My problem with Sears Group and all involved.

There are about a 1000 posts back and forth, for and against the two protagonists. I say this is a COLLOSAL waste of time. Everyone involved should shuddup and get back to work. Sears99 is one of the best creations ever for the Nx papy line of sims. Just think what they could do with Road America, Mid Ohio, or Laguna Seca. While I appreciate the two sides might have different philosophies regarding their work, I do NOT. I only wish to see more of the same. Great work. Now shake hands, kiss and make up and pump out some more. -- dave henrie Free the ICR2 source code!

On Sat, 09 Sep 2000 17:20:05 GMT, "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> There are about a 1000 posts back and forth, for and against the >two protagonists. I say this is a COLLOSAL waste of time. Everyone >involved should shuddup and get back to work. Sears99 is one of the best >creations ever for the Nx papy line of sims. Just think what they could do >with Road America, Mid Ohio, or Laguna Seca. > While I appreciate the two sides might have different philosophies >regarding their work, I do NOT. I only wish to see more of the same. Great >work. >Now shake hands, kiss and make up and pump out some more.

Great post Dave. Could you also end those other law and order posts this way please? :) Andre

Dave... I couldn't agree with you more. All of us at SearsGroup have much better uses of our time than they way I have spent it for the last few days. That is why I was asked to do this......on behalf of everyone working there. So, it minimized our "wasting" of time. Sears99....the version that you all have available through Tim's website........is good, but its not anywhere near the track that became the final production....the simulation that the Winston Cup drivers drove during their race at Sears in June. That track....would have been released to this sim racing community..........with Sears Point's permission. Tim usurped that right from Sears by posting the track he had in his files......for "God knows" what personal reason(s)......[is it because he doesn't like me and thinks this is going to hurt me in some way?].....certainly this is not for the benefit of the sim community....because Tim knew darn well that the management of Sears would release the track after the Bulldozer work was completed anyway. We'd discussed this countless times in meetings that Tim attended at Sears Point (in the office of Bob Davis..the track architect). The way to see "highly detailed versions of Road America, Mid Ohio or Laguna"....is to get the cooperation of the race track owners. You have to spend days on the track itself....taking measurements and pouring over topography maps to do that. Don't you wonder why the Papy tracks (this shows up more in the road courses than the ovals, however), or NASCAR Heat road tracks for that matter....are not very accurate? It's because they can't afford to go take the time and the expense to do this. Not for 30 or 40 race tracks they need to pack into their "game." They just look at some track maps....maybe an in-car video (sometimes)....and wing it! Remember, these are "games" to those software developers.......we are the ones who call them "simulations." Nor, by the way....do they have the expertise to do this detailed modeling. These people are "computer guys"......not terra-firma architects and engineers! We spent an entire afternoon at Sears Point....with the track's pace car (race car fitted) and real-world drivers to run the track....jumping out of the race car and running the sim car.......while we input their information to adjust the track geometry to make it as perfect as the "programming" would allow! This is why Sears99 is as good as you recognize and feel. Heck, Tim and I even spent an entire afternoon at Sears after that test racing day (with his little boy).....with string and sticks.....measuring the camber across the track at key points (about 60 of them) because we didn't trust the data we got from the topography maps...and the "scope" didn't give us as accurate a measurement as the string and sticks did! The track was shutdown while we did this! Now.....do you think we are going to get this kind of cooperation out of the real-world race tracks if we turn around and release the tracks publicly without their permission. Come on Dave......! And.....is this kind of thing going to encourage....or discourage.......talented guys like David Noonan to keep building real-world tracks anymore? You all are down on people who "steal software" through downloading "warez" titles. How is this different than what Tim is doing? I don't get it.....maybe I'm missing some important part of your reasoning ("your" = the sim communities collective reasoning). Dave, I respect you and I think you are one of the outstanding members of this sim racing community. Your posts...and the help and knowledge you provide all of us.....its always on target and valuable. But, in all respect to you, Dave....I've got to "take issue" with your thinking on this one. This community is never going to get the kind of software we want and need.....the sophisticated and detailed kind of track simulations we want and need.....out of the "gaming industry." That's NOT the business they are in! How many times do we have to have this proven to us? How many more "NASCAR Heats, Sports Car GTs, GP-3s" disappointments do we have to go through to get this through our heads? How many more "NASCAR 4s" that never get released will we need? How many more "Jeff Downey" articles do we need to see "predicting this" to start believing them? The last "racing title" released that met our expectations as a "racing simulation"......was also the first "racing title" released that met our expectations as a "racing simulation." Its "Grand Prix Legends" and it was released over two years ago! There won't be another one (out of the gaming industry) because there is no money in it! And there won't ever be any money in it unless we can get this communities' members up to about 4 million .....we have about six months to do that .....by the way. Tim gives you one "out of date N3" race track......not even "current" modeling. What this communities gives up (by condoning this act on Tim's part).......and I don't think there is any dispute over whether SPR has the rights to their track's likeness and logo...is there?...... is being set back in getting the cooperation of the real-world race track owner's community, and "yes"...they are a "community".......to help us and provide us the access and information we need to build accurate, detailed tracks. Do you know how long it took us to convince Sears management that the "hardcore" sim racing community was only a few thousand people? And, convince them there was no commercial opportunity in a highly detailed race track simulation that could only run on the top 1% of today's desktop computers? Wow...I just don't see how this is a very good "trade." Is it? The PC gaming industry is dying. The handwriting is on the wall. Have you seen the quality of a PS-2? I have....at E-3 this year. And its darn good. But, its not good enough for a racing simulation that we want and need....not even close! Is it any wonder why Hasbro rushes "Heat" out the door so they can finish their work on the PS-2 version of it? Or, Ratbag does the same with DTR-Sprint Car......for the same reason! And....of all of the PC gaming industries' genre's.....which one has always been the weakest performer, sales-wise? So which one will be the first to disappear completely from the scene? If we don't turn to the real-world track owners.....with something "valuable"......(and it can't be money unless we all want to donate about $20,000 each!).....to exchange for their cooperation and assistance in getting their tracks simulated in detail....then we are all going to be going "put-put-put" on a Px box in two years. Not me....sorry....I want to sim race....not play games on my TV. Maybe "Bulldozer" isn't going to turn out to be "the something valuable" that does the trick. But....it's the best candidate I've seen so far. Anybody else got a good idea that's got a better chance right now? And, do you have the personal financial resources to make it happen? If you do.....I want to submit my application to go work for you.....and I've got about 30 other guys who will do the same. Dave....I am passionate about this sim racing stuff. I love racing.....but I couldn't do it for as long in my life as I wanted to (for lots of reason...health and age being a small part too). Simulated racing......the good stuff.....will allow me to be banging fenders with good driver's like you.....until I can't see my monitor screen anymore! I could do it in a wheelchair if I had to! But I've had enough business experience in my life to know that "wishing something".....and finding a "financially viable way to make something happen".....are two very different things. I apologize to you for maybe letting this "passion" look like I'm being disrespectful of you...I promise I'm not. Even though, my "temperament" in what I've written above might appear that way. I hope you will forgive this passion ......for one time? Regards, Tom "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9juu5.64422$[email hidden]... > There are about a 1000 posts back and forth, for and against the > two protagonists. I say this is a COLLOSAL waste of time. Everyone > involved should shuddup and get back to work. Sears99 is one of the best > creations ever for the Nx papy line of sims. Just think what they coulddo > with Road America, Mid Ohio, or Laguna Seca. > While I appreciate the two sides might have different philosophies > regarding their work, I do NOT. I only wish to see more of the same.Great

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> work. > Now shake hands, kiss and make up and pump out some more. > -- > dave henrie > Free the ICR2 source code! > >

I'm alittle behind the times here, please forgive me. But may I request the URL's of all these websites? Searsgroup, Tom, Dave N, Dave H and Tim please. Also..Are you the same Tom that runs Tom's Hardware page? :-) Thanks "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9uxu5.181518$[email hidden]... > Dave... > > I couldn't agree with you more. All of us at SearsGroup have much better > uses of our time than they way I have spent it for the last few days.That > is why I was asked to do this......on behalf of everyone working there.So, > it minimized our "wasting" of time. > > Sears99....the version that you all have available through Tim's > website........is good, but its not anywhere near the track that becamethe > final production....the simulation that the Winston Cup drivers droveduring > their race at Sears in June. That track....would have been released tothis > sim racing community..........with Sears Point's permission. Tim usurped > that right from Sears by posting the track he had in his files......for"God > knows" what personal reason(s)......[is it because he doesn't like me and > thinks this is going to hurt me in some way?].....certainly this is notfor > the benefit of the sim community....because Tim knew darn well that the > management of Sears would release the track after the Bulldozer work was > completed anyway. We'd discussed this countless times in meetings thatTim > attended at Sears Point (in the office of Bob Davis..the track architect). > > The way to see "highly detailed versions of Road America, Mid Ohio or > Laguna"....is to get the cooperation of the race track owners. You haveto > spend days on the track itself....taking measurements and pouring over > topography maps to do that. Don't you wonder why the Papy tracks (this > shows up more in the road courses than the ovals, however), or NASCAR Heat > road tracks for that matter....are not very accurate? It's because they > can't afford to go take the time and the expense to do this. Not for 30or > 40 race tracks they need to pack into their "game." They just look atsome > track maps....maybe an in-car video (sometimes)....and wing it! Remember, > these are "games" to those software developers.......we are the ones who > call them "simulations." > > Nor, by the way....do they have the expertise to do this detailedmodeling. > These people are "computer guys"......not terra-firma architects and > engineers! We spent an entire afternoon at Sears Point....with thetrack's > pace car (race car fitted) and real-world drivers to run the > track....jumping out of the race car and running the sim car.......whilewe > input their information to adjust the track geometry to make it as perfect > as the "programming" would allow! This is why Sears99 is as good as you > recognize and feel. Heck, Tim and I even spent an entire afternoon atSears > after that test racing day (with his little boy).....with string and > sticks.....measuring the camber across the track at key points (about 60of > them) because we didn't trust the data we got from the topographymaps...and > the "scope" didn't give us as accurate a measurement as the string and > sticks did! The track was shutdown while we did this! > > Now.....do you think we are going to get this kind of cooperation out ofthe > real-world race tracks if we turn around and release the tracks publicly > without their permission. Come on Dave......! And.....is this kind of > thing going to encourage....or discourage.......talented guys like David > Noonan to keep building real-world tracks anymore? > > You all are down on people who "steal software" through downloading"warez" > titles. How is this different than what Tim is doing? I don't get > it.....maybe I'm missing some important part of your reasoning ("your" =the > sim communities collective reasoning). > > Dave, I respect you and I think you are one of the outstanding members of > this sim racing community. Your posts...and the help and knowledge you > provide all of us.....its always on target and valuable. But, in all > respect to you, Dave....I've got to "take issue" with your thinking onthis > one. > > This community is never going to get the kind of software we want and > need.....the sophisticated and detailed kind of track simulations we want > and need.....out of the "gaming industry." That's NOT the business theyare > in! How many times do we have to have this proven to us? How many more > "NASCAR Heats, Sports Car GTs, GP-3s" disappointments do we have to go > through to get this through our heads? How many more "NASCAR 4s" thatnever > get released will we need? How many more "Jeff Downey" articles do weneed > to see "predicting this" to start believing them? The last "racing title" > released that met our expectations as a "racing simulation"......was also > the first "racing title" released that met our expectations as a "racing > simulation." Its "Grand Prix Legends" and it was released over two years > ago! There won't be another one (out of the gaming industry) becausethere

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> is no money in it! And there won't ever be any money in it unless we can > get this communities' members up to about 4 million .....we have about six > months to do that .....by the way. > > Tim gives you one "out of date N3" race track......not even "current" > modeling. What this communities gives up (by condoning this act on Tim's > part).......and I don't think there is any dispute over whether SPR has

the

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> rights to their track's likeness and logo...is there?...... is being set > back in getting the cooperation of the real-world race track owner's > community, and "yes"...they are a "community".......to help us and provide > us the access and information we need to build accurate, detailed tracks. > Do you know how long it took us to convince Sears management that the > "hardcore" sim racing community was only a few thousand people? And, > convince them there was no commercial opportunity in a highly detailed

race > track simulation that could only run on the top 1% of today's desktop > computers? > > Wow...I just don't see how this is a very good "trade." Is it? > > The PC gaming industry is dying. The handwriting is on the wall. Haveyou > seen the quality of a PS-2? I have....at E-3 this year. And its darngood. > But, its not good enough for a racing simulation that we want and > need....not even close! Is it any wonder why Hasbro rushes "Heat" out the > door so they can finish their work on the PS-2 version of it? Or, Ratbag > does the same with DTR-Sprint Car......for the same reason! And....of all > of the PC gaming industries' genre's.....which one has always been the > weakest performer, sales-wise? So which one will be the first todisappear

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> completely from the scene? > > If we don't turn to the real-world track owners.....with something > "valuable"......(and it can't be money unless we all want to donate about > $20,000 each!).....to exchange for their cooperation and assistance in > getting their tracks simulated in detail....then we are all going to be > going "put-put-put" on a Px box in two years. Not me....sorry....I want

to > sim race....not play games on my TV. > > Maybe "Bulldozer" isn't going to turn out to be "the something valuable" > that does the trick. But....it's the best candidate I've seen so far. > > Anybody else got a good idea that's got a better chance right now? And,do > you have the personal financial resources to make it happen? If you > do.....I want to submit my application to go work for you.....and I've got > about 30 other guys who will do the same. > > Dave....I am passionate about this sim racing stuff. I loveracing.....but > I couldn't do it for as long in my life as I wanted to (for lots of > reason...health and age being a small part too). Simulatedracing......the > good stuff.....will allow me to be banging fenders with good driver's like > you.....until I can't see my monitor screen anymore! I could do it in a > wheelchair if I had to! But I've had enough business experience in mylife > to know that "wishing something".....and finding a "financially viable way > to make something happen".....are two very different things. > > I apologize to you for maybe letting this "passion" look like I'm being > disrespectful of you...I promise I'm not. Even though, my "temperament"in > what I've written above might appear that way. I hope you will forgivethis

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> passion ......for one time? > > Regards, > > Tom > > > > > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:9juu5.64422$[email hidden]... > > There are about a 1000 posts back and forth, for and against the > > two protagonists. I say this is a COLLOSAL waste of time. Everyone > > involved should shuddup and get back to work. Sears99 is one of the

best

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> > creations ever for the Nx papy line of sims. Just think what they could > do > > with Road America, Mid Ohio, or Laguna Seca. > > While I appreciate the two sides might have different philosophies > > regarding their work, I do NOT. I only wish to see more of the same. > Great > > work. > > Now shake hands, kiss and make up and pump out some more. > > -- > > dave henrie > > Free the ICR2 source code! > > > > > >

Dave Morris wrote: > > I'm alittle behind the times here, please forgive me. > But may I request the URL's of all these websites? > Searsgroup, Tom, Dave N, Dave H and Tim please. Searsgroup and Tom, no idea to be hones Dave H, not sure, but he's a regular in this forum, nice chap who either can't drive worth a damn or drives shitty cars, you pick, but his advice offered in this forum is better than his race results, although that doesn't say a lot.....:-) Tim, might have his own site, but at present he hangs his hat at "The Pits", same with David Noonan. although Dave also has his own site at http://www.sim-garage.co.uk Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com http://www.teammirage.com "Mountain climbing, auto racing and bullfighting are the only true sports...all others are games." --Ernest Hemingway--

In article <[email hidden]>, Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> writes: >Great post Dave. Could you also end those other law and order posts >this way please? :) > >Andre Wouldn't work. The people involved in the other posts(including myself, I'm afraid) aren't talented enough to make tracks/add-ons/etc...<g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +50.77 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <9juu5.64422$[email hidden]>, "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> writes: > There are about a 1000 posts back and forth, for and against the >two protagonists. I say this is a COLLOSAL waste of time. Everyone >involved should shuddup and get back to work. Sears99 is one of the best >creations ever for the Nx papy line of sims. Just think what they could do >with Road America, Mid Ohio, or Laguna Seca. Laguna Seca in a STOCKER?!? Oy...<g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +50.77 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > Laguna Seca in a STOCKER?!? Oy...<g> > > Eldred > -- Hey the N3 road racers have been running at seca all year. Here's a messed up site...with a TPTCC shot at the top of the corkscrew. (i'll have to yell at Homestead for screwing up my sites...) http://www.homestead.com/simracers/simracing.html I just want a Seca that is of the quality of N99(or the even better one Tom P is hinting at.) and MID OHIO!!! dave henrie

"Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Dave Morris wrote: > > > > I'm alittle behind the times here, please forgive me. > > But may I request the URL's of all these websites? > > Searsgroup, Tom, Dave N, Dave H and Tim please. > > Searsgroup and Tom, no idea to be hones > > Dave H, not sure, but he's a regular in this forum, nice chap who either > can't drive worth a damn or drives shitty cars, you pick, but his advice > offered in this forum is better than his race results, although that > doesn't say a lot.....:-)

naw naw I drive GREAT cars(Check out the 2001 Dodge Stratus Dan Painted up for us in the touring cars)...imagine how bad I'd be if I drove one of those little furen jobs....Sure it's American iron but I cain't spell al Loo MIN ee uhm like the Brits say it... dave henrie

Dave, Well with the new Autocross track for SCGT I have created a killer A mod Solo ll car for this new track. Its a wild and wolley ride running under a minute on this course. For a bit of perpsective the BMW M3 running GT3 runs 1:14s Dave Robinson So many cones so little time > naw naw I drive GREAT cars(Check out the 2001 Dodge Stratus DanPainted

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> up for us in the touring cars)...imagine how bad I'd be if I drove one > of those little furen jobs....Sure it's American iron but I cain't spell > al Loo MIN ee uhm like the Brits say it... > dave henrie > > >

On 10 Sep 2000 03:53:03 GMT, "David" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Well with the new Autocross track for SCGT Huh? Where might I find this? I am most curious. ~daxe

Dave Henrie wrote:

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> > "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Dave Morris wrote: > > > > > > I'm alittle behind the times here, please forgive me. > > > But may I request the URL's of all these websites? > > > Searsgroup, Tom, Dave N, Dave H and Tim please. > > > > Searsgroup and Tom, no idea to be hones > > > > Dave H, not sure, but he's a regular in this forum, nice chap who either > > can't drive worth a damn or drives shitty cars, you pick, but his advice > > offered in this forum is better than his race results, although that > > doesn't say a lot.....:-) > naw naw I drive GREAT cars(Check out the 2001 Dodge Stratus Dan Painted > up for us in the touring cars)...imagine how bad I'd be if I drove one > of those little furen jobs....Sure it's American iron but I cain't spell > al Loo MIN ee uhm like the Brits say it... > dave henrie

I don't care what anyone says Dave, you're a great guy.... Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com http://www.teammirage.com "Mountain climbing, auto racing and bullfighting are the only true sports...all others are games." --Ernest Hemingway--

You don't seem to have much respect for what Papyrus do. They certainly don't think of GPL as a 'game'. In the manual introduction, written by David Kaemer he consistently uses the word 'simulator'. Also I can show you photos of Ubisoft driving round every F1 circuit getting GPS readings to model the tracks for F1 Racing Championship. I think the people writing racing sims/games take their work more seriously than you give them credit for. "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9uxu5.181518$[email hidden]... > Dave... > > I couldn't agree with you more. All of us at SearsGroup have much better<snip> > what I've written above might appear that way. I hope you will forgivethis > passion ......for one time? > > Regards, > > Tom

Daxe you will find it at http://www.zianet.com/rockaria/SCGT/ Its basically a parking lot with the course and well they are working on more courses also. Dave daxe <[email hidden]> wrote in article <[email hidden]>...

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> On 10 Sep 2000 03:53:03 GMT, "David" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Well with the new Autocross track for SCGT > > Huh? > > Where might I find this? I am most curious. > > ~daxe >

"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:tHCu5.65288$[email hidden]...

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> > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > Laguna Seca in a STOCKER?!? Oy...<g> > > > > Eldred > > -- > Hey the N3 road racers have been running at seca all year. Here's a > messed up site...with a TPTCC shot at the top of the corkscrew. (i'll

have

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> to yell at Homestead for screwing up my sites...) > http://www.homestead.com/simracers/simracing.html > > I just want a Seca that is of the quality of N99(or the even better one > Tom P is hinting at.) and MID OHIO!!! > dave henrie > >

I'd love to see what they could do with Riverside...maybe they could move the flagstand to the correct side of the circuit! -- don New GPL Programs for the Converted Tracks: http://www.ianparker1.plus.com/gpl/bapom/ You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.

LOL, well actually Don that was relative to the year the race ran. in 1970 they actually had the flagstand where it is in Legends. Wierd huh? On Sun, 10 Sep 2000 08:34:16 -0700, "don hodgdon" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> >"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:tHCu5.65288$[email hidden]... >> >> "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> > Laguna Seca in a STOCKER?!? Oy...<g> >> > >> > Eldred >> > -- >> Hey the N3 road racers have been running at seca all year. Here's a >> messed up site...with a TPTCC shot at the top of the corkscrew. (i'll >have >> to yell at Homestead for screwing up my sites...) >> http://www.homestead.com/simracers/simracing.html >> >> I just want a Seca that is of the quality of N99(or the even better one >> Tom P is hinting at.) and MID OHIO!!! >> dave henrie >> >> > >I'd love to see what they could do with Riverside...maybe they could move >the flagstand to the correct side of the circuit! > >-- >don > >New GPL Programs for the Converted Tracks: >http://www.ianparker1.plus.com/gpl/bapom/ > >You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be >misquoted, then used against you. > > > > >

"Tim McArthur" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:39bbac0f.46541177@news... > LOL, well actually Don that was relative to the year the race ran. in > 1970 they actually had the flagstand where it is in Legends. Wierd > huh? > Tim, I have been in the archives of Petersen Publishing (Motor Trend Magazine, sponsors of the Early NASCAR races at RIR) and have seen photographs of Foyt passing under the checker for the January 18, 1970 race. The flagstand was drivers right. I'll try and get permission from the archive to post a copy on rec.binaries.simulators. There was a second NASCAR race at RIR that year on June 14th where the starters stand *may* have been moved, I have not seen photographs of this event, but I really doubt that this would have happened. The only print I have here at home, is of the start of what looks to be the '63 or '64 Motor Trend 500 (someone with a greater knowledge of American Iron would know, but I believe it's the '63 race, the first NASCAR Grand National event held at RIR) and again, the flagstand is drivers right. When RIR was built in 1957, the pits and flagstand were drivers left, but that configuration was quickly changed to accomodate a new grandstand and pressbox. It is very difficult to find information about the history of Riverside, but Dick Wallen's new book, due in the fall of this year, should change that. -- don New GPL Programs for the Converted Tracks: http://www.ianparker1.plus.com/gpl/bapom/ You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.

Your right, the flagstand is supose to be on the drivers right. Is it not? tells you how long it has been since I have platyed NL eh? On Sun, 10 Sep 2000 11:15:17 -0700, "don hodgdon" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> >"Tim McArthur" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:39bbac0f.46541177@news... >> LOL, well actually Don that was relative to the year the race ran. in >> 1970 they actually had the flagstand where it is in Legends. Wierd >> huh? >> > >Tim, I have been in the archives of Petersen Publishing (Motor Trend >Magazine, sponsors of the Early NASCAR races at RIR) and have seen >photographs of Foyt passing under the checker for the January 18, 1970 race. >The flagstand was drivers right. I'll try and get permission from the >archive to post a copy on rec.binaries.simulators. There was a second NASCAR >race at RIR that year on June 14th where the starters stand *may* have been >moved, I have not seen photographs of this event, but I really doubt that >this would have happened. > >The only print I have here at home, is of the start of what looks to be the >'63 or '64 Motor Trend 500 (someone with a greater knowledge of American >Iron would know, but I believe it's the '63 race, the first NASCAR Grand >National event held at RIR) and again, the flagstand is drivers right. When >RIR was built in 1957, the pits and flagstand were drivers left, but that >configuration was quickly changed to accomodate a new grandstand and >pressbox. > >It is very difficult to find information about the history of Riverside, but >Dick Wallen's new book, due in the fall of this year, should change that. > >-- >don > >New GPL Programs for the Converted Tracks: >http://www.ianparker1.plus.com/gpl/bapom/ > >You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be >misquoted, then used against you. > > > >