GPL level cart Sim too difficult for everybody..........

Id love for papyrus to produce a cart sim, the only problem with a 'gpl level' realistic cart sim is that it would be impossible to catch slides IMO... Im pretty good at gpl after 2 years at it, and the cars can be slid quite a way before youve 'lost it' and they go over the edge. My eyes are trained to pick up on when the back end is sliding more than the front. When i watch CART incar footage, i see the drivers opposite locking quite regularly, but id be damned if i could see the slide starting. We really do need a sense of balance, or unrealistic cars that can be slid around loads and still caught (like nheats...). Maybe its just the camera angles involved incar... :( You can have a 100% realistic sim (like GPL) that even real drivers say is too hard because they lack the physical feedback they require to drive quickly. There is little substitute for that. Modern F1 and CART cars lose its way before the gpl cars do, so catching slides is going to be a whole new ball game, and judging by the incar shots in real life, something that no one will be able to do. discuss... pez

Well obviously you have to take into account that 100% accuracy would be too much But by using the GPL engine they now have a physics engine will simulates real world forces and stuff. And what they hell are driver aids for anyway ?? :) CART!!!!!!!! http://www.petitionpetition.com/cgi/petition.cgi?id=741 sign the CART sim petition !!!!!

Quoted text (31 lines)

>Id love for papyrus to produce a cart sim, the only problem with a 'gpl >level' realistic cart sim is that it would be impossible to catch slides >IMO... > >Im pretty good at gpl after 2 years at it, and the cars can be slid quite a >way before youve 'lost it' and they go over the edge. > >My eyes are trained to pick up on when the back end is sliding more than the >front. > >When i watch CART incar footage, i see the drivers opposite locking quite >regularly, but id be damned if i could see the slide starting. > >We really do need a sense of balance, or unrealistic cars that can be slid >around loads and still caught (like nheats...). > >Maybe its just the camera angles involved incar... > >:( > >You can have a 100% realistic sim (like GPL) that even real drivers say is >too hard because they lack the physical feedback they require to drive >quickly. There is little substitute for that. Modern F1 and CART cars lose >its way before the gpl cars do, so catching slides is going to be a whole new >ball game, and judging by the incar shots in real life, something that no one >will be able to do. > >discuss... > >pez >

pez <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8or9k8$5eh$[email hidden]... > Id love for papyrus to produce a cart sim, the only problem with a 'gpl > level' realistic cart sim is that it would be impossible to catch slides > IMO... > > Im pretty good at gpl after 2 years at it, and the cars can be slid quitea > way before youve 'lost it' and they go over the edge. > > My eyes are trained to pick up on when the back end is sliding more thanthe

Quoted text (14 lines)

> front. > > When i watch CART incar footage, i see the drivers opposite locking quite > regularly, but id be damned if i could see the slide starting. > > We really do need a sense of balance, or unrealistic cars that can be slid > around loads and still caught (like nheats...). > > Maybe its just the camera angles involved incar... > > > > You can have a 100% realistic sim (like GPL) that even real drivers say is

too hard because they lack the physical feedback they require to drive quickly. There is little substitute for that. Modern F1 and CART cars lose its way before the gpl cars do, so catching slides is going to be a whole new ball game, and judging by the incar shots in real life, something that no one will be able to do. > > discuss... > I don't believe CART cars or F1 cars are more difficult than GPL like cars. Jacques showed that at Monza last year! In GPL, the unbelievable amount of grip, I mean Lack of grip lets the are just skid over the top f the track surface no worries. Modern F1 or CART machines have incredible amount of grip, (which is a reason why many claim sims are arcades...that they have too much grip..that's untrue) The rubber will stick to the ground at extremes of speeds because the tyres literally become sticky as they become hotter and hotter. The reason for the slides on TV is aggressive driving, Montoya is someone who does this a lot, Schumacher and JV too. Its not because the car or the rear end looses grip in the turn. Not at all! Thats what some people get confused with and call GP3 an arcade game, see? The reason for the opposite lock is what they call "power oversteer". You get this in GPL, keep the revs high as you exit the corner and floor it, the better driver will correct this without even thinking or feeling the rear slip, it's a reflex!! The car isn't losing grip. What happens is that the front wheels rip the road yet as the power is applied out of the corner the rear wheels begin to move faster than the car. Thus the correction. Ok, It's hard to explain right but its a different sort of correction. The amounts of grip displayed in sims like OF1R is unrealistic but GP3 is almost spot on IMO. People are just too used to the understeer and the tyres not gripping the road as in GPL. I'm sure real life racers would agree with me that softer compounds literally make the car stick to the road.

Hard to believe this continues to be a topic of discussion....ever heard the phrase "apples & oranges" <VBG> DN pez <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8or9k8$5eh$[email hidden]... > Id love for papyrus to produce a cart sim, the only problem with a 'gpl > level' realistic cart sim is that it would be impossible to catch slides > IMO... > > Im pretty good at gpl after 2 years at it, and the cars can be slid quitea > way before youve 'lost it' and they go over the edge. > > My eyes are trained to pick up on when the back end is sliding more thanthe

Quoted text (14 lines)

> front. > > When i watch CART incar footage, i see the drivers opposite locking quite > regularly, but id be damned if i could see the slide starting. > > We really do need a sense of balance, or unrealistic cars that can be slid > around loads and still caught (like nheats...). > > Maybe its just the camera angles involved incar... > > > > You can have a 100% realistic sim (like GPL) that even real drivers say is

too hard because they lack the physical feedback they require to drive quickly. There is little substitute for that. Modern F1 and CART cars lose its way before the gpl cars do, so catching slides is going to be a whole new ball game, and judging by the incar shots in real life, something that no one will be able to do.

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > discuss... > > pez > > >

"pez" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8or9k8$5eh$[email hidden]... > Id love for papyrus to produce a cart sim, the only problem with a 'gpl > level' realistic cart sim is that it would be impossible to catch slides > IMO... > > Im pretty good at gpl after 2 years at it, and the cars can be slid quitea > way before youve 'lost it' and they go over the edge. > > My eyes are trained to pick up on when the back end is sliding more thanthe

Quoted text (14 lines)

> front. > > When i watch CART incar footage, i see the drivers opposite locking quite > regularly, but id be damned if i could see the slide starting. > > We really do need a sense of balance, or unrealistic cars that can be slid > around loads and still caught (like nheats...). > > Maybe its just the camera angles involved incar... > > > > You can have a 100% realistic sim (like GPL) that even real drivers say is

too hard because they lack the physical feedback they require to drive quickly. There is little substitute for that. Modern F1 and CART cars lose its way before the gpl cars do, so catching slides is going to be a whole new ball game, and judging by the incar shots in real life, something that no one will be able to do. > > discuss... > > pez > Bullshit. When GPL first came out the main complaint was "Its too hard". I haven't heard that complaint about it for 2 years now. Others said if it had rain in it no one could drive it, again I say bullshit. I never thought GPL was too hard. When I drove that lotus out of the Glen Pits and through the esses for the first time I knew this was my new sim of choice. After 2 years Im still impressed. GPL gives you all the feedback you need to know exactly what the car is doing or is about to do it just takes time to realise what they are, thats why a real driver would see it as being hard, If the road was wet I could see no problems keeping the car on the track. As for a Cart sim with the GPL engine I would love it. Lets face it driving a late model open wheel car would be really hard, it might take you a year to get the hang of it. Thats what I want from my racing sims, not this GP3 crap where withing 5 laps you have the hang of it. If its not a simulation then dont call it a simulation. To be honest IMO todays f1 cars would feel more like the GPL cars than any other sim on the market today. Physics is Physics its not about how much grip a car has its the way the weight is transferred. GPL has it the rest dont. Driver aids can be there for the plebs who need it but for those who want it give them realism. Racing cars is hard work so make the sims hard work too. Todd.

Here!..Here!... very well said. Steve! "T.Galvin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > "pez" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8or9k8$5eh$[email hidden]... > > Id love for papyrus to produce a cart sim, the only problem with a 'gpl > > level' realistic cart sim is that it would be impossible to catch slides > > IMO... > > > > Im pretty good at gpl after 2 years at it, and the cars can be slid

quite

Quoted text (8 lines)

> a > > way before youve 'lost it' and they go over the edge. > > > > My eyes are trained to pick up on when the back end is sliding more than > the > > front. > > > > When i watch CART incar footage, i see the drivers opposite locking

quite > > regularly, but id be damned if i could see the slide starting. > > > > We really do need a sense of balance, or unrealistic cars that can beslid

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > around loads and still caught (like nheats...). > > > > Maybe its just the camera angles involved incar... > > > > > > > > > You can have a 100% realistic sim (like GPL) that even real drivers say

is > too hard because they lack the physical feedback they require to drive > quickly. There is little substitute for that. Modern F1 and CART carslose

Quoted text (12 lines)

> its way before the gpl cars do, so catching slides is going to be a whole > new ball game, and judging by the incar shots in real life, something that > no one will be able to do. > > > > discuss... > > > > pez > > > > Bullshit. > When GPL first came out the main complaint was "Its too hard". I haven't > heard that complaint about it for 2 years now. Others said if it had rain

in > it no one could drive it, again I say bullshit. I never thought GPL wastoo > hard. When I drove that lotus out of the Glen Pits and through the essesfor > the first time I knew this was my new sim of choice. After 2 years Imstill > impressed. GPL gives you all the feedback you need to know exactly whatthe > car is doing or is about to do it just takes time to realise what theyare, > thats why a real driver would see it as being hard, If the road was wet I > could see no problems keeping the car on the track. > As for a Cart sim with the GPL engine I would love it. Lets face itdriving

Quoted text (15 lines)

> a late model open wheel car would be really hard, it might take you a year > to get the hang of it. Thats what I want from my racing sims, not this GP3 > crap where withing 5 laps you have the hang of it. If its not a simulation > then dont call it a simulation. To be honest IMO todays f1 cars would feel > more like the GPL cars than any other sim on the market today. Physics is > Physics its not about how much grip a car has its the way the weight is > transferred. GPL has it the rest dont. > Driver aids can be there for the plebs who need it but for those who want > it give them realism. Racing cars is hard work so make the sims hard work > too. > > Todd. > > >

Wings and tunnel bottoms make for a whole different aero package. While the '00 versions don't compare witht he downforce that he early 90's cars produced....you can bet the modern CART Champ car has tons more downforce than the gpl cars. dave henrie "pez" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8or9k8$5eh$[email hidden]... > Id love for papyrus to produce a cart sim, the only problem with a 'gpl > level' realistic cart sim is that it would be impossible to catch slides > IMO... > > Im pretty good at gpl after 2 years at it, and the cars can be slid quitea > way before youve 'lost it' and they go over the edge. > > My eyes are trained to pick up on when the back end is sliding more thanthe

Quoted text (14 lines)

> front. > > When i watch CART incar footage, i see the drivers opposite locking quite > regularly, but id be damned if i could see the slide starting. > > We really do need a sense of balance, or unrealistic cars that can be slid > around loads and still caught (like nheats...). > > Maybe its just the camera angles involved incar... > > > > You can have a 100% realistic sim (like GPL) that even real drivers say is

too hard because they lack the physical feedback they require to drive quickly. There is little substitute for that. Modern F1 and CART cars lose its way before the gpl cars do, so catching slides is going to be a whole new ball game, and judging by the incar shots in real life, something that no one will be able to do.

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > discuss... > > pez > > >

Well said. Jan. =--- T.Galvin wrote... > > <snip> > Bullshit. > When GPL first came out the main complaint was > "Its too hard". I haven't heard that complaint > about it for 2 years now. <snip>

Dave Henrie wrote:

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > Just how far OFF was Zanardi? I think you will find the difference > between bad in F1 and really good is very small. Take a small time Indy > Lights driver who doesn't "get it" and his time in an f1 car will be also > VERY bad. Most times by the end of a weekend, Zanardi was lapping very > close to HHH. But it took all weekend to acheive that and left no room for > improvement. So yeah, they were slower, but NOT a great deal slower... > dave henrie

Of course they were not THAT much off. I was not slagging Zanardi, the point was that even cars as close in performance as F1 and CART need time to get used to, since their feeling is said to be quite different. The point is, no way would a modern F1 car sim simply feel like GPL with more grip. -Gregor

Dave Henrie wrote: > Just how far OFF was Zanardi? I think you will find the difference > between bad in F1 and really good is very small. Take a small time Indy > Lights driver who doesn't "get it" and his time in an f1 car will be also > VERY bad. Most times by the end of a weekend, Zanardi was lapping very > close to HHH. But it took all weekend to acheive that and left no room for > improvement. So yeah, they were slower, but NOT a great deal slower... Dave, For the record, Zanardi's teammate at Williams was Ralf Schumacher, not Heinz-Harald Frentzen (who drove for Jordan and kicked Damon Hill's butt). I remembered Zanardi being throroughly drubbed by his teammate, so I looked up the stats on Forix. Ralf dominated Zanardi pretty handily, out-qualifying him 11 races to 5 and out fast-lapping him 12 races to 4. More importantly, Ralf finished in the points in 11 out of the 16 races, including 3 podiums, whereas Zanardi didn't score a single point! Looking at the fastest laps as to the theory that Zanardi got up to speed by the end of the weekend, you could say that he was very inconsistent at best. Ralf usually got quite the better of him, as you can see below ... Fastest Laps -- Australia - Ralf 1:33.407, Zanardi - 1:37.146 Brazil - Ralf 1:19.395, Zanardi - 1:21.473 Imola - Ralf 1:30.737, Zanardi - 1:30.254 (Zanardi faster) Monaco - Ralf 1:22.837, Zanardi - 1:23.294 Spain - Ralf 1:26.520, Zanardi 1:27.248 Canada - Ralf 1:22.002, Zanardi 1:23.442 France - Ralf 1:20.313, Zanardi 1:21.983 Silverstone - Ralf 1:29.414, Zanardi 1:30.522 Austria - Ralf 1:16.173, Zanardi 1:14.381 (Zanardi faster, Ralf retired early - 8 laps) Germany - Ralf 1:48.083, Zanardi 1:49.835 Hungary - Ralf 1:21.745, Zanardi 1:24.297 (Zanardi retired early - 10 laps) Belgium - Ralf 1:55.964, Zanardi 1:55.786 (Zanardi faster) Italy - Ralf 1:25.579, Zanardi 1:26.047 (Ralf set fastest lap, Zanardi 8th) Europe - Ralf 1:22.237, Zanardi 1:24.300 (Zanardi retired early - 10 laps) Malaysia - Ralf 1:46.418, Zanardi 1:42.056 (Zanardi faster, Ralf retired early - 7 laps) Japan - Ralf 1:42.567, Zanardi didn't complete a lap At one point, Zanardi was so demoralized, he started experimenting with using steel brakes, because he couldn't come to grips with the vastly superior carbon fiber brakes that are on modern F1 cars! To be fair to Zanardi, he had 7 mechanical DNF's to Ralf's 1. It will be interesting to see how Juan Montoya does under very similar circumstances. He will be taking the same seat as Zanardi next year (at Williams and with Ralf Schumacher as his teammate). However, Montoya will have had the advantage of being a former Williams test driver, and importantly, during the grooved tire era. If Montoya is a bust, it will really put a damper on any other CART driver's hopes of making the move to F1. I'm guessing that Montoya will fair much better than poor Alex. Dave Ewing -- ***************************************************** David A. Ewing Xilinx Boulder [email hidden] *****************************************************

Dang! Stats beat recollections everytime! but he did seem to get closer...and with all those dnf's it would be difficult to set fast lap times cuz the car wasn't empty yet...(just saving face there:> ) Knew I shoulda looked up the teammate thing...figured I could sneak by using initials..hehe I do think Juan will have difficulties especially since Button has done so well for Williams. Every mistake Juan makes will be magnified by the Button contingent. My dream team back in the early 90's was for Al Jr and Michael Andretti to team up with an American built Gurney chassis and Ford(american by name only) power. It woulda been something. :) thanks for the corrections. dave(crow feathers)henrie

Dave Henrie wrote in message ... > I do think Juan will have difficulties especially since Button has done >so well for Williams. Every mistake Juan makes will be magnified >by the Button contingent. I thought Button showed his inexperience during the last race. But what a talent! Bendito;

Bendito wrote:

Quoted text (8 lines)

> Dave Henrie wrote in message ... > > > I do think Juan will have difficulties especially since Button has done > >so well for Williams. Every mistake Juan makes will be magnified > >by the Button contingent. > > I thought Button showed his inexperience during the last race. But what a > talent!

Agreed. Button may be something special. At Atlas F1 News today there is a quote from his teammate, Ralf Schumacher, saying that he thinks Williams made a mistake in letting Button go to Benetton for the next couple of years. Dave Ewing -- ***************************************************** David A. Ewing Xilinx Boulder [email hidden] *****************************************************