F1CE2000 - How do you display the framerate?

I got the game yesterday and played it last night. I only went out without other cars, but the game looks, sounds and drives really well. Though, how do I find out the 'exact' framerate that the game is managing? On the subject of the driving model - I'm very pleased so far ... it's definitely the best driving model in current F1 game. It doesn't give u anywhere as much feel/queues as GPL as well as nowhere is the driving model anywhere as detailed; though, what they got here is pretty impressive already. I haven't found any major flaws in the driving model in my short 3 hour stint behind the wheel. One thing though, the throttle response does not seem to be 'sharp' enough - it seems to me that once I'm moving (even in 1st gear) no matter how hard I plant the foot - it will not produce wheelspin. Maybe upping the 'throttle sensitivity' will improve this. Though, this is my only gripe so far. In contrast, I noticed flaws in the 'on the limit' modelling in GP3 straight away so F1CE2000 is onto a good start :-) btw, I've got PII 300 (@374) + 12Mb Voodoo + 64Mb RAM and will all options on (most on max) and all 'effects' on low/medium and 'cars seen' on 8 and viewing/drawing distance on 70% - I'm getting flawless framerate in 'solo' play. Flawless means 30+fps judging from the visuals. Though, I do notice the lack of RAM - I need 128Mb RAM 'cos at the moment the game leads for good 5-10 secs into putting u on the track so for those 1st 5-10 secs the game is undrivable (it's still loading). ps. Love the engine sounds :-) Anyway, so how do I display the fps? Regards, David Mocnay

Get fraps it displays framerate in any dx game www.fraps.com Alex Cameron "David Mocnay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:S1AX5.3724$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (7 lines)

> I got the game yesterday and played it last night. I only went out without > other cars, but the game looks, sounds and drives really well. Though, how > do I find out the 'exact' framerate that the game is managing? > > On the subject of the driving model - I'm very pleased so far ... it's > definitely the best driving model in current F1 game. It doesn't give u > anywhere as much feel/queues as GPL as well as nowhere is the driving

model > anywhere as detailed; though, what they got here is pretty impressive > already. I haven't found any major flaws in the driving model in my short3 > hour stint behind the wheel. One thing though, the throttle response does > not seem to be 'sharp' enough - it seems to me that once I'm moving (evenin

Quoted text (22 lines)

> 1st gear) no matter how hard I plant the foot - it will not produce > wheelspin. Maybe upping the 'throttle sensitivity' will improve this. > Though, this is my only gripe so far. In contrast, I noticed flaws in the > 'on the limit' modelling in GP3 straight away so F1CE2000 is onto a good > start :-) > > btw, I've got PII 300 (@374) + 12Mb Voodoo + 64Mb RAM and will all options > on (most on max) and all 'effects' on low/medium and 'cars seen' on 8 and > viewing/drawing distance on 70% - I'm getting flawless framerate in 'solo' > play. Flawless means 30+fps judging from the visuals. Though, I do notice > the lack of RAM - I need 128Mb RAM 'cos at the moment the game leads for > good 5-10 secs into putting u on the track so for those 1st 5-10 secs the > game is undrivable (it's still loading). > > ps. Love the engine sounds :-) > > Anyway, so how do I display the fps? > > Regards, > David Mocnay > >

Get the tool at http://www.fraps.com and run it before starting your F1Ce2000. It works with any D3D program. Jason. David Mocnay wrote:

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > I got the game yesterday and played it last night. I only went out without > other cars, but the game looks, sounds and drives really well. Though, how > do I find out the 'exact' framerate that the game is managing? > > > Anyway, so how do I display the fps? > > Regards, > David Mocnay

-- Jason Monds http://www.proracingclub.com - Pro Racing Club! (N3, GPL, Fun Run Sims) http://www.racersdomain.com - Race hosting. (Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)

Cool, I'm getting it right now. I take it F1CE2000 does not have means to display the frames/second (like in papyrus games)? Thanks, David Mocnay Jason Monds wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

Quoted text (8 lines)

>Get the tool at http://www.fraps.com and run it before starting your >F1Ce2000. It works with any D3D program. > >Jason. > >David Mocnay wrote: >> >> I got the game yesterday and played it last night. I only went out

without >> other cars, but the game looks, sounds and drives really well. Though,how

Quoted text (13 lines)

>> do I find out the 'exact' framerate that the game is managing? >> >> >> Anyway, so how do I display the fps? >> >> Regards, >> David Mocnay > >-- >Jason Monds >http://www.proracingclub.com - Pro Racing Club! (N3, GPL, Fun Run Sims) >http://www.racersdomain.com - Race hosting. >(Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)

I believe that is correct. David Mocnay wrote:

Quoted text (31 lines)

> Cool, I'm getting it right now. I take it F1CE2000 does not have means to > display the frames/second (like in papyrus games)? > > Thanks, > David Mocnay > > Jason Monds wrote in message <[email hidden]>... > >Get the tool at http://www.fraps.com and run it before starting your > >F1Ce2000. It works with any D3D program. > > > >Jason. > > > >David Mocnay wrote: > >> > >> I got the game yesterday and played it last night. I only went out > without > >> other cars, but the game looks, sounds and drives really well. Though, > how > >> do I find out the 'exact' framerate that the game is managing? > >> > >> > >> Anyway, so how do I display the fps? > >> > >> Regards, > >> David Mocnay > > > >-- > >Jason Monds > >http://www.proracingclub.com - Pro Racing Club! (N3, GPL, Fun Run Sims) > >http://www.racersdomain.com - Race hosting. > >(Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)

-- Bert (Remove <nospam> from e-mail address when replying)

FWIW, in the late beta copy that I used to write my preview of F1CS2K, you could see the instant, overall, or average frame rate by pressing the "F" key once, twice, or three times in succession. If you look *VERY* closely at the lower left-hand corner of the screen shots in the preview on the BHMS site, you'll see the frame rate indicated in tiny green letters. I asked why this didn't make it in the final version, and the answer from ISI was that they weren't actually sure why they didn't just leave it in. I encouraged them strongly to consider re-enabling this (or adding it back in) if/when any patches are released, so hopefully we'll see this option appear in F1CS2K in the near future. Now, everyone work on finding some bugs so they'll have to release a patch sooner, rather than later! ;-) -- JB In article <PRBX5.3801$[email hidden]>, "David Mocnay" <[email hidden]> wrote: > Cool, I'm getting it right now. I take it F1CE2000 does not havemeans to > display the frames/second (like in papyrus games)? > > Thanks, > David Mocnay > > Jason Monds wrote in message<[email hidden]>...

Quoted text (10 lines)

> >Get the tool at http://www.fraps.com and run it before starting your > >F1Ce2000. It works with any D3D program. > > > >Jason. > > > >David Mocnay wrote: > >> > >> I got the game yesterday and played it last night. I only went out > without > >> other cars, but the game looks, sounds and drives really well.

Though,

Quoted text (12 lines)

> how > >> do I find out the 'exact' framerate that the game is managing? > >> > >> > >> Anyway, so how do I display the fps? > >> > >> Regards, > >> David Mocnay > > > >-- > >Jason Monds > >http://www.proracingclub.com - Pro Racing Club! (N3, GPL, Fun Run

Sims) > >http://www.racersdomain.com - Race hosting. > >(Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying) > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

It would be nice not to have to edit the .plr file for deadzone sensitivity all the time. <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:90mutg$f7s$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (63 lines)

> FWIW, in the late beta copy that I used to write my preview of F1CS2K, > you could see the instant, overall, or average frame rate by pressing > the "F" key once, twice, or three times in succession. If you look > *VERY* closely at the lower left-hand corner of the screen shots in the > preview on the BHMS site, you'll see the frame rate indicated in tiny > green letters. > > I asked why this didn't make it in the final version, and the answer > from ISI was that they weren't actually sure why they didn't just leave > it in. I encouraged them strongly to consider re-enabling this (or > adding it back in) if/when any patches are released, so hopefully we'll > see this option appear in F1CS2K in the near future. > > Now, everyone work on finding some bugs so they'll have to release a > patch sooner, rather than later! > > ;-) > > -- JB > > In article <PRBX5.3801$[email hidden]>, > "David Mocnay" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > Cool, I'm getting it right now. I take it F1CE2000 does not have > means to > > display the frames/second (like in papyrus games)? > > > > Thanks, > > David Mocnay > > > > Jason Monds wrote in message > <[email hidden]>... > > >Get the tool at http://www.fraps.com and run it before starting your > > >F1Ce2000. It works with any D3D program. > > > > > >Jason. > > > > > >David Mocnay wrote: > > >> > > >> I got the game yesterday and played it last night. I only went out > > without > > >> other cars, but the game looks, sounds and drives really well. > Though, > > how > > >> do I find out the 'exact' framerate that the game is managing? > > >> > > >> > > >> Anyway, so how do I display the fps? > > >> > > >> Regards, > > >> David Mocnay > > > > > >-- > > >Jason Monds > > >http://www.proracingclub.com - Pro Racing Club! (N3, GPL, Fun Run > Sims) > > >http://www.racersdomain.com - Race hosting. > > >(Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying) > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy.

David Mocnay wrote: > > In contrast, I noticed flaws in the 'on the limit' modelling in GP3 > straight away so F1CE2000 is onto a good start :-) > Just curious, what flaws did you find so apparent in GP3 on the limit? -Gregor

On Thu, 07 Dec 2000 06:48:12 GMT, "SIRO" <[email hidden]> wrote: >It would be nice not to have to edit the .plr file for deadzone sensitivity >all the time. True, but when you don't go to the options screen, it will not change the deadzone value back to 20. You just have to adjust it after you went to the options screen. Still needs to be patched though :) And John, please ask them to rebuild the setup loading/saving system, let them make it as it is in GPL, it's way too clumsy now :) Those are the only things that can use a patch which I can think off.. good sign or what? :) Andre

OK, Here's the shortlist: - When the back of the car steps out (usually out of control) and then slam the brakes. What happens is the car straightens up. This is totally wrong .. .I'm going around a corner (medium speed), back steps out and I hit the brakes hard - what should happen is that car spins even more violently than it was already. A move like that should literally throw u of the track. - When the back steps coming out of corners, the effect is very 'clinical' (ie. digital) - there's no throttle fineness that can control the car. It's almost a digital process of lifting of the throttle and the car stepping back in. There's no need to counter-steer as that does not have much effect on the situation. The situation is controlled 'only' with the 'lift of'. - Then there's the whole behaviour of having 1 (or 2) wheels on the grass. You can be driving with 1/2 the car in the grass and it makes no difference to the handling - the car should be pulling to the side lime mad and also the rear wheel in the grass should either spin like crazy (stiff LSD - or no LSD) or the car should feel like it lost all the power (soft LSD) ... as the wheel on the grass has no grip, it will try and put only 'enough' power (to the wheel on the bitumen) to not get wheelspin in the wheel in the grass (hope that makes sense). - More on the grass thing - you can come out of a corner (still cornering), get the back outside wheel into the grass and the car does not even twitch. These are all the things I noticed in GP3 in my 1st day of playing it... more I played it, more obvious this became. The game is lacking in these areas - it's very good until you're in an 'on-the limit' (or over it) situation. Then it lets me down a bit :-( ... better than GP2, but not as good as I'd like. Regards, David Mocnay Gregor Veble wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

Quoted text (9 lines)

>David Mocnay wrote: >> >> In contrast, I noticed flaws in the 'on the limit' modelling in GP3 >> straight away so F1CE2000 is onto a good start :-) >> > >Just curious, what flaws did you find so apparent in GP3 on the limit? > >-Gregor

On the subject of 'hitting the brakes when the back is coming out' - the back has it's own momentum when it steps out, ste sheer weirg of the engine wants to thow the back around - this is common for all cars ... in paricualar rear-wheel drive (and even more mid-engined). When u hit the brakes, you'll transfer more weight forward with not only ligtens the grip at the back and the back itself, but also beause the back is not directly behind you, but slighly to the side, it will try and 'thow' the back to the front (part of the weight transfer). It's a 'standard' behavius for all cars (even bikes) - it's just laws of thysics atcing on the mass, there's nothing special in an F1 car that will get you around this. Come to think of it, on an F1 car the spin should be even more violent then what I'm used to in a car - that is because by not having the rear wing pointed directly in the dicevtion of travel will mean that u'll lose downforce at the back - this should produce a pretty violent snap. -- Regards, David Mocnay "Gregor Veble" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Thanks for your answer! > > David Mocnay wrote: > > > > OK, Here's the shortlist: > > - When the back of the car steps out (usually out of control) and then slam > > the brakes. What happens is the car straightens up. This is totally wrong .. > > .I'm going around a corner (medium speed), back steps out and I hit the > > brakes hard - what should happen is that car spins even more violently than > > it was already. A move like that should literally throw u of the track. > > Are you so sure? Try it in GPL and (even more) Viper Racing. The effect > is quite similar. The effect is also there in F1 2000, by the way, > especially with some of the physics tweaks towards realism. > > Why does the car spin in the first place? The simplified idea is that > the grip on the fronts is stronger than the grip of the rears. Once you > lock all the wheels, they only provide the frictional force that shows > in the opposite direction of the travel of the wheel (if the car is not > rotating, this is the direction of the car velocity). Here one must take > into account that the rear wheels on an F1 car have more grip than the > fronts since they need to provide both traction and grip out of corners. > > Now, imagine an F1 car sliding completely sideways with wheels locked, > and forget about aerodynamics. If the car was perfectly symmetric back > to front, there would be no net torque acting on the car, and the car > would just slide sideways. On the other hand, as the rears have more > (sliding) grip than is necessary for the front to back car balance due > to the argument given above, there actually exists a net torque > stabilizing the car. > > Why is this effect less pronounced in F1 2000? It's due to the > combination of higher inertia and lower tire stiffness. This means that > when the car starts the spin (which is at a higher slip angle than in > GP3), it already acqured a lot of rotational inertia, and the > stabilizing force is not high enough to stop this rotation, which also > reflects itself in the fac that most spins never end after 180 degrees > in F1 2000, and this fact isn't helped by the engine revs dropping > really slowly. > > So I would argue that F1 2000 is unrealistic in this respect, not GP3. > If you tweak F1 2000 for better realism, this effect starts occuring > more and more as well. > > > - When the back steps coming out of corners, the effect is very 'clinical' > > (ie. digital) - there's no throttle fineness that can control the car. It's > > almost a digital process of lifting of the throttle and the car stepping > > back in. There's no need to counter-steer as that does not have much effect > > on the situation. The situation is controlled 'only' with the 'lift of'. > > It's a problem of (lack of) feedback. With the mentioned physics tweaks, > F1 2000 also becomes much, much harder to drive when coming out of > corners. This is because because of too low tire stiffness and too high > inertia in the original parameters, the car reaction times are > unrealistically long in F1 2000. While this gives more 'feel', it does > nothing for realism. > > Also, I've played GP3 both with and without FF effects. It's one sim > that really profits from FF, especially when correcting skids. It's very > easy to judge the appropriate amount of opposite lock, and it makes spin > recover a whole new chapter to discover. Still, it's very difficult, as > it needs to be done really fast, and it's more important how you unwind > your steering wheel after opposite locking (just as it should be). > > > - Then there's the whole behaviour of having 1 (or 2) wheels on the grass. > > You can be driving with 1/2 the car in the grass and it makes no difference > > to the handling - the car should be pulling to the side lime mad and also > > the rear wheel in the grass should either spin like crazy (stiff LSD - or no > > LSD) or the car should feel like it lost all the power (soft LSD) ... as the > > wheel on the grass has no grip, it will try and put only 'enough' power (to > > the wheel on the bitumen) to not get wheelspin in the wheel in the grass > > (hope that makes sense). > > - More on the grass thing - you can come out of a corner (still cornering), > > get the back outside wheel into the grass and the car does not even twitch. > > > > You are right about the above points; however, this was an acknowledged > bug and was fixed in the patch. > > > > > These are all the things I noticed in GP3 in my 1st day of playing it... > > more I played it, more obvious this became. The game is lacking in these > > areas - it's very good until you're in an 'on-the limit' (or over it) > > situation. Then it lets me down a bit :-( ... better than GP2, but not as > > good as I'd like. > > > > Regards, > > David Mocnay > > > > Now, I wouldn't say that GP3 is totally realistic. I believe the slip > angles to be slightly to low. I'd say that they should be about 2/3rds > from those of F1 2000 to those of GP3. However, overall GP3 does give a > better impression of a nimble vehicle that an F1 car is. > > -Gregor

David Mocnay wrote:

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > On the subject of 'hitting the brakes when the back is coming out' - the > back has it's own momentum when it steps out, ste sheer weirg of the engine > wants to thow the back around - this is common for all cars ... in > paricualar rear-wheel drive (and even more mid-engined). When u hit the > brakes, you'll transfer more weight forward with not only ligtens the grip > at the back and the back itself, but also beause the back is not directly > behind you, but slighly to the side, it will try and 'thow' the back to the > front (part of the weight transfer). It's a 'standard' behavius for all cars > (even bikes) - it's just laws of thysics atcing on the mass, there's nothing > special in an F1 car that will get you around this.

That's true as long as you don't hit the brakes too hard so that you do not lock the wheels. However, if the brake bias is more to the front, the front tires will lock up first, which means that only the rears can carry the lateral forces. A lot of the behaviour obviously depends on the setup. GP3 very much reflects this. Also, if the car is already very much sideways, hitting the brakes will not cause much further weight transfer, as the friction forces are not acting fore-aft anymore. Even more, in in F1 car the center of gravity is very low compared to the distance between front and rear tires, so weight transfer is much less pronounced than in a sports car or a bike (where upon braking you can almost take the whole weight of the rear tires). You are right about the momentum of the car. It is the product of the yawing velocity and the inertia of the car. However, a modern F1 car has rather low inertia (the engine isn't at the back, but very much close to the center of gravity, making it a mid engined car), as designers strive for it to be that way. Also, the slip angles are relatively low when cornering due to the tires used, so the momentum buildup is not very high during switching directions, which means that the yawing velocity will also be low. F1 2000 has both of these parameters slightly exaggerated, meaning that the momentum of the spin will be much higher and therefore harder to stop. As I said, tweaking F1 2000 towards the previously suggested values will lead to very similar behaviour to that GP3; in fact it can even be made more realistic, as I find the tire cornering stiffness to be slightly too high in GP3 (too low slip angles), based on the footage. > Come to think of it, on > an F1 car the spin should be even more violent then what I'm used to in a > car - that is because by not having the rear wing pointed directly in the > dicevtion of travel will mean that u'll lose downforce at the back - this > should produce a pretty violent snap. > The same is also true for the loss of lift at the front, perhaps even more so, as the sidewalls on the wings are much smaller and are unable to direct the flow as well. > -- > > Regards, > David Mocnay To sum it up; you will notice both kinds of behaviour in GP3, meaning that the car will spin further when hitting the brakes in some situations, or will straighten itself in other. You will notice the same behaviour in any good sim. It mostly depends on the setup, and how violent the spin is. It is all force based physics calculations and not scripted behaviour. -Gregor

Good stuff Gregor, I more or less agree with what you wrote. Though, in 'my' example, I locked up all 4 wheels - in which case the car needs to keep on spinning (especially one the back was already pretty wide out). > >You are right about the momentum of the car. It is the product of the >yawing velocity and the inertia of the car. However, a modern F1 car has >rather low inertia (the engine isn't at the back, but very much close to >the center of gravity, making it a mid engined car), as designers strive This is tricky on an F1 car. This is because the weight distribution changes depending on the wing settings and speed you're traveling. Afterall, it's not uncommon for the rear-wing to generate 2x the weight of the car. Obviously, this would shift the distribution backwards. I'd say it's almost impossible to model the weight distribution compounded with downforce - well not impossible, but it is a lot of math. Also, mid-engine cars are more prone to the back coming around (and going into spin). No matter what, there is more weight at the back than in a front-engine car. Though, as I said, the downforce plays a much greater part here.

Quoted text (10 lines)

>for it to be that way. Also, the slip angles are relatively low when >cornering due to the tires used, so the momentum buildup is not very >high during switching directions, which means that the yawing velocity >will also be low. F1 2000 has both of these parameters slightly >exaggerated, meaning that the momentum of the spin will be much higher >and therefore harder to stop. As I said, tweaking F1 2000 towards the >previously suggested values will lead to very similar behaviour to that >GP3; in fact it can even be made more realistic, as I find the tire >cornering stiffness to be slightly too high in GP3 (too low slip >angles), based on the footage.

I'd say they are 'exadurated' in F1200CE a fair bit. Though, I've fiddled with the intertia to see how it feels/goes. I 1st put in the values that u recomended (800,1000,250) and took it for a spin. The car felt very direct and responsive while driving below the limit. Though, at the point of limit it's so hard to read the car and control it (you have no warning). The car just violently snap and if you try and correct it, you probably will snap the car into a spin in the other direction. Same with curbs - hit them slighlty wrong and the car goes for a 360. I was thinking about this and realized that even though the values could/are 'true to life', unlike 'true to life' we don't have 80% of the feedback that you'd get sitting in the car. You have no 'seat of the pants feel'. No lateral forces, so squirming of tyre/s, no feedback though the wheel. All you really have is visual and aural clues to what is going on. These just are not enough (at least the way they are implemented) to be able to handle a car with these setting. GPL gives u a lot more feedback through the screen so that could get a lot closer to modeling realistic values. Therefore, what I figure, the programmers exadurated these values so that you can 'read' the car though the feedback that they built into the game (mainlty visual). I'd say they have overdone it and exadurated too much. Just fiddling with these 3 numbers I ended up at (1200,1600,600) - this seems to give me a good compromise between the directness/sharpness of the car and the 'queues to read what the car is doing'. The car is twitchy and snappy but with concentration you can 'feel' the car's behavious though the feedback in the game (ie. screen) maybe if I was more familiar with F1CE2000, then I'd be able to read more queues from it, but at the moment, this is about my limit. Hitting a curb wrong will still snap your car into a spin but you seem to have more control over what happens. btw, I have my tyre stiffness set on 60. Ultimatelly, I want to have the same control that I would have if I was driving the real thing from indide it. Not the same control as I'd have by trying to drive an F1 via a remote control. This is very important to me ... more important that what the values actually are. I want it to be on the edge, but I want to have some control there. > >> Come to think of it, on >> an F1 car the spin should be even more violent then what I'm used to in a >> car - that is because by not having the rear wing pointed directly inthe

Quoted text (7 lines)

>> dicevtion of travel will mean that u'll lose downforce at the back - this >> should produce a pretty violent snap. >> > >The same is also true for the loss of lift at the front, perhaps even >more so, as the sidewalls on the wings are much smaller and are unable >to direct the flow as well.

True again, but back-wing produces more downforce than the front one :-) To sum it up; you will notice both kinds of behaviour in GP3, meaning >that the car will spin further when hitting the brakes in some >situations, or will straighten itself in other. You will notice the same >behaviour in any good sim. It mostly depends on the setup, and how >violent the spin is. It is all force based physics calculations and not >scripted behaviour.I'll hop into it again and study it a bit more. Though, it just seemed very digital to me when o nthe limit. ie. get into troble = lift of and car comes back into shape. Again it could just be lack of feedback tthat GP3 provides. Regards and thanks for the response, David Mocnay