Re: Benefits of Sim Racing in the Real World??

Fun game, but come on, it doesn't have a 4 point suspension model. On Sun, 5 Nov 2000 22:38:21 -0500, "Izzy..." <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> >don hodgdon <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:8u49so$nlc$[email hidden]... >> Does anyone know of any online articles or studies concerning the benefits >> of simulators in real world applications? > >I learned most of my car control and chassis dynamics from spending >hours in the video arcade playing "Hard Drivin'", an Atari video game >that featured realistic feedback, a 3-pedal setup, and an H-gate shifter >(with reverse!). I have yet to see a better driving game. > >Graphics sucked, but incredible realism. > > >

--- Tyler Eaves Visit Ultra Coaster Central! The internet's largest repository of Ultra Coaster Tracks! http://www.ultracoastercentral.com -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

A 4 point model means that each tire is modeled individually as far as grip. This gives a much more accurate driving expirece. With 4 point: Nascar 1+ GPL DTR/DTRSC Without: Early Test Drives and Need For Speeds come to mind On Mon, 6 Nov 2000 04:29:43 GMT, Doug Milliken <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> >Not quite sure what you mean by "4 point", but the follow-on game, Atari >Race Drivin', used a four wheel car model. > > >On Sun, 5 Nov 2000, Tyler Eaves wrote: > >> Fun game, but come on, it doesn't have a 4 point suspension model. > >> >> On Sun, 5 Nov 2000 22:38:21 -0500, "Izzy..." >> <[email hidden]> wrote: >> > >> >I learned most of my car control and chassis dynamics from spending >> >hours in the video arcade playing "Hard Drivin'", an Atari video game >> >that featured realistic feedback, a 3-pedal setup, and an H-gate shifter >> >(with reverse!). I have yet to see a better driving game. >> > >> >Graphics sucked, but incredible realism.

--- Tyler Eaves Visit Ultra Coaster Central! The internet's largest repository of Ultra Coaster Tracks! http://www.ultracoastercentral.com -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

Does anyone know of any online articles or studies concerning the benefits of simulators in real world applications? TIA -- don New GPL Programs for the Converted Tracks: http://www.ianparker.co.uk/gpl/bapom/ You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.

"don hodgdon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8u49so$nlc$[email hidden]... > Does anyone know of any online articles or studies concerning the benefits > of simulators in real world applications? > Nevermind...I went to my favorite search engine and typed in Training Simulators...I found almost 80,000 articles on the uses of simulators in industry, medical, military, driving and other applications. Don't you just hate it when folks answer their own posts<g>? don

Actually, I really hate when a search brings up 80,000 articles to look through! Good Luck! don hodgdon wrote:

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> "don hodgdon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8u49so$nlc$[email hidden]... > > Does anyone know of any online articles or studies concerning the benefits > > of simulators in real world applications? > > > > Nevermind...I went to my favorite search engine and typed in Training > Simulators...I found almost 80,000 articles on the uses of simulators in > industry, medical, military, driving and other applications. > > Don't you just hate it when folks answer their own posts<g>? > > don

I don't know about any official literature, but I sure as hell was glad I knew which way the track went next when I drove the Ring in my "real" car last September. I'm not sure if any of the other aspects helped. I don't know what about driving a virtual 400hp mid-engined, RWD car, can be carried arcoss to a 87hp front-engined, FWD (Front Wheel Drive) car. But knowledge of the track layout helped a lot. Jan. =--- don hodgdon wrote...

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> Does anyone know of any online articles or studies > concerning the benefits of simulators in real world > applications? > > TIA > > -- > don > > New GPL Programs for the Converted Tracks: > http://www.ianparker.co.uk/gpl/bapom/ > > You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be > misquoted, then used against you. > > > >

Uwe Schuerkamp wrote...

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> <snip> > I agree with Jan here. I had the "honor" to do three laps > at the ring (one at the wheel, one in the passengers seat > and another one in the so called "Renntaxi", a sports-car > type Alfa driven by a real-life Porsche Cup driver nicknamed > "stippi") a couple of weeks ago (pics are here: > http://www.schuerkamp.de/ring/) courtesy of Sun Microsystems, > and the first couple of laps we had to follow our instructor > who drove an Alfa Romeo.

I did it the normal way, paid 85dm to do 5 laps, with me driving. I am envious though, it must be quite a hoot to be in one of those Renntaxi's (the trip was arranged too hastely for me to inform about that). We were passed by a couple (BMW M5's) when we were there... allthough most people there had faster cars, the Rentaxi's had a faster closure rate than nearly anything out there. I get the impression from the pictures there was fairly little or no other traffic present, which I'm also quite envious of. It's not easy to get any sort of speed up when you constantly having to watch out not to get a motorcycle embedded in your boot lid and/or trying to keep out of the way of faster cars. I had never imagined it to be _that_ busy (I was there 24-09-2000)

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> We were stuck with a hopelessly underpowered Fiat Tipo, but > knowing the track sure helped maximising exit speed and not > scrubbing off too much in the turns. As we followed the > instructors car directly behind I was able to "dictate" the > pace of the lap by trying to keep up with him, and everybody > in our group said that the second lap (when my boss was > driving who did not know the track from GPL) was "considerably > slower" than the first.

I too found out the hard way a Nissan Almera 1.4GX is hopelessy undermotorized for the Ring. From Bergwerk through Kesselchen and up to Angstcurve I was unable to get up to 130kph and after Angstcurve it actually started to slow down, forcing me to downshift! -Having a 120kg+ passenger didn't help things much, but he finally talked me into going, so I do not begrudge that... much. ;-) What kind of time did you manage? I had a best lap of 14min30s, but as I had to pull off and rejoin the track in the middle of the Dottinger Hohe every lap it will be hard to compare. > Also, the instructor ("Carlo" ;-) was familiar with GPL and gave me a > pat on the back for my 8m24s in the Lotus, noting that this was "quite > a fast time" ;-) He said that the track in GPL is modelled very > realistically to the real "Nordschleife". Of course, I took this > as a sign of excellence for the driving school... Yes, the track's extremely well done (and 8m24s *is* a good time, BTW), but then again, the track hasn't changed much. The only really noticeble modern change is the flattening out of the crest leading to Adenauer Forst. That kind of threw my friend as he expected more room to be available for braking after the top of the hill before the combination. Luckily, I had taken a mental note of this change from our reconnaissance lap, otherwise the tens of spectators there would have had "schadenfreude" at my expense. <g> I got most of it on tape... I will post a link if and when I get it captured (already borrowed a video capture card, but haven't figured out how to use it yet). Jan. =---

On Sun, 5 Nov 2000 10:47:15 -0800, "don hodgdon" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Does anyone know of any online articles or studies concerning the benefits >of simulators in real world applications? > >TIA Do you mind a real-life experience instead of an article from the Internet? I was drafted to drive a super late model on asphalt short tracks . . . 3/8ths mile. I had no experience in the type and no experience with the amount of power (the owner told me 550-600) I bought N3 and spent a lot of time at the banked short tracks (south boston, hickory) and learned a lot. The first time I had the car on the track I immediately knew that the car wasn't loose exiting turn four . . . it was spinning the wheels. A problem that I had already learned and corrected on N3. The result was a very rapid climb up the learning curve and the ability to start turning competitive lap times very quickly. The only issue I had with the sim was that it allows only the maximum winston cup corner weights and I could not duplicate the actual setup of the race car (60% left, 51% rear, 55% wedge) Cheers Diamondcutter N3, DTR user No. 32 Swiss Hutless/Yamaha 100 kart No. 45 Howe/Chevrolet late model _____________________ Complaints? Can't hear you over these engines! ______________________

don hodgdon heeft geschreven in bericht <8u49so$nlc$[email hidden]>... >Does anyone know of any online articles or studies concerning thebenefits >of simulators in real world applications? > A good article about the subject can be found here http://www.hyperstim.com/home_units/news/vail_ff_day.html It's about a GPL driver invited to drive a Formula Ford Hans -- Ultimate GPL Linkspage http://users.bart.nl/~hansvd/links.html

don hodgdon <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8u49so$nlc$[email hidden]... > Does anyone know of any online articles or studies concerning the benefits > of simulators in real world applications? I learned most of my car control and chassis dynamics from spending hours in the video arcade playing "Hard Drivin'", an Atari video game that featured realistic feedback, a 3-pedal setup, and an H-gate shifter (with reverse!). I have yet to see a better driving game. Graphics sucked, but incredible realism.

Not quite sure what you mean by "4 point", but the follow-on game, Atari Race Drivin', used a four wheel car model. On Sun, 5 Nov 2000, Tyler Eaves wrote:

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> Fun game, but come on, it doesn't have a 4 point suspension model. > > On Sun, 5 Nov 2000 22:38:21 -0500, "Izzy..." > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > >I learned most of my car control and chassis dynamics from spending > >hours in the video arcade playing "Hard Drivin'", an Atari video game > >that featured realistic feedback, a 3-pedal setup, and an H-gate shifter > >(with reverse!). I have yet to see a better driving game. > > > >Graphics sucked, but incredible realism.

Me too, "Hard Drivin" and "Race Drivin" taught me how to drive a stick shift! Great game!

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>I learned most of my car control and chassis dynamics from spending >hours in the video arcade playing "Hard Drivin'", an Atari video game >that featured realistic feedback, a 3-pedal setup, and an H-gate shifter >(with reverse!). I have yet to see a better driving game. > >Graphics sucked, but incredible realism. > >

Todd Wasson --- Performance Simulations Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction Software http://PerformanceSimulations.Com

>"Doug Milliken" <[email hidden]> wrote > Not quite sure what you mean by "4 point", but the follow-on game, Atari > Race Drivin', used a four wheel car model. By the way I was checking some arcade archives and I saw some picture and information about the Hard'Drivin game engine modeled into some sort of "Air'Drivin" title that never got released. It consisted in the same game engine and game style but it modeled aircrafts. You guys had anything to do with that? Why was it never released? -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net

In article <[email hidden]>, Jan Verschueren <[email hidden]> wrote: >I don't know about any official literature, but I sure as hell was glad I >knew which way the track went next when I drove the Ring in my "real" car >last September. > I agree with Jan here. I had the "honor" to do three laps at the ring (one at the wheel, one in the passengers seat and another one in the so called "Renntaxi", a sports-car type Alfa driven by a real-life Porsche Cup driver nicknamed "stippi") a couple of weeks ago (pics are here: http://www.schuerkamp.de/ring/) courtesy of Sun Microsystems, and the first couple of laps we had to follow our instructor who drove an Alfa Romeo. We were stuck with a hopelessly underpowered Fiat Tipo, but knowing the track sure helped maximising exit speed and not scrubbing off too much in the turns. As we followed the instructors car directly behind I was able to "dictate" the pace of the lap by trying to keep up with him, and everybody in our group said that the second lap (when my boss was driving who did not know the track from GPL) was "considerably slower" than the first. Also, the instructor ("Carlo" ;-) was familiar with GPL and gave me a pat on the back for my 8m24s in the Lotus, noting that this was "quite a fast time" ;-) He said that the track in GPL is modelled very realistically to the real "Nordschleife". Of course, I took this as a sign of excellence for the driving school... Cheers for now, Uwe -- Uwe Schuerkamp http://www.schuerkamp.de/ GnuPG Fingerprint: 2093 20B8 B861 9358 A356 B01A E145 9249 5D27 33EA PGP Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

Try 355 Challenge in full sim-mode (the arcade with the 3 screens). That sim gave me an experience I never felt before. You actually have to look left when a car is passing you (on your left side..duh...) you can't even get the car in gear without using the clutch (the gearbox has some sort of FF) the control. The brake pedal is pressure sensitive like a real one, which is something totally different to modulate than our PC pedals. it gave me a feeling of actually driving a real car. It's much harder to race than I expected. There are much more thing to do than in gpl or any other known pc-sim. The controls feel like a real car (except for the wheel, that's a little bit too small) It's a perfect sim for learning left foot braking in real life too. I wish I had an arcade like that at home! It beats Hard-Drivin like gpl beats Outrun! Izzy... <[email hidden]> schreef in berichtnieuws YSpN5.1138$[email hidden]... > > don hodgdon <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8u49so$nlc$[email hidden]... > > Does anyone know of any online articles or studies concerning thebenefits

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> > of simulators in real world applications? > > I learned most of my car control and chassis dynamics from spending > hours in the video arcade playing "Hard Drivin'", an Atari video game > that featured realistic feedback, a 3-pedal setup, and an H-gate shifter > (with reverse!). I have yet to see a better driving game. > > Graphics sucked, but incredible realism. > > > >

Andy Laurence <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:1oQN5.1083$[email hidden]...

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> > Jan... the puny little Mini Coopers of the 1960s were turning sub-11s on > the > > full circuit. Back to your computer for more practise! > > You've never driven a full blooded Mini Cooper in race spec, have you! > They're faster than you'd imagine ... not that I'm biased :-) > > Of course, they did have the benefit of proper experienced racing drivers! > > Andy

My response to Jan was, of course, tongue in cheek. And you're right; with the predominantly low-speed corners of the 'Ring, the Mini would have not been at such a disadvantage. However, it would have been amazing to see the bigger cars eat it up on that final straight (only to have the little bugger come around by the middle of the next lap). Stephen

They probably didn't have to stop for accidents and/or depend on the cars for transport back home from the circuit and to work on Monday morning. <g> And, like Andy says, they were driven by proper race drivers (talented ones to boot). On a clean lap I could problably have taken about 30 secs of my time, while keeping the same safety margin. In one of those racing Mini's, after some practise I think my personal limit would come in at about 12 mins. I realised a long time ago I was not good enough to be a real race driver, hence my shift to the virtual arena. That said, I'm not good enough for that either, but it's cheap enough to keep doing it. Jan. =--- Stephen Ferguson wrote...

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> <snip> > Jan... the puny little Mini Coopers of the 1960s were turning > sub-11s on the full circuit. Back to your computer for more > practise! > > :-) > > Stephen > (who would probably take half a day to get around) > >

I've been a fan to F355 Challenge every since it came out last year too, hasn't been playing much lately but I too agree that it's the best sim available at the moment. It's the only acarde which *require* heel & toeing in order to obtain better time too and real gated shifting too. The car react like it should to the very minor details too. I have no idea how good is the DC version, but without the clutch and the 3 screens, I just couldn't justify getting a DC to find out :) Tim Vanhee wrote:

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> > Try 355 Challenge in full sim-mode (the arcade with the 3 screens). That sim > gave me an experience I never felt before. You actually have to look left > when a car is passing you (on your left side..duh...) you can't even get the > car in gear without using the clutch (the gearbox has some sort of FF) the > control. The brake pedal is pressure sensitive like a real one, which is > something totally different to modulate than our PC pedals. it gave me a > feeling of actually driving a real car. It's much harder to race than I > expected. There are much more thing to do than in gpl or any other known > pc-sim. The controls feel like a real car (except for the wheel, that's a > little bit too small) It's a perfect sim for learning left foot braking in > real life too. I wish I had an arcade like that at home! > It beats Hard-Drivin like gpl beats Outrun! > > Izzy... <[email hidden]> schreef in berichtnieuws > YSpN5.1138$[email hidden]... > > > > don hodgdon <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:8u49so$nlc$[email hidden]... > > > Does anyone know of any online articles or studies concerning the > benefits > > > of simulators in real world applications? > > > > I learned most of my car control and chassis dynamics from spending > > hours in the video arcade playing "Hard Drivin'", an Atari video game > > that featured realistic feedback, a 3-pedal setup, and an H-gate shifter > > (with reverse!). I have yet to see a better driving game. > > > > Graphics sucked, but incredible realism. > > > > > > > >

Excellent link thanks....great story. PAPA DOC

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>A good article about the subject can be found here >http://www.hyperstim.com/home_units/news/vail_ff_day.html > >It's about a GPL driver invited to drive a Formula Ford > > >Hans >-- >Ultimate GPL Linkspage >http://users.bart.nl/~hansvd/links.html >

Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand Flanker Target Grand Prix Legends Crash Test Dummy Rants, Bullshit and Help Guides availible at www.papadoc.net

Jan Verschueren <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > I too found out the hard way a Nissan Almera 1.4GX is hopelessy > undermotorized for the Ring. From Bergwerk through Kesselchen and up to > Angstcurve I was unable to get up to 130kph and after Angstcurve itactually > started to slow down, forcing me to downshift! -Having a 120kg+ passenger > didn't help things much, but he finally talked me into going, so I do not > begrudge that... much. ;-) > > What kind of time did you manage? I had a best lap of 14min30s, but as Ihad > to pull off and rejoin the track in the middle of the Dottinger Hohe every > lap it will be hard to compare. > Jan... the puny little Mini Coopers of the 1960s were turning sub-11s on the full circuit. Back to your computer for more practise! :-) Stephen (who would probably take half a day to get around)

> Jan... the puny little Mini Coopers of the 1960s were turning sub-11s onthe > full circuit. Back to your computer for more practise! You've never driven a full blooded Mini Cooper in race spec, have you! They're faster than you'd imagine ... not that I'm biased :-) Of course, they did have the benefit of proper experienced racing drivers! Andy -- Visit my site... http://mail.wm-europe.com/~andrew/ Read about my Mini... http://mail.wm-europe.com/~andrew/mini/ Use console pads on a PC ... http://www.consolepads.co.uk 265+ music videos and DC games ... http://mail.wm-europe.com/~andrew/ftp.html

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> >Does anyone know of any online articles or studies concerning the > benefits > >of simulators in real world applications? > > A good article about the subject can be found here > http://www.hyperstim.com/home_units/news/vail_ff_day.html > > It's about a GPL driver invited to drive a Formula Ford

Any ideas what software they use for this? Andy -- Visit my site... http://mail.wm-europe.com/~andrew/ Read about my Mini... http://mail.wm-europe.com/~andrew/mini/ Use console pads on a PC ... http://www.consolepads.co.uk 265+ music videos and DC games ... http://mail.wm-europe.com/~andrew/ftp.html

In article <[email hidden]>, Jan Verschueren <[email hidden]> wrote: > >I did it the normal way, paid 85dm to do 5 laps, with me driving. I am >envious though, it must be quite a hoot to be in one of those Renntaxi's >(the trip was arranged too hastely for me to inform about that). We were The Renntaxi was the biggest blast I have had in my life (racing wise). Driving the ring yourself is fun, but having a prof doing the driving is oustanding. After the first couple of turns into Hatzenbach I was sure I would not get ouf of this coffin on wheels alive, but before "Quiddelbacher H�he" I had a feeling for how much "stippi" was trusting his car, and from then on I actually enjoyed the trip. Crazy crazy stuff, and absolutely breathtaking. >there had faster cars, the Rentaxi's had a faster closure rate than nearly >anything out there. You are absolutely correct. ;-) We had a funny incident coming out of Bergwerk into Kesselchen. "Stippi" explained that "driving a race car it's very very important to get a good exit here to take as much speed as possible up into Kesselchen", and right in front of us was some kind of Mercedes driven by an older bloke, not really slow, but still he saw that Stippi was going much faster and pulled over to the right off the line to let us through. Stippi, being the racer that he is, did nothing to calm down the guy and closed in as close as possible to the Benz, pulling out at the last possible moment to "get a bit of a draft"! >I get the impression from the pictures there was fairly >little or no other traffic present, which I'm also quite envious of. It's Yep, it was a late Thursday evening, and Carlo said that it was unusually quiet that evening.

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>not easy to get any sort of speed up when you constantly having to watch out >not to get a motorcycle embedded in your boot lid and/or trying to keep out >of the way of faster cars. I had never imagined it to be _that_ busy (I was >there 24-09-2000) >Angstcurve I was unable to get up to 130kph and after Angstcurve it actually >started to slow down, forcing me to downshift! -Having a 120kg+ passenger >didn't help things much, but he finally talked me into going, so I do not >begrudge that... much. ;-) >

Yep, in that section it's "flat out" for your normal road car all the way, very true ;-) >What kind of time did you manage? I had a best lap of 14min30s, but as I had >to pull off and rejoin the track in the middle of the Dottinger Hohe every >lap it will be hard to compare. > Well, we did not time the laps. This being my first time at the ring was just too exciting to keep track of the lap time, and having an instructor in front and a trail of cars from our group behind didn't help much, either... > >Yes, the track's extremely well done (and 8m24s *is* a good time, BTW), but Managed a 8m14 a couple of days ago. Felt like heaven ;-) >I got most of it on tape... I will post a link if and when I get it captured >(already borrowed a video capture card, but haven't figured out how to use >it yet). Yeah, that would be cool. Have you seen all those 80mb+ motorcycle lap mpegs of the ring? Incredible driving. Cheers for now, Uwe -- Uwe Schuerkamp http://www.schuerkamp.de/ GnuPG Fingerprint: 2093 20B8 B861 9358 A356 B01A E145 9249 5D27 33EA PGP Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, ymenard wrote:

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> >"Doug Milliken" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Not quite sure what you mean by "4 point", but the follow-on game, Atari > > Race Drivin', used a four wheel car model. > > > By the way I was checking some arcade archives and I saw some picture and > information about the Hard'Drivin game engine modeled into some sort of > "Air'Drivin" title that never got released. It consisted in the same game > engine and game style but it modeled aircrafts. You guys had anything to do > with that? Why was it never released?

As I recall (only tried it a few times), it was a kind of car-glider -- you drive fast, then pull back on the wheel and get airborne for awhile. Not sure why Atari didn't produce it but there are lots of reasons for making/not-making a particular game.

On Sun, 5 Nov 2000, Tyler Eaves wrote: > A 4 point model means that each tire is modeled individually as far as > grip. This gives a much more accurate driving expirece. Funny term -- why not just say 4 tires? Better yet, count the dynamic degrees-of-freedom, the things that are integrated every time step -- 6 dof for the body (3 linear, 3 rotations), 4 dof for wheel ride (suspension) and 4 dof for wheel rotation (drive & brake). Atari "Race Drivin'" had these, plus some others to handle the engine and transmission. ---------

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> With 4 point: > Nascar 1+ > GPL > DTR/DTRSC > > Without: > Early Test Drives and Need For Speeds come to mind > > On Mon, 6 Nov 2000 04:29:43 GMT, Doug Milliken > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >Not quite sure what you mean by "4 point", but the follow-on game, Atari > >Race Drivin', used a four wheel car model. > > > > > >On Sun, 5 Nov 2000, Tyler Eaves wrote: > > > >> Fun game, but come on, it doesn't have a 4 point suspension model. > > > >> > >> On Sun, 5 Nov 2000 22:38:21 -0500, "Izzy..." > >> <[email hidden]> wrote: > >> > > >> >I learned most of my car control and chassis dynamics from spending > >> >hours in the video arcade playing "Hard Drivin'", an Atari video game > >> >that featured realistic feedback, a 3-pedal setup, and an H-gate shifter > >> >(with reverse!). I have yet to see a better driving game. > >> > > >> >Graphics sucked, but incredible realism. > > --- > Tyler Eaves > > Visit Ultra Coaster Central! > The internet's largest repository > of Ultra Coaster Tracks! > > http://www.ultracoastercentral.com > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- > >

Izzy... <[email hidden]> wrote: >I learned most of my car control and chassis dynamics from spending >hours in the video arcade playing "Hard Drivin'", an Atari video game >that featured realistic feedback, a 3-pedal setup, and an H-gate shifter >(with reverse!). I have yet to see a better driving game. >Graphics sucked, but incredible realism. FYI, Hard Drivin' is emulated in the latest MAME beta. The emulation still has some problems and you need a real fast computer, though. http://www.mame.net S.T.U.N Runner is working quite fine BTW Mathis

In article <[email hidden]>, "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> writes: >Luckily, I had taken a >mental note of this change from our reconnaissance lap, otherwise the tens >of spectators there would have had "schadenfreude" at my expense. <g> "Schadenfreude"? Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +49.12 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

To laugh at someone elses misfortune Jan. =--- EldredP wrote...

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> <snip> > > "Schadenfreude"? > > Eldred > -- > Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPL hcp. +49.12 > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats

you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EldredP wrote:

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> > In article <[email hidden]>, "Jan Verschueren" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Luckily, I had taken a > >mental note of this change from our reconnaissance lap, otherwise the tens > >of spectators there would have had "schadenfreude" at my expense. <g> > > "Schadenfreude"?

Damage, according to Babelfish. Not that I put a *lot* of stock in The Fish, mind you... <g> -- Chuck Kandler A man is no less a Slave just because he is allowed to choose a new Master every four years. Registered Linux User #180746 http://counter.li.org

Jan Verschueren wrote: > > To laugh at someone elses misfortune OK. That explains the rest of Babelfish's definition. It said "Damage joy". I thought maybe it was a choice, & damage fit in this context. Your explanation makes it all fall into place. -- Chuck Kandler A man is no less a Slave just because he is allowed to choose a new Master every four years. Registered Linux User #180746 http://counter.li.org

In article <[email hidden]>, "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>To laugh at someone elses misfortune > >Jan. >=--- >EldredP wrote... >> <snip> >> >> "Schadenfreude"? >>

Ah. Danke, Jan.. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +49.12 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.