Re: GP2 is better than GP3

YEAH! GP1 had Phoenix, didn't it? "T" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:zW5A5.5713$tL4.118988@zonnet-reader-1... > Ang GP1 was better than GP2 > >

It's sad but true. I fired up GP2 last night for the first time in about 6 months, and was really astonished by how much I enjoyed myself. It doesn't have rain, full tumble crashes, or force feedback, and the graphics are second rate, but the whole sim just seems so much more polished than GP3. With all the driving aids off, GP2's control inputs feel silky smooth, direct and responsive, instead of laggy and rubbery like they do in GP3. GP3's AI are insane compared to GP2. They will swerve all over the track to block you, changing line as many times as they please, and have no inhibitions whatsoever about blocking you just as you're about to pull alongside, forcing a crash. GP2's AI are a bit weak on defense, but you can have some real close, fair racing with them, as long as you refrain from blocking them yourself. Also, I'm beginning to strongly suspect that dynamic cockpits are actually a bad thing. I think you get better visual feedback without your virtual head bouncing all over the place. It might explain why some people are quicker with F10 view in GPL. Every sim should have the option to turn off the "springy neck" feature. You need to feel what the car is doing, not what your melon is doing. But most importantly, GP2 is actually fun! I just haven't been able to enjoy GP3 on nearly the same level. Gameplay is what it's all about. Geoff Crammond and company, you have lost your way. -A

Nice comparison -- thanks for sharing your thoughts! I think that some of the "unfinished" or "unpolished" feel in GP3 is attributable to the grainy, pixellated graphics -- in GP2, the graphics may be dated SVGA, but at least they're crisp, clear, SVGA graphics, and the graphics in GP3 lack that clean, crisp "feeling." Also, the backgrounds and some of the scenery in GP3 may be close to photo- realistic, but the lighting seems to be WAY off, IMO. The tracks in F1 2000 may be a little dark, but GP3 suffers from "artificial" lighting effects. -- JB In article <c4Tz5.20082$[email hidden]>, "Aubrey" <[email hidden]> wrote: > It's sad but true. > > I fired up GP2 last night for the first time in about 6 months, andwas > really astonished by how much I enjoyed myself. It doesn't haverain, full > tumble crashes, or force feedback, and the graphics are second rate,but the > whole sim just seems so much more polished than GP3. > > With all the driving aids off, GP2's control inputs feel silky smooth, > direct and responsive, instead of laggy and rubbery like they do inGP3. > GP3's AI are insane compared to GP2. They will swerve all over thetrack to > block you, changing line as many times as they please, and have no > inhibitions whatsoever about blocking you just as you're about to pull > alongside, forcing a crash. GP2's AI are a bit weak on defense, butyou can > have some real close, fair racing with them, as long as you refrainfrom > blocking them yourself. Also, I'm beginning to strongly suspect that > dynamic cockpits are actually a bad thing. I think you get bettervisual > feedback without your virtual head bouncing all over the place. Itmight > explain why some people are quicker with F10 view in GPL. Every simshould > have the option to turn off the "springy neck" feature. You need tofeel > what the car is doing, not what your melon is doing. > > But most importantly, GP2 is actually fun! I just haven't been ableto > enjoy GP3 on nearly the same level. Gameplay is what it's allabout. Geoff > Crammond and company, you have lost your way. > > -A > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Comment about the Virtual cockpit - you take that away from GPL and I'd say that the game would be pretty crap - all that brillian physics and driving model without feeldback would be a game wasted. The Virtual cockpit is the source of 90% of your feedback in the game and the reason why you have such a good perception of what the car is doing at all times. Same with GP3 - I can't see much else but tweeked GP2 physics in there, but the Virtual cockpit really gives you some very nice feedback which was so lacking from GP2 (and F1RS). This is the best thing about GP3 (over GP2). Without the Virtual cockpit I feel like my car is not on the road but floats about it Also, u don't feel how roung the road is, where the bumbers are, which wheel has the load, where the weight is transfering etc. Virtual cockpit is the main source of feedback from a 'sim' - I could not live without it and any sim that does not have is a waste of time for me now that I know what it can do from GPL. Regards, David Mocnay Also, I'm beginning to strongly suspect that

Quoted text (9 lines)

>> dynamic cockpits are actually a bad thing. I think you get better >visual >> feedback without your virtual head bouncing all over the place. It >might >> explain why some people are quicker with F10 view in GPL. Every sim >should >> have the option to turn off the "springy neck" feature. You need to >feel >> what the car is doing, not what your melon is doing.

Ang GP1 was better than GP2

Excuse my ignorance, but I have read references to "Virtual Cockpit" before, and never quite understood exactly what that means. Can you explain it in more detail? It sounds like you're refering to seeing the suspension, etc in GPL, which is outside the cockpit. Or are you referring to some sort of feedback from within the cockpit that either I don't notice or can't appreciate? Thanks. David Mocnay wrote:

Quoted text (28 lines)

> Comment about the Virtual cockpit - you take that away from GPL and I'd say > that the game would be pretty crap - all that brillian physics and driving > model without feeldback would be a game wasted. The Virtual cockpit is the > source of 90% of your feedback in the game and the reason why you have such > a good perception of what the car is doing at all times. Same with GP3 - I > can't see much else but tweeked GP2 physics in there, but the Virtual > cockpit really gives you some very nice feedback which was so lacking from > GP2 (and F1RS). This is the best thing about GP3 (over GP2). Without the > Virtual cockpit I feel like my car is not on the road but floats about it > Also, u don't feel how roung the road is, where the bumbers are, which wheel > has the load, where the weight is transfering etc. Virtual cockpit is the > main source of feedback from a 'sim' - I could not live without it and any > sim that does not have is a waste of time for me now that I know what it can > do from GPL. > > Regards, > David Mocnay > > Also, I'm beginning to strongly suspect that > >> dynamic cockpits are actually a bad thing. I think you get better > >visual > >> feedback without your virtual head bouncing all over the place. It > >might > >> explain why some people are quicker with F10 view in GPL. Every sim > >should > >> have the option to turn off the "springy neck" feature. You need to > >feel > >> what the car is doing, not what your melon is doing.

'Vitrual cockpit' - I think it's sometimes referred to as "dynamic cockpit' as well. What it is it makes the Cockpit vibrates, twists, shakes and moves in and out to give u an illusion of what the car is doing. For instance, if u blip the throttle in GPL then the cockpit twists a little bit and u can fell the 'tourque twist' though that. Or when u change the gear, the cockpit nudges back and fort a fraction - gives u an illusion that your had jolted under the gearchange. Using the 'dynamic cockpit' the sim can telegraph where the weight is or where it is transferring too. A lot of games have now the "virtual cockpit' but some do it better then others. GPL does it amazingly well. GP3 does it very well too (but is let down a bit by the fact that the physics/car dynamics engine is not that sophisticated). RC2 does it OK. SCGT, ICR2 and F1RS have almost not existent virtual cockpit while GP2 has absolutely none (odd, 'cos GP1 and REVS di have a minor implementation). Ten on the other hand games like F199 have it but it's totally crap. Amazing the amount of feedback u get back just though that - it can really suck u into thinking/feeling what the car is doing and driving by the 'seat of your pants' :-) Regards, David Mocnay BRH wrote in message <[email hidden]>... >Excuse my ignorance, but I have read references to "Virtual Cockpit"before, and >never quite understood exactly what that means. Can you explain it in more >detail? It sounds like you're refering to seeing the suspension, etc inGPL, >which is outside the cockpit. Or are you referring to some sort offeedback >from within the cockpit that either I don't notice or can't appreciate?

On the subject of virtual cockpits and GP2, I just noticed a few weeks ago that ICR2 (which I always favored somewhat over GP2) DOES have a virtual cockpit -- it's implemented VERY much like it is in GPL, in fact (no surpise considering they're both Papy products). -- JB In article <4ccA5.6770$[email hidden]>, "David Mocnay" <[email hidden]> wrote: > 'Vitrual cockpit' - I think it's sometimes referred to as "dynamiccockpit' > as well. What it is it makes the Cockpit vibrates, twists, shakes andmoves > in and out to give u an illusion of what the car is doing. Forinstance, if > u blip the throttle in GPL then the cockpit twists a little bit and ucan > fell the 'tourque twist' though that. Or when u change the gear, thecockpit > nudges back and fort a fraction - gives u an illusion that your hadjolted > under the gearchange. Using the 'dynamic cockpit' the sim cantelegraph > where the weight is or where it is transferring too. A lot of gameshave now > the "virtual cockpit' but some do it better then others. GPL does it > amazingly well. GP3 does it very well too (but is let down a bit bythe fact > that the physics/car dynamics engine is not that sophisticated). RC2does it > OK. SCGT, ICR2 and F1RS have almost not existent virtual cockpitwhile GP2 > has absolutely none (odd, 'cos GP1 and REVS di have a minorimplementation). > Ten on the other hand games like F199 have it but it's totally crap. > > Amazing the amount of feedback u get back just though that - it canreally > suck u into thinking/feeling what the car is doing and driving bythe 'seat

Quoted text (9 lines)

> of your pants' :-) > > Regards, > David Mocnay > > BRH wrote in message <[email hidden]>... > >Excuse my ignorance, but I have read references to "Virtual Cockpit" > before, and > >never quite understood exactly what that means. Can you explain it

in more > >detail? It sounds like you're refering to seeing the suspension,etc in > GPL, > >which is outside the cockpit. Or are you referring to some sort of > feedback > >from within the cockpit that either I don't notice or can'tappreciate? > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

[email hidden] wrote: > > On the subject of virtual cockpits and GP2, I just noticed a few weeks > ago that ICR2 (which I always favored somewhat over GP2) DOES have a > virtual cockpit -- it's implemented VERY much like it is in GPL, in > fact (no surpise considering they're both Papy products). In my mind, for a cockpit to be called virtual, it has to be a 3D model, with a moving point of view tied to real G-force calculations. By this measure, ICR2 is not a virtual cockpit, since it's just a 2D drawing of a cockpit that happens to move around on the screen. Didn't the original Indy 500 have this same type of 2D cockpit that moved? After thinking about it, I'm not sure that the 3D cockpits in NH, F1 2000, or GP3 are any better than the ICR2 style cockpits, in that they only move front-to-back. A real 3D cockpit should also move side-to-side like GPL. -- Pat Dotson

"David Mocnay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4ccA5.6770$[email hidden]... > 'Vitrual cockpit' - I think it's sometimes referred to as "dynamiccockpit' > as well. What it is it makes the Cockpit vibrates, twists, shakes andmoves > in and out to give u an illusion of what the car is doing. For instance,if > u blip the throttle in GPL then the cockpit twists a little bit and u can > fell the 'tourque twist' though that. Or when u change the gear, thecockpit > nudges back and fort a fraction - gives u an illusion that your had jolted > under the gearchange. Using the 'dynamic cockpit' the sim can telegraph > where the weight is or where it is transferring too. A lot of games havenow > the "virtual cockpit' but some do it better then others. GPL does it > amazingly well. GP3 does it very well too (but is let down a bit by thefact > that the physics/car dynamics engine is not that sophisticated). RC2 doesit > OK. SCGT, ICR2 and F1RS have almost not existent virtual cockpit while GP2 > has absolutely none (odd, 'cos GP1 and REVS di have a minorimplementation). > Ten on the other hand games like F199 have it but it's totally crap. > > Amazing the amount of feedback u get back just though that - it can really > suck u into thinking/feeling what the car is doing and driving by the'seat > of your pants' :-) > > Regards, > David Mocnay Well, I guess it's one of those personal preference things. My point is that I think you actually get most of your visual feedback from simply watching the scenery go by. This gives you a sense of speed, and helps you instinctively imagine how many G's you're pulling in a corner. You can sense the car diving or squatting by seeing the horizon move up or down relative to your monitor, and you can sense the chassis rolling in a corner when you see the horizon rotating. I suspect the addition of a dynamic cockpit interferes with these sensations. GPL has no dynamic cockpit when you watch a replay, and I think the sim looks pretty damn good this way. I've noticed that when watching a replay of myself, at certain times it looks like I'm not pushing hard enough, and I think this is because I'm getting visual feedback that wasn't available to me while I was actually doing the lap. I could be wrong, but it would be nice to have the option to turn off the dynamic cockpit, so I could be absolutely sure. -A

"Pat Dotson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (24 lines)

> [email hidden] wrote: > > > > On the subject of virtual cockpits and GP2, I just noticed a few weeks > > ago that ICR2 (which I always favored somewhat over GP2) DOES have a > > virtual cockpit -- it's implemented VERY much like it is in GPL, in > > fact (no surpise considering they're both Papy products). > > In my mind, for a cockpit to be called virtual, it > has to be a 3D model, with a moving point of view > tied to real G-force calculations. By this measure, > ICR2 is not a virtual cockpit, since it's just a > 2D drawing of a cockpit that happens to move around > on the screen. Didn't the original Indy 500 have > this same type of 2D cockpit that moved? > > After thinking about it, I'm not sure that the > 3D cockpits in NH, F1 2000, or GP3 are any better > than the ICR2 style cockpits, in that they only > move front-to-back. A real 3D cockpit should > also move side-to-side like GPL. > > -- > Pat Dotson >

It's a minor point, but GP3's cockpit rotates when you hit curbs or banking, in addition to moving front-to-back.

---------------------------- "You can sense the car diving or squatting by seeing the horizon move up or down relative to your monitor, and you can sense the chassis rolling in a corner when you see the horizon rotating....." ---------------------------- What you just described is a virtual cockpit. If u have a look at GP2 - it has none of this. Though, ICR2/GP1 do have the 'up and down' thing happening. Though, ICR2 has a very 'limited' feedback coded into the cockpit. GPL seems to have modelled every minute detail (like tourque twist) into it so u can feel practically everything though it. If u actually step back and just watch what the cockpit does (and when), it's pretty amazing. btw, in Replays the cockpit still reacts as when u driving - I'm sure of it. GP3 gives u a lot of feedback though the cockpit and it is very well done ... probably as well as you can give the limitation of the physics/car dynamics engine. Hard to model 'Tourque twist' if you don't model the tourque. Regards, David Mocnay >Well, I guess it's one of those personal preference things. My point is >that I think you actually get most of your visual feedback from simply >watching the scenery go by. This gives you a sense of speed, and helps you >instinctively imagine how many G's you're pulling in a corner. You can >sense the car diving or squatting by seeing the horizon move up or down >relative to your monitor, and you can sense the chassis rolling in acorner

Quoted text (7 lines)

>when you see the horizon rotating. I suspect the addition of a dynamic >cockpit interferes with these sensations. GPL has no dynamic cockpit when >you watch a replay, and I think the sim looks pretty damn good this way. >I've noticed that when watching a replay of myself, at certain times it >looks like I'm not pushing hard enough, and I think this is because I'm >getting visual feedback that wasn't available to me while I was actually >doing the lap. I could be wrong, but it would be nice to have the option

to >turn off the dynamic cockpit, so I could be absolutely sure. > >-A > >

"David Mocnay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:yHzA5.7593$[email hidden]... > ---------------------------- > "You can sense the car diving or squatting by seeing the horizon move upor

Quoted text (8 lines)

> down relative to your monitor, and you can sense the chassis rolling in a > corner when you see the horizon rotating....." > ---------------------------- > > What you just described is a virtual cockpit. If u have a look at GP2 - it > has none of this. Though, ICR2/GP1 do have the 'up and down' thing > happening. Though, ICR2 has a very 'limited' feedback coded into the > cockpit. GPL seems to have modelled every minute detail (like tourque

twist) > into it so u can feel practically everything though it. If u actually step > back and just watch what the cockpit does (and when), it's pretty amazing. > btw, in Replays the cockpit still reacts as when u driving - I'm sure ofit. No! That is not the same as a virtual cockpit! I described what both GP1 and GP2 do. GP2 has less dive under braking than GP1 does, so it's less noticible. But both sims have a static cockpit. The scenery moves relative to your cockpit, while the cockpit is a sprite pasted on the screen. With a dynamic or virtual cockpit, the cockpit moves relative to your *monitor*. This does not happen in GPL replays, it only happens while you are actually driving. Just watch a GPL replay and put your finger on the screen. Notice how the cockpit does not move relative to your finger. However, the suspension and tires do move relative to your monitor, which is what you may be thinking of. Actually, it's kind of a confusing misnomer to call it a "dynamic cockpit", since of course, every sim simulates a cockpit that moves relative to the scenery. What we typically call a "dynamic cockpit" could technically be called a "dynamic head" since it is more like simulating the drivers head (or camera position) moving about in the cockpit. -A

"Aubrey" <[email hidden]> wrote > This does not happen in GPL replays, it only happens while you areactually > driving. It happens in the replay also. The only reason why you don't see the cockpit moving in *some* views is because the camera is fixed at an XYZ position from the center of the car, thus it can't see the cockpit moving. Whatever the situation, cockpits DON'T move, it's the point of view that does remember ;) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:92IA5.298603$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (10 lines)

> "Aubrey" <[email hidden]> wrote > > This does not happen in GPL replays, it only happens while you are > actually > > driving. > > It happens in the replay also. The only reason why you don't see the > cockpit moving in *some* views is because the camera is fixed at an XYZ > position from the center of the car, thus it can't see the cockpit moving. > Whatever the situation, cockpits DON'T move, it's the point of view that > does remember ;)

When you say "it happens" you're referring to when I said a virtual cockpit moves relative to the screen. Like I said before, GPL definitely does not do this during a replay. Fire up a replay, put your finger on the screen, and you will see that I'm obviously right. This shouldn't be so controversial.

Yeah you're right ... what GP1 and ICR2 is not 'virtual cockpit' ... they go a small way to simulating the dip and rise of the nose. btw, I'm sure that GP2 does not do any of this. No matter that you do in the car, the scenery (or cockpit) will not tilt or dip ... I remember being disappointed with this when I used to play it. ""Virtual cockpit" is what GPL, GP3, CR99 and F199 have (some better implementations then others ... of course) ps. I agree, calling it a 'simulation of the drivers head' is probably a better term then 'Virtual cockpit' :-) Regards, David Mocnay >No! That is not the same as a virtual cockpit! I described what both GP1 >and GP2 do. GP2 has less dive under braking than GP1 does, so it's less >noticible. But both sims have a static cockpit. The scenery movesrelative >to your cockpit, while the cockpit is a sprite pasted on the screen. Witha >dynamic or virtual cockpit, the cockpit moves relative to your *monitor*. >This does not happen in GPL replays, it only happens while you are actually >driving. Just watch a GPL replay and put your finger on the screen.Notice >how the cockpit does not move relative to your finger. However, the >suspension and tires do move relative to your monitor, which is what youmay

Quoted text (11 lines)

>be thinking of. > >Actually, it's kind of a confusing misnomer to call it a "dynamic cockpit", >since of course, every sim simulates a cockpit that moves relative to the >scenery. What we typically call a "dynamic cockpit" could technically be >called a "dynamic head" since it is more like simulating the drivers head >(or camera position) moving about in the cockpit. > >-A > >

Well, remember, the front suspension movement is only 4cm in GP2, and depending on your setup, 2 or 3cm of that might be filled with packers, plus the downforce is squishing the chassis down even more still, so there really shouldn't be much dive when you brake. I think GP1 exaggerates that effect to the extreme. I always had a vague impression of suspension movement in GP2, but I could be wrong. And of course, the scenery goes all over the place when you crash or bang a curb, but I don't think that's what you had in mind. :) -A "David Mocnay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:82SA5.8695$[email hidden]... > Yeah you're right ... what GP1 and ICR2 is not 'virtual cockpit' ... theygo

Quoted text (13 lines)

> a small way to simulating the dip and rise of the nose. btw, I'm sure that > GP2 does not do any of this. No matter that you do in the car, the scenery > (or cockpit) will not tilt or dip ... I remember being disappointed with > this when I used to play it. > > ""Virtual cockpit" is what GPL, GP3, CR99 and F199 have (some better > implementations then others ... of course) > > ps. I agree, calling it a 'simulation of the drivers head' is probably a > better term then 'Virtual cockpit' :-) > > Regards, > David Mocnay

> When you say "it happens" you're referring to when I said a virtualcockpit > moves relative to the screen. Like I said before, GPL definitely does not > do this during a replay. Fire up a replay, put your finger on the screen, > and you will see that I'm obviously right. This shouldn't be so > controversial. Ah yes sorry I always thought it did it only for the in-car view only on saved replays of your own client. Well going back to the point, there's two major things... both the car's movement and the player's POV movement. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.