Will work for speed - GPL(again)

Someone(Andre, I think) suggested posting some laps where I wasn't *quite* so in control. The theory being, people could see what I was doing wrong easier, and could suggest ways not to do it.<g> Well... http://www.umich.edu/~epickett/computer_racing.htm Click on "Please help a struggling GPL driver"... It should work for a *couple* of days, anyway. Some are from practice, some from races against the AI. I left my screwups in for humor value... I'm still trying to figure out why it seems to me that I'm barely holding on, but it doesn't look that way to anyone else who sees the replays...<shrug> Thanks for any suggestions. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +49.67 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Just what I was looking for! Although my handicap is better than yours, I feel we are not too far apart on capabilities. I'll provide my feedback as soon as I can. Jeff H. aka speedcrazed EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Someone(Andre, I think) suggested posting some laps where I wasn't *quite*so > in control. The theory being, people could see what I was doing wrongeasier, > and could suggest ways not to do it.<g> Well... > http://www.umich.edu/~epickett/computer_racing.htm > > Click on "Please help a struggling GPL driver"... It should work for a > *couple* of days, anyway. > Some are from practice, some from races against the AI. I left myscrewups in > for humor value... I'm still trying to figure out why it seems to me thatI'm > barely holding on, but it doesn't look that way to anyone else who seesthe > replays...<shrug> > Thanks for any suggestions. > > Eldred > --

OK, I only got to watch replay of Silverstone, but that's the first track I got good results on. You need to work on trail braking. If your doing it right, you will turn in alot quicker than you expect and will have to be back on the throttle quickly or spin out. You should get big gains on all turns from that. At the entry to Maggotts, you should get better results staying off the brake. I can run through it with a slowest speed of 140 mph if done well by just easing off the throttle and getting back to full throttle when it's pointed inside the apex. At the approach to Chapel, your line is good but you need to be on the throttle earlier to get the straight line speed. As you are pointed towrd the apex on entry, get back on the throttle harder but unwind the steering to keep from wasting the acceleration or spinning out. At Abbey 3rd is OK but you lose by not being harder on the throttle through the turn. From your spin out of Maggotts it looks like you don't unwind the steering to match the oversteer from full throttle acceleration. I can't say my advice is the best, but I hope it can get you a couple of seconds overall. Jeff H. aka speedcrazed EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Someone(Andre, I think) suggested posting some laps where I wasn't *quite*so > in control. The theory being, people could see what I was doing wrongeasier, > and could suggest ways not to do it.<g> Well... > http://www.umich.edu/~epickett/computer_racing.htm >

In article <7Ldy5.101001$[email hidden]>, "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> writes: > Good idea Eldred..I was gonna submit some replays...but the camera men >were laughing too hard...didn't get recorded... >(messing with NH anyway...and NL...) >{and just for good measure} >Where's that NEW CART SIM???!!! Hehe... I debated(CART) whether I should post those - even with the totally STUPID mistakes in some of the(CART) laps. I ended up thinking, 'couldn't hurt'... Besides(CART), I *think* we got rid of the laughing on my replays...<g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +49.67 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <8qbrkk$gum$[email hidden]>, "Jeff Hails" <[email hidden]> writes: >OK, I only got to watch replay of Silverstone, but that's the first track I >got good results on.[snip] Ok, thanks. I printed your suggestions, and will be studying them this weekend... We'll see if it helps, although Chapel worries me. I can't tell where the edge of the track is on exit, so I'm always tentative about applying throttle. Silverstone seems to be the worst for that. I'm never really sure I've *made* the turn until I'm going straight again. Hence, the late throttle. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +49.67 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Good idea Eldred..I was gonna submit some replays...but the camera men were laughing too hard...didn't get recorded... (messing with NH anyway...and NL...) {and just for good measure} Where's that NEW CART SIM???!!! dave henrie "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Someone(Andre, I think) suggested posting some laps where I wasn't *quite*

Hey Eldred MATE, i just downloaded your replays and ill have a look and get some tips ;) Troy "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Someone(Andre, I think) suggested posting some laps where I wasn't *quite*so > in control. The theory being, people could see what I was doing wrongeasier, > and could suggest ways not to do it.<g> Well... > http://www.umich.edu/~epickett/computer_racing.htm > > Click on "Please help a struggling GPL driver"... It should work for a > *couple* of days, anyway. > Some are from practice, some from races against the AI. I left myscrewups in > for humor value... I'm still trying to figure out why it seems to me thatI'm > barely holding on, but it doesn't look that way to anyone else who seesthe

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> replays...<shrug> > Thanks for any suggestions. > > Eldred > -- > Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPL hcp. +49.67 > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats

you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Im supposed to be drivng a Peugeot 306 GTi and a formula ford around donington in about a months time....what advice would you give to people new to motorracing there? what did you guys tell the newbies before they set off for the first time? Is the layout anything like toca 2? pez -1.51 gplrank....hope itll be even lower when i trade in this p200... Maxx wrote in message ...

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> >Eldred, > >Had a spare half-hour so decided to take a look at your replays. > >I should say first off that as far as times go, GPLRank etc. I'm not >far ahead of you. F1 Rank is +26.07. > >I really enjoyed watching the replays as. to be honest, I've only >ever watched my own and some of the WRs. > >I was for many years an instructor for the Jim Russell School who >were featured on the "Drive to Win" video. I was based at the >UK branch at Donington Park. I got to thinking how great it would >have been if we could have watched in-car replays of the drivers. >We had to stand around at various points of the circuit and >observe the drivers going through various sections, very useful >and does give information that you couldn't get from the "cockpit >cam" but the two would have been great. > >Anyway, as an instructor, we are told to "tell it like it is" so >apologies if most of what I say is critical. > >I watched the replays more for style and general driving habits >rather than for specific corners/braking points etc. I just made >some general notes and will just reproduce them as I wrote >them with a little expansion. I looked at Kya/Mex/Sil and Zan. > >1) As a general comment, first noticed at Kyl bit pretty much >at every circuit, you seem to want to get all your braking >done before the corner, such that, you can afford to get on >the gas v.early in the corner and although not full accel it >is not a "balanced throttle" either. I rarely if ever saw a moment >where you where completely off the gas in any part of the corner >which, when you are really on the limit CAN be a bad thing but >you are NOT on the limit through the corner EXCEPT for the >fact that you are accelerating which is putting you on the limit. > >Difficult to explain but try this an experiment, drive a circuit that >you fel you have the braking points off pat. Brake as you >would normally but DO NOT get back on the throttel, just >drive through the corner on 0 gas. Now you are going to >swap end on some corners, as you need a balanced throttle >[EXP: balanced throttle=just enough gas to keep you at the >speed you are travelling] >If you do get round the corner, take on board how slow you were >going when you finally straightened out. I would imagine pretty >slow. Try it again and try just a very small amount of throttle, not >enough to actually accelerate. > >It's impossible to give you a technique for all corners but as a >general observation, you are going into most corner too slowly >(except slow corner, where you generally are going a little too >fast] > >What we use to teach people is to brake up until the point >of turn in, come offthe barke and onto the gas as smoothly >as possible and apply sufficient gas to keep a fairly constant >speed through the corner, as you unwind the wheel you can >apply A LITTLE more gas and when the wheel is straight you >can apply full gas. Obviously no-one set lap records this way >but they did develop the right style which they can then adapt >to the various corners. > >2) Braking: It appears from the replay that you generally jump >on the brakes and you can from 0 to max (and often max to >0) in a split-second. If you (a) lift off the gas it will "unbalance" >the car and if you (b) jump on the brakes it will imbalance the car. >If you do (a) immediatly followed by (b) you will cause even more >imbalance. > >You should try and do the following as you approach the corner. >Ease off the gas->Apply the brake (press the brake gardually] >as the car starst to slow, press the brake harder, ease back off >the brake and turn-in (trail-braking is where you turn in as you still >have some brake pressure applied) although a valuable technique >it is not suitable for all corners, does not have a huge effct on >lap times, needs lots of practice. > >Now when you first try and do the above, you WILL be slower. >but as you do a few more laps and feel happier that you have the >car under control in the corner you will go through corner that little >bit quicker (as you will be entering them a little quicker). You >should also be under more control mid-corner which will aloow you >to be on the gas BETTER (note I didn't say sooner). No point >being on the gas if it is pushing you wider on the exit (if you took >the corner at max speed/best line, there woukd be no room for >this anyway). > >MORE. > >I noticed (part silverstone) that you come off hard brakes and >then turn in. This measn that you unbalance the car JUST at >the point where you need MAX balance. By lifting off you >immediatly shift balance from the front of the car (i.e. shift >WEIGHT from the front), JUST at the point when you could do >with it, this then leads you to sort of "lurch" into the corner very >much like "rally" style. Almost all corner at Silverstone will >beneit from a little trail-braking but you need to start by just >easing off the brakes and gradually applying the balanced >throttle. > >Observation: I suffer from this as well, you like to hear the >engine constantly revving. This leads you a) to often choose >to low a gear and b) to want to put too much throttle in a corner. > >CONSITENCY, well I havent seen your best laps but from the >replays I would suggest that (SORRY) on the whole they were >just lucky. I refer specifically to Zanvoort where I don't think >there is any part of the circuit where you are really in full >control of the car and the best lap of 1:28.20 was a couple >of seconds quicker than most of the rest and you were just >lucky that the car decided to go through the corners right on >that particular lap. > >Now, of course, many WRs have that element of luck, but we >are not talking WRs here. You'll notice on some of the WR >replays that the other laps shown (in some progs it shows other >laptimes) that they are often wildly different from the fast lap. >Thats because these guys are on the very limit and to get >there you HAVE to take chances. > >Now, I'm not just talking lap times, certainly at Zandy you >rarely seem to change gear in the same place twice, often >using different gears (i.e. hairpin sometimes 1st, others 2nd) > >LINE: Agruably the most important single factor, certainly if >you don't use the "right" line, no matter how good you can >brake, trail-brake, accellerate etc. etc. you are not going to >get near top times. > >I booked into GPLRank at about +122, came down pretty >fast to about +50 as I was still leaarning the circuits and getting >used to the car. Moving from +50 to +26 I would say has been >more to do with getting better lines than anything else. > >In general you do not use the full width of the circuit on >entry into corner and on the exit. Not on all but quite a lot, >particularly silverstone. If you every examine a top laps >against your own you will see that the top laps car uses all of >the circuit and chooses the optimum line through any given corner, >if you are not on the same line you are likely to be losing time even >before you start looking at braking points etc. > >I've recently done the fuill 11 circuits in F2s then in F3 (pretty >much skipped these early on). I really would suggest you put a >few hours aside, run the F3s and concentrate on LINE. You dont >have to worry so much about wheelspin and controlling instability >as the F3s are much gentler. My times (Maxx F3) are on GPLRank. >They aren't brilliant as I only spent 5-6 hours on the whole 11 >circuits but you should be able to get pretty close. > >I would probably pick a couple of tracks to work on. I'd suggest >Zandy and Silverstone as they are so different. Stick to one car >(I find the Brabham a great little F3 car). > >You absolutely must have a good line for F3 as there is no room >real opportunity to later line mid-corner with the throttle. > >Question: Do you use FF, if so you MAY have it a little strong, >whilst this gives you more of a feeling it does tend to make >you react to feel rather than sight. And often that FEEL is just >a little out of synch with what is actually happening with the >car. > >OK, the rough stuffs over with now, always save the compliment >till laste so they don't pee in your beer later that evening (a well >known chief instructors saying). > >You DO have good car control, the BAD habits you have mean >that this skill has been honed to a high degree so this will stand >you in good stead when you get faster and faster which I am >convinced you will. > >I really hope the above helps, it's advice that even I find difficult >to follow as deeply ingrained habits are hard to overcome and >often you just cannot see them in your own driving. > >Oh, one final point, don't try and emulate the Huttu's of this >world, or try and struggle with their setups, they have fine >tuned their skill and setups over a long period of time and have >likely had to master the above before moving on. > >They are good to watch for their lines but forget trying to brake as >last as them, or wondering how they carry that speed through that >corner. I also recal you didn't get anything from track guides. I >don't either much as they tend to make you THINK too much about >every braking point, gear change etc. There are so many slightly >differrent styles that we cannot fit into someone else, but the basics >remain the same. The one time I do find them useful is, if I know >that I am really poor at a particlar corner/section, they may just >me some insight. > >Best of Luck. > >Maxx > >GPLrank >F1 Malcolm Edeson + 26.07 >F2 Maxx F2 +121.86 >F3 Maxx F3 +315.42 > > >On 20 Sep 2000 23:03:20 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: > >>Someone(Andre, I think) suggested posting some laps where I wasn't *quite*

so >>in control. The theory being, people could see what I was doing wrongeasier, >>and could suggest ways not to do it.<g> Well... >>http://www.umich.edu/~epickett/computer_racing.htm >> >>Click on "Please help a struggling GPL driver"... It should work for a >>*couple* of days, anyway. >>Some are from practice, some from races against the AI. I left myscrewups in >>for humor value... I'm still trying to figure out why it seems to me thatI'm >>barely holding on, but it doesn't look that way to anyone else who seesthe >>replays...<shrug> >>Thanks for any suggestions. >> >>Eldred >

what about the bump after the old hairpin? i was looking at some incar video from the btcc and it looks like its not there now...? pez tesstuff wrote in message ...

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>Pez > >I did the same thing in March,its exactly the same as Donington GP in Toca >2. > >have fun..I did..lol > > >"pez" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:8qg6bg$55i$[email hidden]... >> Im supposed to be drivng a Peugeot 306 GTi and a formula ford around >> donington in about a months time....what advice would you give to people >new >> to motorracing there? what did you guys tell the newbies before they set >> off for the first time? Is the layout anything like toca 2? >> >> pez -1.51 gplrank....hope itll be even lower when i trade in this p200... >> >> Maxx wrote in message ... >> > >> >Eldred, >> > >> >Had a spare half-hour so decided to take a look at your replays. >> > >> >I should say first off that as far as times go, GPLRank etc. I'm not >> >far ahead of you. F1 Rank is +26.07. >> > >> >I really enjoyed watching the replays as. to be honest, I've only >> >ever watched my own and some of the WRs. >> > >> >I was for many years an instructor for the Jim Russell School who >> >were featured on the "Drive to Win" video. I was based at the >> >UK branch at Donington Park. I got to thinking how great it would >> >have been if we could have watched in-car replays of the drivers. >> >We had to stand around at various points of the circuit and >> >observe the drivers going through various sections, very useful >> >and does give information that you couldn't get from the "cockpit >> >cam" but the two would have been great. >> > >> >Anyway, as an instructor, we are told to "tell it like it is" so >> >apologies if most of what I say is critical. >> > >> >I watched the replays more for style and general driving habits >> >rather than for specific corners/braking points etc. I just made >> >some general notes and will just reproduce them as I wrote >> >them with a little expansion. I looked at Kya/Mex/Sil and Zan. >> > >> >1) As a general comment, first noticed at Kyl bit pretty much >> >at every circuit, you seem to want to get all your braking >> >done before the corner, such that, you can afford to get on >> >the gas v.early in the corner and although not full accel it >> >is not a "balanced throttle" either. I rarely if ever saw a moment >> >where you where completely off the gas in any part of the corner >> >which, when you are really on the limit CAN be a bad thing but >> >you are NOT on the limit through the corner EXCEPT for the >> >fact that you are accelerating which is putting you on the limit. >> > >> >Difficult to explain but try this an experiment, drive a circuit that >> >you fel you have the braking points off pat. Brake as you >> >would normally but DO NOT get back on the throttel, just >> >drive through the corner on 0 gas. Now you are going to >> >swap end on some corners, as you need a balanced throttle >> >[EXP: balanced throttle=just enough gas to keep you at the >> >speed you are travelling] >> >If you do get round the corner, take on board how slow you were >> >going when you finally straightened out. I would imagine pretty >> >slow. Try it again and try just a very small amount of throttle, not >> >enough to actually accelerate. >> > >> >It's impossible to give you a technique for all corners but as a >> >general observation, you are going into most corner too slowly >> >(except slow corner, where you generally are going a little too >> >fast] >> > >> >What we use to teach people is to brake up until the point >> >of turn in, come offthe barke and onto the gas as smoothly >> >as possible and apply sufficient gas to keep a fairly constant >> >speed through the corner, as you unwind the wheel you can >> >apply A LITTLE more gas and when the wheel is straight you >> >can apply full gas. Obviously no-one set lap records this way >> >but they did develop the right style which they can then adapt >> >to the various corners. >> > >> >2) Braking: It appears from the replay that you generally jump >> >on the brakes and you can from 0 to max (and often max to >> >0) in a split-second. If you (a) lift off the gas it will "unbalance" >> >the car and if you (b) jump on the brakes it will imbalance the car. >> >If you do (a) immediatly followed by (b) you will cause even more >> >imbalance. >> > >> >You should try and do the following as you approach the corner. >> >Ease off the gas->Apply the brake (press the brake gardually] >> >as the car starst to slow, press the brake harder, ease back off >> >the brake and turn-in (trail-braking is where you turn in as you still >> >have some brake pressure applied) although a valuable technique >> >it is not suitable for all corners, does not have a huge effct on >> >lap times, needs lots of practice. >> > >> >Now when you first try and do the above, you WILL be slower. >> >but as you do a few more laps and feel happier that you have the >> >car under control in the corner you will go through corner that little >> >bit quicker (as you will be entering them a little quicker). You >> >should also be under more control mid-corner which will aloow you >> >to be on the gas BETTER (note I didn't say sooner). No point >> >being on the gas if it is pushing you wider on the exit (if you took >> >the corner at max speed/best line, there woukd be no room for >> >this anyway). >> > >> >MORE. >> > >> >I noticed (part silverstone) that you come off hard brakes and >> >then turn in. This measn that you unbalance the car JUST at >> >the point where you need MAX balance. By lifting off you >> >immediatly shift balance from the front of the car (i.e. shift >> >WEIGHT from the front), JUST at the point when you could do >> >with it, this then leads you to sort of "lurch" into the corner very >> >much like "rally" style. Almost all corner at Silverstone will >> >beneit from a little trail-braking but you need to start by just >> >easing off the brakes and gradually applying the balanced >> >throttle. >> > >> >Observation: I suffer from this as well, you like to hear the >> >engine constantly revving. This leads you a) to often choose >> >to low a gear and b) to want to put too much throttle in a corner. >> > >> >CONSITENCY, well I havent seen your best laps but from the >> >replays I would suggest that (SORRY) on the whole they were >> >just lucky. I refer specifically to Zanvoort where I don't think >> >there is any part of the circuit where you are really in full >> >control of the car and the best lap of 1:28.20 was a couple >> >of seconds quicker than most of the rest and you were just >> >lucky that the car decided to go through the corners right on >> >that particular lap. >> > >> >Now, of course, many WRs have that element of luck, but we >> >are not talking WRs here. You'll notice on some of the WR >> >replays that the other laps shown (in some progs it shows other >> >laptimes) that they are often wildly different from the fast lap. >> >Thats because these guys are on the very limit and to get >> >there you HAVE to take chances. >> > >> >Now, I'm not just talking lap times, certainly at Zandy you >> >rarely seem to change gear in the same place twice, often >> >using different gears (i.e. hairpin sometimes 1st, others 2nd) >> > >> >LINE: Agruably the most important single factor, certainly if >> >you don't use the "right" line, no matter how good you can >> >brake, trail-brake, accellerate etc. etc. you are not going to >> >get near top times. >> > >> >I booked into GPLRank at about +122, came down pretty >> >fast to about +50 as I was still leaarning the circuits and getting >> >used to the car. Moving from +50 to +26 I would say has been >> >more to do with getting better lines than anything else. >> > >> >In general you do not use the full width of the circuit on >> >entry into corner and on the exit. Not on all but quite a lot, >> >particularly silverstone. If you every examine a top laps >> >against your own you will see that the top laps car uses all of >> >the circuit and chooses the optimum line through any given corner, >> >if you are not on the same line you are likely to be losing time even >> >before you start looking at braking points etc. >> > >> >I've recently done the fuill 11 circuits in F2s then in F3 (pretty >> >much skipped these early on). I really would suggest you put a >> >few hours aside, run the F3s and concentrate on LINE. You dont >> >have to worry so much about wheelspin and controlling instability >> >as the F3s are much gentler. My times (Maxx F3) are on GPLRank. >> >They aren't brilliant as I only spent 5-6 hours on the whole 11 >> >circuits but you should be able to get pretty close. >> > >> >I would probably pick a couple of tracks to work on. I'd suggest >> >Zandy and Silverstone as they are so different. Stick to one car >> >(I find the Brabham a great little F3 car). >> > >> >You absolutely must have a good line for F3 as there is no room >> >real opportunity to later line mid-corner with the throttle. >> > >> >Question: Do you use FF, if so you MAY have it a little strong, >> >whilst this gives you more of a feeling it does tend to make >> >you react to feel rather than sight. And often that FEEL is just >> >a little out of synch with what is actually happening with the >> >car. >> > >> >OK, the rough stuffs over with now, always save the compliment >> >till laste so they don't pee in your beer later that evening (a well >> >known chief instructors saying). >> > >> >You DO have good car control, the BAD habits you have mean >> >that this skill has been honed to a high degree so this will stand >> >you in good stead when you get faster and faster which I am >> >convinced you will. >> > >> >I really hope the above helps, it's advice that even I find difficult >> >to follow as deeply ingrained habits are hard to overcome and >> >often you just cannot see them in your own driving. >> > >> >Oh, one final point, don't try and emulate the Huttu's of this >> >world, or try and struggle with their setups, they have fine >> >tuned their skill and setups over a long period of time and have >> >likely had to master the above before moving on. >> > >> >They are good to watch for their lines but forget trying to brake as >> >last as them, or wondering how they carry that speed through that >> >corner. I also recal you didn't get anything from track guides. I >> >don't either much as they tend to make you THINK too much about >> >every braking point, gear change etc. There are so many slightly >> >differrent styles that we cannot fit into someone else, but the basics >> >remain the same. The one time I do find them useful is, if I know >> >that I am really poor at a particlar corner/section, they may just >> >me some insight. >> > >> >Best of Luck. >> > >> >Maxx >> > >> >GPLrank >> >F1 Malcolm Edeson + 26.07 >> >F2 Maxx F2 +121.86 >> >F3 Maxx F3 +315.42 >> > >> > >> >On 20 Sep 2000 23:03:20 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: >> > >> >>Someone(Andre, I think) suggested posting some laps where I wasn't >*quite* >> so >> >>in control. The theory being, people could see what I was doing wrong >> easier, >> >>and could suggest ways not to do it.<g> Well... >> >>http://www.umich.edu/~epickett/computer_racing.htm >> >> >> >>Click on "Please help a struggling GPL driver"... It should work for a >> >>*couple* of days, anyway. >> >>Some are from practice, some from races against the AI. I left my >> screwups in >> >>for humor value... I'm still trying to figure out why it seems to me >that >> I'm >> >>barely holding on, but it doesn't look that way to anyone else who sees >> the >> >>replays...<shrug> >> >>Thanks for any suggestions. >> >> >> >>Eldred >> > >> >> > >

I'm another 20 mins from the circuit, taken my car on a track day... went off at the Old Hairpin! No damage luckily, but damn scary when it's your own car! Had a great time though. Only tip I'd have for the track is to watch Coppice, it's not as easy as it looks. -- Daniel Francis

Maxx, Great instructional summary, it proves some things are best done by proffesionals! That advice could benefit most of us. Thanks Jeff H. aka "speedcrazed" Maxx <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > Eldred, > > Had a spare half-hour so decided to take a look at your replays. > > I should say first off that as far as times go, GPLRank etc. I'm not > far ahead of you. F1 Rank is +26.07. > > I really enjoyed watching the replays as. to be honest, I've only > ever watched my own and some of the WRs. > > I was for many years an instructor for the Jim Russell School who > were featured on the "Drive to Win" video. I was based at the > UK branch at Donington Park. I got to thinking how great it would > have been if we could have watched in-car replays of the drivers. > We had to stand around at various points of the circuit and > observe the drivers going through various sections, very useful > and does give information that you couldn't get from the "cockpit > cam" but the two would have been great. > > Anyway, as an instructor, we are told to "tell it like it is" so > apologies if most of what I say is critical. > > Best of Luck. > > Maxx > > GPLrank > F1 Malcolm Edeson + 26.07 > F2 Maxx F2 +121.86 > F3 Maxx F3 +315.42 >

Eldred, Had a spare half-hour so decided to take a look at your replays. I should say first off that as far as times go, GPLRank etc. I'm not far ahead of you. F1 Rank is +26.07. I really enjoyed watching the replays as. to be honest, I've only ever watched my own and some of the WRs. I was for many years an instructor for the Jim Russell School who were featured on the "Drive to Win" video. I was based at the UK branch at Donington Park. I got to thinking how great it would have been if we could have watched in-car replays of the drivers. We had to stand around at various points of the circuit and observe the drivers going through various sections, very useful and does give information that you couldn't get from the "cockpit cam" but the two would have been great. Anyway, as an instructor, we are told to "tell it like it is" so apologies if most of what I say is critical. I watched the replays more for style and general driving habits rather than for specific corners/braking points etc. I just made some general notes and will just reproduce them as I wrote them with a little expansion. I looked at Kya/Mex/Sil and Zan. 1) As a general comment, first noticed at Kyl bit pretty much at every circuit, you seem to want to get all your braking done before the corner, such that, you can afford to get on the gas v.early in the corner and although not full accel it is not a "balanced throttle" either. I rarely if ever saw a moment where you where completely off the gas in any part of the corner which, when you are really on the limit CAN be a bad thing but you are NOT on the limit through the corner EXCEPT for the fact that you are accelerating which is putting you on the limit. Difficult to explain but try this an experiment, drive a circuit that you fel you have the braking points off pat. Brake as you would normally but DO NOT get back on the throttel, just drive through the corner on 0 gas. Now you are going to swap end on some corners, as you need a balanced throttle [EXP: balanced throttle=just enough gas to keep you at the speed you are travelling] If you do get round the corner, take on board how slow you were going when you finally straightened out. I would imagine pretty slow. Try it again and try just a very small amount of throttle, not enough to actually accelerate. It's impossible to give you a technique for all corners but as a general observation, you are going into most corner too slowly (except slow corner, where you generally are going a little too fast] What we use to teach people is to brake up until the point of turn in, come offthe barke and onto the gas as smoothly as possible and apply sufficient gas to keep a fairly constant speed through the corner, as you unwind the wheel you can apply A LITTLE more gas and when the wheel is straight you can apply full gas. Obviously no-one set lap records this way but they did develop the right style which they can then adapt to the various corners. 2) Braking: It appears from the replay that you generally jump on the brakes and you can from 0 to max (and often max to 0) in a split-second. If you (a) lift off the gas it will "unbalance" the car and if you (b) jump on the brakes it will imbalance the car. If you do (a) immediatly followed by (b) you will cause even more imbalance. You should try and do the following as you approach the corner. Ease off the gas->Apply the brake (press the brake gardually] as the car starst to slow, press the brake harder, ease back off the brake and turn-in (trail-braking is where you turn in as you still have some brake pressure applied) although a valuable technique it is not suitable for all corners, does not have a huge effct on lap times, needs lots of practice. Now when you first try and do the above, you WILL be slower. but as you do a few more laps and feel happier that you have the car under control in the corner you will go through corner that little bit quicker (as you will be entering them a little quicker). You should also be under more control mid-corner which will aloow you to be on the gas BETTER (note I didn't say sooner). No point being on the gas if it is pushing you wider on the exit (if you took the corner at max speed/best line, there woukd be no room for this anyway). MORE. I noticed (part silverstone) that you come off hard brakes and then turn in. This measn that you unbalance the car JUST at the point where you need MAX balance. By lifting off you immediatly shift balance from the front of the car (i.e. shift WEIGHT from the front), JUST at the point when you could do with it, this then leads you to sort of "lurch" into the corner very much like "rally" style. Almost all corner at Silverstone will beneit from a little trail-braking but you need to start by just easing off the brakes and gradually applying the balanced throttle. Observation: I suffer from this as well, you like to hear the engine constantly revving. This leads you a) to often choose to low a gear and b) to want to put too much throttle in a corner. CONSITENCY, well I havent seen your best laps but from the replays I would suggest that (SORRY) on the whole they were just lucky. I refer specifically to Zanvoort where I don't think there is any part of the circuit where you are really in full control of the car and the best lap of 1:28.20 was a couple of seconds quicker than most of the rest and you were just lucky that the car decided to go through the corners right on that particular lap. Now, of course, many WRs have that element of luck, but we are not talking WRs here. You'll notice on some of the WR replays that the other laps shown (in some progs it shows other laptimes) that they are often wildly different from the fast lap. Thats because these guys are on the very limit and to get there you HAVE to take chances. Now, I'm not just talking lap times, certainly at Zandy you rarely seem to change gear in the same place twice, often using different gears (i.e. hairpin sometimes 1st, others 2nd) LINE: Agruably the most important single factor, certainly if you don't use the "right" line, no matter how good you can brake, trail-brake, accellerate etc. etc. you are not going to get near top times. I booked into GPLRank at about +122, came down pretty fast to about +50 as I was still leaarning the circuits and getting used to the car. Moving from +50 to +26 I would say has been more to do with getting better lines than anything else. In general you do not use the full width of the circuit on entry into corner and on the exit. Not on all but quite a lot, particularly silverstone. If you every examine a top laps against your own you will see that the top laps car uses all of the circuit and chooses the optimum line through any given corner, if you are not on the same line you are likely to be losing time even before you start looking at braking points etc. I've recently done the fuill 11 circuits in F2s then in F3 (pretty much skipped these early on). I really would suggest you put a few hours aside, run the F3s and concentrate on LINE. You dont have to worry so much about wheelspin and controlling instability as the F3s are much gentler. My times (Maxx F3) are on GPLRank. They aren't brilliant as I only spent 5-6 hours on the whole 11 circuits but you should be able to get pretty close. I would probably pick a couple of tracks to work on. I'd suggest Zandy and Silverstone as they are so different. Stick to one car (I find the Brabham a great little F3 car). You absolutely must have a good line for F3 as there is no room real opportunity to later line mid-corner with the throttle. Question: Do you use FF, if so you MAY have it a little strong, whilst this gives you more of a feeling it does tend to make you react to feel rather than sight. And often that FEEL is just a little out of synch with what is actually happening with the car. OK, the rough stuffs over with now, always save the compliment till laste so they don't pee in your beer later that evening (a well known chief instructors saying). You DO have good car control, the BAD habits you have mean that this skill has been honed to a high degree so this will stand you in good stead when you get faster and faster which I am convinced you will. I really hope the above helps, it's advice that even I find difficult to follow as deeply ingrained habits are hard to overcome and often you just cannot see them in your own driving. Oh, one final point, don't try and emulate the Huttu's of this world, or try and struggle with their setups, they have fine tuned their skill and setups over a long period of time and have likely had to master the above before moving on. They are good to watch for their lines but forget trying to brake as last as them, or wondering how they carry that speed through that corner. I also recal you didn't get anything from track guides. I don't either much as they tend to make you THINK too much about every braking point, gear change etc. There are so many slightly differrent styles that we cannot fit into someone else, but the basics remain the same. The one time I do find them useful is, if I know that I am really poor at a particlar corner/section, they may just me some insight. Best of Luck. Maxx GPLrank F1 Malcolm Edeson + 26.07 F2 Maxx F2 +121.86 F3 Maxx F3 +315.42 On 20 Sep 2000 23:03:20 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote:

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>Someone(Andre, I think) suggested posting some laps where I wasn't *quite* so >in control. The theory being, people could see what I was doing wrong easier, >and could suggest ways not to do it.<g> Well... >http://www.umich.edu/~epickett/computer_racing.htm > >Click on "Please help a struggling GPL driver"... It should work for a >*couple* of days, anyway. >Some are from practice, some from races against the AI. I left my screwups in >for humor value... I'm still trying to figure out why it seems to me that I'm >barely holding on, but it doesn't look that way to anyone else who sees the >replays...<shrug> >Thanks for any suggestions. > >Eldred

Maxx wrote: > Lots of good stuff Now THAT was an interesting and informative post .. I'm keeping that and printing it out for reference. This makes me even more eager to see what the Skip Barber sim is capable of.

Barton Brown wrote:

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> > Maxx wrote: > > Lots of good stuff > > Now THAT was an interesting and informative post .. I'm keeping that and > printing it out for reference. This makes me even more eager to see what > the Skip Barber sim is capable of.

Agreed, too bad is was totally OT for this NG......hang on, no it wasn't, dang.....:-) Thx Maxx, I'll see if I can sort out my Honda at Zandy a little better now Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

Barton Brown <[email hidden]> wrote: : Maxx wrote: :> Lots of good stuff : Now THAT was an interesting and informative post .. I'm keeping that and : printing it out for reference. This makes me even more eager to see what : the Skip Barber sim is capable of. That was indeed an extremely helpful post. Without having to post one of my scrappy laps I already have some hints for improving _my_ driving. -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York UPDATED WWW: http://manor.york.ac.uk/

Barton Brown <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Maxx wrote: > > Lots of good stuff > > Now THAT was an interesting and informative post .. I'm keeping that and > printing it out for reference. This makes me even more eager to see what > the Skip Barber sim is capable of.It certainly was enlightening - Eldred, you've got no excuses now, it's all been explained. Hang on... that means I don't have any excuses now, either! Tony Whitley GPLRank +13.5 and falling...

Excellent post Malcolm, thanks. Don Scurlock Vancouver,B.C. GPLRank -5.09 Come see how you rank, at the GPLRank site http://gplrank.ringlord.com/

Pez I did the same thing in March,its exactly the same as Donington GP in Toca 2. have fun..I did..lol "pez" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8qg6bg$55i$[email hidden]... > Im supposed to be drivng a Peugeot 306 GTi and a formula ford around > donington in about a months time....what advice would you give to peoplenew

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> to motorracing there? what did you guys tell the newbies before they set > off for the first time? Is the layout anything like toca 2? > > pez -1.51 gplrank....hope itll be even lower when i trade in this p200... > > Maxx wrote in message ... > > > >Eldred, > > > >Had a spare half-hour so decided to take a look at your replays. > > > >I should say first off that as far as times go, GPLRank etc. I'm not > >far ahead of you. F1 Rank is +26.07. > > > >I really enjoyed watching the replays as. to be honest, I've only > >ever watched my own and some of the WRs. > > > >I was for many years an instructor for the Jim Russell School who > >were featured on the "Drive to Win" video. I was based at the > >UK branch at Donington Park. I got to thinking how great it would > >have been if we could have watched in-car replays of the drivers. > >We had to stand around at various points of the circuit and > >observe the drivers going through various sections, very useful > >and does give information that you couldn't get from the "cockpit > >cam" but the two would have been great. > > > >Anyway, as an instructor, we are told to "tell it like it is" so > >apologies if most of what I say is critical. > > > >I watched the replays more for style and general driving habits > >rather than for specific corners/braking points etc. I just made > >some general notes and will just reproduce them as I wrote > >them with a little expansion. I looked at Kya/Mex/Sil and Zan. > > > >1) As a general comment, first noticed at Kyl bit pretty much > >at every circuit, you seem to want to get all your braking > >done before the corner, such that, you can afford to get on > >the gas v.early in the corner and although not full accel it > >is not a "balanced throttle" either. I rarely if ever saw a moment > >where you where completely off the gas in any part of the corner > >which, when you are really on the limit CAN be a bad thing but > >you are NOT on the limit through the corner EXCEPT for the > >fact that you are accelerating which is putting you on the limit. > > > >Difficult to explain but try this an experiment, drive a circuit that > >you fel you have the braking points off pat. Brake as you > >would normally but DO NOT get back on the throttel, just > >drive through the corner on 0 gas. Now you are going to > >swap end on some corners, as you need a balanced throttle > >[EXP: balanced throttle=just enough gas to keep you at the > >speed you are travelling] > >If you do get round the corner, take on board how slow you were > >going when you finally straightened out. I would imagine pretty > >slow. Try it again and try just a very small amount of throttle, not > >enough to actually accelerate. > > > >It's impossible to give you a technique for all corners but as a > >general observation, you are going into most corner too slowly > >(except slow corner, where you generally are going a little too > >fast] > > > >What we use to teach people is to brake up until the point > >of turn in, come offthe barke and onto the gas as smoothly > >as possible and apply sufficient gas to keep a fairly constant > >speed through the corner, as you unwind the wheel you can > >apply A LITTLE more gas and when the wheel is straight you > >can apply full gas. Obviously no-one set lap records this way > >but they did develop the right style which they can then adapt > >to the various corners. > > > >2) Braking: It appears from the replay that you generally jump > >on the brakes and you can from 0 to max (and often max to > >0) in a split-second. If you (a) lift off the gas it will "unbalance" > >the car and if you (b) jump on the brakes it will imbalance the car. > >If you do (a) immediatly followed by (b) you will cause even more > >imbalance. > > > >You should try and do the following as you approach the corner. > >Ease off the gas->Apply the brake (press the brake gardually] > >as the car starst to slow, press the brake harder, ease back off > >the brake and turn-in (trail-braking is where you turn in as you still > >have some brake pressure applied) although a valuable technique > >it is not suitable for all corners, does not have a huge effct on > >lap times, needs lots of practice. > > > >Now when you first try and do the above, you WILL be slower. > >but as you do a few more laps and feel happier that you have the > >car under control in the corner you will go through corner that little > >bit quicker (as you will be entering them a little quicker). You > >should also be under more control mid-corner which will aloow you > >to be on the gas BETTER (note I didn't say sooner). No point > >being on the gas if it is pushing you wider on the exit (if you took > >the corner at max speed/best line, there woukd be no room for > >this anyway). > > > >MORE. > > > >I noticed (part silverstone) that you come off hard brakes and > >then turn in. This measn that you unbalance the car JUST at > >the point where you need MAX balance. By lifting off you > >immediatly shift balance from the front of the car (i.e. shift > >WEIGHT from the front), JUST at the point when you could do > >with it, this then leads you to sort of "lurch" into the corner very > >much like "rally" style. Almost all corner at Silverstone will > >beneit from a little trail-braking but you need to start by just > >easing off the brakes and gradually applying the balanced > >throttle. > > > >Observation: I suffer from this as well, you like to hear the > >engine constantly revving. This leads you a) to often choose > >to low a gear and b) to want to put too much throttle in a corner. > > > >CONSITENCY, well I havent seen your best laps but from the > >replays I would suggest that (SORRY) on the whole they were > >just lucky. I refer specifically to Zanvoort where I don't think > >there is any part of the circuit where you are really in full > >control of the car and the best lap of 1:28.20 was a couple > >of seconds quicker than most of the rest and you were just > >lucky that the car decided to go through the corners right on > >that particular lap. > > > >Now, of course, many WRs have that element of luck, but we > >are not talking WRs here. You'll notice on some of the WR > >replays that the other laps shown (in some progs it shows other > >laptimes) that they are often wildly different from the fast lap. > >Thats because these guys are on the very limit and to get > >there you HAVE to take chances. > > > >Now, I'm not just talking lap times, certainly at Zandy you > >rarely seem to change gear in the same place twice, often > >using different gears (i.e. hairpin sometimes 1st, others 2nd) > > > >LINE: Agruably the most important single factor, certainly if > >you don't use the "right" line, no matter how good you can > >brake, trail-brake, accellerate etc. etc. you are not going to > >get near top times. > > > >I booked into GPLRank at about +122, came down pretty > >fast to about +50 as I was still leaarning the circuits and getting > >used to the car. Moving from +50 to +26 I would say has been > >more to do with getting better lines than anything else. > > > >In general you do not use the full width of the circuit on > >entry into corner and on the exit. Not on all but quite a lot, > >particularly silverstone. If you every examine a top laps > >against your own you will see that the top laps car uses all of > >the circuit and chooses the optimum line through any given corner, > >if you are not on the same line you are likely to be losing time even > >before you start looking at braking points etc. > > > >I've recently done the fuill 11 circuits in F2s then in F3 (pretty > >much skipped these early on). I really would suggest you put a > >few hours aside, run the F3s and concentrate on LINE. You dont > >have to worry so much about wheelspin and controlling instability > >as the F3s are much gentler. My times (Maxx F3) are on GPLRank. > >They aren't brilliant as I only spent 5-6 hours on the whole 11 > >circuits but you should be able to get pretty close. > > > >I would probably pick a couple of tracks to work on. I'd suggest > >Zandy and Silverstone as they are so different. Stick to one car > >(I find the Brabham a great little F3 car). > > > >You absolutely must have a good line for F3 as there is no room > >real opportunity to later line mid-corner with the throttle. > > > >Question: Do you use FF, if so you MAY have it a little strong, > >whilst this gives you more of a feeling it does tend to make > >you react to feel rather than sight. And often that FEEL is just > >a little out of synch with what is actually happening with the > >car. > > > >OK, the rough stuffs over with now, always save the compliment > >till laste so they don't pee in your beer later that evening (a well > >known chief instructors saying). > > > >You DO have good car control, the BAD habits you have mean > >that this skill has been honed to a high degree so this will stand > >you in good stead when you get faster and faster which I am > >convinced you will. > > > >I really hope the above helps, it's advice that even I find difficult > >to follow as deeply ingrained habits are hard to overcome and > >often you just cannot see them in your own driving. > > > >Oh, one final point, don't try and emulate the Huttu's of this > >world, or try and struggle with their setups, they have fine > >tuned their skill and setups over a long period of time and have > >likely had to master the above before moving on. > > > >They are good to watch for their lines but forget trying to brake as > >last as them, or wondering how they carry that speed through that > >corner. I also recal you didn't get anything from track guides. I > >don't either much as they tend to make you THINK too much about > >every braking point, gear change etc. There are so many slightly > >differrent styles that we cannot fit into someone else, but the basics > >remain the same. The one time I do find them useful is, if I know > >that I am really poor at a particlar corner/section, they may just > >me some insight. > > > >Best of Luck. > > > >Maxx > > > >GPLrank > >F1 Malcolm Edeson + 26.07 > >F2 Maxx F2 +121.86 > >F3 Maxx F3 +315.42 > > > > > >On 20 Sep 2000 23:03:20 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: > > > >>Someone(Andre, I think) suggested posting some laps where I wasn't

*quite*

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> so > >>in control. The theory being, people could see what I was doing wrong > easier, > >>and could suggest ways not to do it.<g> Well... > >>http://www.umich.edu/~epickett/computer_racing.htm > >> > >>Click on "Please help a struggling GPL driver"... It should work for a > >>*couple* of days, anyway. > >>Some are from practice, some from races against the AI. I left my > screwups in > >>for humor value... I'm still trying to figure out why it seems to me

that

Quoted text (10 lines)

> I'm > >>barely holding on, but it doesn't look that way to anyone else who sees > the > >>replays...<shrug> > >>Thanks for any suggestions. > >> > >>Eldred > > > >

You are correct..the bump is somewhat smooth..lol BTW..I did lose it..!! and ploughed off the track into the grass area...got a little(BIGGGG) warning... Never forget it..plus i am taking my car to the Open Track Day....you fancy that..? Where are you ,I am 20 mins from circuit "pez" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8qggsn$ih4$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (8 lines)

> what about the bump after the old hairpin? i was looking at some incar > video from the btcc and it looks like its not there now...? > > pez > tesstuff wrote in message ... > >Pez > > > >I did the same thing in March,its exactly the same as Donington GP in

Toca

Quoted text (9 lines)

> >2. > > > >have fun..I did..lol > > > > > >"pez" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:8qg6bg$55i$[email hidden]... > >> Im supposed to be drivng a Peugeot 306 GTi and a formula ford around > >> donington in about a months time....what advice would you give to

people > >new > >> to motorracing there? what did you guys tell the newbies before theyset > >> off for the first time? Is the layout anything like toca 2? > >> > >> pez -1.51 gplrank....hope itll be even lower when i trade in thisp200...

Quoted text (211 lines)

> >> > >> Maxx wrote in message ... > >> > > >> >Eldred, > >> > > >> >Had a spare half-hour so decided to take a look at your replays. > >> > > >> >I should say first off that as far as times go, GPLRank etc. I'm not > >> >far ahead of you. F1 Rank is +26.07. > >> > > >> >I really enjoyed watching the replays as. to be honest, I've only > >> >ever watched my own and some of the WRs. > >> > > >> >I was for many years an instructor for the Jim Russell School who > >> >were featured on the "Drive to Win" video. I was based at the > >> >UK branch at Donington Park. I got to thinking how great it would > >> >have been if we could have watched in-car replays of the drivers. > >> >We had to stand around at various points of the circuit and > >> >observe the drivers going through various sections, very useful > >> >and does give information that you couldn't get from the "cockpit > >> >cam" but the two would have been great. > >> > > >> >Anyway, as an instructor, we are told to "tell it like it is" so > >> >apologies if most of what I say is critical. > >> > > >> >I watched the replays more for style and general driving habits > >> >rather than for specific corners/braking points etc. I just made > >> >some general notes and will just reproduce them as I wrote > >> >them with a little expansion. I looked at Kya/Mex/Sil and Zan. > >> > > >> >1) As a general comment, first noticed at Kyl bit pretty much > >> >at every circuit, you seem to want to get all your braking > >> >done before the corner, such that, you can afford to get on > >> >the gas v.early in the corner and although not full accel it > >> >is not a "balanced throttle" either. I rarely if ever saw a moment > >> >where you where completely off the gas in any part of the corner > >> >which, when you are really on the limit CAN be a bad thing but > >> >you are NOT on the limit through the corner EXCEPT for the > >> >fact that you are accelerating which is putting you on the limit. > >> > > >> >Difficult to explain but try this an experiment, drive a circuit that > >> >you fel you have the braking points off pat. Brake as you > >> >would normally but DO NOT get back on the throttel, just > >> >drive through the corner on 0 gas. Now you are going to > >> >swap end on some corners, as you need a balanced throttle > >> >[EXP: balanced throttle=just enough gas to keep you at the > >> >speed you are travelling] > >> >If you do get round the corner, take on board how slow you were > >> >going when you finally straightened out. I would imagine pretty > >> >slow. Try it again and try just a very small amount of throttle, not > >> >enough to actually accelerate. > >> > > >> >It's impossible to give you a technique for all corners but as a > >> >general observation, you are going into most corner too slowly > >> >(except slow corner, where you generally are going a little too > >> >fast] > >> > > >> >What we use to teach people is to brake up until the point > >> >of turn in, come offthe barke and onto the gas as smoothly > >> >as possible and apply sufficient gas to keep a fairly constant > >> >speed through the corner, as you unwind the wheel you can > >> >apply A LITTLE more gas and when the wheel is straight you > >> >can apply full gas. Obviously no-one set lap records this way > >> >but they did develop the right style which they can then adapt > >> >to the various corners. > >> > > >> >2) Braking: It appears from the replay that you generally jump > >> >on the brakes and you can from 0 to max (and often max to > >> >0) in a split-second. If you (a) lift off the gas it will "unbalance" > >> >the car and if you (b) jump on the brakes it will imbalance the car. > >> >If you do (a) immediatly followed by (b) you will cause even more > >> >imbalance. > >> > > >> >You should try and do the following as you approach the corner. > >> >Ease off the gas->Apply the brake (press the brake gardually] > >> >as the car starst to slow, press the brake harder, ease back off > >> >the brake and turn-in (trail-braking is where you turn in as you still > >> >have some brake pressure applied) although a valuable technique > >> >it is not suitable for all corners, does not have a huge effct on > >> >lap times, needs lots of practice. > >> > > >> >Now when you first try and do the above, you WILL be slower. > >> >but as you do a few more laps and feel happier that you have the > >> >car under control in the corner you will go through corner that little > >> >bit quicker (as you will be entering them a little quicker). You > >> >should also be under more control mid-corner which will aloow you > >> >to be on the gas BETTER (note I didn't say sooner). No point > >> >being on the gas if it is pushing you wider on the exit (if you took > >> >the corner at max speed/best line, there woukd be no room for > >> >this anyway). > >> > > >> >MORE. > >> > > >> >I noticed (part silverstone) that you come off hard brakes and > >> >then turn in. This measn that you unbalance the car JUST at > >> >the point where you need MAX balance. By lifting off you > >> >immediatly shift balance from the front of the car (i.e. shift > >> >WEIGHT from the front), JUST at the point when you could do > >> >with it, this then leads you to sort of "lurch" into the corner very > >> >much like "rally" style. Almost all corner at Silverstone will > >> >beneit from a little trail-braking but you need to start by just > >> >easing off the brakes and gradually applying the balanced > >> >throttle. > >> > > >> >Observation: I suffer from this as well, you like to hear the > >> >engine constantly revving. This leads you a) to often choose > >> >to low a gear and b) to want to put too much throttle in a corner. > >> > > >> >CONSITENCY, well I havent seen your best laps but from the > >> >replays I would suggest that (SORRY) on the whole they were > >> >just lucky. I refer specifically to Zanvoort where I don't think > >> >there is any part of the circuit where you are really in full > >> >control of the car and the best lap of 1:28.20 was a couple > >> >of seconds quicker than most of the rest and you were just > >> >lucky that the car decided to go through the corners right on > >> >that particular lap. > >> > > >> >Now, of course, many WRs have that element of luck, but we > >> >are not talking WRs here. You'll notice on some of the WR > >> >replays that the other laps shown (in some progs it shows other > >> >laptimes) that they are often wildly different from the fast lap. > >> >Thats because these guys are on the very limit and to get > >> >there you HAVE to take chances. > >> > > >> >Now, I'm not just talking lap times, certainly at Zandy you > >> >rarely seem to change gear in the same place twice, often > >> >using different gears (i.e. hairpin sometimes 1st, others 2nd) > >> > > >> >LINE: Agruably the most important single factor, certainly if > >> >you don't use the "right" line, no matter how good you can > >> >brake, trail-brake, accellerate etc. etc. you are not going to > >> >get near top times. > >> > > >> >I booked into GPLRank at about +122, came down pretty > >> >fast to about +50 as I was still leaarning the circuits and getting > >> >used to the car. Moving from +50 to +26 I would say has been > >> >more to do with getting better lines than anything else. > >> > > >> >In general you do not use the full width of the circuit on > >> >entry into corner and on the exit. Not on all but quite a lot, > >> >particularly silverstone. If you every examine a top laps > >> >against your own you will see that the top laps car uses all of > >> >the circuit and chooses the optimum line through any given corner, > >> >if you are not on the same line you are likely to be losing time even > >> >before you start looking at braking points etc. > >> > > >> >I've recently done the fuill 11 circuits in F2s then in F3 (pretty > >> >much skipped these early on). I really would suggest you put a > >> >few hours aside, run the F3s and concentrate on LINE. You dont > >> >have to worry so much about wheelspin and controlling instability > >> >as the F3s are much gentler. My times (Maxx F3) are on GPLRank. > >> >They aren't brilliant as I only spent 5-6 hours on the whole 11 > >> >circuits but you should be able to get pretty close. > >> > > >> >I would probably pick a couple of tracks to work on. I'd suggest > >> >Zandy and Silverstone as they are so different. Stick to one car > >> >(I find the Brabham a great little F3 car). > >> > > >> >You absolutely must have a good line for F3 as there is no room > >> >real opportunity to later line mid-corner with the throttle. > >> > > >> >Question: Do you use FF, if so you MAY have it a little strong, > >> >whilst this gives you more of a feeling it does tend to make > >> >you react to feel rather than sight. And often that FEEL is just > >> >a little out of synch with what is actually happening with the > >> >car. > >> > > >> >OK, the rough stuffs over with now, always save the compliment > >> >till laste so they don't pee in your beer later that evening (a well > >> >known chief instructors saying). > >> > > >> >You DO have good car control, the BAD habits you have mean > >> >that this skill has been honed to a high degree so this will stand > >> >you in good stead when you get faster and faster which I am > >> >convinced you will. > >> > > >> >I really hope the above helps, it's advice that even I find difficult > >> >to follow as deeply ingrained habits are hard to overcome and > >> >often you just cannot see them in your own driving. > >> > > >> >Oh, one final point, don't try and emulate the Huttu's of this > >> >world, or try and struggle with their setups, they have fine > >> >tuned their skill and setups over a long period of time and have > >> >likely had to master the above before moving on. > >> > > >> >They are good to watch for their lines but forget trying to brake as > >> >last as them, or wondering how they carry that speed through that > >> >corner. I also recal you didn't get anything from track guides. I > >> >don't either much as they tend to make you THINK too much about > >> >every braking point, gear change etc. There are so many slightly > >> >differrent styles that we cannot fit into someone else, but the basics > >> >remain the same. The one time I do find them useful is, if I know > >> >that I am really poor at a particlar corner/section, they may just > >> >me some insight. > >> > > >> >Best of Luck. > >> > > >> >Maxx > >> > > >> >GPLrank > >> >F1 Malcolm Edeson + 26.07 > >> >F2 Maxx F2 +121.86 > >> >F3 Maxx F3 +315.42 > >> > > >> > > >> >On 20 Sep 2000 23:03:20 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: > >> > > >> >>Someone(Andre, I think) suggested posting some laps where I wasn't > >*quite* > >> so > >> >>in control. The theory being, people could see what I was doing

wrong > >> easier, > >> >>and could suggest ways not to do it.<g> Well... > >> >>http://www.umich.edu/~epickett/computer_racing.htm > >> >> > >> >>Click on "Please help a struggling GPL driver"... It should work fora

Quoted text (7 lines)

> >> >>*couple* of days, anyway. > >> >>Some are from practice, some from races against the AI. I left my > >> screwups in > >> >>for humor value... I'm still trying to figure out why it seems to me > >that > >> I'm > >> >>barely holding on, but it doesn't look that way to anyone else who

sees

Quoted text (12 lines)

> >> the > >> >>replays...<shrug> > >> >>Thanks for any suggestions. > >> >> > >> >>Eldred > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > >

I noticed, though, the dunlop straight is nowhere near as long IRL..also, the times posted by the real life BTCC guys were WAY slower than in T2.... -- Colin Harris Bomber Racing: Http://fullspeed.to/Bomber ICQ 25485061 tesstuff <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:KIOy5.3751$[email hidden]... > Pez > > I did the same thing in March,its exactly the same as Donington GP in Toca > 2. > > have fun..I did..lol > > > "pez" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8qg6bg$55i$[email hidden]... > > Im supposed to be drivng a Peugeot 306 GTi and a formula ford around > > donington in about a months time....what advice would you give to people > new > > to motorracing there? what did you guys tell the newbies before they set > > off for the first time? Is the layout anything like toca 2? > > > > pez -1.51 gplrank....hope itll be even lower when i trade in this p200... > > > > Maxx wrote in message ... > > > > > >Eldred, > > > > > >Had a spare half-hour so decided to take a look at your replays. > > > > > >I should say first off that as far as times go, GPLRank etc. I'm not > > >far ahead of you. F1 Rank is +26.07. > > > > > >I really enjoyed watching the replays as. to be honest, I've only > > >ever watched my own and some of the WRs. > > > > > >I was for many years an instructor for the Jim Russell School who > > >were featured on the "Drive to Win" video. I was based at the > > >UK branch at Donington Park. I got to thinking how great it would > > >have been if we could have watched in-car replays of the drivers. > > >We had to stand around at various points of the circuit and > > >observe the drivers going through various sections, very useful > > >and does give information that you couldn't get from the "cockpit > > >cam" but the two would have been great. > > > > > >Anyway, as an instructor, we are told to "tell it like it is" so > > >apologies if most of what I say is critical. > > > > > >I watched the replays more for style and general driving habits > > >rather than for specific corners/braking points etc. I just made > > >some general notes and will just reproduce them as I wrote > > >them with a little expansion. I looked at Kya/Mex/Sil and Zan. > > > > > >1) As a general comment, first noticed at Kyl bit pretty much > > >at every circuit, you seem to want to get all your braking > > >done before the corner, such that, you can afford to get on > > >the gas v.early in the corner and although not full accel it > > >is not a "balanced throttle" either. I rarely if ever saw a moment > > >where you where completely off the gas in any part of the corner > > >which, when you are really on the limit CAN be a bad thing but > > >you are NOT on the limit through the corner EXCEPT for the > > >fact that you are accelerating which is putting you on the limit. > > > > > >Difficult to explain but try this an experiment, drive a circuit that > > >you fel you have the braking points off pat. Brake as you > > >would normally but DO NOT get back on the throttel, just > > >drive through the corner on 0 gas. Now you are going to > > >swap end on some corners, as you need a balanced throttle > > >[EXP: balanced throttle=just enough gas to keep you at the > > >speed you are travelling] > > >If you do get round the corner, take on board how slow you were > > >going when you finally straightened out. I would imagine pretty > > >slow. Try it again and try just a very small amount of throttle, not > > >enough to actually accelerate. > > > > > >It's impossible to give you a technique for all corners but as a > > >general observation, you are going into most corner too slowly > > >(except slow corner, where you generally are going a little too > > >fast] > > > > > >What we use to teach people is to brake up until the point > > >of turn in, come offthe barke and onto the gas as smoothly > > >as possible and apply sufficient gas to keep a fairly constant > > >speed through the corner, as you unwind the wheel you can > > >apply A LITTLE more gas and when the wheel is straight you > > >can apply full gas. Obviously no-one set lap records this way > > >but they did develop the right style which they can then adapt > > >to the various corners. > > > > > >2) Braking: It appears from the replay that you generally jump > > >on the brakes and you can from 0 to max (and often max to > > >0) in a split-second. If you (a) lift off the gas it will "unbalance" > > >the car and if you (b) jump on the brakes it will imbalance the car. > > >If you do (a) immediatly followed by (b) you will cause even more > > >imbalance. > > > > > >You should try and do the following as you approach the corner. > > >Ease off the gas->Apply the brake (press the brake gardually] > > >as the car starst to slow, press the brake harder, ease back off > > >the brake and turn-in (trail-braking is where you turn in as you still > > >have some brake pressure applied) although a valuable technique > > >it is not suitable for all corners, does not have a huge effct on > > >lap times, needs lots of practice. > > > > > >Now when you first try and do the above, you WILL be slower. > > >but as you do a few more laps and feel happier that you have the > > >car under control in the corner you will go through corner that little > > >bit quicker (as you will be entering them a little quicker). You > > >should also be under more control mid-corner which will aloow you > > >to be on the gas BETTER (note I didn't say sooner). No point > > >being on the gas if it is pushing you wider on the exit (if you took > > >the corner at max speed/best line, there woukd be no room for > > >this anyway). > > > > > >MORE. > > > > > >I noticed (part silverstone) that you come off hard brakes and > > >then turn in. This measn that you unbalance the car JUST at > > >the point where you need MAX balance. By lifting off you > > >immediatly shift balance from the front of the car (i.e. shift > > >WEIGHT from the front), JUST at the point when you could do > > >with it, this then leads you to sort of "lurch" into the corner very > > >much like "rally" style. Almost all corner at Silverstone will > > >beneit from a little trail-braking but you need to start by just > > >easing off the brakes and gradually applying the balanced > > >throttle. > > > > > >Observation: I suffer from this as well, you like to hear the > > >engine constantly revving. This leads you a) to often choose > > >to low a gear and b) to want to put too much throttle in a corner. > > > > > >CONSITENCY, well I havent seen your best laps but from the > > >replays I would suggest that (SORRY) on the whole they were > > >just lucky. I refer specifically to Zanvoort where I don't think > > >there is any part of the circuit where you are really in full > > >control of the car and the best lap of 1:28.20 was a couple > > >of seconds quicker than most of the rest and you were just > > >lucky that the car decided to go through the corners right on > > >that particular lap. > > > > > >Now, of course, many WRs have that element of luck, but we > > >are not talking WRs here. You'll notice on some of the WR > > >replays that the other laps shown (in some progs it shows other > > >laptimes) that they are often wildly different from the fast lap. > > >Thats because these guys are on the very limit and to get > > >there you HAVE to take chances. > > > > > >Now, I'm not just talking lap times, certainly at Zandy you > > >rarely seem to change gear in the same place twice, often > > >using different gears (i.e. hairpin sometimes 1st, others 2nd) > > > > > >LINE: Agruably the most important single factor, certainly if > > >you don't use the "right" line, no matter how good you can > > >brake, trail-brake, accellerate etc. etc. you are not going to > > >get near top times. > > > > > >I booked into GPLRank at about +122, came down pretty > > >fast to about +50 as I was still leaarning the circuits and getting > > >used to the car. Moving from +50 to +26 I would say has been > > >more to do with getting better lines than anything else. > > > > > >In general you do not use the full width of the circuit on > > >entry into corner and on the exit. Not on all but quite a lot, > > >particularly silverstone. If you every examine a top laps > > >against your own you will see that the top laps car uses all of > > >the circuit and chooses the optimum line through any given corner, > > >if you are not on the same line you are likely to be losing time even > > >before you start looking at braking points etc. > > > > > >I've recently done the fuill 11 circuits in F2s then in F3 (pretty > > >much skipped these early on). I really would suggest you put a > > >few hours aside, run the F3s and concentrate on LINE. You dont > > >have to worry so much about wheelspin and controlling instability > > >as the F3s are much gentler. My times (Maxx F3) are on GPLRank. > > >They aren't brilliant as I only spent 5-6 hours on the whole 11 > > >circuits but you should be able to get pretty close. > > > > > >I would probably pick a couple of tracks to work on. I'd suggest > > >Zandy and Silverstone as they are so different. Stick to one car > > >(I find the Brabham a great little F3 car). > > > > > >You absolutely must have a good line for F3 as there is no room > > >real opportunity to later line mid-corner with the throttle. > > > > > >Question: Do you use FF, if so you MAY have it a little strong, > > >whilst this gives you more of a feeling it does tend to make > > >you react to feel rather than sight. And often that FEEL is just > > >a little out of synch with what is actually happening with the > > >car. > > > > > >OK, the rough stuffs over with now, always save the compliment > > >till laste so they don't pee in your beer later that evening (a well > > >known chief instructors saying). > > > > > >You DO have good car control, the BAD habits you have mean > > >that this skill has been honed to a high degree so this will stand > > >you in good stead when you get faster and faster which I am > > >convinced you will. > > > > > >I really hope the above helps, it's advice that even I find difficult > > >to follow as deeply ingrained habits are hard to overcome and > > >often you just cannot see them in your own driving. > > > > > >Oh, one final point, don't try and emulate the Huttu's of this > > >world, or try and struggle with their setups, they have fine > > >tuned their skill and setups over a long period of time and have > > >likely had to master the above before moving on. > > > > > >They are good to watch for their lines but forget trying to brake as > > >last as them, or wondering how they carry that speed through that > > >corner. I also recal you didn't get anything from track guides. I > > >don't either much as they tend to make you THINK too much about > > >every braking point, gear change etc. There are so many slightly > > >differrent styles that we cannot fit into someone else, but the basics > > >remain the same. The one time I do find them useful is, if I know > > >that I am really poor at a particlar corner/section, they may just > > >me some insight. > > > > > >Best of Luck. > > > > > >Maxx > > > > > >GPLrank > > >F1 Malcolm Edeson + 26.07 > > >F2 Maxx F2 +121.86 > > >F3 Maxx F3 +315.42 > > > > > > > > >On 20 Sep 2000 23:03:20 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: > > > > > >>Someone(Andre, I think) suggested posting some laps where I wasn't > *quite* > > so > > >>in control. The theory being, people could see what I was doing wrong > > easier, > > >>and could suggest ways not to do it.<g> Well... > > >>http://www.umich.edu/~epickett/computer_racing.htm > > >> > > >>Click on "Please help a struggling GPL driver"... It should work for a > > >>*couple* of days, anyway. > > >>Some are from practice, some from races against the AI. I left my > > screwups in > > >>for humor value... I'm still trying to figure out why it seems to me > that > > I'm > > >>barely holding on, but it doesn't look that way to anyone else who sees > > the > > >>replays...<shrug> > > >>Thanks for any suggestions. > > >> > > >>Eldred > > > > > > > > >

I would suggest the Toca 2 top speed of 151 is alot more(11mph) than the real BTCC... This would certainly account for some/alot of the time difference "Colin Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:noQy5.15967$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (15 lines)

> I noticed, though, the dunlop straight is nowhere near as long IRL..also, > the times posted by the real life BTCC guys were WAY slower than in T2.... > > -- > > > Colin Harris > > Bomber Racing: Http://fullspeed.to/Bomber > ICQ 25485061 > tesstuff <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:KIOy5.3751$[email hidden]... > > Pez > > > > I did the same thing in March,its exactly the same as Donington GP in

Toca

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > 2. > > > > have fun..I did..lol > > > > > > "pez" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:8qg6bg$55i$[email hidden]... > > > Im supposed to be drivng a Peugeot 306 GTi and a formula ford around > > > donington in about a months time....what advice would you give to

people

Quoted text (84 lines)

> > new > > > to motorracing there? what did you guys tell the newbies before they > set > > > off for the first time? Is the layout anything like toca 2? > > > > > > pez -1.51 gplrank....hope itll be even lower when i trade in this > p200... > > > > > > Maxx wrote in message ... > > > > > > > >Eldred, > > > > > > > >Had a spare half-hour so decided to take a look at your replays. > > > > > > > >I should say first off that as far as times go, GPLRank etc. I'm not > > > >far ahead of you. F1 Rank is +26.07. > > > > > > > >I really enjoyed watching the replays as. to be honest, I've only > > > >ever watched my own and some of the WRs. > > > > > > > >I was for many years an instructor for the Jim Russell School who > > > >were featured on the "Drive to Win" video. I was based at the > > > >UK branch at Donington Park. I got to thinking how great it would > > > >have been if we could have watched in-car replays of the drivers. > > > >We had to stand around at various points of the circuit and > > > >observe the drivers going through various sections, very useful > > > >and does give information that you couldn't get from the "cockpit > > > >cam" but the two would have been great. > > > > > > > >Anyway, as an instructor, we are told to "tell it like it is" so > > > >apologies if most of what I say is critical. > > > > > > > >I watched the replays more for style and general driving habits > > > >rather than for specific corners/braking points etc. I just made > > > >some general notes and will just reproduce them as I wrote > > > >them with a little expansion. I looked at Kya/Mex/Sil and Zan. > > > > > > > >1) As a general comment, first noticed at Kyl bit pretty much > > > >at every circuit, you seem to want to get all your braking > > > >done before the corner, such that, you can afford to get on > > > >the gas v.early in the corner and although not full accel it > > > >is not a "balanced throttle" either. I rarely if ever saw a moment > > > >where you where completely off the gas in any part of the corner > > > >which, when you are really on the limit CAN be a bad thing but > > > >you are NOT on the limit through the corner EXCEPT for the > > > >fact that you are accelerating which is putting you on the limit. > > > > > > > >Difficult to explain but try this an experiment, drive a circuit that > > > >you fel you have the braking points off pat. Brake as you > > > >would normally but DO NOT get back on the throttel, just > > > >drive through the corner on 0 gas. Now you are going to > > > >swap end on some corners, as you need a balanced throttle > > > >[EXP: balanced throttle=just enough gas to keep you at the > > > >speed you are travelling] > > > >If you do get round the corner, take on board how slow you were > > > >going when you finally straightened out. I would imagine pretty > > > >slow. Try it again and try just a very small amount of throttle, not > > > >enough to actually accelerate. > > > > > > > >It's impossible to give you a technique for all corners but as a > > > >general observation, you are going into most corner too slowly > > > >(except slow corner, where you generally are going a little too > > > >fast] > > > > > > > >What we use to teach people is to brake up until the point > > > >of turn in, come offthe barke and onto the gas as smoothly > > > >as possible and apply sufficient gas to keep a fairly constant > > > >speed through the corner, as you unwind the wheel you can > > > >apply A LITTLE more gas and when the wheel is straight you > > > >can apply full gas. Obviously no-one set lap records this way > > > >but they did develop the right style which they can then adapt > > > >to the various corners. > > > > > > > >2) Braking: It appears from the replay that you generally jump > > > >on the brakes and you can from 0 to max (and often max to > > > >0) in a split-second. If you (a) lift off the gas it will "unbalance" > > > >the car and if you (b) jump on the brakes it will imbalance the car. > > > >If you do (a) immediatly followed by (b) you will cause even more > > > >imbalance. > > > > > > > >You should try and do the following as you approach the corner. > > > >Ease off the gas->Apply the brake (press the brake gardually] > > > >as the car starst to slow, press the brake harder, ease back off > > > >the brake and turn-in (trail-braking is where you turn in as you

still

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > > >have some brake pressure applied) although a valuable technique > > > >it is not suitable for all corners, does not have a huge effct on > > > >lap times, needs lots of practice. > > > > > > > >Now when you first try and do the above, you WILL be slower. > > > >but as you do a few more laps and feel happier that you have the > > > >car under control in the corner you will go through corner that

little

Quoted text (107 lines)

> > > >bit quicker (as you will be entering them a little quicker). You > > > >should also be under more control mid-corner which will aloow you > > > >to be on the gas BETTER (note I didn't say sooner). No point > > > >being on the gas if it is pushing you wider on the exit (if you took > > > >the corner at max speed/best line, there woukd be no room for > > > >this anyway). > > > > > > > >MORE. > > > > > > > >I noticed (part silverstone) that you come off hard brakes and > > > >then turn in. This measn that you unbalance the car JUST at > > > >the point where you need MAX balance. By lifting off you > > > >immediatly shift balance from the front of the car (i.e. shift > > > >WEIGHT from the front), JUST at the point when you could do > > > >with it, this then leads you to sort of "lurch" into the corner very > > > >much like "rally" style. Almost all corner at Silverstone will > > > >beneit from a little trail-braking but you need to start by just > > > >easing off the brakes and gradually applying the balanced > > > >throttle. > > > > > > > >Observation: I suffer from this as well, you like to hear the > > > >engine constantly revving. This leads you a) to often choose > > > >to low a gear and b) to want to put too much throttle in a corner. > > > > > > > >CONSITENCY, well I havent seen your best laps but from the > > > >replays I would suggest that (SORRY) on the whole they were > > > >just lucky. I refer specifically to Zanvoort where I don't think > > > >there is any part of the circuit where you are really in full > > > >control of the car and the best lap of 1:28.20 was a couple > > > >of seconds quicker than most of the rest and you were just > > > >lucky that the car decided to go through the corners right on > > > >that particular lap. > > > > > > > >Now, of course, many WRs have that element of luck, but we > > > >are not talking WRs here. You'll notice on some of the WR > > > >replays that the other laps shown (in some progs it shows other > > > >laptimes) that they are often wildly different from the fast lap. > > > >Thats because these guys are on the very limit and to get > > > >there you HAVE to take chances. > > > > > > > >Now, I'm not just talking lap times, certainly at Zandy you > > > >rarely seem to change gear in the same place twice, often > > > >using different gears (i.e. hairpin sometimes 1st, others 2nd) > > > > > > > >LINE: Agruably the most important single factor, certainly if > > > >you don't use the "right" line, no matter how good you can > > > >brake, trail-brake, accellerate etc. etc. you are not going to > > > >get near top times. > > > > > > > >I booked into GPLRank at about +122, came down pretty > > > >fast to about +50 as I was still leaarning the circuits and getting > > > >used to the car. Moving from +50 to +26 I would say has been > > > >more to do with getting better lines than anything else. > > > > > > > >In general you do not use the full width of the circuit on > > > >entry into corner and on the exit. Not on all but quite a lot, > > > >particularly silverstone. If you every examine a top laps > > > >against your own you will see that the top laps car uses all of > > > >the circuit and chooses the optimum line through any given corner, > > > >if you are not on the same line you are likely to be losing time even > > > >before you start looking at braking points etc. > > > > > > > >I've recently done the fuill 11 circuits in F2s then in F3 (pretty > > > >much skipped these early on). I really would suggest you put a > > > >few hours aside, run the F3s and concentrate on LINE. You dont > > > >have to worry so much about wheelspin and controlling instability > > > >as the F3s are much gentler. My times (Maxx F3) are on GPLRank. > > > >They aren't brilliant as I only spent 5-6 hours on the whole 11 > > > >circuits but you should be able to get pretty close. > > > > > > > >I would probably pick a couple of tracks to work on. I'd suggest > > > >Zandy and Silverstone as they are so different. Stick to one car > > > >(I find the Brabham a great little F3 car). > > > > > > > >You absolutely must have a good line for F3 as there is no room > > > >real opportunity to later line mid-corner with the throttle. > > > > > > > >Question: Do you use FF, if so you MAY have it a little strong, > > > >whilst this gives you more of a feeling it does tend to make > > > >you react to feel rather than sight. And often that FEEL is just > > > >a little out of synch with what is actually happening with the > > > >car. > > > > > > > >OK, the rough stuffs over with now, always save the compliment > > > >till laste so they don't pee in your beer later that evening (a well > > > >known chief instructors saying). > > > > > > > >You DO have good car control, the BAD habits you have mean > > > >that this skill has been honed to a high degree so this will stand > > > >you in good stead when you get faster and faster which I am > > > >convinced you will. > > > > > > > >I really hope the above helps, it's advice that even I find difficult > > > >to follow as deeply ingrained habits are hard to overcome and > > > >often you just cannot see them in your own driving. > > > > > > > >Oh, one final point, don't try and emulate the Huttu's of this > > > >world, or try and struggle with their setups, they have fine > > > >tuned their skill and setups over a long period of time and have > > > >likely had to master the above before moving on. > > > > > > > >They are good to watch for their lines but forget trying to brake as > > > >last as them, or wondering how they carry that speed through that > > > >corner. I also recal you didn't get anything from track guides. I > > > >don't either much as they tend to make you THINK too much about > > > >every braking point, gear change etc. There are so many slightly > > > >differrent styles that we cannot fit into someone else, but the

basics

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> > > >remain the same. The one time I do find them useful is, if I know > > > >that I am really poor at a particlar corner/section, they may just > > > >me some insight. > > > > > > > >Best of Luck. > > > > > > > >Maxx > > > > > > > >GPLrank > > > >F1 Malcolm Edeson + 26.07 > > > >F2 Maxx F2 +121.86 > > > >F3 Maxx F3 +315.42 > > > > > > > > > > > >On 20 Sep 2000 23:03:20 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: > > > > > > > >>Someone(Andre, I think) suggested posting some laps where I wasn't > > *quite* > > > so > > > >>in control. The theory being, people could see what I was doing

wrong > > > easier, > > > >>and could suggest ways not to do it.<g> Well... > > > >>http://www.umich.edu/~epickett/computer_racing.htm > > > >> > > > >>Click on "Please help a struggling GPL driver"... It should workfor > a > > > >>*couple* of days, anyway. > > > >>Some are from practice, some from races against the AI. I left my > > > screwups in > > > >>for humor value... I'm still trying to figure out why it seems tome

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> > that > > > I'm > > > >>barely holding on, but it doesn't look that way to anyone else who > sees > > > the > > > >>replays...<shrug> > > > >>Thanks for any suggestions. > > > >> > > > >>Eldred > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Maxx wrote...

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> > <loadsa good stuff> > > GPLrank > <snipped presentable F1 rank> > F2 Maxx F2 +121.86 > F3 Maxx F3 +315.42

Brabham peewee alert!! ;-)) Jan. =---

In article <[email hidden]>, Maxx <[email hidden]> writes: >Eldred, > >Had a spare half-hour so decided to take a look at your replays. >Whoa - you came up with all this in a half hour?!? I'm impressed, sir... :) > >Anyway, as an instructor, we are told to "tell it like it is" so >apologies if most of what I say is critical. No problem - I asked for it, remember?

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> >I watched the replays more for style and general driving habits >rather than for specific corners/braking points etc. I just made >some general notes and will just reproduce them as I wrote >them with a little expansion. I looked at Kya/Mex/Sil and Zan. > >1) As a general comment, first noticed at Kyl bit pretty much >at every circuit, you seem to want to get all your braking >done before the corner, such that, you can afford to get on >the gas v.early in the corner and although not full accel it >is not a "balanced throttle" either. I rarely if ever saw a moment >where you where completely off the gas in any part of the corner >which, when you are really on the limit CAN be a bad thing but >you are NOT on the limit through the corner EXCEPT for the >fact that you are accelerating which is putting you on the limit.

I do all my braking first because the car wants to spin out if I'm on the brakes in the turn. For the throttle, I thought we were *supposed* to get back on the throttle early...? > >Difficult to explain but try this an experiment, drive a circuit that >you fel you have the braking points off pat. I'll try that experiment, thanks.

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> >2) Braking: It appears from the replay that you generally jump >on the brakes and you can from 0 to max (and often max to >0) in a split-second. If you (a) lift off the gas it will "unbalance" >the car and if you (b) jump on the brakes it will imbalance the car. >If you do (a) immediatly followed by (b) you will cause even more >imbalance. >

I've been doing it for years. Phoenix gave me HELL in Nascar2...that 'Rally' effect, as you called it...<g>

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>You should try and do the following as you approach the corner. >Ease off the gas->Apply the brake (press the brake gardually] >as the car starst to slow, press the brake harder, ease back off >the brake and turn-in (trail-braking is where you turn in as you still >have some brake pressure applied) although a valuable technique >it is not suitable for all corners, does not have a huge effct on >lap times, needs lots of practice.

So I should start braking sooner? That's the only way I'll be able to 'ease' into the brakes, and still make the corner. Or, did I miss something?

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> >CONSITENCY, well I havent seen your best laps but from the >replays I would suggest that (SORRY) on the whole they were >just lucky. I refer specifically to Zanvoort where I don't think >there is any part of the circuit where you are really in full >control of the car and the best lap of 1:28.20 was a couple >of seconds quicker than most of the rest and you were just >lucky that the car decided to go through the corners right on >that particular lap. >

Hmm...I don't have a reply for that... :) > >Now, I'm not just talking lap times, certainly at Zandy you >rarely seem to change gear in the same place twice, often >using different gears (i.e. hairpin sometimes 1st, others 2nd) >I normally shifted down to 1st at the hairpin. Someone suggested only dropping to 2nd, so I was experimenting...<g>

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>LINE: Agruably the most important single factor, certainly if >you don't use the "right" line, no matter how good you can >brake, trail-brake, accellerate etc. etc. you are not going to >get near top times. > > >In general you do not use the full width of the circuit on >entry into corner and on the exit. Not on all but quite a lot, >particularly silverstone. If you every examine a top laps >against your own you will see that the top laps car uses all of >the circuit and chooses the optimum line through any given corner, >if you are not on the same line you are likely to be losing time even >before you start looking at braking points etc.

I've heard about not using all the track before. I explained it in another post. At Silverstone in particular, and also Spa, I can't really see the edge of the track clearly. It blends together, which means I'm never sure wher the edge IS untill I get closer... I don't know how to fix this yet. :(

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> >I've recently done the fuill 11 circuits in F2s then in F3 (pretty >much skipped these early on). I really would suggest you put a >few hours aside, run the F3s and concentrate on LINE. You dont >have to worry so much about wheelspin and controlling instability >as the F3s are much gentler. My times (Maxx F3) are on GPLRank. >They aren't brilliant as I only spent 5-6 hours on the whole 11 >circuits but you should be able to get pretty close.

I'm only about 100 seconds behind you in F3...<g> > >Question: Do you use FF, if so you MAY have it a little strong, >whilst this gives you more of a feeling it does tend to make >you react to feel rather than sight. And often that FEEL is just >a little out of synch with what is actually happening with the >car. No FF. I'm using a TSW2mod...

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> >OK, the rough stuffs over with now, always save the compliment >till laste so they don't pee in your beer later that evening (a well >known chief instructors saying). > >You DO have good car control, the BAD habits you have mean >that this skill has been honed to a high degree so this will stand >you in good stead when you get faster and faster which I am >convinced you will. >

What??? I actually have SOMETHING good?<g> >I really hope the above helps, it's advice that even I find difficult >to follow as deeply ingrained habits are hard to overcome and >often you just cannot see them in your own driving. I'm sure it will help. I just have to be patient, I guess. > >Oh, one final point, don't try and emulate the Huttu's of this >world, or try and struggle with their setups, they have fine >tuned their skill and setups over a long period of time and have >likely had to master the above before moving on. So who do you emulate, and who's setups? > >Best of Luck. Thanks, Malcolm! I really appreciate it. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +49.67 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <HKLy5.3246$[email hidden]>, "Tony Whitley" <t o n y . w h i t l e y @ n S t P l A w M o r l d . c o m> writes:

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>Barton Brown <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> Maxx wrote: >> > Lots of good stuff >> >> Now THAT was an interesting and informative post .. I'm keeping that and >> printing it out for reference. This makes me even more eager to see what >> the Skip Barber sim is capable of. >It certainly was enlightening - Eldred, you've got no excuses now, it's all >been explained. Hang on... that means I don't have any excuses now, either! > >Tony Whitley >GPLRank +13.5 and falling... >

Hehe... Tony, you're *already* faster than me... :) It's gonna take me a couple of days just to *digest* all that info... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +49.67 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

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>1) As a general comment, first noticed at Kyl bit pretty much >at every circuit, you seem to want to get all your braking >done before the corner, such that, you can afford to get on >the gas v.early in the corner and although not full accel it >is not a "balanced throttle" either. I rarely if ever saw a moment >where you where completely off the gas in any part of the corner >which, when you are really on the limit CAN be a bad thing but >you are NOT on the limit through the corner EXCEPT for the >fact that you are accelerating which is putting you on the limit. > >Difficult to explain but try this an experiment, drive a circuit that >you fel you have the braking points off pat. Brake as you >would normally but DO NOT get back on the throttel, just >drive through the corner on 0 gas. Now you are going to >swap end on some corners, as you need a balanced throttle >[EXP: balanced throttle=just enough gas to keep you at the >speed you are travelling] >If you do get round the corner, take on board how slow you were >going when you finally straightened out. I would imagine pretty >slow. Try it again and try just a very small amount of throttle, not >enough to actually accelerate.

I just ran about 15 laps at Monza, and 10 at Silverstone. If I don't use the accelerator in the turn, the car almost STOPS before I get to the exit. Maybe I picked the wrong tracks? Maybe I'm just missing the point of this one... :( Eldred - off to try some F3's... -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +49.67 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

>>Had a spare half-hour so decided to take a look at your replays. >> >Whoa - you came up with all this in a half hour?!? I'm impressed, sir... :) I probably would have said the same things after 10mins as you can quite easily spot a drivers tendencies, I tended to FFwd the first couple of laps. Kya/Mex altered me to your cornering and mid-corner throttle technique, Silv your track usage (line) and Zandy, well I think this measuered a 9.5 on the exhubernce scale. >> >So I should start braking sooner? That's the only way I'll be able to 'ease' >into the brakes, and still make the corner. Or, did I miss something? >Absolutely, ceratinly at first until you get familiar with the technique, such that it becomes a habit. Lifting off a few metres earlier and progrssive application of the brakes will only add a few 10ths to your laps times (obviously depends on no. of corners etc.) If this allows you to run through the corners under more control (which WILL be faster) and allows you to be correctly lined up for the exit, you will gain these back adn much more. As I said though, be prepared to be slower at first and make your objective to produce a lap that "feels" more under control such that the lap "feels" easy. If you try and make it smoother and smoother it will get faster. You are unlikley to be faster until you no longer have to think too hard about these new techniques. Oonce you get comfortable with this, the next exercise should be to be able to extract a small amount of, and consistent tyre squeal through every bend you take (or at least the first 80%). Take another look at any hotlaps you have and listen for this. It is VERY difficult to do and if you get it half right you'll zoom up GPLRank. >I normally shifted down to 1st at the hairpin. Someone suggested only dropping >to 2nd, so I was experimenting...<g> Understand, I went through the same and have only recently started using 2nd. Again, one of my failings, like you, is believing that if I'm not braking I need to hear the engine revving.

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>>In general you do not use the full width of the circuit >I've heard about not using all the track before. I explained it in another >post. At Silverstone in particular, and also Spa, I can't really see the edge >of the track clearly. It blends together, which means I'm never sure wher the >edge IS untill I get closer... I don't know how to fix this yet. :(

No real fix, you just need to KNOW where the circuit goes, If you turn in where you should clips the apex where you should the exit takes care of itself. I do know what you mean about Sil and Spa though. particular Silv as you ahve quite a bit of track covered by dust which you absolutely must use to be really quick, turn-ins and exits. A useful exercise is to watch you replay with one of those overhead "micro-machine type" cameras. I have them but can't recall where I got them. You will be surrised how much track there is available. >I'm only about 100 seconds behind you in F3...<g> Sorry, I'd forgotten you had F3 times on GPLRank, I think you are on my buddy list. I'll keep my eyes peeled for improvement :-) >>Question: Do you use FF >No FF. I'm using a TSW2mod... FF would be good for you to experience the imbalances that you get whilst braking and cornering but in general use I don't think FF has any great effect on lap times. As I said, it can be detrimental as you tend to react more to what you can feel than what you can see and the fact that this is not always exactly in synch with what is really happening can mess you up a little. If you get chance to use a FF whell I'm sure you'd find it enlightening. >>You DO have good car control >What??? I actually have SOMETHING good?<g> Absolutely, check out GPLRank and put 1000 in the "within x seconds" field. There are hundred of drivers behind you. Look at the average (about 60+ last time I looked) you are above average. Plus you are Numero Uno in the St Eldred Cip :-) Seriously, I do think from watching your replays that you are at about the peak of where you can go with your current driving style, as you say, you can't brake later, no matter how hard you press the gas pedals the car ain't gonna go no quicker, all the time you gain in future will be in the corners (which actually will gain you much more in the following straight). >I'm sure it will help. I just have to be patient, I guess. An absolute must. >>Oh, one final point, don't try and emulate the Huttu's of this >>world, or try and struggle with their setups, >So who do you emulate, and who's setups? Well up until very recently I never really played with setups at all. I still feel I am not proficient enough to recognise anything but major changes. I certainly used the defaults (adusted for small no. of laps) up until getting to around +40ish. I have used a few of Alisons, plus I did try Russ Hodgsons for a while, in conjunction with watching and trying to emulate his replays. The later did not work at all but I did gain some more knowledge and some of his setups suited my style (which I reverted back to). In F2/F3 I have almost exclusively used Gary Simpsons who I think has most of the F2/F3 WRs, I have tried Greger's F1 setups and I'm just not ready for them yet, maybe never will be. I've been experimenting with Stsve Smith 60/60/1 setups (see link on Eagle women page). His description of them as "rewarding exhuberent driving" appealed to me and I do like the feel of them. They give you the ability to do more with the throttle in mid-corner to place the car. I really wouldn't suggest experimenting too much with setups though Eldred. It's not where you are going to find your time. Certainly use GS's F3 setups though, in F3s the setup is less driver style dependent (IMHO). Once you have gained time on a circuit in F3, try it straight after in F2 (if you used GS's F3, then try his F2). You should find that after a few laps aclimatisation you will improve the F2 time also. I did this myself just yesterday. I was keen to see how I tackled Sil/Zan so ran them in F3 first then F2 and took about 1sec off each. Thats mainly because I've not run F3/F2 that much so still getting used to them. >Thanks, Malcolm! I really appreciate it. Your welcome. Also, thanks to everyine else who has posted compliments. Maxx

On 23 Sep 2000 04:10:01 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote:

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>>1) As a general comment, first noticed at Kyl bit pretty much >>at every circuit, you seem to want to get all your braking >>done before the corner, such that, you can afford to get on >>the gas v.early in the corner >I just ran about 15 laps at Monza, and 10 at Silverstone. If I don't use the >accelerator in the turn, the car almost STOPS before I get to the exit. Maybe >I picked the wrong tracks? Maybe I'm just missing the point of this one... :(

Exactly my point, although heavily exagerrated of course. Try the same again but this time stay off the gas until the apex, if you don't get tyre squeal prety mcuh all the way up to the apex then you are going too slow. REMEMBER to ease off the gas and ease onto the brake when you start to brake (I assume you are Left Foort Braking?). You can do this simulataneously such that for a split second you have both at 50%. Also remember, you must start to brake ealier. Just before you turn in EASE off the brakes (it's OK most of the time to have the last bit of the EASE as you turn in but don't aim for that yet) Now I would expect you to almost lose the back of the car owing to LIFT-OFF oversteer on at least 50% of the turns at Silverstone if you are going fast enough. Once you get to the Apex, start to accelerate PROGRESSIVELY even if you think you can floor it, don't, we are learning a technique not going for a hot lap. (although you may be surprised at the laps time sacheived). First get comfortable wioth the aproach braking and easing off the brakes on tuen in. Once that feels comfortable, as you ease off brakes on turn-in, start to EASE onto gas, just enough to maintain the speed you are going and just enough to evoke a SMALL AMOUNT of tyre squeal. Then just concentrate of getting to the EXIT via the APEX without too much drama (this bit is not supposed to be that hard). As you get more comfortable try and maintain that tyre squeal through at least the first 70/80% of the corner. If you do that through all the corners your a better man than I coz I can't do it yet but I'm working on it. Now obviously there are exceptions to the rule, but not many, if any at Sil or Zandy, or for that matter Monza, in fact Monza is very good for trying the constant squeal exercise. BTW, part of this exercise is to go into the corners quicker than you are doing at the moment. As you go in quicker, so you have to turn that little bit earlier as it takes that little bit longer for your steering input to take effect and to "bite". This normally come naturally I find following numerous excursions into the outfield. But best be aware of it none the less. Maxx > >Eldred - off to try some F3's...

Maxx wrote: > > Also, thanks to everyine else who has posted compliments. You deserved it, you really should start a "Sim Racing School" you know Not talking about individual tutoring, although if you wanted to I'm sure it would be appreciated by lots of people, but more of a general thing so people can get the basics down correctly, then people could at least have the chance to evolve from a correct starting point instead of starting out wrong and having to "unlearn" lots of bad habits Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

On Fri, 22 Sep 2000 19:00:45 +0100, "pez" <[email hidden]> wrote: Alex, You don't say if you've raced in real-life before but it sounds like you are attending a track/corporate day so likley you will not be alloweed to go "too fast". I'll just run through the corner so you know what to expect. T1 Redgate - late apex right hander, most people will turn too early, you are only 1-2 car lengths from being parallel with the apex when you turn, aim for apex almost 2/3 of the way around the blue-white curbing, you should be on full power just before the apex. Great for trail-braking in a FWD saloon, just keep 50% brake presure as you turn the wheel, just digs the front end into the turn, get off it pretty quick though and onto 50% poower then full at the apex (if you have the right line). You then sweep down towards the Craner Curves, various lines here but best to take a gradual line over to the RH side before swooping down the curves toward the Old-Hairpin. VERY IMPORTANT not to lift at any stage down the Craner Curves, in the 306. I've been down there on at least 3 occasions looking directly at someone else windcreen in front of me who had lifted and was going backwards. Old-Hairpin - The most important single corner on the track as the next section is all up-hill. It's not a hairpin (not even 90deg) you need to a) not hit the apex and b) use all the exit. The BEST way to do this once you are familiar with the corner is to look through the Apex to the exit and just aim for your exit point. As you are going downhill and the exit is uphill you can see it clearly. Run up to Macleans. If you are really going for it you will be heading towards the RH side of the circuit to as point where you will swing left on the approach to Macleans (which is a Right-Hander). At speed this gives an unwanted pendulum effect and you may well lose the back end at Macleans (certainly wont be able to take it at optimum speed). You need to ease off just as you run up on the right hand side of the track before turning into the appraoch to Macleans, such that the car is perfectly balanced (no sideways inertia) as you turn into the approach. Macleans - Great corner, almpst blind apex (late) and totally blind exit. Not a very critical corner for exit speed as the straight up to coppice is quite short but can gain time by taking speed through the corner. In the 306 you can tuen in initially on a trailing throttle which will bring the back around a little, you then need to balance all the way to the apex. you really need to know this corrner to get on the power on the exit, you can't see the exit curbs until just after the apex. If you are hapy you know the corner you can get on the power just before the apex. Coppice - The 2nd most important corner as it leads into the v. long hangar straight. A real nasty double-apex double-blind, slightly crowned right-hander. You can't really see the 1st apex before you have to turn for it, you then cant see the exit or the next apex until you get past the first apex. It's safest to be cautious on the first apex as a bad line here, or instability will mess the rest up. Ass you go through it a couple of time try and pick something on the horizon to aim for there used to be a lighting pole that I used. You apprach Coppince up hill, I'd brake 2 car lengths before the crown or so, then wait till I just see the apex and turn in with very little throttle as balance as I could be DO NOT hit the curb. Once past this apex, you can get away with most lines as long as you don't head wide too early. I imagine you will be using the club circuit so the next corner is the chicane. Pretty impoartnt also as it leads onto the start-finish straight. All I can say here is slow in, fast-out amd keep off all the curbs. When you take the first left hander, just try and pull the car in close to the inside curbing little to give you the best exit line rather than trying to drive the diagonal line. In a nutsheel concentrate on old-hairpin (carry speed through and use all the exit). Coppice, Steady in, trya nd pick a reference point, exit is the key and chicane slow-in, fast-out. Also, someone mentioned TOCA2, it's VERY accurate for DP, spookily in fact. Most of the abiove related to the FWD saloon. The difference with the FF is that you probably will get away with lifting down the Craners and don't lift at Macleans to get the back it may work in the FF but they snap much easier and quicker. Have Fun. (and let us know how you get on) Maxx >Im supposed to be drivng a Peugeot 306 GTi and a formula ford around >donington in about a months time....what advice would you give to people new >to motorracing there? what did you guys tell the newbies before they set >off for the first time? Is the layout anything like toca 2? > >pez -1.51 gplrank....hope itll be even lower when i trade in this p200...

We used to max out at 133mph before braking for the chicane (Club Circuit) in 1990 Vauxhall Astra GTEs (2.0), virtually road-spec engine apart from competition filters and tuning. They were very quick cars though. Maxx On Fri, 22 Sep 2000 23:17:54 +0100, "tesstuff" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>I would suggest the Toca 2 top speed of 151 is alot more(11mph) than the >real BTCC... >This would certainly account for some/alot of the time difference >"Colin Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:noQy5.15967$[email hidden]... >> I noticed, though, the dunlop straight is nowhere near as long IRL..also, >> the times posted by the real life BTCC guys were WAY slower than in T2....

>>Oh, one final point, don't try and emulate the Huttu's of this >>world, or try and struggle with their setups, they have fine >>tuned their skill and setups over a long period of time and have >>likely had to master the above before moving on. > >So who do you emulate, and who's setups? eldred, I use the alison hine setups and I find they are eminently more drivable than the defaults or some of those hotshoe drivers, ( very well balanced.) I also agree with the f3 and f2 suggestion, I tried the Ring with an f2 and after a day or so , I went back to an F1 and cut 1:20 off my best time (unfortunately it was a 10:55) but a 9:28 in the Honda was quite pleasing to get.... keep at it! Rob

that search for a star thing,for a scholership into the BRDC FFord the silverstone team.... pez Maxx wrote in message ...

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>On Fri, 22 Sep 2000 19:00:45 +0100, "pez" <[email hidden]> wrote: > >Alex, > >You don't say if you've raced in real-life before but it sounds like >you are attending a track/corporate day so likley you will not >be alloweed to go "too fast". > >I'll just run through the corner so you know what to expect. > >T1 Redgate - late apex right hander, most people will turn too >early, you are only 1-2 car lengths from being parallel with the apex >when you turn, aim for apex almost 2/3 of the way around the >blue-white curbing, you should be on full power just before the >apex. Great for trail-braking in a FWD saloon, just keep 50% >brake presure as you turn the wheel, just digs the front end into >the turn, get off it pretty quick though and onto 50% poower then >full at the apex (if you have the right line). > >You then sweep down towards the Craner Curves, various lines here > but best to take a gradual line over to the RH side before swooping >down the curves toward the Old-Hairpin. > >VERY IMPORTANT not to lift at any stage down the Craner Curves, >in the 306. I've been down there on at least 3 occasions looking >directly at someone else windcreen in front of me who had lifted and >was going backwards. > >Old-Hairpin - The most important single corner on the track as the >next section is all up-hill. It's not a hairpin (not even 90deg) you >need to a) not hit the apex and b) use all the exit. The BEST way >to do this once you are familiar with the corner is to look through >the Apex to the exit and just aim for your exit point. As you are >going downhill and the exit is uphill you can see it clearly. > >Run up to Macleans. If you are really going for it you will be >heading towards the RH side of the circuit to as point where >you will swing left on the approach to Macleans (which is >a Right-Hander). At speed this gives an unwanted pendulum >effect and you may well lose the back end at Macleans (certainly >wont be able to take it at optimum speed). You need to ease off >just as you run up on the right hand side of the track before >turning into the appraoch to Macleans, such that the car is >perfectly balanced (no sideways inertia) as you turn into >the approach. > >Macleans - Great corner, almpst blind apex (late) and >totally blind exit. Not a very critical corner for exit speed as >the straight up to coppice is quite short but can gain time >by taking speed through the corner. In the 306 you can >tuen in initially on a trailing throttle which will bring the back >around a little, you then need to balance all the way to the >apex. you really need to know this corrner to get on the power >on the exit, you can't see the exit curbs until just after the apex. >If you are hapy you know the corner you can get on the power >just before the apex. > >Coppice - The 2nd most important corner as it leads into the >v. long hangar straight. A real nasty double-apex double-blind, >slightly crowned right-hander. > >You can't really see the 1st apex before you have to turn for it, >you then cant see the exit or the next apex until you get past the >first apex. It's safest to be cautious on the first apex as a bad >line here, or instability will mess the rest up. Ass you go through it >a couple of time try and pick something on the horizon to aim for >there used to be a lighting pole that I used. > >You apprach Coppince up hill, I'd brake 2 car lengths before the >crown or so, then wait till I just see the apex and turn in with >very little throttle as balance as I could be DO NOT hit the curb. >Once past this apex, you can get away with most lines as long >as you don't head wide too early. > >I imagine you will be using the club circuit so the next >corner is the chicane. Pretty impoartnt also as it leads onto >the start-finish straight. All I can say here is slow in, fast-out >amd keep off all the curbs. When you take the first left >hander, just try and pull the car in close to the inside curbing >little to give you the best exit line rather than trying to drive the >diagonal line. > >In a nutsheel concentrate on old-hairpin (carry speed through >and use all the exit). Coppice, Steady in, trya nd pick a reference >point, exit is the key and chicane slow-in, fast-out. > >Also, someone mentioned TOCA2, it's VERY accurate for DP, >spookily in fact. > >Most of the abiove related to the FWD saloon. The difference with >the FF is that you probably will get away with lifting down the >Craners and don't lift at Macleans to get the back it may work in the >FF but they snap much easier and quicker. > >Have Fun. (and let us know how you get on) > >Maxx > > >>Im supposed to be drivng a Peugeot 306 GTi and a formula ford around >>donington in about a months time....what advice would you give to people

new >>to motorracing there? what did you guys tell the newbies before they set >>off for the first time? Is the layout anything like toca 2? >> >>pez -1.51 gplrank....hope itll be even lower when i trade in this p200... >

and cheers for the tips.....i owe you a pint.... pez Maxx wrote in message ...

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>On Fri, 22 Sep 2000 19:00:45 +0100, "pez" <[email hidden]> wrote: > >Alex, > >You don't say if you've raced in real-life before but it sounds like >you are attending a track/corporate day so likley you will not >be alloweed to go "too fast". > >I'll just run through the corner so you know what to expect. > >T1 Redgate - late apex right hander, most people will turn too >early, you are only 1-2 car lengths from being parallel with the apex >when you turn, aim for apex almost 2/3 of the way around the >blue-white curbing, you should be on full power just before the >apex. Great for trail-braking in a FWD saloon, just keep 50% >brake presure as you turn the wheel, just digs the front end into >the turn, get off it pretty quick though and onto 50% poower then >full at the apex (if you have the right line). > >You then sweep down towards the Craner Curves, various lines here > but best to take a gradual line over to the RH side before swooping >down the curves toward the Old-Hairpin. > >VERY IMPORTANT not to lift at any stage down the Craner Curves, >in the 306. I've been down there on at least 3 occasions looking >directly at someone else windcreen in front of me who had lifted and >was going backwards. > >Old-Hairpin - The most important single corner on the track as the >next section is all up-hill. It's not a hairpin (not even 90deg) you >need to a) not hit the apex and b) use all the exit. The BEST way >to do this once you are familiar with the corner is to look through >the Apex to the exit and just aim for your exit point. As you are >going downhill and the exit is uphill you can see it clearly. > >Run up to Macleans. If you are really going for it you will be >heading towards the RH side of the circuit to as point where >you will swing left on the approach to Macleans (which is >a Right-Hander). At speed this gives an unwanted pendulum >effect and you may well lose the back end at Macleans (certainly >wont be able to take it at optimum speed). You need to ease off >just as you run up on the right hand side of the track before >turning into the appraoch to Macleans, such that the car is >perfectly balanced (no sideways inertia) as you turn into >the approach. > >Macleans - Great corner, almpst blind apex (late) and >totally blind exit. Not a very critical corner for exit speed as >the straight up to coppice is quite short but can gain time >by taking speed through the corner. In the 306 you can >tuen in initially on a trailing throttle which will bring the back >around a little, you then need to balance all the way to the >apex. you really need to know this corrner to get on the power >on the exit, you can't see the exit curbs until just after the apex. >If you are hapy you know the corner you can get on the power >just before the apex. > >Coppice - The 2nd most important corner as it leads into the >v. long hangar straight. A real nasty double-apex double-blind, >slightly crowned right-hander. > >You can't really see the 1st apex before you have to turn for it, >you then cant see the exit or the next apex until you get past the >first apex. It's safest to be cautious on the first apex as a bad >line here, or instability will mess the rest up. Ass you go through it >a couple of time try and pick something on the horizon to aim for >there used to be a lighting pole that I used. > >You apprach Coppince up hill, I'd brake 2 car lengths before the >crown or so, then wait till I just see the apex and turn in with >very little throttle as balance as I could be DO NOT hit the curb. >Once past this apex, you can get away with most lines as long >as you don't head wide too early. > >I imagine you will be using the club circuit so the next >corner is the chicane. Pretty impoartnt also as it leads onto >the start-finish straight. All I can say here is slow in, fast-out >amd keep off all the curbs. When you take the first left >hander, just try and pull the car in close to the inside curbing >little to give you the best exit line rather than trying to drive the >diagonal line. > >In a nutsheel concentrate on old-hairpin (carry speed through >and use all the exit). Coppice, Steady in, trya nd pick a reference >point, exit is the key and chicane slow-in, fast-out. > >Also, someone mentioned TOCA2, it's VERY accurate for DP, >spookily in fact. > >Most of the abiove related to the FWD saloon. The difference with >the FF is that you probably will get away with lifting down the >Craners and don't lift at Macleans to get the back it may work in the >FF but they snap much easier and quicker. > >Have Fun. (and let us know how you get on) > >Maxx > > >>Im supposed to be drivng a Peugeot 306 GTi and a formula ford around >>donington in about a months time....what advice would you give to people

new >>to motorracing there? what did you guys tell the newbies before they set >>off for the first time? Is the layout anything like toca 2? >> >>pez -1.51 gplrank....hope itll be even lower when i trade in this p200... >

those fiestas in toca2 any thing like those 306s? pez Maxx wrote in message ...

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>On Fri, 22 Sep 2000 19:00:45 +0100, "pez" <[email hidden]> wrote: > >Alex, > >You don't say if you've raced in real-life before but it sounds like >you are attending a track/corporate day so likley you will not >be alloweed to go "too fast". > >I'll just run through the corner so you know what to expect. > >T1 Redgate - late apex right hander, most people will turn too >early, you are only 1-2 car lengths from being parallel with the apex >when you turn, aim for apex almost 2/3 of the way around the >blue-white curbing, you should be on full power just before the >apex. Great for trail-braking in a FWD saloon, just keep 50% >brake presure as you turn the wheel, just digs the front end into >the turn, get off it pretty quick though and onto 50% poower then >full at the apex (if you have the right line). > >You then sweep down towards the Craner Curves, various lines here > but best to take a gradual line over to the RH side before swooping >down the curves toward the Old-Hairpin. > >VERY IMPORTANT not to lift at any stage down the Craner Curves, >in the 306. I've been down there on at least 3 occasions looking >directly at someone else windcreen in front of me who had lifted and >was going backwards. > >Old-Hairpin - The most important single corner on the track as the >next section is all up-hill. It's not a hairpin (not even 90deg) you >need to a) not hit the apex and b) use all the exit. The BEST way >to do this once you are familiar with the corner is to look through >the Apex to the exit and just aim for your exit point. As you are >going downhill and the exit is uphill you can see it clearly. > >Run up to Macleans. If you are really going for it you will be >heading towards the RH side of the circuit to as point where >you will swing left on the approach to Macleans (which is >a Right-Hander). At speed this gives an unwanted pendulum >effect and you may well lose the back end at Macleans (certainly >wont be able to take it at optimum speed). You need to ease off >just as you run up on the right hand side of the track before >turning into the appraoch to Macleans, such that the car is >perfectly balanced (no sideways inertia) as you turn into >the approach. > >Macleans - Great corner, almpst blind apex (late) and >totally blind exit. Not a very critical corner for exit speed as >the straight up to coppice is quite short but can gain time >by taking speed through the corner. In the 306 you can >tuen in initially on a trailing throttle which will bring the back >around a little, you then need to balance all the way to the >apex. you really need to know this corrner to get on the power >on the exit, you can't see the exit curbs until just after the apex. >If you are hapy you know the corner you can get on the power >just before the apex. > >Coppice - The 2nd most important corner as it leads into the >v. long hangar straight. A real nasty double-apex double-blind, >slightly crowned right-hander. > >You can't really see the 1st apex before you have to turn for it, >you then cant see the exit or the next apex until you get past the >first apex. It's safest to be cautious on the first apex as a bad >line here, or instability will mess the rest up. Ass you go through it >a couple of time try and pick something on the horizon to aim for >there used to be a lighting pole that I used. > >You apprach Coppince up hill, I'd brake 2 car lengths before the >crown or so, then wait till I just see the apex and turn in with >very little throttle as balance as I could be DO NOT hit the curb. >Once past this apex, you can get away with most lines as long >as you don't head wide too early. > >I imagine you will be using the club circuit so the next >corner is the chicane. Pretty impoartnt also as it leads onto >the start-finish straight. All I can say here is slow in, fast-out >amd keep off all the curbs. When you take the first left >hander, just try and pull the car in close to the inside curbing >little to give you the best exit line rather than trying to drive the >diagonal line. > >In a nutsheel concentrate on old-hairpin (carry speed through >and use all the exit). Coppice, Steady in, trya nd pick a reference >point, exit is the key and chicane slow-in, fast-out. > >Also, someone mentioned TOCA2, it's VERY accurate for DP, >spookily in fact. > >Most of the abiove related to the FWD saloon. The difference with >the FF is that you probably will get away with lifting down the >Craners and don't lift at Macleans to get the back it may work in the >FF but they snap much easier and quicker. > >Have Fun. (and let us know how you get on) > >Maxx > > >>Im supposed to be drivng a Peugeot 306 GTi and a formula ford around >>donington in about a months time....what advice would you give to people

new >>to motorracing there? what did you guys tell the newbies before they set >>off for the first time? Is the layout anything like toca 2? >> >>pez -1.51 gplrank....hope itll be even lower when i trade in this p200... >

On Sun, 24 Sep 2000 02:56:09 +0100, "pez" <[email hidden]> wrote: >those fiestas in toca2 any thing like those 306s? > Long time since I played TOCA2 and rarely ran the fiestas. One thing I recall was that FWD was not modelled that well as far as lift-off oversteer and throttle balance in the actual corner. In a FWD car if you are taking any fastish corner at speed if you lift off the back will come around very quickly very much so at Old-Hairpin, Macleans and Coppice. In FWD you tend to use this to bring the back-end around (i,e. lift off slightly, rather than the opposite in RWD, where you generally give it more gas. TOCA2 didn't seem to model either of these that well in the Saloons. However, the FF was very well modelled in my view, can't really get the best out of it at Donington though as you just don't have the power. Theres a pretty poor quality quality Real Video file of a DP GP circuit lap here : http://www.calumlockie.co.uk/videos.htm I also recall an on-bike vide that was better quality but not sure where it was. Good Luck on the day. Maxx

On 23 Sep 2000 02:52:25 GMT, EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote: > >So who do you emulate, and who's setups? I pretty much make my own setups now. My "baseline" looks something like this (for the F1 Ferrari): Left Right Front ---- ----- ----- Tire pressure: 20 20 Wheel rate: 70 70 Bump: 3 3 Rebound: 3 3 Camber: -0.50 -0.50 Bump rubber: 1.00 1.00 Toe-in: -0.075 Roll bar: 170 Ride height: 3.5 Brake bias: 55 Rear ---- Toe-in: 0.175 Roll bar: 130 Ride height: 3.5 Tire pressure: 20 20 Wheel rate: 110 110 Bump: 3 3 Rebound: 3 3 Camber: -0.25 -0.25 Bump rubber: 1.00 1.00 Differential: 60/85 + 2 clutches Steering ratio: 16:1 Gearing: I usually start from Alison's or from a hotlapper's. This makes for a nicely balanced car, with a good turn-in and easy to balance on the throttle on corner exit. I'm not sure how it would do without split-axis, though, as I'm very often using both gas and brakes at the same time in the turns. Oh yeah, my GPL Rank is +33.560, although I haven't serisouly ran all the tracks to improve my times in a while. Richard. -- Richard Bellavance Enter-Net Inc. Phone: (450) 449-5261 #16 Systems Administrator/ (514) 990-1683 #16 Analyst-Programmer Fax: (450) 449-5242

Eldred (and anyone else who's interested). It's almost a week since I posted my spoutings on correct (as I see them) techniques for getting around a race circuit quickly. I'm not sure how valuable you found it but I found it very valuable, as looking at someone elses technique and pointing out problems made me realise, the next time I ran GPL, that I don't take that much notice of myself. Here was I telling you to ease on the brake and taking a "steady" run through the corners getting just that slight tyre-squeal and exiting smoothly when I find myself jumping on the brakes at the last possible moment, squirming for grip and sounding like a cat on fire (apols to cat lovers) thru the corners. Thinking, "I'm sure I can brake just a little bit later next time". In short I was in what I'd called my "banzai" phase every corner was a new adventure, early-apex, late-apex, No-apex. Anyway, the point of all this is that I decided to take a step back and try and "walk my talk". I was at Mosport which is not a big fav or mine. My plan was to try and put 4-5 laps together adhering to the sorts of techniques I'd described and not really "trying" to get a PB. I took the F3s out as you can concentrate more on correct driving if you have a little more "time" in which to make your movement, like most things you need to be able to do it right slowly before you can begin to do it right quickly. Anyway, cutting to the chase within a few laps I'd set a PB and by about 1sec. Filled with enthusisasm for my new found "disciplined approach" I set about a few other tracks where I knew I was slow and the PBs went tumbling. I found a "new " understanding of a coouple of corners and tried the same traclks in F2, after a few laps, same result. F1s next, same result. Good technique is good technique no matter how fast you are going. Now I'm not saying that ANY of my PBs are even close to Mr Huttu's as they clearly aren't but I'm nowhere near ready to approach that, plus it is not my ambition. I'm looking at Papyrus Benchmark times, plus other benchmarks I've set myself for F2/F3. Overall however the benchmark is to be able to get the car to do what I want it to, place it where I want it, and maximise my run around the circuit. Anyway, after 5 days I've improved all of my GPLRank handicaps by a decent amount and these are on the shorter tracks (only ran the Ring in F3 Nurb with 8sec improvement) GPLrank 22/09 27/09 ----------------------- ------------ ---------- F1 Malcolm Edeson + 26.07 22.75 F2 Maxx F2 +121.86 112.46 F3 Maxx F3 +315.42 299.50 And it's not that I've spent a lot of time on these, I run 2 business and have a wife & family which doesn't leave a lot of time free although in total I must have spent about 12-15 hours in GPL but less than half of that is actually driving sensible laps. I probably only ran 3-4 circuits to get those times down. Just to say it can be done, I hadn't realised I could improve so much so quickly and I'm now confident that when I run the tracks I've not run yet, I will improve. If I match Papys Ring time in F1 I'd be +3.65 although the Ring is another challenge, same principals apply of course. I'm absolutely confident you can improve Eldred but you do need to step back and take stock, same for a lot of +ve GPLRankers out there who are trying to go quicker. I think we all get to the stage where we start to try and brake later to get that extra 10th when we are losing a whole second because we take a poor line, miss the apex and consequently lose buckets of time down the following straight. Good Luck with the "new" approach to anyone who's trying it, if you have questions/problems etc. post here and I'll reply. Maxx On Fri, 22 Sep 2000 12:37:39 GMT, Maxx <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>[lots of stuff about correct technique .. ] >GPLrank >F1 Malcolm Edeson + 26.07 >F2 Maxx F2 +121.86 >F3 Maxx F3 +315.42 > > >On 20 Sep 2000 23:03:20 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: > >>Someone(Andre, I think) suggested posting some laps where I wasn't *quite* so >>in control. The theory being, people could see what I was doing wrong easier, >>and could suggest ways not to do it.<g> Well...

Motivated and spurred on by the generous comments received and the improvements in my laps times having taken notice of myself I've put together a little "package". It's pretty rough and ready to say the least, as I only started it 5 hours ago but maybe worth a look - see separate posting "GPL - How to go Faster in GPL" Maxx