ot: traction control....and papys f1 sim,,,,,,and the gpl gangs....

I saw tomas scheckter on track in testing on Friday....he spun out on his first lap out of the pits! lol...he blamed the weather....i had been racing in that weather all morning with no downforce.... :) the thing with F1 at the moment is that there are no poor teams....everything is being run by manufacturers....so bringing traction control back in is good for them, they employ it in their road cars, so want to test it in F1, and use the thing as advertising.... As to whether it lessens the skill needed by the drivers, let me go back to 1993 for a few seconds, when CART hot shoe Michael Andretti came along to F1 to partner Ayrton Senna (arguably one of the best racing drivers ever) at McLaren....now in 93 Williams had the best car, but every team used traction control (hell, 93 they had ALL the gizmos...). Michael was blown away by Sennas speed and was replaced midway through the season by the then test driver Mika Hakkinen. Now Michael is undoubtedly a good driver, so surely traction control shouldve helped him get up to Sennas level of speed? Didnt happen... And what many consider to be the greatest opening lap in the history of F1 was at Donington Park for the European GP in 93, when Senna overtook 5 cars before the end of the first lap (not into the 1st corner, but through every other corner)....Now traction control doesnt give you any extra grip into or through a corner, it only allows you to reach maximum accel out of corners. And it only applies to certain corners, in alot of corners the dowforce is such that you dont have a traction issue. The great drivers will always carry more speed into corners than everyone else....After all, race driving is all about judgement of cornering speed.... Traction control isnt gonna to stop you spinning if you exceed the cars lateral grip limit.... Benettons/Renaults Mike Gascoyne reckons traction control might make the cars about 0.5 secs a lap quicker....but next years tyre battle will lower times by much more, maybe 2-3 seconds a lap... anyways, i want to try driving one, and if i cant do it in real life (yet...) then a papy sim would be a perfect place... and to whether papy are working on f1? ive heard the following...a downforce model equiv to 3gs at speed was implemented into a gpl type car with a more powerfull engine at papy and was tested a while ago...the guys who tried it said that it went really quickly, and was tricky as hell to drive on the limit, which IMO is how driving race cars should be....after all, we dont want any old duffers on the track now do we? we'd end up with a pickup tally race... and the licensing is apparently being looked at by sierra.... so all they have to do now is design the cars, the tracks, and add weather effects like GP3 and theyre onto a winner :) gpl is great, ive played it since its demo release, but its followers (of which i used to consider myself a member) have let their superiority complex get the better of them recently.... pez

OK Senna at Donnigton in 93 was just amazing and being the best he still blew everybody away but just think how nuch further away he'd have been if there was no traction control. It might not make that much difference to coming out of the corners but what about the starts? If everyone has traction control then everyone can make the perfect start with no talent used at all and it will be just down to a horse power race. As it is the skilled drivers can make the better starts and that's what we want to watch. And I'm sure it's far more fun for the drivers trynig to get 800 HP down withount traction help. Let the drivers do the driving not the computer programmers. -- Some Call Me Tim

Gilles V. in the rain was on a whole other level at times. Eddie Cheever tells of how Gilles went out in a monsoon (forget if it was Spa or the Glen) and was *eight seconds* a lap faster than everyone else. No traction control and a horribly peaky engine. Stephen Some Call Me Tim <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:w8uY5.29993$[email hidden]... > OK Senna at Donnigton in 93 was just amazing and being the best he still > blew everybody away but just think how nuch further away he'd have been if > there was no traction control. > > It might not make that much difference to coming out of the corners butwhat > about the starts? If everyone has traction control then everyone can make > the perfect start with no talent used at all and it will be just down to a > horse power race. > > As it is the skilled drivers can make the better starts and that's what we > want to watch. And I'm sure it's far more fun for the drivers trynig toget

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> 800 HP down withount traction help. > > Let the drivers do the driving not the computer programmers. > > > -- > Some Call Me Tim > >

The guy was pretty special in the car control stakes. The race you refer to was the Watkins Glen race in 1979. On the first day of practice, he was actually 11 seconds ahead of the next man (Schecker) MS Stephen Ferguson <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9107tf$sf4$[email hidden]... > Gilles V. in the rain was on a whole other level at times. Eddie Cheever > tells of how Gilles went out in a monsoon (forget if it was Spa or theGlen)

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> and was *eight seconds* a lap faster than everyone else. No traction > control and a horribly peaky engine. > > Stephen > > Some Call Me Tim <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:w8uY5.29993$[email hidden]... > > OK Senna at Donnigton in 93 was just amazing and being the best he still > > blew everybody away but just think how nuch further away he'd have been

if > > there was no traction control. > > > > It might not make that much difference to coming out of the corners but > what > > about the starts? If everyone has traction control then everyone canmake > > the perfect start with no talent used at all and it will be just down toa > > horse power race. > > > > As it is the skilled drivers can make the better starts and that's whatwe

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> > want to watch. And I'm sure it's far more fun for the drivers trynig to > get > > 800 HP down withount traction help. > > > > Let the drivers do the driving not the computer programmers. > > > > > > -- > > Some Call Me Tim > > > > > >

In article <90rrdl$r9e$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > The great drivers will always > carry more speed into corners than everyone else....After all, race driving > is all about judgement of cornering speed.... No, it's about a lot more than that - one of the fundamental rules of an exciting race car to me, is that it has *much* more power than grip - and you tell a good driver from a bad one by how well they can control that car. Sadly, you can only see that skill employed these days by watching motorcycle racing. - Michael

[snip] > Sadly, you can only see that skill employed these days by watching > motorcycle racing. > > - Michael Hehe... Somebody else who's figured it out. :) -Dirt- '00 CBR929RR **Jesus saves sinners and redeems them for valuable cash prizes** Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

As much as I love F1 and CART, the greatest reason for my grief at not being able to get Speedvision from my current cable company is that I can't watch all of the motorcycle racing any more. You can't stop progress, but I'm sure I'm not the first to say that aerodynamic downforce is the enemy of good racing. Rick

Mike wrote on 11 Dec 2000: <snip> >Sadly, you can only see that skill employed these days by watching >motorcycle racing. Steady on - F1 isn't the only car racing in town! -- David. (final [?] GPLRank handicap: -5.92) The GPL Scrapyard - http://www.hillclimbfan.f2s.com "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh.

In article <[email hidden]>, Mike <[email hidden]> writes:

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>In article <90rrdl$r9e$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] >says... >> The great drivers will always >> carry more speed into corners than everyone else....After all, race driving >> is all about judgement of cornering speed.... > >No, it's about a lot more than that - one of the fundamental rules of an >exciting race car to me, is that it has *much* more power than grip - >and you tell a good driver from a bad one by how well they can control >that car. > >Sadly, you can only see that skill employed these days by watching >motorcycle racing. >

All I see by watching motorcycle racing is that those guys are f'king NUTS!<g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +40.48 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EldredP wrote: > All I see by watching motorcycle racing is that those guys are f'king NUTS!<g> Kinda makes you wonder how they can even sit on the bikes...talk about big balls.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > >Sadly, you can only see that skill employed these days by watching > >motorcycle racing. > > Steady on - F1 isn't the only car racing in town! No, but unfortunately it dominates the TV coverage in Europe. On satellite you can get some pretty good car racing i.e. Caterhams, Porsche Cup, and have you ever seen TVR Tuscans? That is a good example of power overcoming grip:-) - Michael

In article <9136e3$2sb4s$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > You can't stop progress, but I'm sure I'm not the first to say that > aerodynamic downforce is the enemy of good racing. Yes - and most people agree on that, but no-one knows what to do about it. You'd think the car manufacturers would not want downforce racing, after all the sort of aerodynamics used in racing are completely inapplicable to road cars - the drag is just too high. - Michael

MichaelJP wrote on 12 Dec 2000: >No, but unfortunately it dominates the TV coverage in Europe. On >satellite you can get some pretty good car racing i.e. Caterhams, >Porsche Cup, and have you ever seen TVR Tuscans? That is a good example >of power overcoming grip:-) I certainly have seen Tuscans - in fact, the first motor race I ever saw was a TVR Tuscan one, on the Saturday of the last ever Birmingham Superprix meeting. IIRC, the race was enlivened by one of the leaders' bonnets flying up into his windscreen on the main straight. The driver did an excellent job to control the car and get it into the pits. As many will know, my preferred motorsport is hillclimbing, where there is normally a huge variety of cars within one meeting, so whatever your preferred power:grip ratio, there's probably somthing there to satisfy you (I remember a bright red Lancia 037 not so long ago - lovely). When I go to a circuit, it's usually Castle Combe, which I very much like. As it happens, I have the Easter programme on hand: T-Cars (those things for 14-16-yr-olds); MG Midgets; Ford Fiestas; Special GTs (Camaros/Sierra Cosworths/911s/Mallocks); Ford Saloons (for *any* Ford saloons - XR2s up to a WRC and an RS500) The local FF1600 championship (very good it is too); Anglo-American challenge (MGs/TVRs/Jags/Mustangs/Corvettes/Sunbeam Tigers); The local saloon championship (Astras/Rover 220s/BMWs/Golfs/Honda CRXs); Road Saloons (Civics/Astras/Peugeot 205s/Golfs/Suzuki Swifts) Not a bad mixture - and some of the drivers certainly gave the lie to the "FWD cars can't be powerslid" idea!) As for telly, I accept that F1 dominates, but here in the UK at least, both rallying and touring cars get a decent profile. And as long as you're prepared to dig around in the Radio Times and do strange things with your video, you can get F3, drag racing, CART, sportscars, British rallying... it's not too bad, really. -- David. (final [?] GPLRank handicap: -5.92) The GPL Scrapyard - http://www.hillclimbfan.f2s.com "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh.

David Buttery wrote:

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> > As for telly, I accept that F1 dominates, but here in the UK at least, both > rallying and touring cars get a decent profile. And as long as you're > prepared to dig around in the Radio Times and do strange things with your > video, you can get F3, drag racing, CART, sportscars, British rallying... > it's not too bad, really. > > -- > David. (final [?] GPLRank handicap: -5.92) > The GPL Scrapyard - http://www.hillclimbfan.f2s.com > "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really" - > Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh.

Which reminds me, did anyone catch the Elf Masters karting event on Eurosport? The F1 names weren't there this year, but the action was interesting anyway. Plus, it's likely the only series where you get out of a pileup by picking up your car ;). -Gregor

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > As many will know, my preferred motorsport is hillclimbing, where there is > normally a huge variety of cars within one meeting, so whatever your > preferred power:grip ratio, there's probably somthing there to satisfy you > (I remember a bright red Lancia 037 not so long ago - lovely). Seen hillclimbing on TV, I'll have to go one of these days. Does Roy Lane still do it? Last time I watched it he was amazing for an "old geezer" in what looked like a modified F1 car! - Michael

MichaelJP wrote on 13 Dec 2000: >Seen hillclimbing on TV, I'll have to go one of these days. Please do - you'll love it I'm sure. Be prepared, though - there's usually nowhere to shelter (except under trees), and the paths up the hill (at Shelsley Walsh especially) are notoriously steep and narrow - and often *very* muddy. Still, you'll get close to an F1-engined car at full chat here than anywhere else. And if you can't/won't eat bacon rolls, you'll be a bit stuck for food :-) >Does Roy Lane still do it? Last time I watched it he was amazing for an >"old geezer" in what looked like a modified F1 car! He keeps implying that he's going to retire - and then coming back the next year! I'd guess he'll probably only do the Midland hills in 2001 (Shelsley, his home hill of Prescottt and maybe Loton Park). Mind you, Tony Marsh is even older than Roy! -- David. (GPLRank handicap: -5.92) The GPL Scrapyard - http://www.hillclimbfan.f2s.com "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh.

In article <[email hidden]>, Gary Stephenson <[email hidden]> writes:

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>EldredP wrote: > >> All I see by watching motorcycle racing is that those guys are f'king >NUTS!<g> > > >Kinda makes you wonder how they can even sit on the bikes...talk about >big balls.

LOL! It still amazes me to watch these guys. One will high-side 20 feet in the air at 100mph, finish tumbling, the be pissed off because his bike is too badly damaged to continue... I'd be looking for another CAREER... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +40.48 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On 13 Dec 2000 21:23:45 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote:

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>In article <[email hidden]>, Gary Stephenson <[email hidden]> >writes: > >>EldredP wrote: >> >>> All I see by watching motorcycle racing is that those guys are f'king >>NUTS!<g> >> >> >>Kinda makes you wonder how they can even sit on the bikes...talk about >>big balls. > >LOL! It still amazes me to watch these guys. One will high-side 20 feet in >the air at 100mph, finish tumbling, the be pissed off because his bike is too >badly damaged to continue... I'd be looking for another CAREER... >

I'd be looking for a new pair of pants. And probably a limb or two. DG