. Semi-dynamic weather is a plus. can'thear > other cars > GP3 does have multiplayer, but not over the internet. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.177 / Virus Database: 86 - Release Date: 00/08/07

Ok I thought someone hasn't posted one of these in 3 days so... 1.) 6DOF, realistic no compromises physics and car modeling, without the need of a download, secret codes or notepad. SCGT and NH have joined forces in the lest hide the sim from the public for whatever reason stance. Oh and garage setup should be as detailed as possible. 2.) Realistic damage. It hasn't gotten any better since ICR1. In fact if we keep going in the same direction (Viper to SCGT\NFS:PU to NH) we will have the same damage model as NFS 2... none. I'm not going to allow the "sim developers to get away with my buck and totally ignore a major part of auto racing. You just should be allowed to get away with what they do. I do think there needs to be an option to turn it off if you want to practice, and an arcade model as well if they don't want to scare people away. 3.) Robust multiplayer, even if it;s just 16, it should work at least as well as N3 on WON. SCGT was a huge disappointment because of this. 4.) More immersion, I want to always have control of my car if I want, an optional auto pilot is fine, but total control should be default and not hidden in a .cfg file. But at least it's an of[ption, unlike SCGT. I'd like to see someone really take the immersion factor further by being able to or having to drive behind the wall to fix major damage, or make setup tweaks during happy hour in "realistic race weekend" mode make my final adjustment over the evening, drive the car out to the pits, hear gentlemen start your engines (heck they did that in Bill Elliot's NASCAR challenge) I know many here will flame me for all of that, but I remember a time on r.a.s. when we still knew how to dream, and didn't settle for lack of innovation. I suppose those guys are all off racing GPL... (which I still plan to buy someday, when I get a credit card) 5.) The AI should be good and hopefully drive the real car model. 6.) They should also get the rules as correct as possible. 7.) Finally what's the hold up with some good dynamic weather. This would even have a big impact on NASCAR let along wet weather stuff. 8.) How about some good sound? 3D please, my speakers and soundcard cost me over 200 bucks. So... Proper physics, modeling, proper damage modeling, better immersion, multiplayer that works, no auto pilot, generally good flags and rules implementation, and ideally some basic dynamic weather. Is that asking too much? keep in mind the following is basically a summation of other opinions, not necessarily of my own. Post GPL\Viper games: N3: outdated physics. no immersion innovation, and the weather model hasn't improved. Still good multiplayer, although maybe not as good as TEN or Hawaii, from what I've heard. AI isn't that great, but serviceable. Good in the sound department. Sound was definitely improved with 3D and engine sounds from N2. NH: Pretty good physics (somewhere around GPL but has some flaws), but non-existent damage, poor flag work, negative in immersion, Not sure on the multiplayer or weather. Plus rated AI, except for caution bugs. (which game doesn't?) Weak sound. Very weak sound effects, and lack of Dsound3D GP3: outdated physics, apparently weak damage modeling from what I've heard, No multiplayer, not sure about immersion, but I have heard about the pixilated hand. Also not sure about how good the flag work is. From what I've heard the AI is pretty good. Semi-dynamic weather is a plus. can't hear other cars SCGT: actually a nice step for physics, if not totally accurate, one of the first 3D models. Damage is OK, multiplayer might as well not be there. auto pit hurts immersion. At least the AI drives the car model, one point for innovation, one off for the fact they don't drive it all that well. No Flags what so ever. At least they have weather of some sort. (also no headlights at night) Sound was great after add-ons, including the fact that you can't hear your own engine at the start. MGPRS2: Physics are OK and 3D, pretty good set of setup options. Damage seems reasonably unforgiving like a F1 should be. Multiplayer is actually pretty good on a dial up, no collisions option is a nice thought. You do actually drive out of your garage during practice, and you get a full race weekend with all the time limits, no parade lap though. The AI seems good to me. really good flag work and rules, lots of DQ's and such. The weather also seems dynamic to me. Sound isn't all that great. So actually if MGPRS2 would have had a decent physics model, I think it's the best thing since GPL... Since it doesn't... there really hasn't been much. I own SCGT and MGPRS2 (got it for free in a contest, and don't really like it, and was surprised to see it do so well on my list.) I didn't know enough about F12k, RC2k or Porsche2k ( :) ) to talk about those Pre GPL\Viper games when they were new. N2: Improved physics from N1 that were still pretty good back then. Same with the damage at least no steps backward, multiplayer made a big big move with TEN. There wasn't anything that took away from immersion. The Ai was pretty good for then, but didn't drive the model at all. Yellows were done right. dynamic weather would have been a processor strain back then, and wasn't necessary. Sound was pretty good. ICR2: Best implementation of old world physics. Multiplayer was getting better, too bad they didn't update it for a TEN version. Damage model was status qou open wheel papy. same immersion as N2, no drawbacks. Ai was good for the time. I don't remember the flags all that well. No weather was a huge drawback from ICR1. Sound was pretty good NFS1: Pretty good physics for the time. NO DAMAGE. Not much multiplayer that I remember. Great open road stage based feel. The AI was pretty good, and actually appeared to five the model, though I doubt it. I don't think there is rules in renegade style racing, although police presence wasn't of NFS3. No weather stuff. Sound was pretty good. So have we stagnated since GPL? NH does seem pretty good, with it flaws, and N4 and WSC's look promising. Lets just say it';s been a weak 2 years for sim racing. Let me say before I forget that I haven't forgotten: ratbag, SODA, F12K, RC2000, N1, ICR1, I500 the simulation, GP2, GP1, other crammond stuff, earlier rally games, all the arcade stuff (which have seemingly fallen off the face of the earth,, since NFS arcade style's demise, I think what everyone wants is a good simulation, if it's done right, it won't be hard to pick up, but will have long lasting value. I have forgotten other games, but didn't want to talk about all of them.

No I mean, temperature changed that effect setups in a long race. also would effect oil temps if it got real hot. Also differing weather would effect qualifying, especially if you ended up having to try an qualify on day 2. But what I meant by it hasn't been improved, is it's still rather unrealistic from N2, doesn't the wind only effect your car and not the AI in N2? I remember Tim Wortman talking about that. It wasn't a big minus, but I still wanted to mention it. It definitely plays a role in real NASCAR however, ands should eventually be implemented by someone. also if you were waiting for the storm to blow over, hopefully there would be a speed up time until storm subsides function. Oh and thanks for clipping the message down. :) rrevved <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 22:02:17 -0700, "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >N3: outdated physics. no immersion innovation, and the weather modelhasn't > >improved. > > Why 'weather' in a Nascar sim? They don't race in the rain. > Do you want a simulated 24 hours in the garage area waiting > for the storm to blow over, or... ? >

On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 22:02:17 -0700, "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>4.) More immersion, I want to always have control of my car if I want, an >optional auto pilot is fine, but total control should be default and not >hidden in a .cfg file. But at least it's an of[ption, unlike SCGT. I'd like >to see someone really take the immersion factor further by being able to or >having to drive behind the wall to fix major damage, or make setup tweaks >during happy hour in "realistic race weekend" mode make my final adjustment >over the evening, drive the car out to the pits, hear gentlemen start your >engines (heck they did that in Bill Elliot's NASCAR challenge) I know many >here will flame me for all of that, but I remember a time on r.a.s. when we >still knew how to dream, and didn't settle for lack of innovation. I suppose >those guys are all off racing GPL... (which I still plan to buy someday, >when I get a credit card)

It's the auto pilots in racing simulators which have often caused problems for me. Remember F1RS and MGPRS2, when you broke the rules, such as by driving backwards, or hitting another car on purpose and were black flagged, you'd lose control of your car. Also, if your car was badly damaged, but still driveable, you'd lose control and be forced to leave the race. It sucked big time! GPL didn't do this, and all the better for it. Why wait for a credit card to buy GPL? >So... Proper physics, modeling, proper damage modeling, better immersion, >multiplayer that works, no auto pilot, generally good flags and rules >implementation, and ideally some basic dynamic weather. So you're looking for evolutionary changes, not revolutionary. That means that they're getting there, if not slowly. >GP3: outdated physics, apparently weak damage modeling from what I've heard, >No multiplayer, not sure about immersion, but I have heard about the >pixilated hand. Also not sure about how good the flag work is. From what >I've heard the AI is pretty good. Semi-dynamic weather is a plus. can't hear >other cars GP3 does have a multiplayer function. Just not internet support. >NFS1: Pretty good physics for the time. NO DAMAGE. Not much multiplayer that >I remember. Great open road stage based feel. The AI was pretty good, and >actually appeared to five the model, though I doubt it. I don't think there >is rules in renegade style racing, although police presence wasn't of NFS3. >No weather stuff. Sound was pretty good. The NFS1 physics are fantastic for its time. To this day I've yet to see a sim simulate wheel spin as well as the corvette, doge and ferrari in that game. Donuts ruled the day! It's a shame that all the NFS titles since have become (ugh!) arcade racers. -- Thief In The Night

"rrevved" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 22:02:17 -0700, "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >N3: outdated physics. no immersion innovation, and the weather modelhasn't > >improved. > > Why 'weather' in a Nascar sim? They don't race in the rain. > Do you want a simulated 24 hours in the garage area waiting > for the storm to blow over, or... ? > By weather model, I assume he's talking about how the air temperature and humidity effect the car's setup and handling.

On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 22:02:17 -0700, "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Ok I thought someone hasn't posted one of these in 3 days so... <Snip> Sounds like GPL was made for you :) Andre

I would think a dynamic weather model, while cool, would be an incredible strain on resources that could be used for many other things. -- Don Burnette Dburn in N3 and Legends ICQ# 74084566 "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:07Jp5.522087$[email hidden]... > No I mean, temperature changed that effect setups in a long race. also would > effect oil temps if it got real hot. Also differing weather would effect > qualifying, especially if you ended up having to try an qualify on day 2. > > But what I meant by it hasn't been improved, is it's still rather > unrealistic from N2, doesn't the wind only effect your car and not the AI in > N2? I remember Tim Wortman talking about that. It wasn't a big minus, but I > still wanted to mention it. It definitely plays a role in real NASCAR > however, ands should eventually be implemented by someone. > > also if you were waiting for the storm to blow over, hopefully there would > be a speed up time until storm subsides function. > > Oh and thanks for clipping the message down. :) > > > rrevved <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 22:02:17 -0700, "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >N3: outdated physics. no immersion innovation, and the weather model > hasn't > > >improved. > > > > Why 'weather' in a Nascar sim? They don't race in the rain. > > Do you want a simulated 24 hours in the garage area waiting > > for the storm to blow over, or... ? > > > >

YES!!!! If I am going to simulate a NASCAR season... that's EXACTLY what can happen, and it does happen about once every season at least. I want to practice, qualify, and then get a red flag due to weather. I want to know what it's like to race 180 laps, only to have to pull to a stop and wait. I want to simulate a major accident, where everyone has to stop as they pull the ambulance out on the track. Its a simulation, that's what I want. i want to simulate NASCAR!!! NOT Bobby Labonte's pontiac!!!!!!!!! "rrevved" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 22:02:17 -0700, "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >N3: outdated physics. no immersion innovation, and the weather modelhasn't > >improved. > > Why 'weather' in a Nascar sim? They don't race in the rain. > Do you want a simulated 24 hours in the garage area waiting > for the storm to blow over, or... ? >

Your list looks good, except I'd add ForceFeedback to at least GPL standards, and -sound-...for me, that's a huge part of the immersion factor. The stepped engine sounds in F12000 and MGPRS2 were annoying enough to keep me from playing them regularly (on top of the -massive- system requirements of F12000). Weather (in F1 sims, not NASCAR) and realistic pit stops would be a selling point, but not essential....and I mean weather in the sense of rain...temprature modeling for track, tires and engine behavior would be up there on my list. J. P. Hovercraft Loosay2 wrote:

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> What I want is for everything to be perfectly modeled, of course. > But, failing that, what I want is pretty basic. > 1. I want a believable, state of the art, physics model, that never makes me > question whether it seems reasonable that a car would react like that in real > life. > 2. I want photorealistic eye candy that blows me away with scenery and > animations and effects. > 3. I want AI drivers that do both smart things and make unpredictable stupid > mistakes from time to time.I want AI drivers to compete with each other as well > as with me, and which are subject to the same physics model as I am. > 4. I want realistic damage modeling, with cars flying into hundreds of pieces > when you hit a wall at 200mph, or having appropriately scaled levels of damage > for a given mishap. > > Beyond this, everything else is merely icing on the cake, and not a deal > breaker. I am not too picky about sound, or pit crews, or weather, or most > other stuff, as long as they get those 4 areas right, I will live with > virtually any shortcomings in other areas, assuming the game is stable and does > not crash.

I'm going to creat my own publishing company that specializes specifically in hardcore sims, like GPL, but even better, and much more open to users (ala Half-Life and such). NASCAR, F1, CART, touring cars, sport bikes, etc.. The start of a new era for sim racers! ...err, can someone lend me a couple million to get started and a crew of good programmers? ;) -- ----------------------------------- Morgan Vincent Wooten GPLRank: +15.49 mailto:[email hidden] http://members.tripod.com/~morganv/ ----------------------------------- Kai Fuller <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:GaIp5.292488$[email hidden]... > Ok I thought someone hasn't posted one of these in 3 days so... > [] hard to pick up, but will have long lasting value. I have forgotten other > games, but didn't want to talk about all of them. > > >

sound like you're waiting for WSC if it turns out to be everything that I hope it will be. Man, if the West brothers can even half of what they say they will into the game it should be on my hard drive for at least a few years. -- the friendly pysco I know it's spelled wrong but, I'm not a psycho ; )

"Braveheart" <[email hidden]> wrote > I want to practice, qualify, and then get a red flag due to weather. Iwant > to know what it's like to race 180 laps, only to have to pull to a stopand > wait. Teehee I can see this in Nascar Racing 8 <spotter> "Well the rain is falling down, so come back to your PC in 6hours. N8 won't load until. Too bad, you wanted realism!" Virtual reality racing is about recreating real-life situations but also taking advantages of virtual reality itself. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

yeah, it would have to be down the road. I'm not saying what needs to be in a sim, but, what I'd want in eventuality. Don Burnette <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:u4Rp5.5791$[email hidden]...

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> I would think a dynamic weather model, while cool, would be an incredible > strain on resources that could be used for many other things. > > -- > Don Burnette > Dburn in N3 and Legends > ICQ# 74084566 > > "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:07Jp5.522087$[email hidden]... > > No I mean, temperature changed that effect setups in a long race. also > would > > effect oil temps if it got real hot. Also differing weather would effect > > qualifying, especially if you ended up having to try an qualify on day

2. > > > > But what I meant by it hasn't been improved, is it's still rather > > unrealistic from N2, doesn't the wind only effect your car and not theAI > in > > N2? I remember Tim Wortman talking about that. It wasn't a big minus,but > I > > still wanted to mention it. It definitely plays a role in real NASCAR > > however, ands should eventually be implemented by someone. > > > > also if you were waiting for the storm to blow over, hopefully therewould

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> > be a speed up time until storm subsides function. > > > > Oh and thanks for clipping the message down. :) > > > > > > rrevved <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 22:02:17 -0700, "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > > > > > >N3: outdated physics. no immersion innovation, and the weather model > > hasn't > > > >improved. > > > > > > Why 'weather' in a Nascar sim? They don't race in the rain. > > > Do you want a simulated 24 hours in the garage area waiting > > > for the storm to blow over, or... ? > > > > > > > > >

that's what I was talking about, sorry for my lack of clarity. Chris Bloom <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > Kai Fuller <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:GaIp5.292488$[email hidden]... > > Ok I thought someone hasn't posted one of these in 3 days so... > > > > > GP3: outdated physics, apparently weak damage modeling from what I've > heard, > > No multiplayer, not sure about immersion, but I have heard about the > > pixilated hand. Also not sure about how good the flag work is. From what > > I've heard the AI is pretty good. Semi-dynamic weather is a plus. can't > hear > > other cars > > > > GP3 does have multiplayer, but not over the internet. > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.177 / Virus Database: 86 - Release Date: 00/08/07 > >

relies below... > It's the auto pilots in racing simulators which have often caused problemsfor me. Remember F1RS and MGPRS2, when you broke the rules, such as by > driving backwards, or hitting another car on purpose and were blackflagged, you'd lose control of your car. Also, if your car was badly damaged, but > still driveable, you'd lose control and be forced to leave the race. Itsucked big time! GPL didn't do this, and all the better for it. > > Why wait for a credit card to buy GPL? I agree with the no-auto pilot deal, I just don't get it why sim developers do this. Not to cut corners, but they actually program it into the game as a feature or seomthing. It'd be nice for newbies to have the option, but come on. GPL is not available in my area. > So you're looking for evolutionary changes, not revolutionary. That meansthat they're getting there, if not slowly. I'm not so sure about that, there just seems to b more and more out there that make comprimmises. because it's not instamtly accessable by everyone. GPL's initial difficulty may be a bit high for people who know how to drive because of video and FF limitations, but omce you mentally compensate, it's just like a real car, these comprimises just become bad car modelling after a few weeks of practice... (oh my god practice in a video game???) I think there is a place for both, and hope revelurtionary games like GPL come out every once in awhile. The rest of the sims have been simmish for the most part, and generally non-innovative in car modeling or other areas. I don't think NH is too easy to drive, buit too easy to drive fast. If Ed Bain can beat record times at Tally, why isn't he in NASCAR?

That's what papy is supposedly. They just haven't put anything out since GPL. Morgan V. Wooten� <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:QITp5.2368$[email hidden]... > I'm going to creat my own publishing company that specializes specificallyin > hardcore sims, like GPL, but even better, and much more open to users (ala > Half-Life and such). NASCAR, F1, CART, touring cars, sport bikes, etc..The > start of a new era for sim racers! > > ...err, can someone lend me a couple million to get started and a crew ofgood

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> programmers? ;) > > -- > ----------------------------------- > Morgan Vincent Wooten > GPLRank: +15.49 > mailto:[email hidden] > http://members.tripod.com/~morganv/ > ----------------------------------- > > Kai Fuller <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:GaIp5.292488$[email hidden]... > > Ok I thought someone hasn't posted one of these in 3 days so... > > > [] > hard to pick up, but will have long lasting value. I have forgotten other > > games, but didn't want to talk about all of them. > > > > > > > >