GPL: +ve rank? want demon setups? (Elded & Maxx)

Here are some sections of another round of discussions between Eldred and Maxx. This time discussing setups. [ELDRED] I usually use Alison's settings, or Roland's [Ehnstrom] [MAXX] I've not tried or looked at Rolands, but did use Alisons for quite a while and certainly these are capable of achieving Papyrus Benchmark times and perhaps a little more. I imagine Rolands will be very different from Alisons, as many of the real hotshoes use very radical diff settings that almost "drive the car for you". They do demand a different driving style, still using all the basic stuff in GPLEGS but you have to be very precise with brake+throttle and use them together to get anywhere, and you really need to build up to them. If you want some sample laps, let me know, I'm not talking Huttu here now Eldred, you will learn more at this stage from the guy who is 1 sec faster, than the guy who is 4 seconds faster. [ELDRED] Got a 1:30 at Silverstone, 1:28 at Monza, or 1:06 at Watkins? :) [MAXX] Discussing the default setups. There seems to be a lot of negativity about the default setups, and people, even at +200 Rank asking questions about where they can get good setups. The default setups are what was used to set the Papy times in the first place, and are meant to be easy to get to grips with. Allisons revised setups are generally just refinements of these and not that different. [ELDRED] I find that hard to believe. I really don't think the default replays were set with the default setups. Just a hunch...<g> [MAXX] I'm not sure, but I feel I can match Papy times, with the default setups. If I get some time, I may give it a try on a few tracks. ** Maxx sets some time aside to test this theory and replies [MAXX] Eldred, I decided to try and run a couple of tracks with the default setups and see what times were possible. I have saved the replays which are discussed here, they are in the attached file DEFS.ZIP which is 1Mb in size. Again, as I think this is really useful stuff, I'd like to post it to r.a.s. but so that anyone reading can get hold of the replays if they want I would also like you to put them up on your site (as I don't have one). --------------------------------------------------------- UPDATE: DEFS.ZIP "will" be on Eldreds site from Monday : http://www.umich.edu/~epickett If you really want them sooner, you could try emailing me at mailto:[email hidden] or check alt.binaries.simulators.autos, I'll post it there also but binary groups are often not carried and if they are, unreliable. ------------------------------------------------------ Making no excuses but a) this was pretty early on, on a Sunday morning after a late night before b) I've not run F1s since last weekend (been running F2s) and c) not driven at 2 of the 3 tracks I used WG & Monza for at least 2-3 or more weeks. First up I tried Watkins Glen, took the default setup. I put enough fuel in for 6-7 laps, and lowered the steering ratio to 12:1 (my preference, as I turn speed-sensitive steering off). The first session was pretty untidy, ending on lap 3 with a roll, so I started again. on the 2nd lap of this 2nd session I did a 1:06.33, 3rd lap a 1:06.27 (both well under the Papy time of 1:06.91. I was driving a little aggresively though and neither of the two laps were what I'd call good (poor line/balance etc.) I started another session and put in 3 consecutive laps of 1:06.48/1:06.35 and 1:05.57, this 3rd lap, although pretty quick, still had errors and was not that tidy. I was in a hotlap setting mindset, so not leaving much margin for error. I then did another session, where my plan was to brake very early and take it very easy, leaving, IMO, plenty of margin for error. This had 3 consecutive laps of 1:06.61/1:06.82 and 1:06.51, all very sedate and all with obvious errors, even to the casual, GPLEGS aware, observer. In about 20 timed laps, 8 where under the Papy benchmark (I think a one or two more may have been also, but I was looking for consecutive ones) and one was over 1.3 seconds quicker. I then tried Silverstone. I'd run this about 10 days ago, plus I was now getting warmed up. Took the default setup again and on my first and only 4 lap session I did a 1:30.51 3rd lap and a 1:28.85 4th lap. There are still obvious errors in both laps, even the 1:28.85, even though it is over 2 secs quicker than the Papy time. I then tried Monza. In total doing an 8 lap session (poss 2 x 4s I think). Lap 3 was 1:29.88, lap 8 was 1:29.34. In both Curva Grande was very messy, as was Lesmo 2 (which as you know is v.important). Lap 8's L2 was better although followed by a poor Ascari and hampered by a poor run out of Parabolica on the previous lap. It was the better L2 that led to the better lap time. I've no doubt had I put in another 6-8 laps I would have got into the high 1:28s, although the gearing is not to my taste with the default setup and I have driven more responsive setups. In short then the default setups ARE well capable of beating the Papy benchmarks, and by quite some way, 1.3 secs+ at WG, 2secs+ at Silverstone and almost 1sec at Monza. The only technique I'm using which is not heavily covered in GPLEGS is trail-braking and I think without using it, I could still match the Papy times. The default setups are meant to be easy to drive and fairly neutral, (in fact they understeer quite badly, but this is easier to handle for the less experienced driver). The requirement for a good setup is to allow you to feel totally in control of the car, only when you are very, very close to that should you start moving things around. You could jump straight in and use other peoples setups, but they may be very difficult to control and learn, and in fact, may hinder your progress. The advantage with the default setups is you have the replays to go with them (if they were in fact done with the default setups, I don't know). At least you can then see what gear you should be in, what line works for that setups, what revs you should be pulling as you go under the bridge etc. There is very little opportunity for you to pick up replays and setups for laptimes that are in your grasp, and that, with basic skills, you can control effectively. Whilst I'm not advocating that everyone stick with the defaults until they get to a 0.0 rank, I do feel that you would progress quicker this way than using odd setups from various different individuals at each track etc., this is definitely a bad idea. By all means use Allisons, which are still very neutral and very driveable, but stick to hers at all circuits. I personally don't feel I am able to detect subtle setup changes, nor do I fully understand what I should be feeling, if I did alter the toe-in, or make slight camber changes. I can appreciate roll-bar stiffness and wheel (spring) rates but I'd be hard pushed to notice subtle changes in either of these. If you can then great, but if you are the wrong side of the Papy benchmark, then forget playing with setups, your technique is still not developed enough. Maybe, if you are struggling, banging your head against the proverbial brick-wall, switch back to the default setups, see how you go. I was surprised at how much "better" the Silverstone setup was than some I'd tried, and the WG one. Comments welcomed as always. Maxx NOTE: The laps in DEFS.ZIP where produced to illustrate a point, and done in a very short space of time, all have errors so please do not treat these as anything special. In case you missed it, the whole point of the above is not to show how good I AM, but how good the default setups are, and that IMO, if your +ve Rank and want to be lower, you'd be better off spending time on practicing technique, than fiddling with setups. Now before all you setup guys start flaming, fiddling with setups is great experience and well worth doing, as is trying other peoples BUT, it is not the quickest way to zero Rank. IMHO.

Maxx <[email hidden]> wrote: > Here are some sections of another round of discussions between Eldred > and Maxx. This time discussing setups. <schnip> > where they can get good setups. The default setups are what > was used to set the Papy times in the first place, and are meant > to be easy to get to grips with. There is one thing about the default setups that makes them dislikeable (is that a word?): they aren't similar. When you commit to one car, say, a Ferrari, and drive around the tracks using the default setups, you can't get the best feel of the car because of it. What I did to get around it was simply to choose one setup (I picked Rouen), copy it to all track setup directories and use it as it is, except for gear lengths. This way I got a car that responds consistently at each track. Just my FIM 0.02. +Cinquo

Maxx wrote... <snip> > The advantage with the default setups is you have the replays to go > with them (if they were in fact done with the default setups, I don't > know).<snip> They were not. Papy developed new default setups for the 1.103 patch, which introduced a new minimum 2.5" ride height (as opposed to 1"). Here's an excerpt of the 1.1 readme file: _________________________________________________________ 8. NEW DEFAULT CAR SETUPS ---------------------------- New default car setups for all of the Grand Prix cars are included. The original default setups are, generally, faster when driven by an experienced driver than these new setups. The new setups are, generally, more forgiving for inexperienced drivers and, within a given chassis type, have a more consistent "feel" from track to track. _________________________________________________________ Jussi

I'm not going to get scientific here , but I have a negative handicap and I always use the default setups with the fuel dropped , or any other setup really , I really recommmend you worry about getting your line right and the power down , more than wheel rates etc , all the best from blighty , john Maxx <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > Here are some sections of another round of discussions between Eldred > and Maxx. This time discussing setups. > > [ELDRED] > I usually use Alison's settings, or Roland's [Ehnstrom] > > [MAXX] > I've not tried or looked at Rolands, but did use Alisons for quite a > while and certainly these are capable of achieving Papyrus Benchmark > times and perhaps a little more. > > I imagine Rolands will be very different from Alisons, as many of the > real hotshoes use very radical diff settings that almost "drive the > car for you". They do demand a different driving style, still using > all the basic stuff in GPLEGS but you have to be very precise with > brake+throttle and use them together to get anywhere, and you really > need to build up to them. > > If you want some sample laps, let me know, I'm not talking Huttu here > now Eldred, you will learn more at this stage from the guy who is 1 > sec faster, than the guy who is 4 seconds faster. > > [ELDRED] > Got a 1:30 at Silverstone, 1:28 at Monza, or 1:06 at Watkins? :) > > [MAXX] Discussing the default setups. > > There seems to be a lot of negativity about the default > setups, and people, even at +200 Rank asking questions about > where they can get good setups. The default setups are what > was used to set the Papy times in the first place, and are meant > to be easy to get to grips with. > > Allisons revised setups are generally just refinements of these and > not that different. > > [ELDRED] > I find that hard to believe. I really don't think the default replays > were set with the default setups. Just a hunch...<g> > > [MAXX] > I'm not sure, but I feel I can match Papy times, with the default > setups. If I get some time, I may give it a try on a few tracks. > > ** Maxx sets some time aside to test this theory and replies > > [MAXX] > > Eldred, > > I decided to try and run a couple of tracks with the default setups > and see what times were possible. > > I have saved the replays which are discussed here, they are in the > attached file DEFS.ZIP which is 1Mb in size. > > Again, as I think this is really useful stuff, I'd like to post it to > r.a.s. but so that anyone reading can get hold of the replays if they > want I would also like you to put them up on your site (as I don't > have one). > > --------------------------------------------------------- > UPDATE: DEFS.ZIP "will" be on Eldreds site from Monday : > http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > If you really want them sooner, you could try emailing me > at mailto:[email hidden] > or check alt.binaries.simulators.autos, I'll post it there also > but binary groups are often not carried and if they are, > unreliable. > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Making no excuses but a) this was pretty early on, on a Sunday morning > after a late night before b) I've not run F1s since last weekend (been > running F2s) and c) not driven at 2 of the 3 tracks I used WG & Monza > for at least 2-3 or more weeks. > > First up I tried Watkins Glen, took the default setup. I put enough > fuel in for 6-7 laps, and lowered the steering ratio to 12:1 (my > preference, as I turn speed-sensitive steering off). > > The first session was pretty untidy, ending on lap 3 with a roll, so I > started again. on the 2nd lap of this 2nd session I did a 1:06.33, 3rd > lap a 1:06.27 (both well under the Papy time of 1:06.91. I was driving > a little aggresively though and neither of the two laps were what I'd > call good (poor line/balance etc.) > > I started another session and put in 3 consecutive laps of > 1:06.48/1:06.35 and 1:05.57, this 3rd lap, although pretty quick, > still had errors and was not that tidy. I was in a hotlap setting > mindset, so not leaving much margin for error. > > I then did another session, where my plan was to brake very early > and take it very easy, leaving, IMO, plenty of margin for error. This > had 3 consecutive laps of 1:06.61/1:06.82 and 1:06.51, all very > sedate and all with obvious errors, even to the casual, GPLEGS > aware, observer. > > In about 20 timed laps, 8 where under the Papy benchmark (I think a > one or two more may have been also, but I was looking for consecutive > ones) and one was over 1.3 seconds quicker. > > I then tried Silverstone. I'd run this about 10 days ago, plus I was > now getting warmed up. Took the default setup again and on my first > and only 4 lap session I did a 1:30.51 3rd lap and a 1:28.85 4th lap. > > There are still obvious errors in both laps, even the 1:28.85, even > though it is over 2 secs quicker than the Papy time. > > I then tried Monza. In total doing an 8 lap session (poss 2 x 4s I > think). Lap 3 was 1:29.88, lap 8 was 1:29.34. In both Curva Grande was > very messy, as was Lesmo 2 (which as you know is v.important). Lap 8's > L2 was better although followed by a poor Ascari and hampered by a > poor run out of Parabolica on the previous lap. It was the better L2 > that led to the better lap time. > > I've no doubt had I put in another 6-8 laps I would have got into the > high 1:28s, although the gearing is not to my taste with the default > setup and I have driven more responsive setups. > > In short then the default setups ARE well capable of beating the Papy > benchmarks, and by quite some way, 1.3 secs+ at WG, 2secs+ at > Silverstone and almost 1sec at Monza. > > The only technique I'm using which is not heavily covered in GPLEGS is > trail-braking and I think without using it, I could still match the > Papy times. > > The default setups are meant to be easy to drive and fairly neutral, > (in fact they understeer quite badly, but this is easier to handle for > the less experienced driver). > > The requirement for a good setup is to allow you to feel totally in > control of the car, only when you are very, very close to that should > you start moving things around. You could jump straight in and use > other peoples setups, but they may be very difficult to control and > learn, and in fact, may hinder your progress. > > The advantage with the default setups is you have the replays to go > with them (if they were in fact done with the default setups, I don't > know). > > At least you can then see what gear you should be in, what line works > for that setups, what revs you should be pulling as you go under the > bridge etc. > > There is very little opportunity for you to pick up replays and setups > for laptimes that are in your grasp, and that, with basic skills, you > can control effectively. > > Whilst I'm not advocating that everyone stick with the defaults until > they get to a 0.0 rank, I do feel that you would progress quicker this > way than using odd setups from various different individuals at each > track etc., this is definitely a bad idea. By all means use Allisons, > which are still very neutral and very driveable, but stick to hers at > all circuits. > > I personally don't feel I am able to detect subtle setup changes, nor > do I fully understand what I should be feeling, if I did alter the > toe-in, or make slight camber changes. I can appreciate roll-bar > stiffness and wheel (spring) rates but I'd be hard pushed to notice > subtle changes in either of these. > > If you can then great, but if you are the wrong side of the Papy > benchmark, then forget playing with setups, your technique is still > not developed enough. > > Maybe, if you are struggling, banging your head against the proverbial > brick-wall, switch back to the default setups, see how you go. I was > surprised at how much "better" the Silverstone setup was than > some I'd tried, and the WG one. > > Comments welcomed as always. > > Maxx > > NOTE: The laps in DEFS.ZIP where produced to illustrate a > point, and done in a very short space of time, all have errors > so please do not treat these as anything special. > > In case you missed it, the whole point of the above is not to > show how good I AM, but how good the default setups are, > and that IMO, if your +ve Rank and want to be lower, you'd > be better off spending time on practicing technique, than fiddling > with setups. > > Now before all you setup guys start flaming, fiddling with > setups is great experience and well worth doing, as is trying > other peoples BUT, it is not the quickest way to zero Rank. > IMHO.

Eldred, Maxx, To the best of my knowledge, there was no connection between the default setups and the replays on the CD, although since none of either were mine, I could be wrong. We beta testers discussed "beginners" setups, but we were never able to agree on what would work best, so each of the 'sample' laps in the replays were set by individual beta testers (like Alison and Doug Arnao) driving with their own individual setups AFAIK. The default setups were provided by Papyrus, and none of the beta testers could seem to agree on what was wrong...or right...about them. Bottom line: the 'sample' laps and the default setups were generated independently from each other. Also bear in mind that the 'sample' laps were redorded months before the game's code was finalized...and months and months before the 1.2.0.1 patch, which radically altered (improved) the way the front end feels...and grips. --Steve Smith Maxx <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > Here are some sections of another round of discussions between Eldred > and Maxx. This time discussing setups. > > [ELDRED] > I usually use Alison's settings, or Roland's [Ehnstrom] > > [MAXX] > I've not tried or looked at Rolands, but did use Alisons for quite a > while and certainly these are capable of achieving Papyrus Benchmark > times and perhaps a little more. > > I imagine Rolands will be very different from Alisons, as many of the > real hotshoes use very radical diff settings that almost "drive the > car for you". They do demand a different driving style, still using > all the basic stuff in GPLEGS but you have to be very precise with > brake+throttle and use them together to get anywhere, and you really > need to build up to them. > > If you want some sample laps, let me know, I'm not talking Huttu here > now Eldred, you will learn more at this stage from the guy who is 1 > sec faster, than the guy who is 4 seconds faster. > > [ELDRED] > Got a 1:30 at Silverstone, 1:28 at Monza, or 1:06 at Watkins? :) > > [MAXX] Discussing the default setups. > > There seems to be a lot of negativity about the default > setups, and people, even at +200 Rank asking questions about > where they can get good setups. The default setups are what > was used to set the Papy times in the first place, and are meant > to be easy to get to grips with. > > Allisons revised setups are generally just refinements of these and > not that different. > > [ELDRED] > I find that hard to believe. I really don't think the default replays > were set with the default setups. Just a hunch...<g> > > [MAXX] > I'm not sure, but I feel I can match Papy times, with the default > setups. If I get some time, I may give it a try on a few tracks. > > ** Maxx sets some time aside to test this theory and replies > > [MAXX] > > Eldred, > > I decided to try and run a couple of tracks with the default setups > and see what times were possible. > > I have saved the replays which are discussed here, they are in the > attached file DEFS.ZIP which is 1Mb in size. > > Again, as I think this is really useful stuff, I'd like to post it to > r.a.s. but so that anyone reading can get hold of the replays if they > want I would also like you to put them up on your site (as I don't > have one). > > --------------------------------------------------------- > UPDATE: DEFS.ZIP "will" be on Eldreds site from Monday : > http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > If you really want them sooner, you could try emailing me > at mailto:[email hidden] > or check alt.binaries.simulators.autos, I'll post it there also > but binary groups are often not carried and if they are, > unreliable. > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Making no excuses but a) this was pretty early on, on a Sunday morning > after a late night before b) I've not run F1s since last weekend (been > running F2s) and c) not driven at 2 of the 3 tracks I used WG & Monza > for at least 2-3 or more weeks. > > First up I tried Watkins Glen, took the default setup. I put enough > fuel in for 6-7 laps, and lowered the steering ratio to 12:1 (my > preference, as I turn speed-sensitive steering off). > > The first session was pretty untidy, ending on lap 3 with a roll, so I > started again. on the 2nd lap of this 2nd session I did a 1:06.33, 3rd > lap a 1:06.27 (both well under the Papy time of 1:06.91. I was driving > a little aggresively though and neither of the two laps were what I'd > call good (poor line/balance etc.) > > I started another session and put in 3 consecutive laps of > 1:06.48/1:06.35 and 1:05.57, this 3rd lap, although pretty quick, > still had errors and was not that tidy. I was in a hotlap setting > mindset, so not leaving much margin for error. > > I then did another session, where my plan was to brake very early > and take it very easy, leaving, IMO, plenty of margin for error. This > had 3 consecutive laps of 1:06.61/1:06.82 and 1:06.51, all very > sedate and all with obvious errors, even to the casual, GPLEGS > aware, observer. > > In about 20 timed laps, 8 where under the Papy benchmark (I think a > one or two more may have been also, but I was looking for consecutive > ones) and one was over 1.3 seconds quicker. > > I then tried Silverstone. I'd run this about 10 days ago, plus I was > now getting warmed up. Took the default setup again and on my first > and only 4 lap session I did a 1:30.51 3rd lap and a 1:28.85 4th lap. > > There are still obvious errors in both laps, even the 1:28.85, even > though it is over 2 secs quicker than the Papy time. > > I then tried Monza. In total doing an 8 lap session (poss 2 x 4s I > think). Lap 3 was 1:29.88, lap 8 was 1:29.34. In both Curva Grande was > very messy, as was Lesmo 2 (which as you know is v.important). Lap 8's > L2 was better although followed by a poor Ascari and hampered by a > poor run out of Parabolica on the previous lap. It was the better L2 > that led to the better lap time. > > I've no doubt had I put in another 6-8 laps I would have got into the > high 1:28s, although the gearing is not to my taste with the default > setup and I have driven more responsive setups. > > In short then the default setups ARE well capable of beating the Papy > benchmarks, and by quite some way, 1.3 secs+ at WG, 2secs+ at > Silverstone and almost 1sec at Monza. > > The only technique I'm using which is not heavily covered in GPLEGS is > trail-braking and I think without using it, I could still match the > Papy times. > > The default setups are meant to be easy to drive and fairly neutral, > (in fact they understeer quite badly, but this is easier to handle for > the less experienced driver). > > The requirement for a good setup is to allow you to feel totally in > control of the car, only when you are very, very close to that should > you start moving things around. You could jump straight in and use > other peoples setups, but they may be very difficult to control and > learn, and in fact, may hinder your progress. > > The advantage with the default setups is you have the replays to go > with them (if they were in fact done with the default setups, I don't > know). > > At least you can then see what gear you should be in, what line works > for that setups, what revs you should be pulling as you go under the > bridge etc. > > There is very little opportunity for you to pick up replays and setups > for laptimes that are in your grasp, and that, with basic skills, you > can control effectively. > > Whilst I'm not advocating that everyone stick with the defaults until > they get to a 0.0 rank, I do feel that you would progress quicker this > way than using odd setups from various different individuals at each > track etc., this is definitely a bad idea. By all means use Allisons, > which are still very neutral and very driveable, but stick to hers at > all circuits. > > I personally don't feel I am able to detect subtle setup changes, nor > do I fully understand what I should be feeling, if I did alter the > toe-in, or make slight camber changes. I can appreciate roll-bar > stiffness and wheel (spring) rates but I'd be hard pushed to notice > subtle changes in either of these. > > If you can then great, but if you are the wrong side of the Papy > benchmark, then forget playing with setups, your technique is still > not developed enough. > > Maybe, if you are struggling, banging your head against the proverbial > brick-wall, switch back to the default setups, see how you go. I was > surprised at how much "better" the Silverstone setup was than > some I'd tried, and the WG one. > > Comments welcomed as always. > > Maxx > > NOTE: The laps in DEFS.ZIP where produced to illustrate a > point, and done in a very short space of time, all have errors > so please do not treat these as anything special. > > In case you missed it, the whole point of the above is not to > show how good I AM, but how good the default setups are, > and that IMO, if your +ve Rank and want to be lower, you'd > be better off spending time on practicing technique, than fiddling > with setups. > > Now before all you setup guys start flaming, fiddling with > setups is great experience and well worth doing, as is trying > other peoples BUT, it is not the quickest way to zero Rank. > IMHO.

On Mon, 20 Nov 2000 01:34:10 GMT, "Stephen Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote: Steve, Thanks for clarifying that, as you say the setups and handling where changed in 1.2.0.1 so there definitely will be no direct correlation here. My point was that it is possible to match & beat Papy times with the default setups. In fact taking Steves point that 1.2.0.1 improved the handling (generally thought to be true and shown by impoved WRs) then the defaults setups with 1.2.0.1 should easilly be able to beat the Papy times and the Papy times themselves, if generated with 1.2.0.1, would likely be quicker .. now thats a thought! Maxx

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>Eldred, Maxx, > >To the best of my knowledge, there was no connection between the default >setups and the replays on the CD, although since none of either were mine, I >could be wrong. We beta testers discussed "beginners" setups, but we were >never able to agree on what would work best, so each of the 'sample' laps in >the replays were set by individual beta testers (like Alison and Doug Arnao) >driving with their own individual setups AFAIK. The default setups were >provided by Papyrus, and none of the beta testers could seem to agree on >what was wrong...or right...about them. Bottom line: the 'sample' laps and >the default setups were generated independently from each other. Also bear >in mind that the 'sample' laps were redorded months before the game's code >was finalized...and months and months before the 1.2.0.1 patch, which >radically altered (improved) the way the front end feels...and grips. > >--Steve Smith

In article <8v992e$q5t$[email hidden]>, Ville V Sinkko <[email hidden]> writes

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>Maxx <[email hidden]> wrote: > >> Here are some sections of another round of discussions between Eldred >> and Maxx. This time discussing setups. > ><schnip> > >> where they can get good setups. The default setups are what >> was used to set the Papy times in the first place, and are meant >> to be easy to get to grips with. > >There is one thing about the default setups that makes them >dislikeable (is that a word?): they aren't similar. When you >commit to one car, say, a Ferrari, and drive around the tracks >using the default setups, you can't get the best feel of the car >because of it. What I did to get around it was simply to choose >one setup (I picked Rouen), copy it to all track setup directories >and use it as it is, except for gear lengths. This way I got a >car that responds consistently at each track. > >Just my FIM 0.02.

About 4 or 5 months ago, after some talk of running with the defaults here on ras, I tried a half dozen of the tracks by putting in 6 or so laps worth of fuel and seeing what best time I could do and then quickly going on to the next track etc. I still have those laps written down and they are all quicker than the papy times (some quite significantly). However, these were done using GPL 1.2, which I believe has improved default setups with it. Have you tried the original GPL 1.0 defaults to see if your times are also as fast, Maxx? It may seem a little like nit-picking and that there isn't a major difference overall, but I assume when mention of those original times being done with defaults that they would have been using the GPL 1.0 ones and not 1.2. -- Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying No person's opinions can be said to be more correct than another's, because each is the sole judge of his or her own experience.

On Mon, 20 Nov 2000 18:33:13 +0000, Peter Ives <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>About 4 or 5 months ago, after some talk of running with the defaults >here on ras, I tried a half dozen of the tracks by putting in 6 or so >laps worth of fuel and seeing what best time I could do and then quickly >going on to the next track etc. I still have those laps written down >and they are all quicker than the papy times (some quite significantly). >However, these were done using GPL 1.2, which I believe has improved >default setups with it. Have you tried the original GPL 1.0 defaults to >see if your times are also as fast, Maxx? It may seem a little like >nit-picking and that there isn't a major difference overall, but I >assume when mention of those original times being done with defaults >that they would have been using the GPL 1.0 ones and not 1.2.

Peter, I only got GPL about 6 months ago, so never ran it in any other guise than 1.2.0.1 (patched it straight away). Steve Smith has replied elsewhere that the Papy times where likely not done with the 1.0 default setups anyway. My post was aimed more at Eldred and others who seem to feel they need demon setups to go fast, when in fact you can set some excellent times with the defaults. In fairness Eldred didn't say that, but he does use two very different setups and I'm sure this cannot help him develop his technique. Maxx PS. BTW, Eldred now has those example laps on his site if anyone is interested. http://www-personal.umich.edu/~epickett/gpl.htm

In article <[email hidden]>, Peter Ives <[email hidden]> writes:

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>I'm pretty sure now that, when all is said and done, to get real fast at >GPL you have to know what's happening with the car at any given moment. >You really have to be able to understand what cues the game is giving >you and I believe this is the most important aspect above anything else >if you want to be quick. > >Eldred has often stated here that he is driving on a knife-edge, even >though his replays don't seem to show this, and that he is one corner >away from stuffing it into the hay bales without really knowing why. > >Once you get to the stage where you do know why then the chances of >stuffing it become more and more remote. I can generally throw the car >around almost recklessly at times, but still be able to keep going in a >forward direction even when I've made a complete cockup of a corner by >going in too fast or locking tyres up left, right and centre (or should >that be front and back? <g>), by being able to react quickly enough to >the feedback I'm receiving from sound and screen (as long as I don't >slide off the track that is :)).

It's a question of the level of feedback. I don't have any trouble placing my street car exactly where on the road I want it. I didn't even have a problem in the Skip Barber school at Laguna Seca. I could feel exactly what the car was doing. Although I seriously hung the tail out once, I never spun. I don't get that same feedback from the game, although it improved after I loaded 'aftermarket' skid sounds. At the moment, I wish I could use my hardware limitations as an excuse. But, I have a TSW2mod, which is a fairly decent wheel, and others have made due with a 400MHz system, like I have. I've lost control in the game, and not known why. In such a case, I'll usually rewind the replay. In about 20% of the time, I *still* can't figure out why. That's the tough part. If I had access to a faster system with better graphics, that would tell me exactly how much is just a lack of perception on MY part... :) Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +49.12 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, Maxx <[email hidden]> writes:

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>My post was aimed more at Eldred and others who seem >to feel they need demon setups to go fast, when in fact >you can set some excellent times with the defaults. > >In fairness Eldred didn't say that, but he does use two >very different setups and I'm sure this cannot help >him develop his technique.

I have gained speed since using others' setups. Granted, some of that be just be caused by learning more about the game. But, on every track/car combo that I hadn't run before, I'm slower with the defaults than I am with another setup(usually Alison's...). I may go back to defaults just to check, but I'm not encouraged.<g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +49.12 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, Maxx <[email hidden]> writes <snip>

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> >My post was aimed more at Eldred and others who seem >to feel they need demon setups to go fast, when in fact >you can set some excellent times with the defaults. > >In fairness Eldred didn't say that, but he does use two >very different setups and I'm sure this cannot help >him develop his technique. >

I'm pretty sure now that, when all is said and done, to get real fast at GPL you have to know what's happening with the car at any given moment. You really have to be able to understand what cues the game is giving you and I believe this is the most important aspect above anything else if you want to be quick. Eldred has often stated here that he is driving on a knife-edge, even though his replays don't seem to show this, and that he is one corner away from stuffing it into the hay bales without really knowing why. Once you get to the stage where you do know why then the chances of stuffing it become more and more remote. I can generally throw the car around almost recklessly at times, but still be able to keep going in a forward direction even when I've made a complete cockup of a corner by going in too fast or locking tyres up left, right and centre (or should that be front and back? <g>), by being able to react quickly enough to the feedback I'm receiving from sound and screen (as long as I don't slide off the track that is :)). How do you learn this, I don't really know. It's just an intuitive thing that develops over time the more you drive so that, eventually, you are doing things to keep on the track without even having to think about them anymore. Is this what is being referred to when some people are described as having talent? Possibly. Good technique will get you round the tracks quicker than before, no doubt. Having that inate ability to control the car will get you around even quicker again I believe. Put the 2 together and you're going to be pretty much unbeatable. -- Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying No person's opinions can be said to be more correct than another's, because each is the sole judge of his or her own experience.

On 21 Nov 2000 21:43:07 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: >It's a question of the level of feedback. I don't have any trouble placing my<snip> Hey Eldred, do you use a ff wheel? Ever tried it? Helps me a lot in feeling what the car does in GPL... Andre >Eldred

In article <[email hidden]>, Maxx <[email hidden]> writes:

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>On 21 Nov 2000 21:43:07 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: > >[snip] >>the tough part. If I had access to a faster system with better graphics, >that >>would tell me exactly how much is just a lack of perception on MY part... :) > >Never thought to ask this before EP, but do you get a constant 36fps >when TESTING (i.e. hotlapping)? I think you need to if preception is >a problem. > >Also, going slightly the opposite way, what screen res do you run? >

36fps(in training mode, anyway), I just started 1024x768 a few months ago, when I borrowed a 17" monitor from work. >I am fortunate to have a 22" Monitor and find that there is a huge >difference in clarity between 800 x 600 and 1024 x 768. I feel it >gives me extra confidence e.g. in where the curb actually is, so >may just help laps times fractionally. 22"?!? I can't even afford a 19"...

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> >You can turn off a lot of track detail and of course you don't >need mirrors when hotlapping, neither do you need skid marks, >fire etc. switching these off will improve our fps and may allow >you to run higher res. Also, try switching off bevelled tires is >fps is still a problem. > >ALSO, you don't have the drivers arms/steering wheel do you? >Yes, these are useful to see in replays but for driving they are >IMO a positive distraction. They invariably lag very slightly >behind your true controller input and IMO distract you from >concentrating on the track.

No arms/wheel.

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> >>I've lost control in the game, and not known why. In such a >>case, I'll usually rewind the replay. In about 20% of the time, >>I *still* can't figure out why. > >Interesting, I've never done this, every mistake I've made since >day one I've known why. I can't see how watching a replay would >give you more info than you had whilst driving unless there is so >much going on in your mind whilst driving that you don't have >the spare (human) CPU power to process it. It thats the case, then >thats the reason you've lost control.

Usually, I'm also looking to see what line I took, or how far actually I was on the grass, etc.

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> >I can actually relate to this, we used to take a lot of people >out in the Racing Saloons who were not trained drivers. It was >on Circuit Days or Corporate Days where they would come to >the circuit for a day, do various activites, Karts, Skid Pad, >Driving tests and some circuit lapping. > >We'd show them the basic technique plus there were cones for >where to brake, turn. clip and exit. Most of them would be fine, >some slow, some fairly quick. but some of them we had to slow >or grab the wheel as they were "frightening themselves". This >was meant quite literally, as they were just driving a little beyond >their actual or perceived capabilities and essentially were barely in >control of themselves or the car. In speaking to them, it was as if >there minds had sped up, to a point where they were on the verge >of panic.

Sounds like my first time at speed down the front straight at Laguna Seca...<g>

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> >We had to spot this early enough to pull them out of it (and hope >that it didn't happen on the way down the Craner Curves at >Donington Park). > >I'm not saying this is happening to you, but you may just be >getting into that "speeded up mind" situation were your perception >is compromised. This may also be happening to others and they >are not that aware of it. It was covered in my training course with >Jim Russell, in fact we had a 4-5 hr spell with a Sports Phsycologist >covering this and other issues. > >I've often heard F1 drivers talk about slowing things down mentally >and this is exactly what you try and do. It's not THAT difficult to >do once you are aware of it and make the conscious effort to do >so. Even if you don't have this problem, it's still a useful exercise >to try as I think it helps with smoothing out your driving. > >Maxx >

How do you 'slow down' mentally? I've never heard that before... -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +49.12 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On 21 Nov 2000 21:43:07 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: [snip] >the tough part. If I had access to a faster system with better graphics, that >would tell me exactly how much is just a lack of perception on MY part... :) Never thought to ask this before EP, but do you get a constant 36fps when TESTING (i.e. hotlapping)? I think you need to if preception is a problem. Also, going slightly the opposite way, what screen res do you run? I am fortunate to have a 22" Monitor and find that there is a huge difference in clarity between 800 x 600 and 1024 x 768. I feel it gives me extra confidence e.g. in where the curb actually is, so may just help laps times fractionally. You can turn off a lot of track detail and of course you don't need mirrors when hotlapping, neither do you need skid marks, fire etc. switching these off will improve our fps and may allow you to run higher res. Also, try switching off bevelled tires is fps is still a problem. ALSO, you don't have the drivers arms/steering wheel do you? Yes, these are useful to see in replays but for driving they are IMO a positive distraction. They invariably lag very slightly behind your true controller input and IMO distract you from concentrating on the track. >I've lost control in the game, and not known why. In such a >case, I'll usually rewind the replay. In about 20% of the time, >I *still* can't figure out why. Interesting, I've never done this, every mistake I've made since day one I've known why. I can't see how watching a replay would give you more info than you had whilst driving unless there is so much going on in your mind whilst driving that you don't have the spare (human) CPU power to process it. It thats the case, then thats the reason you've lost control. I can actually relate to this, we used to take a lot of people out in the Racing Saloons who were not trained drivers. It was on Circuit Days or Corporate Days where they would come to the circuit for a day, do various activites, Karts, Skid Pad, Driving tests and some circuit lapping. We'd show them the basic technique plus there were cones for where to brake, turn. clip and exit. Most of them would be fine, some slow, some fairly quick. but some of them we had to slow or grab the wheel as they were "frightening themselves". This was meant quite literally, as they were just driving a little beyond their actual or perceived capabilities and essentially were barely in control of themselves or the car. In speaking to them, it was as if there minds had sped up, to a point where they were on the verge of panic. We had to spot this early enough to pull them out of it (and hope that it didn't happen on the way down the Craner Curves at Donington Park). I'm not saying this is happening to you, but you may just be getting into that "speeded up mind" situation were your perception is compromised. This may also be happening to others and they are not that aware of it. It was covered in my training course with Jim Russell, in fact we had a 4-5 hr spell with a Sports Phsycologist covering this and other issues. I've often heard F1 drivers talk about slowing things down mentally and this is exactly what you try and do. It's not THAT difficult to do once you are aware of it and make the conscious effort to do so. Even if you don't have this problem, it's still a useful exercise to try as I think it helps with smoothing out your driving. Maxx