1967 South African GP Pictures

I have posted a few pictures of the 1967 South African Grand Prix in the GPL section of my site. URL below. Chris -- Simbok Racing www.geocities.com/simbokza Remove _your_clothes before replying

Thanks, Chris. Nice shots. I like the monstrous-looking Cooper-Maserati shot and also that of Mr. Surtees getting a bit sideways in that corner....I ALWAYS end up losing it there! May I draw reader's attention to pic #3, the rear view of the two Lotus H-16 BRM-powered cars in pit lane. Obviously ready to go out for either pre-race warmup or practice. Note the angle of the half-shafts, folks! These are cars that are ready-to-roll, only requiring the driver to hop aboard, so they'd already be fueled. So much for the realistic ground clearances, drive-shaft and front suspension arm angles in GPL! :-) -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- Chris Bloom <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8rjlpm$gc$[email hidden]... > I have posted a few pictures of the 1967 South African Grand Prix in the GPL > section of my site. URL below. > > Chris > > -- > > Simbok Racing > www.geocities.com/simbokza > > Remove _your_clothes before replying > >

I'm sorry Bruce, but you are loosing me on your comments on picture #3 and GPL. Stefan Bruce Kennewell wrote:

Quoted text (36 lines)

> > Thanks, Chris. Nice shots. I like the monstrous-looking Cooper-Maserati > shot and also that of Mr. Surtees getting a bit sideways in that corner....I > ALWAYS end up losing it there! > > May I draw reader's attention to pic #3, the rear view of the two Lotus H-16 > BRM-powered cars in pit lane. Obviously ready to go out for either pre-race > warmup or practice. Note the angle of the half-shafts, folks! These are > cars that are ready-to-roll, only requiring the driver to hop aboard, so > they'd already be fueled. > > So much for the realistic ground clearances, drive-shaft and front > suspension arm angles in GPL! :-) > > -- > Regards, > Bruce Kennewell, > Canberra, Australia. > --------------------------- > > Chris Bloom <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8rjlpm$gc$[email hidden]... > > I have posted a few pictures of the 1967 South African Grand Prix in the > GPL > > section of my site. URL below. > > > > Chris > > > > -- > > > > Simbok Racing > > www.geocities.com/simbokza > > > > Remove _your_clothes before replying > > > >

Stefan, it's just a comment regarding how unrealistic the ground-clearances and suspension-angles are in GPL. If you look at the half-shafts in Pic #3, youll see that they angle *downwards* from transaxle to hub..........indicating that the car is sitting far higher off the ground than is represented in GPL. It's long been a thorn in my side that the graphical representation in GPL is incorrect....particularly with the angle of the front suspension arms and the drive-shafts. And we all know that the GC was, and still is, WAY too low. -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- Stefan Magnusson <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I'm sorry Bruce, but you are loosing me on your comments on picture #3 > and GPL. > > Stefan > > > Bruce Kennewell wrote: > > > > Thanks, Chris. Nice shots. I like the monstrous-looking Cooper-Maserati > > shot and also that of Mr. Surtees getting a bit sideways in that corner....I > > ALWAYS end up losing it there! > > > > May I draw reader's attention to pic #3, the rear view of the two Lotus H-16 > > BRM-powered cars in pit lane. Obviously ready to go out for either pre-race > > warmup or practice. Note the angle of the half-shafts, folks! These are > > cars that are ready-to-roll, only requiring the driver to hop aboard, so > > they'd already be fueled. > > > > So much for the realistic ground clearances, drive-shaft and front > > suspension arm angles in GPL! :-) > > > > -- > > Regards, > > Bruce Kennewell, > > Canberra, Australia. > > --------------------------- > > > > Chris Bloom <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:8rjlpm$gc$[email hidden]... > > > I have posted a few pictures of the 1967 South African Grand Prix in the > > GPL > > > section of my site. URL below. > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Simbok Racing > > > www.geocities.com/simbokza > > > > > > Remove _your_clothes before replying > > > > > >

I see what you mean. Can't say I thought about it very much, still to busy keeping myself away from fences, trees, and rabbits. Stefan Bruce Kennewell wrote:

Quoted text (67 lines)

> > Stefan, it's just a comment regarding how unrealistic the ground-clearances > and suspension-angles are in GPL. If you look at the half-shafts in Pic #3, > youll see that they angle *downwards* from transaxle to > hub..........indicating that the car is sitting far higher off the ground > than is represented in GPL. > > It's long been a thorn in my side that the graphical representation in GPL > is incorrect....particularly with the angle of the front suspension arms and > the drive-shafts. And we all know that the GC was, and still is, WAY too > low. > > -- > Regards, > Bruce Kennewell, > Canberra, Australia. > --------------------------- > > Stefan Magnusson <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I'm sorry Bruce, but you are loosing me on your comments on picture #3 > > and GPL. > > > > Stefan > > > > > > Bruce Kennewell wrote: > > > > > > Thanks, Chris. Nice shots. I like the monstrous-looking Cooper-Maserati > > > shot and also that of Mr. Surtees getting a bit sideways in that > corner....I > > > ALWAYS end up losing it there! > > > > > > May I draw reader's attention to pic #3, the rear view of the two Lotus > H-16 > > > BRM-powered cars in pit lane. Obviously ready to go out for either > pre-race > > > warmup or practice. Note the angle of the half-shafts, folks! These are > > > cars that are ready-to-roll, only requiring the driver to hop aboard, so > > > they'd already be fueled. > > > > > > So much for the realistic ground clearances, drive-shaft and front > > > suspension arm angles in GPL! :-) > > > > > > -- > > > Regards, > > > Bruce Kennewell, > > > Canberra, Australia. > > > --------------------------- > > > > > > Chris Bloom <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:8rjlpm$gc$[email hidden]... > > > > I have posted a few pictures of the 1967 South African Grand Prix in > the > > > GPL > > > > section of my site. URL below. > > > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Simbok Racing > > > > www.geocities.com/simbokza > > > > > > > > Remove _your_clothes before replying > > > > > > > >

Bruce Kennewell <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... <snip> > May I draw reader's attention to pic #3, the rear view of the two LotusH-16 > BRM-powered cars in pit lane. Obviously ready to go out for eitherpre-race

Quoted text (13 lines)

> warmup or practice. Note the angle of the half-shafts, folks! These are > cars that are ready-to-roll, only requiring the driver to hop aboard, so > they'd already be fueled. > > So much for the realistic ground clearances, drive-shaft and front > suspension arm angles in GPL! :-) > > -- > Regards, > Bruce Kennewell, > Canberra, Australia. > --------------------------- >

I wonder what the rake angle is. I just spent quite a while experimenting with high rake angles (1.5 to 2.0 inches) to dial out understeer before I developed my setup further. I was able to create some well behaved setups at Monza but they were just not fast enough (typically 1/2 second off my best time). Has anyone else gone down the high rake angle path and had some success?

"Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote > Stefan, it's just a comment regarding how unrealistic theground-clearances > and suspension-angles are in GPL. If you look at the half-shafts in Pic#3, > youll see that they angle *downwards* from transaxle to > hub..........indicating that the car is sitting far higher off the ground > than is represented in GPL. But there is no driver in the car Bruce. Wouldn't it lower itself considerably when he hops inside? -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

HA! I know what you mean...we've all been there. In fact, some of us are STILL there! -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- Stefan Magnusson <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I see what you mean. Can't say I thought about it very much, still to > busy keeping myself away from fences, trees, and rabbits.

Motorsport , Oktober 2000, Parting shot, Rouen 1968, pages 102-103. The half shafts of Seffi's Lotus angles slightly upwards. The remaining right one on Hills car too. Stefan Bruce Kennewell wrote:

Quoted text (44 lines)

> > Lower itself, yes. > Considerably, no....certainly not to the exaggerated angles shown in GPL, > accentuated by the unrealistic ride-height minimum. > > I'm looking at two from-the-rear pix taken at the 1969 Spanish GP of the > Lotus 49.....one has the car in the pit, sans driver, and the other is under > racing conditions. In both cases the half-shaft angles are almost > horizontal. > -- > Regards, > Bruce Kennewell, > Canberra, Australia. > --------------------------- > > ymenard <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:oe2E5.328356$[email hidden]... > > "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote > > > Stefan, it's just a comment regarding how unrealistic the > > ground-clearances > > > and suspension-angles are in GPL. If you look at the half-shafts in Pic > > #3, > > > youll see that they angle *downwards* from transaxle to > > > hub..........indicating that the car is sitting far higher off the > ground > > > than is represented in GPL. > > > > > > But there is no driver in the car Bruce. Wouldn't it lower itself > > considerably when he hops inside? > > > > > > > > > > -- > > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > > -- May the Downforce be with you... > > -- http://www.WeRace.net > > -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't > realise > > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > > > > > >

We haven't got that copy yet, Stefan. I'll have to wait for a month. But I know what you are indicating. And that's my point...they angle SLIGHTLY upwards from transaxle to hub....not acutely. Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- Stefan Magnusson <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (12 lines)

> Motorsport , Oktober 2000, Parting shot, Rouen 1968, pages 102-103. > > The half shafts of Seffi's Lotus angles slightly upwards. The remaining > right one on Hills car too. > > Stefan > > > Bruce Kennewell wrote: > > > > Lower itself, yes. > > Considerably, no....certainly not to the exaggerated angles shown in

GPL, > > accentuated by the unrealistic ride-height minimum. > > > > I'm looking at two from-the-rear pix taken at the 1969 Spanish GP of the > > Lotus 49.....one has the car in the pit, sans driver, and the other isunder

Quoted text (14 lines)

> > racing conditions. In both cases the half-shaft angles are almost > > horizontal. > > -- > > Regards, > > Bruce Kennewell, > > Canberra, Australia. > > --------------------------- > > > > ymenard <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:oe2E5.328356$[email hidden]... > > > "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote > > > > Stefan, it's just a comment regarding how unrealistic the > > > ground-clearances > > > > and suspension-angles are in GPL. If you look at the half-shafts in

Pic

Quoted text (23 lines)

> > > #3, > > > > youll see that they angle *downwards* from transaxle to > > > > hub..........indicating that the car is sitting far higher off the > > ground > > > > than is represented in GPL. > > > > > > > > > But there is no driver in the car Bruce. Wouldn't it lower itself > > > considerably when he hops inside? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > > > -- May the Downforce be with you... > > > -- http://www.WeRace.net > > > -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't > > realise > > > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > > > > > > > > >

Lower itself, yes. Considerably, no....certainly not to the exaggerated angles shown in GPL, accentuated by the unrealistic ride-height minimum. I'm looking at two from-the-rear pix taken at the 1969 Spanish GP of the Lotus 49.....one has the car in the pit, sans driver, and the other is under racing conditions. In both cases the half-shaft angles are almost horizontal. -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- ymenard <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:oe2E5.328356$[email hidden]... > "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Stefan, it's just a comment regarding how unrealistic the > ground-clearances > > and suspension-angles are in GPL. If you look at the half-shafts in Pic > #3, > > youll see that they angle *downwards* from transaxle to > > hub..........indicating that the car is sitting far higher off the ground > > than is represented in GPL. > > > But there is no driver in the car Bruce. Wouldn't it lower itself > considerably when he hops inside? > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.WeRace.net > -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > > >

Yes, they do flex a great deal though, I'm pretty busy these days, but I have some footage that shows just how much the shafts flex from pointing downwards during braking to pointing slightly upward (more drastically upward on some of the tail-heavy cars)...anyway...when I get some spare time I'll make some vid. captures for everyone who's interested. In fact if you look around on the net, you can see plenty of shots that show the two different states... Thomas Stefan Magnusson wrote:

Quoted text (53 lines)

> > Motorsport , Oktober 2000, Parting shot, Rouen 1968, pages 102-103. > > The half shafts of Seffi's Lotus angles slightly upwards. The remaining > right one on Hills car too. > > Stefan > > Bruce Kennewell wrote: > > > > Lower itself, yes. > > Considerably, no....certainly not to the exaggerated angles shown in GPL, > > accentuated by the unrealistic ride-height minimum. > > > > I'm looking at two from-the-rear pix taken at the 1969 Spanish GP of the > > Lotus 49.....one has the car in the pit, sans driver, and the other is under > > racing conditions. In both cases the half-shaft angles are almost > > horizontal. > > -- > > Regards, > > Bruce Kennewell, > > Canberra, Australia. > > --------------------------- > > > > ymenard <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:oe2E5.328356$[email hidden]... > > > "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote > > > > Stefan, it's just a comment regarding how unrealistic the > > > ground-clearances > > > > and suspension-angles are in GPL. If you look at the half-shafts in Pic > > > #3, > > > > youll see that they angle *downwards* from transaxle to > > > > hub..........indicating that the car is sitting far higher off the > > ground > > > > than is represented in GPL. > > > > > > > > > But there is no driver in the car Bruce. Wouldn't it lower itself > > > considerably when he hops inside? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > > > -- May the Downforce be with you... > > > -- http://www.WeRace.net > > > -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't > > realise > > > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > > > > > > > > >

I've experimented some with rake, mostly on the tail heavy cars such as the Cooper and Honda ...and while there are some advantages (I've broken some PB's), it gives some odd feedback....Not sure, but it may have to do with the way rollcenters are modelled in the sim.... Thomas Jim Allison wrote:

Quoted text (29 lines)

> > Bruce Kennewell <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > <snip> > > May I draw reader's attention to pic #3, the rear view of the two Lotus > H-16 > > BRM-powered cars in pit lane. Obviously ready to go out for either > pre-race > > warmup or practice. Note the angle of the half-shafts, folks! These are > > cars that are ready-to-roll, only requiring the driver to hop aboard, so > > they'd already be fueled. > > > > So much for the realistic ground clearances, drive-shaft and front > > suspension arm angles in GPL! :-) > > > > -- > > Regards, > > Bruce Kennewell, > > Canberra, Australia. > > --------------------------- > > > > I wonder what the rake angle is. I just spent quite a while experimenting > with high rake angles (1.5 to 2.0 inches) to dial out understeer before I > developed my setup further. I was able to create some well behaved setups at > Monza but they were just not fast enough (typically 1/2 second off my best > time). Has anyone else gone down the high rake angle path and had some > success?

Holy Cow! Look at that gaping maw that the Cooper-Maserati uses for the radiator opening! You could loose all manner of interesting things in there. Rocks, birds, small children, Morris Mini's...

Quoted text (14 lines)

> I have posted a few pictures of the 1967 South African Grand Prix in the GPL > section of my site. URL below. > > Chris > > -- > > Simbok Racing > www.geocities.com/simbokza > > Remove _your_clothes before replying > > >

Hey - did anyone else notice - there's no barrier in front of the pits! The first time I fired up GPL this bothered me (I seem to remember the barrier first appearing around 1971), but I've never had proof before.

"russell.whitworth" wrote: > there's no barrier in front of the pits! Imagine the poor monkeys who had to work in the pits at LeMans, pre-'72 or thereabouts -- not only was there no barrier, but the track was fairly narrow (incredibly narrow in the '50s), and here you'd have stsationary cars maybe 8-10 feet off the track, in the middle of the night, driving rain more often than not, some poor schleppos lying half under the car in a cold pool of water, rain, oil, fuel, his feet sticking practically on the racing surface, and cars going by at 150 mph or so. THAT's racin'!

"Barton Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (11 lines)

> "russell.whitworth" wrote: > > there's no barrier in front of the pits! > > Imagine the poor monkeys who had to work in the pits at LeMans, pre-'72 > or thereabouts -- not only was there no barrier, but the track was > fairly narrow (incredibly narrow in the '50s), and here you'd have > stsationary cars maybe 8-10 feet off the track, in the middle of the > night, driving rain more often than not, some poor schleppos lying half > under the car in a cold pool of water, rain, oil, fuel, his feet > sticking practically on the racing surface, and cars going by at 150 mph > or so. THAT's racin'!

Indeed -- but aren't the pits at Le Mans on a (slightly) slower part of the circuit than Kyalami? I have a feeling the old sprint "Le Mans start" was also used at Kyalami for the endurance races around this time (I went to a few, but never in view of the start), which would be rather hard to do with a pit wall! Can anyone confirm? My last attendance at Kyalami was the 9-hour race in 1973, where I was providing radio comms for the marshals at Crowthorne. Sitting on the grass bank on the outside of the bend -- it was certainly an impressive sight seeing the sports cars charging down the hill on the first lap!