And so it begins

krammer and Co.s present attitude is simply a disgrace. As others have stated their parting gift to the sim racing community was the T/A physics contained within the Nascar 2003 exe. To me, that's a gift freely given. Nothing was said when the Truck mod or the Aero mod were released. Nothing was said when new tracks were made. Nothing was said about creating new and accurate paint schemes. Now it seems that Mr. Krammer finds any modifications to his nas 2003 exe a violation of the North American Copywrite laws. I would caution Mr. Krammer to reconsider the continued slapping of the hands that will feed him. As he and his partners may very well find a rapidly shrinking market for their product, or barely no market at all.

I agree fully,D.K. is biting the hands that feed him (and fed him)maybe he is gonna make a high end sim to use in motorsports as a trainer,may be his only market after all this.Although there are quite a few simmers racing the real stuff in nascar and IRL. Joel Willstein wrote:

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> krammer and Co.s present attitude is simply a disgrace. As others > have stated their parting gift to the sim racing community was the T/A > physics contained within the Nascar 2003 exe. To me, that's a gift > freely given. Nothing was said when the Truck mod or the Aero mod were > released. Nothing was said when new tracks were made. Nothing was said > about creating new and accurate paint schemes. Now it seems that Mr. > Krammer finds any modifications to his nas 2003 exe a violation of the > North American Copywrite laws. > > I would caution Mr. Krammer to reconsider the continued slapping of > the hands that will feed him. As he and his partners may very well find > a rapidly shrinking market for their product, or barely no market at all. > > >

jwilson54 <[email hidden]> wrote in news:jiJ0e.103246$Ze3.27565@attbi_s51: > I agree fully,D.K. is biting the hands that feed him (and fed > him)maybe he is gonna make a high end sim to use in motorsports as a > trainer,may be his only market after all this.Although there are quite > a few simmers > racing the real stuff in nascar and IRL. > If FIRST's intended market is professional racing outfits looking for simulation software, then pissing off a load of gamers isn't going to make anybody's commercial decisions any harder to make. cheers John

"JM" wrote: > If FIRST's intended market is professional racing outfits looking for > simulation software, then pissing off a load of gamers isn't going to make > anybody's commercial decisions any harder to make. I've stated before I don't think the impact of the mods nor the impact of FIRST's PR tactics with the community will make a bit of difference to their bottom line. It just makes the comments on their (rather poor) website about working with the sim community a bit thin. If they come up with the goods I am sure they will be "forgiven" by most racing simmers. It does seem as if they have been really busy and the whole internet thing took off without them knowing. Sensitive to public forums (people can be quite nasty there you know!), attempting to close down the distribution of tools on websites (there are whole copies of their games available underground) and finally having a website that looks like it was knocked up down the pub...

Yeah, And since EA has proven more or less that it cant step in to fill formerly Papy's shoes, how much can you argue that there could be a profit in the future? I do ask this, if your sister asked you to quit callin her a 'ho' in public, would you? Why would this "supporter" refuse to do quit doing something he was asked to not do anymore? I mean gee-mah-nee, they asked everyone to please quit, then cease and decist? Then one guy says "no way, I think it is free to do what I please with" and then threatens to publish the code, ooopsy? Come on, what did you expect someone who 'purchased' the rights, to do? Kinda like holding a gun to someone's head to make them give you what you want? Ok, Maybe they (first) didnt say 'pretty please' enough? Tony Rickard enlightened us with:

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> "JM" wrote: > >> If FIRST's intended market is professional racing outfits looking for >> simulation software, then pissing off a load of gamers isn't going >> to make anybody's commercial decisions any harder to make. > > I've stated before I don't think the impact of the mods nor the > impact of FIRST's PR tactics with the community will make a bit of > difference to their bottom line. > > It just makes the comments on their (rather poor) website about > working with the sim community a bit thin. If they come up with the > goods I am sure they will be "forgiven" by most racing simmers. > > It does seem as if they have been really busy and the whole internet > thing took off without them knowing. Sensitive to public forums > (people can be quite nasty there you know!), attempting to close down > the distribution of tools on websites (there are whole copies of > their games available underground) and finally having a website that > looks like it was knocked up down the pub...

"Plowboy" wrote: > I mean gee-mah-nee, they asked everyone to please quit, then cease and > decist? Then one guy says "no way, I think it is free to do what I please > with" and then threatens to publish the code, ooopsy? Come on, what did > you expect someone who 'purchased' the rights, to do? Kinda like holding > a gun to someone's head to make them give you what you want? Ok, Maybe > they (first) didnt say 'pretty please' enough? I agree they don't seem to have much choice. Having had years of use out of Kaemmer's work supplemented by the modding community it does seem something of a dilemma when the two groups that have provided such entertainment are going against each other. Although as the facts are coming out it would appear TM is actively encouraging the action. The initial question was over whether the mods would harm FIRST which was open to some debate. The debate ends when the action taken is as you describe. I still think plastering it on their brand website which still hasn't got any concrete product info isn't the best thing to do. I understand they want to make a stand but I would have thought that best left with the lawyers and issue a simple press release to that effect IMHO. Cheers Tony

On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 14:08:08 -0600, "Plowboy" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Yeah, > >And since EA has proven more or less that it cant step in to fill formerly >Papy's shoes, how much can you argue that there could be a profit in the >future? > >I do ask this, if your sister asked you to quit callin her a 'ho' in public, >would you? Why would this "supporter" refuse to do quit doing something he >was asked to not do anymore? > >I mean gee-mah-nee, they asked everyone to please quit, then cease and >decist? Then one guy says "no way, I think it is free to do what I please >with" and then threatens to publish the code, ooopsy? Come on, what did you >expect someone who 'purchased' the rights, to do? Kinda like holding a gun >to someone's head to make them give you what you want? Ok, Maybe they >(first) didnt say 'pretty please' enough? >

Except that Tim never said he'll do what he pleases. He made an offer to pull the mods, and did, but First demanded that he jump through various other hoops, which he was unwilling to do (because in several cases they were unreasonable or unenforceable).

John, All I can say about what you posted is "OH." Good point. I think I quit reading too soon, as i now saw the part where they asked him to cough up 5 grand? jebus... John DiFool enlightened us with: > Except that Tim never said he'll do what he pleases. He made an offer > to pull the mods, and did, but First demanded that he jump through > various other hoops, which he was unwilling to do (because in several > cases they were unreasonable or unenforceable).

wish I could edit the last, but I should say skimmed past the part about 5000 dollars expected by Fist phucks... after all I read the at the time, 4 pages of the forum... I didnt do diligent attention to detail, give em hell Tim, this is outrageous IMHO. Plowboy enlightened us with:

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> John, > > All I can say about what you posted is "OH." Good point. I think I > quit reading too soon, as i now saw the part where they asked him to > cough up 5 grand? jebus... > > > > John DiFool enlightened us with: >> Except that Tim never said he'll do what he pleases. He made an >> offer to pull the mods, and did, but First demanded that he jump >> through various other hoops, which he was unwilling to do (because >> in several cases they were unreasonable or unenforceable).

"Plowboy" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:Hc_0e.66713$7z6.59315@lakeread04:

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> Yeah, > > And since EA has proven more or less that it cant step in to fill > formerly Papy's shoes, how much can you argue that there could be a > profit in the future? > > I do ask this, if your sister asked you to quit callin her a 'ho' in > public, would you? Why would this "supporter" refuse to do quit doing > something he was asked to not do anymore? > > I mean gee-mah-nee, they asked everyone to please quit, then cease and > decist? Then one guy says "no way, I think it is free to do what I > please with" and then threatens to publish the code, ooopsy? Come on, > what did you expect someone who 'purchased' the rights, to do? Kinda > like holding a gun to someone's head to make them give you what you > want? Ok, Maybe they (first) didnt say 'pretty please' enough?

Well, DK calling mod makers hackers and thieves didn't go down too well and predates any public cock waggling by Tim McA, and that's not even mentioning the train related brain-wrongs. cheers John

? I thought it went : emails and cease and desists asking modders to cease and desist. modders mostly comply, with redline going so far as to get a license to do it properly. Tim comes out and says "you cant stop me" RSC gets inundated with guys thinking that Tim in the new messiah. FIRST issue press release telling community why they issued the Cease and Desist notices. Tim still says "you cant stop me" so now a judge will. pez "JM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> "Plowboy" <[email hidden]> wrote in > news:Hc_0e.66713$7z6.59315@lakeread04: > > > Yeah, > > > > And since EA has proven more or less that it cant step in to fill > > formerly Papy's shoes, how much can you argue that there could be a > > profit in the future? > > > > I do ask this, if your sister asked you to quit callin her a 'ho' in > > public, would you? Why would this "supporter" refuse to do quit doing > > something he was asked to not do anymore? > > > > I mean gee-mah-nee, they asked everyone to please quit, then cease and > > decist? Then one guy says "no way, I think it is free to do what I > > please with" and then threatens to publish the code, ooopsy? Come on, > > what did you expect someone who 'purchased' the rights, to do? Kinda > > like holding a gun to someone's head to make them give you what you > > want? Ok, Maybe they (first) didnt say 'pretty please' enough? > > > Well, DK calling mod makers hackers and thieves didn't go down too well

and > predates any public cock waggling by Tim McA, and that's not even > mentioning the train related brain-wrongs. > > cheers > John

On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 14:02:05 +0100, "Pez" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>? > >I thought it went : > >emails and cease and desists asking modders to cease and desist. > >modders mostly comply, with redline going so far as to get a license to do >it properly. > >Tim comes out and says "you cant stop me" > >RSC gets inundated with guys thinking that Tim in the new messiah. > >FIRST issue press release telling community why they issued the Cease and >Desist notices. > >Tim still says "you cant stop me" > >so now a judge will. > >

Jeez get your facts straight. Tim DID stop, but First demanded more of him than just that: http://www.tmcarthur.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52 [First post] As of yesterday tho it looks like both sides agreed that Tim would not be distributing any code or physics unlockers: http://www.tmcarthur.net/temp/FIRST_3-28-05.pdf

jeez? tell me im wrong. Tim phoned FIRST after the whole debacle had started, with modders having had contact from FIRST asking them to stop. This is the extra detail that you may be missing : FIRST issues out its warning to modders to stop, then FIRST, upon getting bad press from the modders, issues its statement on its web site. Tim stated over at RSC that he thought they were wrong. Then he phoned them. What was said in that conversation is between Tim and FIRST, although from that phone call stemmed FIRSTs extended requests to Tim. get my facts straight? http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=197145&page=5&pp=25 --------------------------------------------------------------------- So now Tim has signed a TRO, itll be interesting to see what happens next. pez "John DiFool" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 14:02:05 +0100, "Pez" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >? > > > >I thought it went : > > > >emails and cease and desists asking modders to cease and desist. > > > >modders mostly comply, with redline going so far as to get a license to

do

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> >it properly. > > > >Tim comes out and says "you cant stop me" > > > >RSC gets inundated with guys thinking that Tim in the new messiah. > > > >FIRST issue press release telling community why they issued the Cease and > >Desist notices. > > > >Tim still says "you cant stop me" > > > >so now a judge will. > > > > > > > Jeez get your facts straight. Tim DID stop, but First demanded > more of him than just that: > > http://www.tmcarthur.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52 > > [First post] > > As of yesterday tho it looks like both sides agreed that Tim would > not be distributing any code or physics unlockers: > > http://www.tmcarthur.net/temp/FIRST_3-28-05.pdf >