Re: How many laps does it take in GPL?

In article <[email hidden]>, EldredP <[email hidden]> writes

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>Before you get good? Logically, using the same setup, and given enough >practice, a slower driver should be able to equal a time set by a faster one. >Example: I downloaded a Ferrari setup from Roland Ehnstrom(sp?) that he >used >for a 3:15.67 run at Spa. The setup will obviously do that time, because he's >done it. I can only run 3:26.43 with it. So, I'm almost 11 full seconds off, >using the same exact car. I know practice, practice, practice. But, how >many >laps should I expect to have to run - 10? 50? 1000? I could probably run >3:30's all day without breaking a sweat. My efforts to run faster usally end >up with an off-course excursion, followed by much swearing. It's a good >thing >I don't have any kids...<g> >

<snip> Marc Mercer was saying the other day that it was under 8 minutes at the Ring in less than 40 laps. That is just amazing! Setups are also important. I really am pretty lame at setups and have always found that the right hotshoe setups have improved my PBs pretty much straight. However, not all setups work as well as others. I have downloaded plenty over the last year and there are still some that I have yet to try out as I have hit on ones that worked for me almost immediately. Anyway, that be as it may, I think the possible main reason that you are not doing as well as you could is because you may well not be reading the cues from GPL as well as is possible and because of this you are being more tentative with your driving because you don't know what is going to happen if you drive that little bit harder. There are plenty of cues there to tell you what is happening/is about to happen next and I am discovering more about this all the time. Because of that it gives me so much more confidence when racing hard. I can tell what the car is doing and so am able to react if and when a correction is needed. I'm not sure how to advise on learning this side of driving without saying, just go out and drive the living shit out of the car. Try and understand what just happened and why, when you have a spin etc(what was the game telling you both sound and image wise). Then go back and do it again and again until you know what it all means. There really is no other way to do this I believe. Eventually, if it all goes in, it becomes almost subconscious. You will react to something, by correcting your steering/accelerating/braking, without even being aware that you have done it. So get back to the track and really start trying to focus on everything that you possibly can. Oh yeah, and good luck mate. :) -- Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying No person's opinions can be said to be more correct than another's, because each is the sole judge of his or her own experience.

Just to back up what Andre wrote. Racing is a game of inches. The more you can use the more speed you can carry through the corners and then on to the straights steve

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I seem to be the only one asking for help in GPL. I guess everyone elseis > either already faster, or can figure it out for themselves, or haveaccepted > their slowness. What the <expletive deleted> am I missing? Believe me Eldred, you're not the only one. I think you give voice to what many of us feel sometimes, the desire to improve and the frustration of not achieving results quickly enough. We'd all like to be as fast as Shubi's Top 10, but if we were, GPL wouldn't be the incredible challange it is. Take a break, concentrate on another sim for a week or so, then come back to Spa and work it for a few days and see how you do. I'm addicted, I can't give it up<g>. I know I'll never be as fast as some of you youngsters out there, but it ain't stoppin' me from tryin'! -- don New GPL Programs for the Converted Tracks: http://www.ianparker1.plus.com/gpl/bapom/ You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.

EldredP wrote: > I seem to be the only one asking for help in GPL. I guess everyone else is > either already faster, or can figure it out for themselves, or have accepted > their slowness. Then there are those silent hundreds/thousands of us out there who learn something new every time *you* ask for more help. I think that if you stopped asking, then a hundred would jump up in your place to ask for help, at least this way I know how to sort the wheat from the chaff, I just look for a GPL related post from yourself, and read the replys <g> On behalf of the 'silent' I'd like to thank you, Freeburn.

[email hidden] (Jan Verschueren) wrote: > where he puts forth a methodology for > thinking about and working on lines Line is a major factor (obviously :-). I rediscovered GPLreplayanalyser the other day and comparing my fast laps with *really* fast laps shows the fast guys getting a better line time after time after time. My idea of the proper line is slightly off, consistently costing me vital exit mph. I think to be really fast you need to either work *very* hard identifying exactly the right turning points, or you need to be very gifted! Andrew McP

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> In article <[email hidden]>, "Jan Verschueren" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Don't lose faith in your ability... I am amazed you're going as fast as you > >are while also having all these "bad habits". > > Uh, thanks...<g> > > Eldred

Eldred, Learning the track is probably more important at the ring than anywhere else. Try learning the track a section at a time, and look for landmarks instead of trying to learn the stupid names on those turns. Once you do that (and keep the car on the track for the entire lap), you'll dip down into the 8's. I forget which car you drive, but I have setups for the Brabham and the Eagle which get me down into the 8:10's to 8:20's, and if I practiced more, I'm sure I could go faster. If you want those setups, you're welcomed to them. -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) http://www.paddedwall.org/john Barbarian Diecast Collector (420+ cars and counting) http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast DeMONS Scheduler for N3 and NL http://www.paddedwall.org/demons If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

In article <[email hidden]>, "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Provided you're not blind to your own limitations (and I would guess not), >reading Chapter 1 of "Twist II" (as it is affectionately known) will wipe >that smartass grin straight off your face. ;-) > >Seriously Eldred... read to win. I'm not kidding, knowing the enemy goes a >long way towards defeating him. Check your local library or head over to >Amazon.com. They're $18 each... the best 36 bucks you'll ever spend to >overcome your GPL hurdles, I guarantee you. > >I bought the books to get better at SBK2000, but was dumbfounded to find >there was stuff in there I could apply everywhere. From cycling to work to >playing racing sims, I will never approach or look at a turn the way I did >before again. > >Jan./ in no way related to or endorsed by Keith Code and the California >Superbike School, BTW. >

How do these compare to Going Faster? I have that one. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +50.77 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On 05 Sep 2000 10:48:40 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: >How do these compare to Going Faster? I have that one. That's a great book to start Eldred, I learned lots from that book. Andre >Eldred

On 04 Sep 2000 19:33:43 GMT, EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>In article <[email hidden]>, "Jan Verschueren" ><[email hidden]> writes: > >>Don't lose faith in your ability... I am amazed you're going as fast as you >>are while also having all these "bad habits". > >Uh, thanks...<g> >

Speaking of bad habits, allow me to jump in at this point. I used to have a pretty bad one in GPL, and it was: I always lifted off the gas pedal completely when entering and "cruising through" the corners. The problem with this method is that the differential is then fully locked on the coast side. With a "standard" GPL diff setting (i.e. x/30 or x/45 with 4-5 clutches), this actually prevents the car from turning (because the rear wheels are "locked" together) and you more or less understeer right of the road. What I'm trying to say is: keep your right foot on the accelerator a little when cornering (your *are* left-foot braking now, aren't you ? :-). Try to keep the differential unlocked as much as possible. Good luck, Richard. -- Richard Bellavance Enter-Net Inc. Phone: (450) 449-5261 #16 Systems Administrator/ (514) 990-1683 #16 Analyst-Programmer Fax: (450) 449-5242

I don't know... I haven't read the Going Faster one... Easily just as good as "Drive to Win", though. Jan. =--- EldredP wrote...

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> How do these compare to Going Faster? I have that one. > > Eldred > -- > Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPL hcp. +50.77 > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats

you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (John Simmons) writes:

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>Eldred, Learning the track is probably more important at the ring than >anywhere else. Try learning the track a section at a time, and look for >landmarks instead of trying to learn the stupid names on those turns. >Once you do that (and keep the car on the track for the entire lap), >you'll dip down into the 8's. > >I forget which car you drive, but I have setups for the Brabham and the >Eagle which get me down into the 8:10's to 8:20's, and if I practiced >more, I'm sure I could go faster. If you want those setups, you're >welcomed to them.

I'm under 9 minutes at the Ring only in the Ferrari and Lotus. Both setups are from people who lap in the low 8:20's, I believe. Could you send me the Brabham setup, please? Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +50.77 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Richard Bellavance) writes:

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>Speaking of bad habits, allow me to jump in at this point. I used >to have a pretty bad one in GPL, and it was: I always lifted off the >gas pedal completely when entering and "cruising through" the corners. > >The problem with this method is that the differential is then fully >locked on the coast side. With a "standard" GPL diff setting (i.e. >x/30 or x/45 with 4-5 clutches), this actually prevents the car from >turning (because the rear wheels are "locked" together) and you >more or less understeer right of the road. > >What I'm trying to say is: keep your right foot on the accelerator >a little when cornering (your *are* left-foot braking now, aren't >you ? :-). Try to keep the differential unlocked as much as possible.

Yes, I'm left-foot braking. Yes, I lift totally off the accelerator. If you're suggesting that I don't do that, then I'll need to brake even EARLIER, since the brakes would now have less effect. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +50.77 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On 06 Sep 2000 10:39:29 GMT, EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote: > >Yes, I'm left-foot braking. Yes, I lift totally off the accelerator. If >you're suggesting that I don't do that, then I'll need to brake even EARLIER, >since the brakes would now have less effect. Yes, I am suggesting that you don't lift off completely, but only once you've actually begun turning-in. Of course, in the first part of a heavy braking zone, you should be completely off the accelerator and on the brakes as hard as possible (without locking the tyres), only coming back on the gas a little if necessary to keep the rear wheels behind you. (That's for braking in a straight line, mind you - when I have to slow down in a turn, like approaching Nouveau Monde at Rouen, or for most of the O'ring, I never lift off the accelerator completely). But as you get closer to the speed at which you want to take the turn, you should progressively get back on the accelerator, at more or less the same rate as you are releasing the brake. Once you have started turning, you should never be completely off the gas, but holding it constant until you start accelerating again. The effect of being completely off accelerator vs. being on it just enough to keep the differential unlocked is most visible in harpin turns, like Rouen's or Mexico's. Try going through them (with a 85/30+4 diff) first completely off-throttle, then with a small amount of constant throttle. You should go around the turn much more easily with a small amount of throttle. It's also quite obvious in the Lesmos at Monza (esp. the first one). At least that's how I do it. YMMV... Richard. -- Richard Bellavance Enter-Net Inc. Phone: (450) 449-5261 #16 Systems Administrator/ (514) 990-1683 #16 Analyst-Programmer Fax: (450) 449-5242

On Wed, 06 Sep 2000 13:51:47 GMT, [email hidden] (Richard Bellavance) wrote: <snip>

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>The effect of being completely off accelerator vs. being on it just >enough to keep the differential unlocked is most visible in harpin >turns, like Rouen's or Mexico's. Try going through them (with a >85/30+4 diff) first completely off-throttle, then with a small >amount of constant throttle. You should go around the turn much >more easily with a small amount of throttle. It's also quite obvious >in the Lesmos at Monza (esp. the first one).

A couple of days ago Andrew McP. wrote how he changed his driving style, he stays in 3rd at the Lesmo's. I tried it and it does wonders, I take the Lesmo's just as fast, if not faster, than changing back to 2nd. It also makes the car more stable in the corners. This again gave me the option to experiment with gas and brake more. Like you I allways give a little bit of throttle in the corners. But now I discovered that at the moment when the car should turn, I keep pressing the brakes just a little bit and let go off the throttle gently but completely. That way the car turns in lots better! As soon as the car has turned enough I add a little throttle again to keep the car in balance. All in all I'm only some tenths of a second off the throttle. I costed me a couple of hours to get this technique under control, but in the end I compared some laps with GPLDump, and I gained 4/10th at the Lesmo's, lowering my pb from 1:27.77 to 1:27.38! I drove thousends of laps at Monza, and still learn new techniques every day... Andre >At least that's how I do it. YMMV... > >Richard.

On Wed, 06 Sep 2000 15:02:03 GMT, Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> >It also makes the car more stable in the corners. This again gave me >the option to experiment with gas and brake more. Like you I allways >give a little bit of throttle in the corners. But now I discovered >that at the moment when the car should turn, I keep pressing the >brakes just a little bit and let go off the throttle gently but >completely. That way the car turns in lots better! As soon as the car >has turned enough I add a little throttle again to keep the car in >balance. All in all I'm only some tenths of a second off the throttle. >I costed me a couple of hours to get this technique under control, but >in the end I compared some laps with GPLDump, and I gained 4/10th at >the Lesmo's, lowering my pb from 1:27.77 to 1:27.38! >

Interesting, Andre. I'll have to try that... OTOH, I might already be doing it "subconsciously". I can't account for every movement of my feet during a danc^H^H^H^Hrace :-) Richard. -- Richard Bellavance Enter-Net Inc. Phone: (450) 449-5261 #16 Systems Administrator/ (514) 990-1683 #16 Analyst-Programmer Fax: (450) 449-5242

On 04 Sep 2000 02:54:03 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: >When I put a wheel off the track, I lose control. This is probably why I >can't get closer to the edges of the track. There's something wrong here. I spend a lot of time with half the car on the grass. Especially at the ring, I take at least 10% of the turns with one wheel off track. If done properly, it helps turn the car. Don McCorkle

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I don't know... I haven't read the Going Faster one... > > Easily just as good as "Drive to Win", though. > > Jan. Going Faster is the manual of the Skip Barber Racing School. As such it is basically a textbook, technical and detailed. I consider it a must read. Drive to Win is more along the lines of fatherly advice. A very different work, but complimentory with Going Faster. Add Keith Code's books for the "Zen" of driving and you have the ideal and complete "course" for the driver. Anything less would be incomplete. Get Going Faster and get going, faster. Trust me on this one.

"Richard Bellavance" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Wed, 06 Sep 2000 15:02:03 GMT, Andre Warringa <[email hidden]>wrote:

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> > > >It also makes the car more stable in the corners. This again gave me > >the option to experiment with gas and brake more. Like you I allways > >give a little bit of throttle in the corners. But now I discovered > >that at the moment when the car should turn, I keep pressing the > >brakes just a little bit and let go off the throttle gently but > >completely. That way the car turns in lots better! As soon as the car > >has turned enough I add a little throttle again to keep the car in > >balance. All in all I'm only some tenths of a second off the throttle. > >I costed me a couple of hours to get this technique under control, but > >in the end I compared some laps with GPLDump, and I gained 4/10th at > >the Lesmo's, lowering my pb from 1:27.77 to 1:27.38! > > > > Interesting, Andre. I'll have to try that... OTOH, I might > already be doing it "subconsciously". I can't account for every > movement of my feet during a danc^H^H^H^Hrace :-) > > Richard.

JYS is very publicly against trail braking, and yet has produced what are perhaps the smoothest traces on friction circle telemetry ever recorded by any driver, which is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE without trail braking. Just goes to show you that even the best and most technically devoted to the art of driving don't always know what their own feet are actually doing.

On Fri, 08 Sep 2000 15:05:57 GMT, "Kevin Gavitt" <[email hidden]> wrote: >JYS is very publicly against trail braking, and yet has produced what are >perhaps the smoothest traces on friction circle telemetry ever recorded by >any driver, which is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE without trail braking. > >Just goes to show you that even the best and most technically devoted to the >art of driving don't always know what their own feet are actually doing. Ok, this is a stupid question which will probably get all of the RAS citizens LOL-ing (how's that for a verb), but who is JYS? Andre

Well, in that case they can have a laugh at my expense too, because I haven't a clue. Jan./ Jim Yates Sr ?? -surely not? =--- Andre Warringa wrote...

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> <snip> > Ok, this is a stupid question which will probably get all > of the RAS citizens LOL-ing (how's that for a verb), but > who is JYS? > > Andre >

Jan Verschueren wrote: > > Well, in that case they can have a laugh at my expense too, because I > haven't a clue. > > Jan./ Jim Yates Sr ?? -surely not? I'll give you a hint. Mr. Stewart. -- Chuck Kandler Windows--computing for the Unwashed Masses Registered Linux User #180746 http://counter.li.org

Jan Verschueren <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Well, in that case they can have a laugh at my expense too, because I > haven't a clue. > > Jan./ Jim Yates Sr ?? -surely not? > =--- > Andre Warringa wrote... > > <snip> > > Ok, this is a stupid question which will probably get all > > of the RAS citizens LOL-ing (how's that for a verb), but > > who is JYS? > > > > Andre > >

Jackie's given name, John Young Stewart. -- don New Programmes for the Converted GPL Tracks http://www.ianparker1.plus.com/gpl/bapom/

On Fri, 8 Sep 2000 10:45:53 -0700, "don hodgdon" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> >Jan Verschueren <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> Well, in that case they can have a laugh at my expense too, because I >> haven't a clue. >> >> Jan./ Jim Yates Sr ?? -surely not? >> =--- >> Andre Warringa wrote... >> > <snip> >> > Ok, this is a stupid question which will probably get all >> > of the RAS citizens LOL-ing (how's that for a verb), but >> > who is JYS? >> > >> > Andre >> > > >Jackie's given name, John Young Stewart.

Damn... I thought of him, but didn't know he had a middle name... Andre

"Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Fri, 8 Sep 2000 10:45:53 -0700, "don hodgdon" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >Jan Verschueren <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > >> Well, in that case they can have a laugh at my expense too, because I > >> haven't a clue. > >> > >> Jan./ Jim Yates Sr ?? -surely not? > >> =--- > >> Andre Warringa wrote... > >> > <snip> > >> > Ok, this is a stupid question which will probably get all > >> > of the RAS citizens LOL-ing (how's that for a verb), but > >> > who is JYS? > >> > > >> > Andre > >> > > > > >Jackie's given name, John Young Stewart. > > Damn... I thought of him, but didn't know he had a middle name... > > Andre

In Drive to Win Carroll Smith notes JYS's claim to have learned how to properly take his foot off the brake pedal as the last and hardest thing he ever learned about driving would appear to be refering to trail braking. It certainly would, and again, as technically perceptive a driver as Stewart dosn't always know just what it is he is actually doing. The telemetry dosn't lie.

In article <za7u5.13706$[email hidden]>, "Kevin Gavitt" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>basically a textbook, technical and detailed. I consider it a must read. > >Drive to Win is more along the lines of fatherly advice. A very different >work, but complimentory with Going Faster. > >Add Keith Code's books for the "Zen" of driving and you have the ideal and >complete "course" for the driver. Anything less would be incomplete. > > Get Going Faster and get going, faster. Trust me on this one.

I already have Going Faster(didn't help<g>). The Keith Code books should be sitting on my porch from Barnes & Noble right about now... :) Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +50.77 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On 08 Sep 2000 23:37:05 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote:

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>In article <za7u5.13706$[email hidden]>, "Kevin Gavitt" ><[email hidden]> writes: > >>basically a textbook, technical and detailed. I consider it a must read. >> >>Drive to Win is more along the lines of fatherly advice. A very different >>work, but complimentory with Going Faster. >> >>Add Keith Code's books for the "Zen" of driving and you have the ideal and >>complete "course" for the driver. Anything less would be incomplete. >> >> Get Going Faster and get going, faster. Trust me on this one. > >I already have Going Faster(didn't help<g>). The Keith Code books should be >sitting on my porch from Barnes & Noble right about now... :)

Eldred, if reading Going Faster didn't help, maybe you should consider another hobby... <G> Andre >Eldred

In article <[email hidden]>, Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> writes: >>I already have Going Faster(didn't help<g>). The Keith Code books should be >>sitting on my porch from Barnes & Noble right about now... :) > >Eldred, if reading Going Faster didn't help, maybe you should consider >another hobby... <G> > Actually, after reading Going Faster, I know WHY the car reacts as it does(usually). I just can't *control* it... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +50.77 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Woodie 83) writes:

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>On 04 Sep 2000 02:54:03 GMT, >[email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: > >>When I put a wheel off the track, I lose control. This is probably why I >>can't get closer to the edges of the track. > >There's something wrong here. I spend a lot of time with half the car on the >grass. Especially at the ring, I take at least 10% of the turns with one >wheel >off track. If done properly, it helps turn the car.

Well, there you go. I must not be doing it properly<g>. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +50.77 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Heh... that reminds me of something one of our customers said a while back. I was demonstrating an oscilloscope in their repair facilities and commented on the large stack of equipment piled into one of the corners. "Oh that, that's the B-stock", they said, "packaging was damaged in transport. We give it a quick look before putting it in the discount circuit. If they are too badly damaged or really broken we use them for spares." "I thought you guys spent a lot of time designing packaging in such a way that dropping the package doesn't cause any damage.", I said. "True", replied the head technician, "But you have to drop them in a standardised way." Jan. ;-) =--- EldredP wrote...

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> <snip> > Well, there you go. I must not be doing it properly<g>. > > Eldred > -- > Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPL hcp. +50.77 > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, > then beats you with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Heh... that reminds me of something one of our customers said a whileback. > > I was demonstrating an oscilloscope in their repair facilities andcommented

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> on the large stack of equipment piled into one of the corners. > > "Oh that, that's the B-stock", they said, "packaging was damaged in > transport. We give it a quick look before putting it in the discount > circuit. If they are too badly damaged or really broken we use them for > spares." > > "I thought you guys spent a lot of time designing packaging in such a way > that dropping the package doesn't cause any damage.", I said. > > "True", replied the head technician, "But you have to drop them in a > standardised way." > > Jan. ;-)

Should I go off on my rant now about the use of standardized tests in education? :)

Feel free. Jan. =--- Kevin Gavitt wrote... > <snip> > Should I go off on my rant now about the use of standardized tests in > education? :)