Re: Since no-one seems to have mentioned this article, have a read.

>Heh...first he craps on Nascar Heat and then he craps on people on >usenet. What a dick. > >-- And I have to say I agree with the author of the article, Jeff Downey. We seem to have this attitude that the next game HAS to be the be-all end-all ulimate simulation that is perfect in every respect even though we know it will be far from perfect. When it does get released, we crap all over it and bitch about every little thing. Then, when someone says it's a good sim, we give the ever common "it's no GPL" line. And also, Jeff is correct about how the gaming companies work. Longevity doesn't make money. Repeat customers makes the big money. That's why Hasbro is going to make so many sequels to GP3. ----------------------------------------- Dan Belcher Team Racing Unlimited http://simcrash.00game.com

I don't understand why everyone is getting all up in arms about this article and vowing never to read this site again. Did I read a different article? I thought his points were valid. I picked up Heat the day it was released and I have been enjoying it due to the great car physics, very good AI, and eye candy, but it definitely has its share of problems. Mr. Downey mentioned the following: 1. "Yellow flags are a mess" If anyone has not had problems with the cautions(lack of and wacky AI during yellows), can I have your copy please. 2. Only 27 licensed drivers and no way to paint the AI cars True. 3. No save feature during races True, how much of a problem this is depends on the user. 4. Problems with the damage model True, if you are interested in playing the game in hardcore mode and expect something that at least approaches realistic damage. And I am not talking about visual damage. I for one couldn't care less about the visual damage, but I do want to pay the consequences of hitting the walls or using the bumper too much. If MGI would patch the game so that yellows are realistic and more frequent and the amount of damage is increased I would be one happy racer. Out of the box, Heat is a very good sim, but it has the possibility to be a great sim. I'm not getting my hopes up though, since "hardcore mode" is unsupported, I don't know how much they are going to spend on these things. Kyle Ed Bain <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Wed, 30 Aug 2000 18:17:53 +0100, Wooky <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >http://www.operationsports.com/reviewvault/articlesfull.asp?featureid=90 > > > > > >[email hidden] > > Thanks. Mr. Downey, apparently, wouldn't know a good sim if it > slapped him upside his haid. > > His site just came out of my bookmarks. > > Bye Jeff. >

http://www.operationsports.com/reviewvault/articlesfull.asp?featureid=90 [email hidden]

Wooky <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:VA.0000000e.01be19d4@p800... > http://www.operationsports.com/reviewvault/articlesfull.asp?featureid=90 > > > [email hidden] > yowch.... I know I wasn't exactly NH's biggest fn around here but that really came down heavy on NASCAR Heat.... It's much better than he gives it credit for IMO. Well at least judging by the demo and usually, demo's suck. My philosophy is usually that if the demo is good the game should be better. Heck, I still refer to GPL's Demo, that turned me off it big-time but I love the full sim. He didn't everything but compare it to F1'97 on the PSX...or did he? I gave up half way through :-)

On Wed, 30 Aug 2000 18:17:53 +0100, Wooky <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >http://www.operationsports.com/reviewvault/articlesfull.asp?featureid=90 > > >[email hidden] > Heh...first he craps on Nascar Heat and then he craps on people on usenet. What a dick. -- Slacker

Wooky wrote: > http://www.operationsports.com/reviewvault/articlesfull.asp?featureid=90 > Seems to have covered most of the bases! As an aside to the Madden-as-NASCAR-announcer comment in the great article linked above, has anyone been watching USA's coverage of the USTA Open? First round match between Agassi and Kim -- not a barn-burner, but interesting. USA's bozo court-side reporter finds John Madden in the stands and they -- I'm NOT making this up, kids! -- yak about FOOTBALL for TEN freaking minutes WHILE the match is going on. The reporter even asks Madden what he'd tell Kim if Madden was his coach! Another milepost on the way to the final decline of Western Civilization... BB

9Wright7 wrote: >My philosophy is usually that if the demo is good the game should be better. Apparently NOT the case in this guy's estimation.... BB

[email hidden] wrote: > Heh...first he craps on Nascar Heat and then he craps on people on > usenet. What a dick. > > -- > Slacker I think you just proved his second point... BB

Are you for real?

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>[email hidden] wrote: >> Heh...first he craps on Nascar Heat and then he craps on people on >> usenet. What a dick. >> >> -- >> Slacker > >I think you just proved his second point... > >BB

"However, that still doesn't change the fact, that the game has some problems. And a great physics engine alone won't keep it interesting for the true sim racer." ...most accurate statement of the year. "Wooky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:VA.0000000e.01be19d4@p800... > http://www.operationsports.com/reviewvault/articlesfull.asp?featureid=90 > > > [email hidden] >

On Wed, 30 Aug 2000 19:48:11 GMT, Barton Brown <[email hidden]> wrote: >9Wright7 wrote: >>My philosophy is usually that if the demo is good the game should be better. > >Apparently NOT the case in this guy's estimation.... First time I visited that site, last time I visited that site. What that guy is writing is just a big pile of.. of... pants! Andre >BB

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> And also, Jeff is correct about how the gaming > companies work. Longevity doesn't make money. > Repeat customers makes the big > money > ----------------------------------------- > Dan Belcher > Team Racing Unlimited > http://simcrash.00game.com >

Dead right. Having been associated with the games retail business for many years I can vouch for that. Turnover is the crux of the whole business....high volume. Get as much out the door as quickly as possible. And the numbers of people who have input to Usenet groups such as RAS have negligible effect upon overall sales. One hundred individuals bitching herein about damage modelling means nothing at the corporate cash register. BK Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Have too agree there, the guy really thinks he's something. According to him it seems like all we can hope for is a really good freeware hardcore sim... > First time I visited that site, last time I visited that site. > What that guy is writing is just a big pile of.. of... pants! > > Andre

I agree Kyle, don't worry about our friend Ed...he's like 70-some years old. "Kyle Roberts" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > I don't understand why everyone is getting all up in arms about thisarticle > and vowing never to read this site again. Did I read a different article?I > thought his points were valid. I picked up Heat the day it was releasedand > I have been enjoying it due to the great car physics, very good AI, andeye

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> candy, but it definitely has its share of problems. > > Mr. Downey mentioned the following: > > 1. "Yellow flags are a mess" > > If anyone has not had problems with the cautions(lack of and wacky AI

during

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> yellows), can I have your copy please. > > 2. Only 27 licensed drivers and no way to paint the AI cars > > True. > > 3. No save feature during races > > True, how much of a problem this is depends on the user. > > 4. Problems with the damage model > > True, if you are interested in playing the game in hardcore mode and

expect > something that at least approaches realistic damage. And I am not talking > about visual damage. I for one couldn't care less about the visual damage, > but I do want to pay the consequences of hitting the walls or using the > bumper too much. > > If MGI would patch the game so that yellows are realistic and morefrequent > and the amount of damage is increased I would be one happy racer. Out ofthe > box, Heat is a very good sim, but it has the possibility to be a greatsim. > I'm not getting my hopes up though, since "hardcore mode" is unsupported,I

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> don't know how much they are going to spend on these things. > > Kyle > > > Ed Bain <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Wed, 30 Aug 2000 18:17:53 +0100, Wooky <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >http://www.operationsports.com/reviewvault/articlesfull.asp?featureid=90 > > > > > > > > >[email hidden] > > > > Thanks. Mr. Downey, apparently, wouldn't know a good sim if it > > slapped him upside his haid. > > > > His site just came out of my bookmarks. > > > > Bye Jeff. > > > >

Slacker's not. I am. BB Red 86 Vet wrote:

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> > Are you for real? > > >[email hidden] wrote: > >> Heh...first he craps on Nascar Heat and then he craps on people on > >> usenet. What a dick. > >> > >> -- > >> Slacker > > > >I think you just proved his second point... > > > >BB

On Wed, 30 Aug 2000 19:59:02 GMT, Barton Brown <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >I think you just proved his second point... > >BB Maybe I'll start up a web site and add my social commentary on r.a.s. Maybe I'll have an asshole of the month section even. You'll have the honour of being my first selection. :-) -- Slacker

On 30 Aug 2000 22:41:26 GMT, [email hidden] (Dan Belcher) thus spoke:

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>And I have to say I agree with the author of the article, Jeff Downey. We seem >to have this attitude that the next game HAS to be the be-all end-all ulimate >simulation that is perfect in every respect even though we know it will be far >from perfect. When it does get released, we crap all over it and bitch about >every little thing. Then, when someone says it's a good sim, we give the ever >common "it's no GPL" line. And also, Jeff is correct about how the gaming >companies work. Longevity doesn't make money. Repeat customers makes the big >money. That's why Hasbro is going to make so many sequels to GP3. >

Don't you get the irony? First he complains about Nascar Heat for the exact same things people in here have been complaining about and then he puts down those people for complaining. So if I start a web site and put all my complaints there then that makes me not a whiner like I've been called in here? Get real. -- Slacker

[email hidden] wrote: > > Maybe I'll start up a web site and add my social commentary on r.a.s. > Maybe I'll have an asshole of the month section even. You'll have the > honour of being my first selection. :-) I regret I won't be able to attend the ceremony to pick up my award in person, however, I'd like to than the Academy and most of all my fans ... this is a very great honor, and I accept it on behalf of assholes everywhere,,, BB

If hard core sims aren't worth making for developers, how come NH is better then anything to date? It sure feels the most realistic to me out of any other Nascar sims even if it's not perfect in some area's. Looking forward to N4. Sure companies like Hasbro might not care how realistic the product is as long as it sells. But the developers of the sim itself don't have to feel that way. Especially if they have a passion for their work. They've been saying the same thing about hard core flight sims. Even though they're getting better. Battle of Britain and B17 2 are coming out soon and should be some of the best hard core flight sims to date. Why can't we just give some constructive critisism and be happy with what we've got for now. You can focus and complain about the things you don't have in life or be great full for what you do have. Sorry if I've offended any pessimists out there, this wasn't a reply to anyone in particular. Jim D. Wooky wrote in message ... >http://www.operationsports.com/reviewvault/articlesfull.asp?featureid=90 > > >[email hidden] >

Andre, I'd like to know exactly "what" in the article you find to be "a pile of...of...pants!" Seems to me that he makes all very valid points. The only real disagreement I have with his observations is his statement that frame rates are worse in the final release than the demo. I suspect that was only due to him running >16 cars in the final version, while the demo was limited to 16. And his complaint about having only 27 real NASCAR drivers is meaningless to me, since I think NH was advertised from the beginning as having this "limitation". But his observations about yellow flags and damge modeling cannot really be argued with, can they? The statements coming from Hasbro when the demo was released was that yellow flags and damage modeling were "disabled" in the demo, leading us (or at least me!) to "assume" that the full release version would be an improvement in those areas. I now believe Hasbro intentially left out yellows in the demo because they are not handled well in the sim. As for damage modeling, I don't see any improvement in the final version over the demo. Seems to still be "disabled" to me! Do you find his observation that the hardcore sim market does not drive the computer gaming industry to be untrue or simply disheartening to you? As depressing as his opinion is, I don't see how you can argue with it. The fact is, we (hardcore simmers in RAS) probably make up less than 1% of total sales for a game like Nascar Heat (yes...a complete guess on my part), so we can all go away and I'm not sure the software publishers will notice... Now you could certainly say that the review was unfair in that the author did not point out the positive aspects of Nascar Heat (Other than good physics modeling). He did not mention the lovely graphics, tracks, excellent opponent AI, and the nice alternative options for racing like "Beat the Heat" and "Race the Pro". I suspect he mentioned those items in previous review(s) since the positive aspects of NH were, for the most part, showcased in the demo. I have not read any of the previous "articles" so I can't confirm that. I am not trying to bash Nascar Heat, and I don't think the author was either. I purchased it and play it alot! In some ways, I find it more fun (and less frustrating :o) than GPL. Although I agree with the author and believe that there is no financial incentive for Hasbro to "fix" the game to appeal more to us hardcore simmers - I do hold out hope that the developers will patch it simply due to their love of the sport of NASCAR racing. All in all, I found the "review" to be on the money... Pat In article <[email hidden]>, Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Aug 2000 19:48:11 GMT, Barton Brown <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >9Wright7 wrote: > >>My philosophy is usually that if the demo is good the game shouldbe better.

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> > > >Apparently NOT the case in this guy's estimation.... > > First time I visited that site, last time I visited that site. > What that guy is writing is just a big pile of.. of... pants! > > Andre > > >BB > >

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

[email hidden] wrote:

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> > Do you find his observation that the hardcore sim market does not drive > the computer gaming industry to be untrue or simply disheartening to > you? As depressing as his opinion is, I don't see how you can argue > with it. The fact is, we (hardcore simmers in RAS) probably make up > less than 1% of total sales for a game like Nascar Heat (yes...a > complete guess on my part), so we can all go away and I'm not sure the > software publishers will notice... >

It's a lucky fact that people are more interested in racing on their PC than, say, flying. Because of that, the enthusiasts like MGI, Papy and, yes, even Geoff Crammond can create hardcore titles that appeal also to the more general public, even if sacrifices need to be made in terms of appeal to the true enthusiasts. With flight sims, the potenital market is nearly not as large even if you dumb down the sim for anyone to be able to fly it. Couple this with the high costs required to produce a hardcore title with lots of publishers competing, and you will see why the harcore flight sims are stagnating currently. -Gregor

Falcon 4.0 is THE SIM for hardcore fans. What did Hasbro do? They dropped all support for the game and fired the programming/deveolpment team. That should give you some inside information upon how Hasbro handles things -Cheers! "Gregor Veble" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> [email hidden] wrote: > > > > Do you find his observation that the hardcore sim market does not drive > > the computer gaming industry to be untrue or simply disheartening to > > you? As depressing as his opinion is, I don't see how you can argue > > with it. The fact is, we (hardcore simmers in RAS) probably make up > > less than 1% of total sales for a game like Nascar Heat (yes...a > > complete guess on my part), so we can all go away and I'm not sure the > > software publishers will notice... > > > > It's a lucky fact that people are more interested in racing on their PC > than, say, flying. Because of that, the enthusiasts like MGI, Papy and, > yes, even Geoff Crammond can create hardcore titles that appeal also to > the more general public, even if sacrifices need to be made in terms of > appeal to the true enthusiasts. > > With flight sims, the potenital market is nearly not as large even if > you dumb down the sim for anyone to be able to fly it. Couple this with > the high costs required to produce a hardcore title with lots of > publishers competing, and you will see why the harcore flight sims are > stagnating currently. > > -Gregor

On Thu, 31 Aug 2000 13:52:08 GMT, [email hidden] thus spoke:

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>Do you find his observation that the hardcore sim market does not drive >the computer gaming industry to be untrue or simply disheartening to >you? As depressing as his opinion is, I don't see how you can argue >with it. The fact is, we (hardcore simmers in RAS) probably make up >less than 1% of total sales for a game like Nascar Heat (yes...a >complete guess on my part), so we can all go away and I'm not sure the >software publishers will notice...

And if the people on the internet didn't demand more and more realism then all we would get are just arcade games and nothing more. We may be a small portion of the market, but our voice is a lot larger. Why would MGI put in a great physics model if the mass market wouldn't be able to tell the difference anyway? They could of just put in any crap model and still sell the same which would mean less development cost for them. -- Slacker

[email hidden] wrote:

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> > And if the people on the internet didn't demand more and more realism > then all we would get are just arcade games and nothing more. We may > be a small portion of the market, but our voice is a lot larger. Why > would MGI put in a great physics model if the mass market wouldn't be > able to tell the difference anyway? They could of just put in any crap > model and still sell the same which would mean less development cost > for them. > -- > Slacker

I think it is more due to the fact that they themselves are enthusiasts and most likely wouldn't produce anything they were not satisfied with. Making games is probably not merely a business for them, but a creative and fun process. -Gregor

On Thu, 31 Aug 2000 16:45:47 +0200, Gregor Veble <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >Making games is probably not merely a business for them, but a creative >and fun process. > >-Gregor And thx to them for that. -- Slacker

Gregor, Do you have facts to support your observation that there are more PC racing enthusiasts than PC flight simmers? When you look at the number of "hardcore" titles for racing and flying, I'm not sure the numbers support your statement... For hardcore racing, I can name only a few racing titles (Papy sims... especially GPL, Nascar Heat (kind of), and perhaps GP3 and F12000) that really appeal to hardcore racers. In flight sims, I'd say FS2000, Fly!, FU3, X-Plane and several military sims (Falcon 4.0, etc...) all appeal to hardcore simmers. I'd be willing to bet that Microsoft sells more copies of FS2000 than any of the current racing games. My guess is that there are a relatively few number of hardcore simmers, whether you're talking racing or flying - not enough for the publishers to market a product just to the hardcore group. I do agree that producing a high quality hardcore flight simulation these days costs more than producing a high quality racing sim. The development time and cost to produce a flight sim with accurate terrain, accurate flight models, great graphics, etc... just costs too much for most software publishers to want to commit to such projects. Fortunately, the passion of some individuals (like Richard Harvey of TRI) keeps the hardcore flight sim community moving forward. As someone who enjoys both hardcore racing and flight simulators, I appreciate the dedication of all developers who put their passion for their hobby (whether racing or flying) into new titles, appealing to the small hardcore minority even when it doesn't make financial sense. Pat > > > > It's a lucky fact that people are more interested in racing on theirPC > than, say, flying. Because of that, the enthusiasts like MGI, Papyand, > yes, even Geoff Crammond can create hardcore titles that appeal alsoto > the more general public, even if sacrifices need to be made in termsof > appeal to the true enthusiasts. > > With flight sims, the potenital market is nearly not as large even if > you dumb down the sim for anyone to be able to fly it. Couple thiswith > the high costs required to produce a hardcore title with lots of > publishers competing, and you will see why the harcore flight sims are > stagnating currently. > > -Gregor > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

If we need more interest in a flight sim... we need another big war... So lets all be glad flight sims are declining... I bet flight sims went up during the kosovo conflict, as people wanted to re-do the same thing they saw on TV. Gregor Veble <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> [email hidden] wrote: > > > > Do you find his observation that the hardcore sim market does not drive > > the computer gaming industry to be untrue or simply disheartening to > > you? As depressing as his opinion is, I don't see how you can argue > > with it. The fact is, we (hardcore simmers in RAS) probably make up > > less than 1% of total sales for a game like Nascar Heat (yes...a > > complete guess on my part), so we can all go away and I'm not sure the > > software publishers will notice... > > > > It's a lucky fact that people are more interested in racing on their PC > than, say, flying. Because of that, the enthusiasts like MGI, Papy and, > yes, even Geoff Crammond can create hardcore titles that appeal also to > the more general public, even if sacrifices need to be made in terms of > appeal to the true enthusiasts. > > With flight sims, the potenital market is nearly not as large even if > you dumb down the sim for anyone to be able to fly it. Couple this with > the high costs required to produce a hardcore title with lots of > publishers competing, and you will see why the harcore flight sims are > stagnating currently. > > -Gregor

Ed Bain <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Wed, 30 Aug 2000 18:17:53 +0100, Wooky <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >http://www.operationsports.com/reviewvault/articlesfull.asp?featureid=90 > > > > > >[email hidden] > > Thanks. Mr. Downey, apparently, wouldn't know a good sim if it > slapped him upside his haid. > > His site just came out of my bookmarks. > > Bye Jeff.

He's crushed, I'm sure. ;-) -- Randy "If you have a home that is mobile and 12 cars that aren't, you might be a redneck." >

In article <[email hidden]>, Gregor Veble <[email hidden]> wrote: > It's a lucky fact that people are more interested in racing on theirPC than, say, flying. Flight sims are the largest-selling simulation for the PC in the world....period. BK Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

I probably wasn't very clear, I wanted to say that not only hardcore racing enthusiasts buy sims, but driving fans in general. People are much more familiar with driving, while flight is though of as a difficult activity and for many too hard to be any fun. MS Flight Sim may be the most sold sim (and there are other factors contributing to this apart from the quality of the product), but if you take all the driving games (including sims) together, they most likely outsell all the flying games and sims. The average buyer of these products, however, doesn't really care much about the realism. He or she may get a hardcore realism racing sim, and if it is suited for him or her as well (like the GP series and Nascar Heat, and unlike GPL), he or she wil be pleased with it. That way the hardcore racing sims can coexists with the other driving games and get their market share, as long as they keep the broad appeal. My point is, the hardcore driving sims, if properly produced, may get a fair share of the casual gamer market, while for flight sims (apart from the MS series, where the brand is probably more important than the product) this is hardly so. -Gregor [email hidden] wrote:

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> > Gregor, > > Do you have facts to support your observation that there are more PC > racing enthusiasts than PC flight simmers? When you look at the number > of "hardcore" titles for racing and flying, I'm not sure the numbers > support your statement... For hardcore racing, I can name only a few > racing titles (Papy sims... especially GPL, Nascar Heat (kind of), and > perhaps GP3 and F12000) that really appeal to hardcore racers. In > flight sims, I'd say FS2000, Fly!, FU3, X-Plane and several military > sims (Falcon 4.0, etc...) all appeal to hardcore simmers. I'd be > willing to bet that Microsoft sells more copies of FS2000 than any of > the current racing games. > > My guess is that there are a relatively few number of hardcore simmers, > whether you're talking racing or flying - not enough for the publishers > to market a product just to the hardcore group. I do agree that > producing a high quality hardcore flight simulation these days costs > more than producing a high quality racing sim. The development time > and cost to produce a flight sim with accurate terrain, accurate flight > models, great graphics, etc... just costs too much for most software > publishers to want to commit to such projects. Fortunately, the > passion of some individuals (like Richard Harvey of TRI) keeps the > hardcore flight sim community moving forward. > > As someone who enjoys both hardcore racing and flight simulators, I > appreciate the dedication of all developers who put their passion for > their hobby (whether racing or flying) into new titles, appealing to > the small hardcore minority even when it doesn't make financial sense. >

Normally, I just lurk here in RAS, but since my column is the topic of discussion, I should probably post. First, let me defend my statements regarding NASCAR Heat. If taken in the context of the one column, yes, they do look rather harsh and off the cuff. However, for fourteen days straight I previewed this game answering hundreds of questions from readers. I covered every great point this game has to offer in that preview. I also discussed the game several times in my weekly column. As a general rule, the majority of the audience for that column have already read the preview and previous columns. That is the context in which I wrote it. In the preview, I talked about the excellent physics, aggressive AI, awesome Beat the Heat mode, etc. However, in the early releases I had nothing to complain about, as everything that was enabled worked very well. In my previous columns, I mentioned that the one thing that troubled me was the fact that cautions had not yet been enabled. I also stated this when the demo was released. My gut feeling was that they must not be working properly, or the BETA and demo would have the feature enabled. So, when the final release hit the shelves, and I was lucky enough to find a copy, I pointed out that my fears were in deed true. I think that even the most ardent Heat supporter would have to agree that 52 laps under caution is a bit too many! The 27 licensed drivers is really not that big of a deal. But, since I captured screens of several drivers not in the final version during the preview, I thought I should point that out. Same thing with the lack of cumulative damage. I also want to point out that in that column, I said the game warranted a purchase. If I absolutely hated the game, why would I say that? Truth be told, I really like NASCAR Heat. However, I'm not going to mask the fact that the game shipped with some problems. I also stated in the column that I was confident that Ed Martin and Rich Garcia, and the rest of the folks on the development team would address and fix these problems. I still firmly believe that. As for my comments about the whining and crying, I wasn't necessarily referring to RAS. However, some of that may apply here as well. Well thought criticism is one thing, but the senseless crying about obscure features on the developer's message board is another. If any of you have visited the Heat message board, you'll know what I'm talking about. I think the voice of real racing game fans is important and needed. For the most part, the conversation here in RAS is of that type. Hell, I've defended this very newsgroup several times in my column. I was poking a bit of fun at the folks that called themselves "hardcore simmers" that wanted things like a speedometer in the car, or a spotter telling them they did a good job. If that's what the "hardcore simmer" wants, then count me out. I think some of the confusion stemmed from the fact that others outside of RAS call the regulars here hardcore simulation fans. Which is true. However, how many of you go around calling yourself a "hardcore simmer"? All I was doing was poking some fun at a few idiots. I was also explaining the industry and the facts as I see them to my audience. I've been doing that column for over 2 years spanning 3 different Internet sites. Throughout that time, I've learned that you'll find some that agree with you, and some that don't. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. I give mine every Monday in my column. And will continue to do so. You can agree with me. You can disagree with me. It doesn't matter. But, rest assured that what you read is my honest opinion. I'm not going to gloss over the facts in order to impress a developer, publisher, or reader. This is a hobby for me. I have nothing to gain, or a hidden agenda. I do it because I love racing and racing games. In closing, I have to ask, what is a pile of pants? You'll have to forgive me for being a somewhat unsophisticated Midwestern boy. I've just never heard that term. -Jeff Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

In article Ed Bain wrote:

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> > Thanks. Mr. Downey, apparently, wouldn't know a good sim if it > slapped him upside his haid. > > His site just came out of my bookmarks. > > Bye Jeff.

Ok Ed, you might be right. I was just slapped in the head with Swamp Buggy Racing and I didn't like it. ;) In all seriousness though, what did I say that was incorrect? You seem to think that anyone that points out a flaw in this game is somehow incapable of knowing a good sim. I'm not flaming you at all. We've had correspondence in the past, and I respect you opinion. However, I'm still curious to know what I wrote that was incorrect. I never stated I didn't like the game. In fact, I said it warranted a purchase. I've also not done a complete review of the game yet. You can delete my bookmark, never read anything I post, or even ignore my very existence. But, please just answer my one question here. -Jeff Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

On Fri, 01 Sep 2000 10:57:40 GMT, [email hidden] thus spoke:

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>Normally, I just lurk here in RAS, but since my column is the topic of >discussion, I should probably post. > >First, let me defend my statements regarding NASCAR Heat. If taken in >the context of the one column, yes, they do look rather harsh and off >the cuff. However, for fourteen days straight I previewed this game >answering hundreds of questions from readers. I covered every great >point this game has to offer in that preview. I also discussed the >game several times in my weekly column. As a general rule, the >majority of the audience for that column have already read the preview >and previous columns. That is the context in which I wrote it. > >In the preview, I talked about the excellent physics, aggressive AI, >awesome Beat the Heat mode, etc. However, in the early releases I had >nothing to complain about, as everything that was enabled worked very >well. In my previous columns, I mentioned that the one thing that >troubled me was the fact that cautions had not yet been enabled. I >also stated this when the demo was released. My gut feeling was that >they must not be working properly, or the BETA and demo would have the >feature enabled. So, when the final release hit the shelves, and I was >lucky enough to find a copy, I pointed out that my fears were in deed >true. I think that even the most ardent Heat supporter would have to >agree that 52 laps under caution is a bit too many! > >The 27 licensed drivers is really not that big of a deal. But, since I >captured screens of several drivers not in the final version during the >preview, I thought I should point that out. Same thing with the lack >of cumulative damage. > >I also want to point out that in that column, I said the game warranted >a purchase. If I absolutely hated the game, why would I say that? >Truth be told, I really like NASCAR Heat. However, I'm not going to >mask the fact that the game shipped with some problems. I also stated >in the column that I was confident that Ed Martin and Rich Garcia, and >the rest of the folks on the development team would address and fix >these problems. I still firmly believe that. > >As for my comments about the whining and crying, I wasn't necessarily >referring to RAS. However, some of that may apply here as well. Well >thought criticism is one thing, but the senseless crying about obscure >features on the developer's message board is another. If any of you >have visited the Heat message board, you'll know what I'm talking about.

<snip> Thx for the explanation. I agree with your complaints about NH. I just couldn't understand the part about the slagging off of people here when they made those same complaints. It seems I misunderstood you though and you were talking more about the NH message board run by Hasbro. I haven't read those messages myself and don't intend to. -- Slacker

Like most flames here, it has nothing to do with you. People seem to use this as a way to release stress or unhappiness over something else. And he's taking these out on you... In article <8oo2v7$79s$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] wrote:

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> In article Ed Bain wrote: > > > > Thanks. Mr. Downey, apparently, wouldn't know a good sim if it > > slapped him upside his haid. > > > > His site just came out of my bookmarks. > > > > Bye Jeff. > > Ok Ed, you might be right. I was just slapped in the head with Swamp > Buggy Racing and I didn't like it. ;) > > In all seriousness though, what did I say that was incorrect? > > You seem to think that anyone that points out a flaw in this game is > somehow incapable of knowing a good sim. I'm not flaming you at all. > We've had correspondence in the past, and I respect you opinion. > However, I'm still curious to know what I wrote that was incorrect. I > never stated I didn't like the game. In fact, I said it warranted a > purchase. I've also not done a complete review of the game yet. > > You can delete my bookmark, never read anything I post, or even ignore > my very existence. But, please just answer my one question here. > > -Jeff > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. >

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

On Fri, 01 Sep 2000 10:57:40 GMT, [email hidden] wrote: >Normally, I just lurk here in RAS, but since my column is the topic of >discussion, I should probably post. Good idea :)

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>First, let me defend my statements regarding NASCAR Heat. If taken in >the context of the one column, yes, they do look rather harsh and off >the cuff. However, for fourteen days straight I previewed this game >answering hundreds of questions from readers. I covered every great >point this game has to offer in that preview. I also discussed the >game several times in my weekly column. As a general rule, the >majority of the audience for that column have already read the preview >and previous columns. That is the context in which I wrote it.

<snip> There was a link to your article here on RAS. I read it, and I thought that you were being WAY too harsh with NH. You only mentioned all its bad points, without mentioning how fantastic it is besides the bad points. I didn't read your previews, and I'm glad to read that you did mention all the beauties of NH in your previews. I hope you can understand that I completely disagreed with you when I only have read this article and not the previews. It would have been better if you would have referred to the previews for all the good things about NH. I agree with all the bad points you mentioned. But after NH was released I read some opinions like 'I won't buy it because the cars turns to the right on the straights' or 'It sucks because there are no tobacco adverts on the car'. No sim is perfect, and NH needs some patches badly. You just have to see that there is a fantastic base engine here which can lead us to an incredible sim with some patches and user updates, unlike GP3 and Nascar 3, which are still mainly using the engine of their former versions. Anyway, thanks for explaining, appreciate it :) >In closing, I have to ask, what is a pile of pants? You'll have to >forgive me for being a somewhat unsophisticated Midwestern boy. I've >just never heard that term. I just learned the meaning of Pants a couple of days ago myself, when I asked why a certain addon track for GPL is called 'The Pants Ring'. Well, it turned out to be that 'pants' is another English words for sh*t :) Andre >-Jeff > > >Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ >Before you buy.

On Fri, 01 Sep 2000 11:12:51 GMT, [email hidden] wrote: <snip> >You can delete my bookmark, never read anything I post, or even ignore >my very existence. But, please just answer my one question here. Don't feel offended Jeff, Ed has the habit of plonking someone immediately when he disagrees with him :) Andre >-Jeff > > >Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ >Before you buy.

In article <[email hidden]>, Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> <snip> > > There was a link to your article here on RAS. I read it, and I thought > that you were being WAY too harsh with NH. You only mentioned all its > bad points, without mentioning how fantastic it is besides the bad > points. > I didn't read your previews, and I'm glad to read that you did mention > all the beauties of NH in your previews. I hope you can understand > that I completely disagreed with you when I only have read this > article and not the previews. It would have been better if you would > have referred to the previews for all the good things about NH. >

I will do this in the future. It was my mistake by assuming that my audience was reading everything I wrote. ;-) Like one astute member here said, I'm probably too full of myself.

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> I agree with all the bad points you mentioned. But after NH was > released I read some opinions like 'I won't buy it because the cars > turns to the right on the straights' or 'It sucks because there are no > tobacco adverts on the car'. No sim is perfect, and NH needs some > patches badly. You just have to see that there is a fantastic base > engine here which can lead us to an incredible sim with some patches > and user updates, unlike GP3 and Nascar 3, which are still mainly > using the engine of their former versions.

I agree with you about the engine, it is solid, and I see a world of potential. I've said this many times. One of my favorite things to do right now is hot lap on several of the tracks, as to me the "feel" of a stock car is almot dead-on. However, as I stated in my column, a terrific physics engine is only going to hold the game so long. If the cautions aren't fixed, and you can consistently "beat and bang" your way to the front, I don't see the game having a long lifespan. Those remarks you mention above came from the "hardcore simmers" I was poking fun at. Toboacco ads not being present is simply a sign of the times. We aren't EVER going to see them in an officially released NASCAR game. The car turning to the right is by design, and it is also correct. I've heard many arguements on the fact that it is too strong. However, I disagree. I drive street stocks, which is worlds away from Winston Cup. But, when we set up a car for high banking, I litterally have to turn the wheel to the right to make the car go straight. If you watch any of the in-car cameras during a Cup race on a high banked track, they are constantly "sawing" at the wheel. This is what has to be done to "hold yer line". > Anyway, thanks for explaining, appreciate it :) Not a problem. In the past, I refrained from posting here as I don't want to seem as the type that is constantly hawking or promoting Operationsports.com. I have a forum in which I get my ample say. I always felt that I was somehow infringing on others rights by putting my name in here several times a day. Maybe I'll start to post a bit here now, as I do visit several times a day. > > I just learned the meaning of Pants a couple of days ago myself, when > I asked why a certain addon track for GPL is called 'The Pants Ring'. > Well, it turned out to be that 'pants' is another English words for > sh*t :) Ah ha! Well, I guess that tells me what I need to know. Ha ha ha...I'll try to use the expression sometime, just to confuse the hell out of whoever I'm talking to. Thanks for the explanation. -Jeff Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

In article <[email hidden]>, no_email wrote:

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> <snip> > Thx for the explanation. I agree with your complaints about NH. I just > couldn't understand the part about the slagging off of people here > when they made those same complaints. It seems I misunderstood you > though and you were talking more about the NH message board run by > Hasbro. I haven't read those messages myself and don't intend to. > -- > Slacker >

Well, if I'm going to slag off on RAS, more than likely I'll just do it here. ;-) Legit complaints and constructive criticism are great. Bitching about senseless things and calling yourself hardcore for the sake of being "kewl" are things that bug me. It's like I said earlier, how many of the regulars here go up to people and introduce themselves as "hardcore simmer"? Very few if any, I bet. -Jeff Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

[email hidden] wrote in message <8oo22u$64l$[email hidden]>...

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>I've been doing that column for over 2 years spanning 3 different >Internet sites. Throughout that time, I've learned that you'll find >some that agree with you, and some that don't. Everyone is entitled to >an opinion. I give mine every Monday in my column. And will continue >to do so. You can agree with me. You can disagree with me. It >doesn't matter. But, rest assured that what you read is my honest >opinion. I'm not going to gloss over the facts in order to impress a >developer, publisher, or reader. This is a hobby for me. I have >nothing to gain, or a hidden agenda. I do it because I love racing and >racing games.

Never, ever, lose your critical eye. Too many game reviews these days are sycophantic pieces of drivel, aimed for boring suburban plebes who wouldn't know quality if it bit them on their backside. A similar situation developed in film reviewing a long time ago - I really do miss reviewers of the calibre of Vincent Canby and David Denby. So let the criticism slide off you like water off a duck's back and keep up the great work. Bendito;

On Fri, 01 Sep 2000 18:18:54 GMT, [email hidden] wrote: >> I agree with all the bad points you mentioned. But after NH was >> released I read some opinions like 'I won't buy it because the cars >> turns to the right on the straights' or 'It sucks because there are no >> tobacco adverts on the car'. Just to make myself clear, I forgot to add here that I indeed found these comments not justified. I don't know a thing about Nascar racing (I'm from Europe :) but as soon as I felt the wheel turning to the right on the straights I realized that this would also be the case in real life. The 'no tobacco adverts' is, leaving aside that there are some very good reasons why the adds aren't there, imo such a minor detail that this is hardly worth mentioning, let alone having these big discussions about it. >Those remarks you mention above came from the "hardcore simmers" I was >poking fun at. Toboacco ads not being present is simply a sign of the >times. We aren't EVER going to see them in an officially released >NASCAR game. > >The car turning to the right is by design, and it is also correct.<snip> >Not a problem. In the past, I refrained from posting here as I don't >want to seem as the type that is constantly hawking or promoting >Operationsports.com. I have a forum in which I get my ample say. I >always felt that I was somehow infringing on others rights by putting >my name in here several times a day. Maybe I'll start to post a bit >here now, as I do visit several times a day. You're welcome to do so Jeff :) Andre

Gregor, Thanks for clarifying. I still disagree with the majority of your statements, but at least I understand what you are trying to say. A bit off topic to discuss flight sims in RAS, but I must say I always find it interesting to hear people's opinion that Miscrosoft sells tons of its MSFS series of sims primarily because of its brand name. Seems funny that they haven't been just as wildly successful with other entertainment titles, such as their baseball, basketball, racing, golf, etc... titles. After all, those games all said "Microsoft" on their boxes too. Maybe... just maybe... some people keep buying MSFS because its a pretty damn good product, with an open architecture allowing people to easily create/modify aircraft, scenery, addons, etc... I feel a little weird defending Microsoft about "anything" (I've been known to bash them with the best of 'em...) and to be honest, I don't even play MSFS (I prefer TRI's Fly!). But I do take exception to your statement that MSFS is a successful product primarily because of its brand. If anything, I think more people buy MSFS DESPITE its brand - not BECAUSE of it! Patrick In article <[email hidden]>, Gregor Veble <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> I probably wasn't very clear, I wanted to say that not only hardcore > racing enthusiasts buy sims, but driving fans in general. People are > much more familiar with driving, while flight is though of as a > difficult activity and for many too hard to be any fun. > > MS Flight Sim may be the most sold sim (and there are other factors > contributing to this apart from the quality of the product), but if

you > take all the driving games (including sims) together, they most likely > outsell all the flying games and sims. The average buyer of these > products, however, doesn't really care much about the realism. He orshe > may get a hardcore realism racing sim, and if it is suited for him or > her as well (like the GP series and Nascar Heat, and unlike GPL), heor > she wil be pleased with it. That way the hardcore racing sims can > coexists with the other driving games and get their market share, as > long as they keep the broad appeal. > > My point is, the hardcore driving sims, if properly produced, may geta > fair share of the casual gamer market, while for flight sims (apartfrom

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> the MS series, where the brand is probably more important than the > product) this is hardly so. > > -Gregor > > [email hidden] wrote: > > > > Gregor, > > > > Do you have facts to support your observation that there are more PC > > racing enthusiasts than PC flight simmers? When you look at the

number > > of "hardcore" titles for racing and flying, I'm not sure the numbers > > support your statement... For hardcore racing, I can name only afew > > racing titles (Papy sims... especially GPL, Nascar Heat (kind of),and > > perhaps GP3 and F12000) that really appeal to hardcore racers. In > > flight sims, I'd say FS2000, Fly!, FU3, X-Plane and several military > > sims (Falcon 4.0, etc...) all appeal to hardcore simmers. I'd be > > willing to bet that Microsoft sells more copies of FS2000 than anyof > > the current racing games. > > > > My guess is that there are a relatively few number of hardcoresimmers, > > whether you're talking racing or flying - not enough for thepublishers > > to market a product just to the hardcore group. I do agree that > > producing a high quality hardcore flight simulation these days costs > > more than producing a high quality racing sim. The development time > > and cost to produce a flight sim with accurate terrain, accurateflight

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> > models, great graphics, etc... just costs too much for most software > > publishers to want to commit to such projects. Fortunately, the > > passion of some individuals (like Richard Harvey of TRI) keeps the > > hardcore flight sim community moving forward. > > > > As someone who enjoys both hardcore racing and flight simulators, I > > appreciate the dedication of all developers who put their passion

for > > their hobby (whether racing or flying) into new titles, appealing to > > the small hardcore minority even when it doesn't make financialsense. > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

"Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

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> Quote: > "I said it in the preview, and I�ll say it again, this is the best > physics engine we�ve ever seen in a racing game. Now, I know a lot of > you will disagree with that. But, I�m calling it like I see it. GPL > is fantastic. However, I still give the edge to Heat." > > Downey, that's just big bullpants! He he. > Seriously, I'm absolutely delighted with the physics of NH, it simply > feels fantastic. But better than GPL? Nah... > Let's keep it on 'they're equal'... :) > > Andre

Ok, we can do that for the sake of arguement. ;-) In all honesty, I don't consider either game to be completely perfect by any means. Heat and GPL are definitely the head of the class. I guess for me, the deciding factor lies in the fact that I have a reference in which to compare NASCAR Heat. I've never been in an actual Cup car, but I've been fairly close, in a late model and a Super Truck, and the "feel" is VERY, VERY close. With GPL, I have no real point of reference to compare. Sure, it seems to "feel" authentic, although I have a hard time imagining the rear ends of those cars being quite that "loose". So, that's my reasoning behind the statement. Like I said, I don't expect very many people to agree with me. The best thing though is that we now have another game that requires a good degree of skill to drive. -Jeff

On Tue, 5 Sep 2000 06:21:13 -0500, "Jeff Downey" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Ok, we can do that for the sake of arguement. ;-) > >In all honesty, I don't consider either game to be completely perfect by any >means. Heat and GPL are definitely the head of the class. > >I guess for me, the deciding factor lies in the fact that I have a reference >in which to compare NASCAR Heat. I've never been in an actual Cup car, but >I've been fairly close, in a late model and a Super Truck, and the "feel" >is VERY, VERY close.

I've never driving something even close to a Cup car, but after an hour with the demo of NH I knew the physics were fantastic. It felt like I expected to feel a Cup car. Same with GLP, unlike Tom Pabst I've never driven a Lotus 49, but again the car behaves like I expect it to behave. The more I read about those cars, the more footage I see, the more convinced I become that it should behave like it does in GPL. I agree with the cars being a bit too loose, especially after even Kaemmer said this, but on the other hand that makes driving the cars in GPL simply even more fun. Andre

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> >With GPL, I have no real point of reference to compare. Sure, it seems to >"feel" authentic, although I have a hard time imagining the rear ends of >those cars being quite that "loose". > >So, that's my reasoning behind the statement. Like I said, I don't expect >very many people to agree with me. The best thing though is that we now >have another game that requires a good degree of skill to drive. > >-Jeff > > >