extremely confused

I posted this yesterday and not one person replied Does this mean that noone in this ng has ever driven a stockcar or raced for real I find this surprising, Figured there would be at least a few If there are any folks in this ng who have actually drivin and raced Nascar,Cascar,superstock or even streetstock please reply to this and give me your opinion on the driving physics of NH I for one feel it is the best yet, not perfect, but the best so far. Although I am heavy into kart racing now i did test drive a Cascar quite often up here in Canada and when I first tried the Demo I was amazed. It touched my senses, I swore i could smell the speedway. Very interested in some opinions of other drivers.

No. "bengal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I posted this yesterday and not one person replied > Does this mean that noone in this ng has ever driven a stockcar or > raced for real > I find this surprising, Figured there would be at least a few > > > > > > If there are any folks in this ng who have actually drivin and raced > Nascar,Cascar,superstock or even streetstock please reply to this and > give me your opinion on the driving physics of NH > I for one feel it is the best yet, not perfect, but the best so far. > Although I am heavy into kart racing now i did test drive a Cascar quite > often up here in Canada and when I first tried the Demo I was amazed. > It touched my senses, I swore i could smell the speedway. > Very interested in some opinions of other drivers.

Well I must say I am really confused now I have been following this ng quite close ever since F1 2000 was released and have seen incredibly detailed criticism of the handling physics of cars in F1 2000, GP3, and now NH. They are very well written and sound very intillectual. I can understand concerns regarding actual gameplay issues but how can one bash the subtle effects that all these sims do a great job of imitating, on a screen no doubt, when they have nothing to compare it too. Could someone please help me see the light Shane Lowry wrote:

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> > theres a thread further down, where Doug Arnao, puts his thoughts down. He > is a racer and instructor (i believe) and thinks Heat is pretty darn close > ... so do i for that matter. Look for GPL beta test in the header > > shane > > bengal <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I posted this yesterday and not one person replied > > Does this mean that noone in this ng has ever driven a stockcar or > > raced for real > > I find this surprising, Figured there would be at least a few > > > > > > > > > > > > If there are any folks in this ng who have actually drivin and raced > > Nascar,Cascar,superstock or even streetstock please reply to this and > > give me your opinion on the driving physics of NH > > I for one feel it is the best yet, not perfect, but the best so far. > > Although I am heavy into kart racing now i did test drive a Cascar quite > > often up here in Canada and when I first tried the Demo I was amazed. > > It touched my senses, I swore i could smell the speedway. > > Very interested in some opinions of other drivers.

Thankyou for taking the time with your post much appreciated Bengal http://members.home.net/bengal2/karttec.html Ed Bain wrote:

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> > On Tue, 29 Aug 2000 15:15:28 +1000, "Shane Lowry" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >theres a thread further down, where Doug Arnao, puts his thoughts down. He > >is a racer and instructor (i believe) and thinks Heat is pretty darn close > >... so do i for that matter. Look for GPL beta test in the header > > > >shane > > > > Here it is again.. > > http://www.delphi.com/nascarheat/messages/?msg=597.2 > > From: DOUG914 10:06 am > To: CHRISTSR unread (2 of 3) > 611.2 in reply to 611.1 prev next > > I've been driving at the Glen for over 20 years. The first time I > ever drove there, they had a chicane in the esses!........showing my > age I guess<g>. Actually I was there just last weekend for 3-days > where I instructed for a local club........did about 3 hours track > time , so the track is very fresh in my mind. MGI's track is missing > some things, but the over all layout is dead on. There is the big wide > curbing exiting turns 1, the fast left, and the last turn onto the > front straight that's missing. Also there's the brake markers going > into turn 1 thats not there (300,200,100). Only other nitpick is the > drive down hill out of turn 1 is not steep enough or ends to soon. The > real track bottoms out just as you turn back right, to go up the > esses. Bus stop chicane is perfect. > > Driving model: I think this shows how convincing a driving experience > can be inside a computer. Don't know what compromises the MGI guys > have done to make it so, but it's something Papy could stand to take > notice of. After working on the GPL beta team, and "discussing" at > length the unnecessary difficulty of driving GPL with Keammer and > Sentell, I thought no other company could ever truly deliver. I was > wrong. I loved GPL, it was revolutionary, it was incredibly accurate - > by the numbers, it was a labor of love for Keammer and the team, it > was a too difficult because the team wouldn't compromise. When you > mastered it, you felt you really had acomplished > something......problem was if you walked away from it for any length > of time, you had to put, IMHO, too much work to return to that form. > This eventually kept me from returning to it. Maybe I'm just getting > too old? <g> > > You see, never in twenty years of driving race cars, and all different > types, have I ever found one "difficult" to drive (unless there's a > real problem). Any resonably well setup car can be driven to 85-90% of > its capability within a few sessions. This has always been an > underlying, nagging problem for me with sims - you need to switch mind > set to drive the computer with a car inside....... With HEAT, I can > pull out on the track cold, and forget about adapting my thoughts for > driving inside a computer - or "playing" the game - and just > drive_the_car............the first 85% or so no problem - the last ten > not so easy. > > AI is very good , right up there with GPL - a little too much brakes > at the Glen - But still good > > While I care very little about the yellow/damage/save game issue's, I > agree it would be nice to have them working. > > Sorry for rambling, but after being totally bored with racing sims for > over a year, this one took me by surprise :) > > It has a great foundation - well done guys :) > > --Doug Arnao > > >bengal <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > >> I posted this yesterday and not one person replied > >> Does this mean that noone in this ng has ever driven a stockcar or > >> raced for real > >> I find this surprising, Figured there would be at least a few > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> If there are any folks in this ng who have actually drivin and raced > >> Nascar,Cascar,superstock or even streetstock please reply to this and > >> give me your opinion on the driving physics of NH > >> I for one feel it is the best yet, not perfect, but the best so far. > >> Although I am heavy into kart racing now i did test drive a Cascar quite > >> often up here in Canada and when I first tried the Demo I was amazed. > >> It touched my senses, I swore i could smell the speedway. > >> Very interested in some opinions of other drivers. > >

theres a thread further down, where Doug Arnao, puts his thoughts down. He is a racer and instructor (i believe) and thinks Heat is pretty darn close ... so do i for that matter. Look for GPL beta test in the header shane bengal <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I posted this yesterday and not one person replied > Does this mean that noone in this ng has ever driven a stockcar or > raced for real > I find this surprising, Figured there would be at least a few > > > > > > If there are any folks in this ng who have actually drivin and raced > Nascar,Cascar,superstock or even streetstock please reply to this and > give me your opinion on the driving physics of NH > I for one feel it is the best yet, not perfect, but the best so far. > Although I am heavy into kart racing now i did test drive a Cascar quite > often up here in Canada and when I first tried the Demo I was amazed. > It touched my senses, I swore i could smell the speedway. > Very interested in some opinions of other drivers.

There is more to it than that, namely engineering and physics knowledge, and perhaps even more importanly, intuition. One does not need to have done something in person in order to estimate how a relatively simple mechanical system will behave under some given conditions (although it may be hard, and in certain cases even impossible, but not in the applications we are discussing here). That's why, for example, the moon landing was successful on the first try. Noone did it before, but it went as planned. And why do you say burnouts are impossible in GP3? -Gregor Simon Brown wrote:

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> > You don't think it's possible to get a fairly good impression of how a > Nascar or F1 car should handle through watching the sport on tv for a > prolonged period? > > Just on GP3, real F1 drivers can do things in F1 which are impossible in > GP3, like burnouts. You don't have to have driven an F1 car to notice that. > > "bengal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Well I must say I am really confused now > > I have been following this ng quite close ever since F1 2000 was > > released and have seen incredibly detailed criticism of the handling > > physics of cars in F1 2000, GP3, and now NH. > > They are very well written and sound very intillectual. > > I can understand concerns regarding actual gameplay issues but how can > > one bash the subtle effects that all these sims do a great job of > > imitating, on a screen no doubt, when they have nothing to compare it > > too. > > Could someone please help me see the light

You don't think it's possible to get a fairly good impression of how a Nascar or F1 car should handle through watching the sport on tv for a prolonged period? Just on GP3, real F1 drivers can do things in F1 which are impossible in GP3, like burnouts. You don't have to have driven an F1 car to notice that. "bengal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Well I must say I am really confused now > I have been following this ng quite close ever since F1 2000 was > released and have seen incredibly detailed criticism of the handling > physics of cars in F1 2000, GP3, and now NH. > They are very well written and sound very intillectual. > I can understand concerns regarding actual gameplay issues but how can > one bash the subtle effects that all these sims do a great job of > imitating, on a screen no doubt, when they have nothing to compare it > too. > Could someone please help me see the light > > Shane Lowry wrote:

I play with no driving aids on a steering wheel. Maybe the thing I'm thinking of isn't called a burnout. What I mean is that if you sit still on the track and then floor the throttle in first gear, you can't stop the car from spinning just by correcting the cars rotation with the steering. You can only prevent a spin by lifting off the gas a little. I suppose the correct name for that would be a wheelspin start. "Ed Bain" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Tue, 29 Aug 2000 11:29:48 GMT, "Simon Brown"<[email hidden]> wrote:

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> > >real F1 drivers can do things in F1 which are impossible in > >GP3, like burnouts. > > Uhh.. burnouts are VERY easy to do in GP3. > Turn off your driving aids. >

What I mean (which probably isn't called a burnout) is that if you are stationary on the track in first gear and you floor the throttle, the car always spins, it's impossible to just correct with the steering, you have to lift off the throttle. > And why do you say burnouts are impossible in GP3? > > -Gregor >

Simon Brown wrote: > > What I mean (which probably isn't called a burnout) is that if you are > stationary on the track in first gear and you floor the throttle, the car > always spins, it's impossible to just correct with the steering, you have to > lift off the throttle. > The burnouts are possible, just quite difficult. First of all, the steering lock should not be set too high, as this looses the delicacy needed to control the car (and speed sensitivty set to 0, which is not really important here, but I can use every opportunity to reccomend it ;) ). Second, it's also a difficult thing in real life, especially if you really put the throttle all the way down. If the rear tires are spinning really fast, then they are unable to produce any lateral force while the fronts can, and this makes a high grip car like the one on GP3 unstable. A real driver can sense the onset of a spin much faster than a sim racer (seat of the pants feel), so he or she is able to correct it more easily. That said, controlled burnouts are possible in GP3 and I've done plenty of them, though not always succeeding, but lack of feedback makes them, like many other aspects of simming, unnecessarily hard. Try using less than full throttle, only enough to produce smoke, this will retain a tiny bit of the lateral capabilities of the rear tires making the car slightly less unstable. -Gregor

Simon Brown wrote: > > You don't think it's possible to get a fairly good impression of how a > Nascar or F1 car should handle through watching the sport on tv for a > prolonged period? Kinda like getting a fairly good impression of what sex feels like after watching porno flicks for a prolonged period, IMHO -- the concept is pretty clear, but the sensation is entirely missing. I think that unless one has gotten comfortable with a high-grip car on the edge of adhesion, has darted in and out of very close traffic, and gotten loose at both ends of the car enough times to be able to feel it happening before it's irretrievably lost, then one has no credible experience with which to judge how well -- or not -- a particular sim conforms to "real-world" physics. As someone else pointed out here, there are many people who are VERY good at GPL, because they've learned the optimum techniques for exploiting the idiosyncracies of the SIM, and not because they are necessarily latent Schumachers or Clarks. There are certainly some things that can be learned from a sim that apply to real-world racing: corner entry and exit speed strategies (in a very broad-brush sense) for example, or outbraking, or learning the correct line ... but the "real-world veracity" of all these things depends upon how close the physics model of the sim corresponds to the Newtonian physics that rule us here on Earth. It will be MOST interesting, I think, when Skip Barber's School/Racing Sim is released. As I have opined before, if *anybody* knows this stuff in an empirical and transmittable way (rather than simply intuitively and inarticulately), it's Skip Barber. But even if the physics model can be made spot on, unless someone is willing to invest in a 6-axis "shake and bake" sim capsule that can accurately replicate all the various force vectors acting on car and driver, it's still a looooong way from a real world experience. And it's not just a matter of "willing suspension of disbelief" or psychological immersion; the proof of the pudding would be if you could step out of such a simulator , step into a real Barber Dodge, and drive it considerably quicker than someone just sitting through the chalkboard friction-circle classes at the Barber School and then getting into the car for a go... a scenario (minus the "shake and bake" capsule) I'm sure will be enacted at some point by the Barber School. Interesting times... BB

So am I right in thinking that you have managed a full throttle wheelspin start? How long roughly can you keep the throttle full down and keep the car moving straight forward for? I've tried extensively and can't get anywhere near one. The car always spins within a few seconds. You don't have opposite lock help on or something do you? Theres a few extra driving aids burried in the controller options. I have speed sensitive steering off and maximum steering lock on about 18, if I remember correctly. I can do fantastic wheelspin starts in GPL btw, although the dynamics of the cars are of course, quite different.

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> The burnouts are possible, just quite difficult. First of all, the > steering lock should not be set too high, as this looses the delicacy > needed to control the car (and speed sensitivty set to 0, which is not > really important here, but I can use every opportunity to reccomend it > ;) ). Second, it's also a difficult thing in real life, especially if > you really put the throttle all the way down. If the rear tires are > spinning really fast, then they are unable to produce any lateral force > while the fronts can, and this makes a high grip car like the one on GP3 > unstable. A real driver can sense the onset of a spin much faster than a > sim racer (seat of the pants feel), so he or she is able to correct it > more easily. > > That said, controlled burnouts are possible in GP3 and I've done plenty > of them, though not always succeeding, but lack of feedback makes them, > like many other aspects of simming, unnecessarily hard. Try using less > than full throttle, only enough to produce smoke, this will retain a > tiny bit of the lateral capabilities of the rear tires making the car > slightly less unstable. > > -Gregor

Well, I doubt there's much *evidence* that the best GPL players are actually bad at driving 1967 F1 cars. It's not a theory that will have been tested very often :) Also I remember a post here from someone who claimed playing GPL had helped him improve and win races in the real world, although only at amateur level of course. I get your point though. But for the sake of argument, ex-f1 driver Martin Brundle now works for ITV, a UK-based tv company, and they did a piece demonstrating different starting techniques. One of the starts Martin did (in a real f1 car) was a full-throttle wheelspin start and he kept the throttle full-down the whole time and didn't spin. If someone has a replay of themselves doing this in GP3 I'd love to see it (no steering aids on an anologue controller only), because I certainly can't manage it, and it's not through lack of trying. There's a clear example of where watching the real sport on TV shows up a failing in a game. "Barton Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Simon Brown wrote: > > > > You don't think it's possible to get a fairly good impression of how a > > Nascar or F1 car should handle through watching the sport on tv for a > > prolonged period? > > Kinda like getting a fairly good impression of what sex feels like after > watching porno flicks for a prolonged period, IMHO -- the concept is > pretty clear, but the sensation is entirely missing. I think that unless > one has gotten comfortable with a high-grip car on the edge of adhesion, > has darted in and out of very close traffic, and gotten loose at both > ends of the car enough times to be able to feel it happening before it's > irretrievably lost, then one has no credible experience with which to > judge how well -- or not -- a particular sim conforms to "real-world" > physics. As someone else pointed out here, there are many people who are > VERY good at GPL, because they've learned the optimum techniques for > exploiting the idiosyncracies of the SIM, and not because they are > necessarily latent Schumachers or Clarks. > > There are certainly some things that can be learned from a sim that > apply to real-world racing: corner entry and exit speed strategies (in a > very broad-brush sense) for example, or outbraking, or learning the > correct line ... but the "real-world veracity" of all these things > depends upon how close the physics model of the sim corresponds to the > Newtonian physics that rule us here on Earth. It will be MOST > interesting, I think, when Skip Barber's School/Racing Sim is released. > As I have opined before, if *anybody* knows this stuff in an empirical > and transmittable way (rather than simply intuitively and > inarticulately), it's Skip Barber. But even if the physics model can be > made spot on, unless someone is willing to invest in a 6-axis "shake > and bake" sim capsule that can accurately replicate all the various > force vectors acting on car and driver, it's still a looooong way from a > real world experience. And it's not just a matter of "willing suspension > of disbelief" or psychological immersion; the proof of the pudding would > be if you could step out of such a simulator , step into a real Barber > Dodge, and drive it considerably quicker than someone just sitting > through the chalkboard friction-circle classes at the Barber School and > then getting into the car for a go... a scenario (minus the "shake and > bake" capsule) I'm sure will be enacted at some point by the Barber

School. > > Interesting times... > > BB

"Simon Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote > So am I right in thinking that you have managed a full throttle wheelspin > start? How long roughly can you keep the throttle full down and keep the > car moving straight forward for? It's incredibly difficult, but possible. Actually, it would be realistic if GP3 was a "driving" simulation, where us mortals are slower than the real-life counterparts in average (like in GPL), but GP3 is a "racing" simulation by Geoff Crammond's words and is made so the mortals can run in the same competitive way as real-life F1 drivers. We are talking about full 100% throttle of course. Anybody who lifts even 3-4% isn't doing a full wheelspin. You can easily stay in a straight line doing that method. But your right, for me maybe 99% of the time I'll spin when doing that and my racing abilities are imho quite high compared to the average. > I can do fantastic wheelspin starts in GPL btw, although the dynamics ofthe > cars are of course, quite different. Irrelevant of the type of car your perfectly right. It feels real. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

-- Colin Harris Bomber Racing: Http://fullspeed.to/Bomber ICQ 25485061 ymenard <[email hidden]> wrote in message and my racing abilities are imho quite high compared to the > average. Don't think there's too much "h" in that "imho", Francois!!!!!! > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> >

ymenard wrote:

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> > We are talking about full 100% throttle of course. Anybody who lifts even > 3-4% isn't doing a full wheelspin. You can easily stay in a straight line > doing that method. But your right, for me maybe 99% of the time I'll spin > when doing that and my racing abilities are imho quite high compared to the > average. >

What is the definition of wheelspin? If you decrease the 1st gear, you in effect do the same as lifting off, but you can keep 100% throttle anyway. The usual definition of wheelspin is that the tires are turning at least twice as fast as they would if there was no slip. This, however, is far from set in stone. I think it's safe to say that there is wheelspin if tires produce smoke. You can off course always go into telemetry and compare the front to rear wheelspin values. I just don't think that considering the applied throttle is a measure of whether your rears are spinning or not. -Gregor

On Wed, 30 Aug 2000 09:43:58 GMT, "Colin Harris" <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >Don't think there's too much "h" in that "imho", Francois!!!!!! It's not a humble opinion so it must be his honest opinion. -- Slacker