GPL - ouch, I cannot better my N-ring! :-(

GPL gang, I seem not to be able to better my Nurburgring time! Always I miss some corners and make some spins. Actually I do remember the track quite well nowadays, but anyhow, I am either too eager or too shy in so many parts of the track. And I am not going to post anything to "the rank" before I get at least under 10 minutes! Yes, I do know that for many 9 minutes is the real thing... My best so far is only 10:27 by Lotus in 7th September, and 10:46 by Ferrari in 4th September... I do know the advice: practise, practise and practise. But there are so many so nice shorter tracks nowadays, too... And there might be also some other things in the world than GPL... Confused, Arto

"Roger Squires" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:8HaT5.12573$[email hidden]... Yo Roger! > hay Joachim, where's that promised english version :) Touché! Unfortunately my lack of freetime was much bigger than expected (as always). But hey, X-Mas is coming...wait and see ;)). Regards Crash

The lotus is only fast around the ring if you are a 'very' good driver, try the cooper it is by far the easyest car to drive at the ring, and even though it's a slower car you'll probably go allot faster then with the lotus or ferrari. Alex "Arto Wikla" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:wikla.974935558@kanasaari...

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> GPL gang, > > I seem not to be able to better my Nurburgring time! Always I miss > some corners and make some spins. Actually I do remember the track > quite well nowadays, but anyhow, I am either too eager or too shy > in so many parts of the track. And I am not going to post anything > to "the rank" before I get at least under 10 minutes! Yes, I do > know that for many 9 minutes is the real thing... My best so far > is only 10:27 by Lotus in 7th September, and 10:46 by Ferrari in > 4th September... I do know the advice: practise, practise and practise. > > But there are so many so nice shorter tracks nowadays, too... > And there might be also some other things in the world than GPL... > > Confused, > > Arto

In article <8vj1mp$e8q$[email hidden]>, Ville V Sinkko <[email hidden]> writes:

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>> To speed up your Ring education, I recommend you use Joachim >> Blum's excellent Ring Trainer, found at > >> http://www.joachimblum.de/ringtrainer.htm > >Driving with a joystick is said to be cheating whenever someone >admits to doing it; but when people do things like that Ring Trainer, >nobody says a thing. There's something for you all to think about.

Why would you(or anyone) consider the Ring Trainer to be cheating? It's a way to practice the same section multiple times, quickly... Since when would practice be cheating? Consider it similar to studying for an exam in school...<g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +49.12 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

No exam in school was ever as tough as the Nordschleife. At the very least those didn't kill you to if you got a question wrong. ;-) Jan. =--- EldredP wrote...

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> <snip> > Why would you(or anyone) consider the Ring Trainer to be cheating? > It's a way to practice the same section multiple times, quickly... > Since when would practice be cheating? Consider it similar to > studying for an exam in school...<g> > > Eldred > -- > Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPL hcp. +49.12 > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then > beats you with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Eh? -Who ever said driving with a joystick is cheating? Less obvious than a wheel/pedal combo and less immersive, maybe, but certainly not cheating. Don't see why the Ring Trainer should be considered cheating either... it's publicly available, so if you think your opponent gets a benifit from using it, you can start using it too. Plus, in a race, it doesn't make a difference as everyone still needs to complete the entire lap in sequence, without the ability to redo a section. Jan. =--- Ville V Sinkko wrote...

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> <snip> > Driving with a joystick is said to be cheating whenever > someone admits to doing it; but when people do things > like that Ring Trainer, nobody says a thing. There's > something for you all to think about. > > +Cinquo

"Martin Ursua" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3a1e8ca2.1622715@news...

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> To speed up your Ring education, I recommend you use Joachim > Blum's excellent Ring Trainer, found at > http://www.joachimblum.de/ringtrainer.htm > With the trainer you can concentrate on learning a short > segment of the Ring. Once you've built up your confidence, move the > starting point up the road and begin learning again. It won't be > easy, and it will still take some time, but eventually you'll be able > to mentally assemble all the pieces and memorize the entire track.

Thanks Martin for the recommendation ;). Because the program is entirely written in german, I add a little translation of the readme here so that installation and usage of Ringtrainer won't be a problem if you read it and follow the instructions carefully. Here goes: What the program does is to simply change the position of your car as it is deployed onto the track. This position is defined within the "track.ini"-file. Ringtrainer now lets you chose between 11 different positions along the Nurburgring, each at the beginning of a particular section of the track. The main advantage of this is, that you can now drive through this sections multiple times in series without having to complete a whole lap inbetween. By this you can remember tricky corners faster. Because it's written in German, I will give some installation instructions right here: 1. Download the file called "Ringtrainer.zip" 3. Download the file called "Ringtrainer_Audioupdate.zip" 2. If you don't have the VisualBasic Runtime Modules 6.00, you must also download the appropiate file by clicking on the link which will send you to a Microsoft-server. 4. Extract the two Ringtrainer-zips into a single folder. 5. Make a backup of your original "track.ini"-file that is in the "\tracks\nurburg"-folder of your GPL-installation. 6. Copy the "track.ini"-file of the Ringtrainer-folder into the "\tracks\nurburg"-folder. 7. Ready to rumble ;). Fire up Ringtrainer by double-clicking the exe-file. 8. Now you can choose a particular section from the dropdown-list and the program will show you the part of the track redlined in a trackmap and the deploy-point of the car via a little sceenshot. Note: The car will be dropped a little before the redlined section so you can gain normal speed for that section. 9. You now have two possibilities to go on: Either you start GPL normally and can start driving from that deploy-point over and over again. Or you check the option "F4 als Hotkey aktivieren" and launch GPL via the "Start GPL"-Button. This feature enables the F4-key as hotkey. Every time you press F4 during playing GPL, Ringtrainer moves you one point forward on the track and gives the actual positioning via voice-output so you don't have to quit GPL to choose another part of the track for training - it can be done while in GPL. ATTENTION: You have to quit the training session and reenter though for the changes to take effect. This is due to the fact, that GPL loads the "track.ini" only once at the beginning of a training session. Note: The voice you hear will be a little strange - I did this because I didn't want everybody to hear my original voice ;)). Unfortunately this requires some computing-power so I left it optional for those who don't have the big PIII or Athlon under their desk ;). Also, big framerate-hits have been reported from opengl-patch users, but this should be history due to the lately releases D3D-patch. If you have further questions about the program, use the link on the Ringtrainer page to send me a mail. Have fun at the Ring! Regards Crash

"Ville V Sinkko" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:8vj1mp$e8q$[email hidden]... > Driving with a joystick is said to be cheating whenever someone > admits to doing it; but when people do things like that Ring Trainer, > nobody says a thing. There's something for you all to think about. Hmm, thought about it and came to the conclusion that it's not cheating ;). Regards Crash

On Thu 23 Nov 2000 12:14:17p, Ville V Sinkko wrote: >Driving with a joystick is said to be cheating whenever someone >admits to doing it; but when people do things like that Ring Trainer, >nobody says a thing. There's something for you all to think about. I don't remember anyone ever saying driving with a joystick is cheating. It's a silly thing to say, even if they did though, as it's generally considerably harder. -- David. (GPLRank handicap: -5.92) The GPL Scrapyard - http://www.hillclimbfan.f2s.com "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh.

The Lotus might not be the best for you at the Ring. I've made a pretty forgivable Ferrari setup (IMHO) give it a try you should reduce those spins and get 9 minutes no problem. http://members.home.net/gpl.mondsj/gpl/Ferrari.html (Note: Do not try any other setups because the ride-heights will be below the 2" mark, so I can't guarantee they'll feel correct in GPL 1.2. Of course the N-Ring is wayyy above 2" so it still works fine :) On the other hand, you could stick with the Lotus and just drive slower --- to go faster :) Jason. Arto Wikla wrote:

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> > GPL gang, > > I seem not to be able to better my Nurburgring time! Always I miss > some corners and make some spins. Actually I do remember the track > quite well nowadays, but anyhow, I am either too eager or too shy > in so many parts of the track. And I am not going to post anything > to "the rank" before I get at least under 10 minutes! Yes, I do > know that for many 9 minutes is the real thing... My best so far > is only 10:27 by Lotus in 7th September, and 10:46 by Ferrari in > 4th September... I do know the advice: practise, practise and practise. > > But there are so many so nice shorter tracks nowadays, too... > And there might be also some other things in the world than GPL... > > Confused, > > Arto

-- Jason Monds http://www.proracingclub.com - Pro Racing Club! (N3, GPL, Fun Run Sims) http://www.racersdomain.com - Race hosting. (Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)

Take it real easy. If you drive briskly you'll easily get under 10. I did my first 8 just driving a relaxed joy drive. Pretty much you just have to push where you feel comfterable and take extra caution where your not. Thanks, Alex Arto Wikla <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:wikla.974935558@kanasaari...

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> GPL gang, > > I seem not to be able to better my Nurburgring time! Always I miss > some corners and make some spins. Actually I do remember the track > quite well nowadays, but anyhow, I am either too eager or too shy > in so many parts of the track. And I am not going to post anything > to "the rank" before I get at least under 10 minutes! Yes, I do > know that for many 9 minutes is the real thing... My best so far > is only 10:27 by Lotus in 7th September, and 10:46 by Ferrari in > 4th September... I do know the advice: practise, practise and practise. > > But there are so many so nice shorter tracks nowadays, too... > And there might be also some other things in the world than GPL... > > Confused, > > Arto

On 22 Nov 2000 23:25:59 GMT, [email hidden] (Arto Wikla) wrote: >But there are so many so nice shorter tracks nowadays, too... >And there might be also some other things in the world than GPL... To speed up your Ring education, I recommend you use Joachim Blum's excellent Ring Trainer, found at http://www.joachimblum.de/ringtrainer.htm With the trainer you can concentrate on learning a short segment of the Ring. Once you've built up your confidence, move the starting point up the road and begin learning again. It won't be easy, and it will still take some time, but eventually you'll be able to mentally assemble all the pieces and memorize the entire track. Martin Long Live Nigel Mansell!

Martin Ursua <[email hidden]> wrote: > On 22 Nov 2000 23:25:59 GMT, [email hidden] (Arto Wikla) wrote: > To speed up your Ring education, I recommend you use Joachim > Blum's excellent Ring Trainer, found at > http://www.joachimblum.de/ringtrainer.htm Driving with a joystick is said to be cheating whenever someone admits to doing it; but when people do things like that Ring Trainer, nobody says a thing. There's something for you all to think about. +Cinquo

On 23 Nov 2000 12:14:17 GMT, Ville V Sinkko <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Martin Ursua <[email hidden]> wrote: >> On 22 Nov 2000 23:25:59 GMT, [email hidden] (Arto Wikla) wrote: > >> To speed up your Ring education, I recommend you use Joachim >> Blum's excellent Ring Trainer, found at > >> http://www.joachimblum.de/ringtrainer.htm > >Driving with a joystick is said to be cheating whenever someone >admits to doing it; but when people do things like that Ring Trainer, >nobody says a thing. There's something for you all to think about.

Just for the record: I don't believe using a joystick is cheating. I don't believe using the 'arcade' view is cheating. I do believe there are situations in which people are willing to trade purity for time. Hence, shift-R. Hence, a small program that lets you bypass those hours of frustration spent crashing out of a corner, then having to drive for another 9 minutes to crash at the same corner again. Before I learned about Joachim's Trainer, I had pretty much given up driving the Ring. Now, I've learned the track and get a big thrill out of lapping it cleanly and quickly. I don't use the trainer anymore. Martin Long Live Nigel Mansell!

hay Joachim, where's that promised english version :) rms [email hidden]

Why not try an F2 car like the ferrari? I'd think you'd be very surprised. rms [email hidden]

In article <3a1f6f12$0$153$[email hidden]>, "gary" <[email hidden]> writes: >What set-ups are you using? I use Alison's >x-file set-ups...very forgiving and fast enough for a "cold-shoe" like >myself. Amazing how different people like different setups. I can't drive the x-file setups, but I *can* drive Alison's other setups.<shrug> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +49.12 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Hello Arto, I've been running races against the AI guys lately with some success. (I'm not one to brag...but I will! I FINALLY broke the 9 minute barrier today with a 8:57 lap in a novice race with the AI.) If you can keep up with them, they'll show you around the course and give you a good feel for the lines and speeds through the corners. What set-ups are you using? I use Alison's x-file set-ups...very forgiving and fast enough for a "cold-shoe" like myself. (Her "Red Candy" Ferrari set-ups are really good too, I've set all my Ferrari fast laps with them.) Finally, get GPLEGS from Maxx! I've been using his techniques for only 4 weeks, and I've dropped my GPL handicap from +78.29 to +65.16. Not bad progress, eh? (But there's plenty of room for improvement!) You can get Alison's set-ups at http://www.simracing.com/~alison/gpl (I think that's the right place?) Send an email to Maxx at [email hidden] for the GPLEGS info. Race on! Gary Arto Wikla wrote in message ...

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>GPL gang, > >I seem not to be able to better my Nurburgring time! Always I miss >some corners and make some spins. Actually I do remember the track >quite well nowadays, but anyhow, I am either too eager or too shy >in so many parts of the track. And I am not going to post anything >to "the rank" before I get at least under 10 minutes! Yes, I do >know that for many 9 minutes is the real thing... My best so far >is only 10:27 by Lotus in 7th September, and 10:46 by Ferrari in >4th September... I do know the advice: practise, practise and practise. > >But there are so many so nice shorter tracks nowadays, too... >And there might be also some other things in the world than GPL... > >Confused, > >Arto

Arto, switch to an F3 car or at the most a F2. This will greatly reduce the spinouts, and alot of F3 drivers on gplrank are getting 10 minutes or less with F3, so your times will actually improve :) Here are F3 setups http://www.bus.nait.ab.ca/staff/mikeh/gpl/setups.zip I've just started F2/F3 myself, but found doing under 9minutes with a F2 car wasn't that hard. You can avoid most of the frustrations of F1 by sticking to the slower cars for awhile. rms [email hidden]

In article <wikla.975283385@kanasaari>, [email hidden] (Arto Wikla) writes:

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>Thank you Roger, and also others! The advice of using the Cooper was >also very good! It is so nice a car to drive; thus far my best time >is 10:24.32 - with Cooper! - it is getting better... I had only one spin... > >My best F3 thus far is 11:23.02, with Ferrari. But it was already >13/07/00! I have not tried F3 in N-ring since then. Perhaps it is >time for that also? ;-) > >I'll let you know, if I some day brake the 10 min. barrier! I just >envy those who are battling with the 8:30! >

I tried the idea of running a race against the AI, and trying to stay with them(my PB is 8:52). I was able to at least see McLaren in the distance through about 50% of the lap. My first lap time was 8:58.39, clean. I figured - ok, that's from a standing start. If I can keep up that pace, I should be able to get an 8:40, or so. Next lap, clean - 8:58.61. DOH! very disappointing... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +49.12 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Roger Squires writes: >Arto, switch to an F3 car or at the most a F2. This will greatly reduce the >spinouts, and alot of F3 drivers on gplrank are getting 10 minutes or less >with F3, so your times will actually improve :) Here are F3 setups >http://www.bus.nait.ab.ca/staff/mikeh/gpl/setups.zip Thank you Roger, and also others! The advice of using the Cooper was also very good! It is so nice a car to drive; thus far my best time is 10:24.32 - with Cooper! - it is getting better... I had only one spin... My best F3 thus far is 11:23.02, with Ferrari. But it was already 13/07/00! I have not tried F3 in N-ring since then. Perhaps it is time for that also? ;-) I'll let you know, if I some day brake the 10 min. barrier! I just envy those who are battling with the 8:30! Arto

You'll do it, I seem to be stuck in the low 9 minute range, my best so for is 9:06, and it seems no matter how much I try, I just can't get into that 8 minute plus range. -- Don Burnette Dburn in N3 and Legends ICQ# 74084566 "Arto Wikla" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:wikla.975283385@kanasaari... > Roger Squires writes: > > >Arto, switch to an F3 car or at the most a F2. This will greatly reduce the > >spinouts, and alot of F3 drivers on gplrank are getting 10 minutes or less > >with F3, so your times will actually improve :) Here are F3 setups > >http://www.bus.nait.ab.ca/staff/mikeh/gpl/setups.zip > > Thank you Roger, and also others! The advice of using the Cooper was > also very good! It is so nice a car to drive; thus far my best time > is 10:24.32 - with Cooper! - it is getting better... I had only one spin... > > My best F3 thus far is 11:23.02, with Ferrari. But it was already > 13/07/00! I have not tried F3 in N-ring since then. Perhaps it is > time for that also? ;-) > > I'll let you know, if I some day brake the 10 min. barrier! I just > envy those who are battling with the 8:30! > > Arto

Don Burnette wrote: > > You'll do it, I seem to be stuck in the low 9 minute range, my best so for > is 9:06, and it seems no matter how much I try, I just can't get into that 8 > minute plus range. I'm glad I'm not the only one.

Second that JensSchumi On Thu, 23 Nov 2000 14:28:50 +0100, "Joachim Blum" <[email hidden]> wrote: > >Hmm, thought about it and came to the conclusion that it's not cheating ;). > >Regards >Crash --------------------------------------------- LWFF Ball Bearing conversion at: http://members.nbci.com/JensSchu/ GPLRank: -3.34

Also very helpful to increase the amount of laps to drive. 2 laps on the ring ist just for warming up :-( JensSchumi On Sat, 25 Nov 2000 01:48:04 -0600, "gary" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Hello Arto, > >I've been running races against the AI guys lately with some success. (I'm >not one to brag...but I will! I FINALLY broke the 9 minute barrier today >with a 8:57 lap in a novice race with the AI.) If you can keep up with them,<snip> --------------------------------------------- LWFF Ball Bearing conversion at: http://members.nbci.com/JensSchu/ GPLRank: -3.34

Well, I've become a little better in my extremely modest scale... :-) I started driving the Cooper - very nice car to drive at The Ring, thanks for the advice! - and today I drove my record: (please do not laugh :) 10:03.87. It really is tens of seconds better than my previous one... And only one little spin... Without that I could have made an under 10 lap... And even when I promised not to update my GPLRank before getting below 10 minutes, I did it anyhow... (Now you are allowed to laugh.. :) My total time went from 241.29 to 198.16! So,..., now it is less than two hundred seconds to the "negative"! ;-) And my position went from 1462nd to 1410th... I guess I must be the slowest GPL driver, who writes to r.a.s.? ;-) Arto

Congrats! Think of it this way, your ahead of the guy in 1411 position :-D Jason. Arto Wikla wrote:

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> > Well, I've become a little better in my extremely modest scale... :-) > > My total time went from 241.29 to 198.16! So,..., now it is less than > two hundred seconds to the "negative"! ;-) And my position went from > 1462nd to 1410th... > > I guess I must be the slowest GPL driver, who writes to r.a.s.? ;-) > > Arto

-- Jason Monds http://www.proracingclub.com - Pro Racing Club! (N3, GPL, Fun Run Sims) http://www.racersdomain.com - Race hosting. (Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)

> You'll do it, I seem to be stuck in the low 9 minute range, my best so for > is 9:06, and it seems no matter how much I try, I just can't get into that8 > minute plus range. Stop trying, start touring. Worked for me (8.30)... :-) Cheers, Herko

Jason Monds writes: >Congrats! Think of it this way, your ahead of the guy in 1411 position >:-D Thanks! Well, already now I seem to be the 1411th... The earthly honour doesn't seem to last long... ;-) Arto

[email hidden] (Arto Wikla) wrote: > I started driving the Cooper - very nice car to drive at The Ring, > thanks for the advice! - and today I drove my record: (please do not > laugh :) 10:03.87. It really is tens of seconds better than my > previous one... And only one little spin... Without that I could have > made an under 10 lap... I was racing in a league that did the Ring recently. I was in the upper 10's and low 11's until I found myself in the mid to low 10's. Then suddenly I found myself doing laps in the 9:50's and low 10's! The I was down to 9:30's and 9:40's. So I think you are right on track! Don't push in the areas you do not feel good. Don't fly over rises where you are not sure what is on the other side. But where you are comfortable, push harder. When you are sure what is beyond each bend you can push a little more. You will find yourself in the mid 9's very soon! -- ==> HiFi/DirtyShifters <==

In article <8IW$[email hidden]>, Peter Ives <[email hidden]> writes:

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>But knowing what could be achieved by others kept me at it and now my >fastest is something like 8:05 and I can do sub 8:30 laps just cruising >and I now wonder how I was struggling to do under 9:30 way back then. > >So don't get too pessimistic about your current time as, with continued >practice and persistence, you will no doubt find your PB tumbling and >will also wonder how you could have been as slow as you were. >

I can 'maybe' see you saying that about his times(10:xx), as the 9:00 mark was seen as a benchmark. But I don't see HOW you can say that 8:30 is "crusing"... You're just too good - my 'crusing' would be 9:15 or so... :) Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +45.45 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <wikla.975446874@kanasaari>, Arto Wikla <[email hidden]> writes

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>Well, I've become a little better in my extremely modest scale... :-) > >I started driving the Cooper - very nice car to drive at The Ring, >thanks for the advice! - and today I drove my record: (please do not >laugh :) 10:03.87. It really is tens of seconds better than my >previous one... And only one little spin... Without that I could have >made an under 10 lap... > >And even when I promised not to update my GPLRank before getting below >10 >minutes, I did it anyhow... (Now you are allowed to laugh.. :) >My total time went from 241.29 to 198.16! So,..., now it is less than >two hundred seconds to the "negative"! ;-) And my position went from >1462nd to 1410th... > >I guess I must be the slowest GPL driver, who writes to r.a.s.? ;-) >

The Ring for me has been one of those tracks that, over the learning curve, I felt that I had always gone as fast as I could go and that there was very little room for improvement - even when I was doing 9:30 laps and thought that I knew the track pretty well. But knowing what could be achieved by others kept me at it and now my fastest is something like 8:05 and I can do sub 8:30 laps just cruising and I now wonder how I was struggling to do under 9:30 way back then. So don't get too pessimistic about your current time as, with continued practice and persistence, you will no doubt find your PB tumbling and will also wonder how you could have been as slow as you were. Trust me. :) -- Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying No person's opinions can be said to be more correct than another's, because each is the sole judge of his or her own experience.

In article <[email hidden]>, EldredP <[email hidden]> writes

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>In article <8IW$[email hidden]>, >Peter Ives ><[email hidden]> writes: > >>But knowing what could be achieved by others kept me at it and now my >>fastest is something like 8:05 and I can do sub 8:30 laps just cruising >>and I now wonder how I was struggling to do under 9:30 way back then. >> >>So don't get too pessimistic about your current time as, with continued >>practice and persistence, you will no doubt find your PB tumbling and >>will also wonder how you could have been as slow as you were. >> > >I can 'maybe' see you saying that about his times(10:xx), as the 9:00 mark >was >seen as a benchmark. But I don't see HOW you can say that 8:30 is >"crusing"... > You're just too good - my 'crusing' would be 9:15 or so... :) >

Yeah, but so was mine, once. :) It's hard to explain I guess, but it does now feel like cruising, and yet I still recall racing the AI who were doing 8:22 laps and I was 8 seconds back and struggling to keep it on the track. It just happens, subtly. No magic bullet. You just suddenly find things become easier the more you race. I bet you can still remember when 9:15 would have given you a hard time, but I'm sure you cannot explain why it doesn't now. 'Never Give Up!!!' You're just being negative about your chances of not being negative, aren't you. :) -- Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying No person's opinions can be said to be more correct than another's, because each is the sole judge of his or her own experience.