Re: At what point is is called theft?

On Thu, 14 Sep 2000 17:57:36 GMT, [email hidden] (Tim McArthur) enlightened us all with these kind words of wisdom: >Is it OK for me, as one of many people that assisted in the >development of a third party addon, to sell it without permission from >the others? There are two issues here. The moral, and the legal. Legalities would probably dictate that if an application has been created, and has been copyrighted, then you have no right to sell it, or call it your own, without the express permission from the person who owns the copyright. Without copyright on the application, ANYBODY can take an application, put their name to it and call it their own. Without it being copyrighted, there's little way to prove that you created it and not them. Morally, it shouldn't matter who owns the copyright. If they helped work, by putting their time and effort into it, then they deserve a share of whatever profits are made from it - even if they're unaware that any are being made. >Is this an accepted way of working in the sim-community? I would certainly hope not. People who spend time bringing us editors, updates, add-ons, tracks and so on, deserve high praise and gratitude for adding some depth to our sims. They do not deserve to have their efforts stolen and used by others who will call it their own. Especially not when it comes to money. I must point out that, without any legal expertise, I could be wrong about the legal side of this, but I doubt the law would be any different, especially not in this country. Best regards, Moon-Watcher

This is a popular mis-conception about copywright. Intelectual property (which includes S/ware) does not have to be "copyrighted". The copyright automatically applies from the time of the production of the work. It lasts for the lifetime of the author plus 50 years from the time of their death (if it was produced by a group the copyright applies for 50 years after the death of the last surviving owner of the copyright). This is pretty standard internationally. In some parts of the world there may be variations on the lengths of time the copyright applies but the general principles are much the same everywhere. Bottom line is you don't have to apply for a copyright. At no time can anybody take your intelectual property and claim it as their own as you own the copyright from the time you produce the work. Proving who owns the copyright is where it becomes a bit of a nightmare at times and why Copyright is such a toothless law. Regards Marc Davey "Moon-Watcher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Thu, 14 Sep 2000 17:57:36 GMT, [email hidden] (Tim McArthur)enlightened us all with these kind words of wisdom: > > >Is it OK for me, as one of many people that assisted in the > >development of a third party addon, to sell it without permission from > >the others? > > There are two issues here. The moral, and the legal. Legalities wouldprobably dictate that if an application has been created, and has been > copyrighted, then you have no right to sell it, or call it your own,without the express permission from the person who owns the copyright. Without > copyright on the application, ANYBODY can take an application, put theirname to it and call it their own. Without it being copyrighted, there's > little way to prove that you created it and not them. > > Morally, it shouldn't matter who owns the copyright. If they helped work,by putting their time and effort into it, then they deserve a share of > whatever profits are made from it - even if they're unaware that any arebeing made. > > >Is this an accepted way of working in the sim-community? > > I would certainly hope not. People who spend time bringing us editors,updates, add-ons, tracks and so on, deserve high praise and gratitude for > adding some depth to our sims. They do not deserve to have their effortsstolen and used by others who will call it their own. Especially not when it > comes to money. > > I must point out that, without any legal expertise, I could be wrong aboutthe legal side of this, but I doubt the law would be any different, > especially not in this country. > > Best regards, > > Moon-Watcher

On Fri, 15 Sep 2000 20:24:05 +1000, "Incubus" <[email hidden]> enlightened us all with these kind words of wisdom:

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>That's what I was thinking too Marc.....I know that in music it's this way. >When I write part of a song, the part of it that I write is mine and I don't >have to apply for copyright. One method that is often used is that when >something is written, you record it, seal it in an envelope with a copy of >the front page from that days newspaper, take it to a lawyer and say "keep >this and don't ever open it." This way, if a court case comes up, you take >the envelope into court and open it infront of the judge and the newspaper, >along with the lawyer, proves when it was done.

I've heard of this method before. But how could the court be sure that you didn't take the front page of an old newspaper and place it inside an envelope the same day you entered the court? >So if nothing was signed (ie a contract saying that they own everything and >you own nothing), I would think that moneywise, you are still entitled to >the percentage that you contributed to the overall product. A percentage, right. But in this case he's saying that he's receiving all of the profit, not just a percentage. Best regards, Moon-Watcher

Moon-Watcher wrote:

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> > On Fri, 15 Sep 2000 20:24:05 +1000, "Incubus" <[email hidden]> enlightened us all with these kind words of wisdom: > > >That's what I was thinking too Marc.....I know that in music it's this way. > >When I write part of a song, the part of it that I write is mine and I don't > >have to apply for copyright. One method that is often used is that when > >something is written, you record it, seal it in an envelope with a copy of > >the front page from that days newspaper, take it to a lawyer and say "keep > >this and don't ever open it." This way, if a court case comes up, you take > >the envelope into court and open it infront of the judge and the newspaper, > >along with the lawyer, proves when it was done. > > I've heard of this method before. But how could the court be sure that you didn't take the front page of an old newspaper and place it inside an > envelope the same day you entered the court?

I believe the part about placing the envelope with a lawyer is an important part here, a lawyer is an officer of the court or something, and *should* :-) be a trusted person in these matters Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

Moon-Watcher wrote:

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> > On Fri, 15 Sep 2000 20:24:05 +1000, "Incubus" <[email hidden]> enlightened us all with these kind words of wisdom: > > >That's what I was thinking too Marc.....I know that in music it's this way. > >When I write part of a song, the part of it that I write is mine and I don't > >have to apply for copyright. One method that is often used is that when > >something is written, you record it, seal it in an envelope with a copy of > >the front page from that days newspaper, take it to a lawyer and say "keep > >this and don't ever open it." This way, if a court case comes up, you take > >the envelope into court and open it infront of the judge and the newspaper, > >along with the lawyer, proves when it was done. > > I've heard of this method before. But how could the court be sure that you didn't take the front page of an old newspaper and place it inside an > envelope the same day you entered the court?

A better way would be to mail the envelope to yourself and keeping it sealed until required in court. The dated postmark will show when it was done.

I forgot....you're then supposed to mail it back to yourself by registered mail and THEN take it to your lawyer. That way you have it dated.

proving who created the files are not a problem, hence ownership of files are easily proven. On Fri, 15 Sep 2000 20:24:05 +1000, "Incubus" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>That's what I was thinking too Marc.....I know that in music it's this way. >When I write part of a song, the part of it that I write is mine and I don't >have to apply for copyright. One method that is often used is that when >something is written, you record it, seal it in an envelope with a copy of >the front page from that days newspaper, take it to a lawyer and say "keep >this and don't ever open it." This way, if a court case comes up, you take >the envelope into court and open it infront of the judge and the newspaper, >along with the lawyer, proves when it was done. > >Money wise, as a band, you submit to an organisation (different names in >different countries but in Australia it's called APRA) who the songwriters >are, and what percentage each has contributed to the particular song and >then everyone involved has to sign for it. This is not for copyright, but >for getting paid whenever the song is played in public, even if you're the >one playing it. APRA then splits any money according to the percentages you >gave them, and sends the money out to you once a year. > >So if nothing was signed (ie a contract saying that they own everything and >you own nothing), I would think that moneywise, you are still entitled to >the percentage that you contributed to the overall product. Whatever you >"thought up" is always yours.....for example, you could use that same code >again in another application.....just like I could use my exact same music >from one song, the next time I write a new song. > >

In article <[email hidden]>, Moon-Watcher <[email hidden]> writes:

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>On Fri, 15 Sep 2000 20:24:05 +1000, "Incubus" <[email hidden]> enlightened us >all with these kind words of wisdom: > >>That's what I was thinking too Marc.....I know that in music it's this way. >>When I write part of a song, the part of it that I write is mine and I don't >>have to apply for copyright. One method that is often used is that when >>something is written, you record it, seal it in an envelope with a copy of >>the front page from that days newspaper, take it to a lawyer and say "keep >>this and don't ever open it." This way, if a court case comes up, you take >>the envelope into court and open it infront of the judge and the newspaper, >>along with the lawyer, proves when it was done. > >I've heard of this method before. But how could the court be sure that you >didn't take the front page of an old newspaper and place it inside an >envelope the same day you entered the court? >

Mail the envelope to yourself, THEN give it to the lawyer. That way, you'd have the postmark date...<g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +50.77 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

That's what I was thinking too Marc.....I know that in music it's this way. When I write part of a song, the part of it that I write is mine and I don't have to apply for copyright. One method that is often used is that when something is written, you record it, seal it in an envelope with a copy of the front page from that days newspaper, take it to a lawyer and say "keep this and don't ever open it." This way, if a court case comes up, you take the envelope into court and open it infront of the judge and the newspaper, along with the lawyer, proves when it was done. Money wise, as a band, you submit to an organisation (different names in different countries but in Australia it's called APRA) who the songwriters are, and what percentage each has contributed to the particular song and then everyone involved has to sign for it. This is not for copyright, but for getting paid whenever the song is played in public, even if you're the one playing it. APRA then splits any money according to the percentages you gave them, and sends the money out to you once a year. So if nothing was signed (ie a contract saying that they own everything and you own nothing), I would think that moneywise, you are still entitled to the percentage that you contributed to the overall product. Whatever you "thought up" is always yours.....for example, you could use that same code again in another application.....just like I could use my exact same music from one song, the next time I write a new song.

The old "poor man's copyright" that was often used by a friend of mine was to put it in an envelope and then mail it back to himself, can't argue with a post marked unopened envelope. Zontor Kinda smacks of Rambus ya think? \On Thu, 14 Sep 2000 15:04:04 +0100, Moon-Watcher <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>On Fri, 15 Sep 2000 20:24:05 +1000, "Incubus" <[email hidden]> enlightened us all with these kind words of wisdom: > >>That's what I was thinking too Marc.....I know that in music it's this way. >>When I write part of a song, the part of it that I write is mine and I don't >>have to apply for copyright. One method that is often used is that when >>something is written, you record it, seal it in an envelope with a copy of >>the front page from that days newspaper, take it to a lawyer and say "keep >>this and don't ever open it." This way, if a court case comes up, you take >>the envelope into court and open it infront of the judge and the newspaper, >>along with the lawyer, proves when it was done. > >I've heard of this method before. But how could the court be sure that you didn't take the front page of an old newspaper and place it inside an >envelope the same day you entered the court? > >>So if nothing was signed (ie a contract saying that they own everything and >>you own nothing), I would think that moneywise, you are still entitled to >>the percentage that you contributed to the overall product. > >A percentage, right. But in this case he's saying that he's receiving all of the profit, not just a percentage. > >Best regards, > >Moon-Watcher

On Sun, 08 Oct 2000 14:03:50 GMT, Zontor <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>The old "poor man's copyright" that was often used by a friend of mine >was to put it in an envelope and then mail it back to himself, can't >argue with a post marked unopened envelope. > >Zontor > >Kinda smacks of Rambus ya think? > >\On Thu, 14 Sep 2000 15:04:04 +0100, Moon-Watcher ><[email hidden]> wrote: > >>On Fri, 15 Sep 2000 20:24:05 +1000, "Incubus" <[email hidden]> enlightened us all with these kind words of wisdom:

Zontor..you need to get those cobwebs out of your newsreader... ~daxe