GPL cheat - did we want this?

Yo! I've read some postings both at RAS and at other places. They main team from the defenders of the patch goes somethin like this: "If you don't like cheating, compete with non-cheaters" Trouble is: Cheaters will prefer to compete with non-cheaters. Weight lifters using steroids will prefer to compete with weight lifters not using steroids. This "patch" complicates things slightly. If I drive a Cooper at Spa, fighting against an Eagle, I *know* he is "cheating". But if he drives a Cooper with an Eagle engine.....??? GPLrank? Yes, people *can* alter their driver.ini manually, but I think most people won't do it. They would feel like a criminal. But if their driver.ini is altered by a patch....??? That's another issue. This "patch" will ruin GPLrank as we know it today. From now on GPLrank will need 49 different classes: one for each chassis-engine combination. The benchmark (the times of '67) will be a joke. I will race anybody, provided they know the track. This patch will not change that, though it will make it impossible for me to know what kind of car performance I'm up against. This will add thrill, but this kind of thrill I could very well do without. Some may argue that using this patch is no more cheating than using a different setup. I both disagree and disagree. It is not cheating if everybody uses is, but it is cheating against the achievments done by drivers until today (measured in GPLrank or at Schubi's). Schubi obviously has realized this, and has shut down his site. GPL is born again, with 49 different cars. They all looks the same as the original GPL cars, but they handle differently. I do not know if this is a birth I would like to see happen or if I would prefer an abortion. I do know that I will miss Schubi's. Jon Andersen

I practise for months on 1 track, and finally reach my first win... the echoes from down the hall reach fruition, and the message is "CHEATER!". Hold on fellas.... we are in for a ride... this will destroy the GPL community integrity. Regards, Schumi "Jon Andersen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:v_cY5.1845$[email hidden]... > Yo! > > I've read some postings both at RAS and at other places. They main teamfrom > the defenders of the patch goes somethin like this: > > "If you don't like cheating, compete with non-cheaters" > > Trouble is: Cheaters will prefer to compete with non-cheaters. Weight > lifters using steroids will prefer to compete with weight lifters notusing

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> steroids. > > This "patch" complicates things slightly. If I drive a Cooper at Spa, > fighting against an Eagle, I *know* he is "cheating". But if he drives a > Cooper with an Eagle engine.....??? > > GPLrank? Yes, people *can* alter their driver.ini manually, but I think

most > people won't do it. They would feel like a criminal. But if theirdriver.ini > is altered by a patch....??? That's another issue. > > This "patch" will ruin GPLrank as we know it today. From now on GPLrankwill

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> need 49 different classes: one for each chassis-engine combination. The > benchmark (the times of '67) will be a joke. > > I will race anybody, provided they know the track. This patch will not > change that, though it will make it impossible for me to know what kind of > car performance I'm up against. This will add thrill, but this kind of > thrill I could very well do without. > > Some may argue that using this patch is no more cheating than using a > different setup. I both disagree and disagree. It is not cheating if > everybody uses is, but it is cheating against the achievments done by > drivers until today (measured in GPLrank or at Schubi's). Schubi obviously > has realized this, and has shut down his site. > > GPL is born again, with 49 different cars. They all looks the same as the > original GPL cars, but they handle differently. I do not know if this is a > birth I would like to see happen or if I would prefer an abortion. I do

know > that I will miss Schubi's. > > Jon Andersen >

[email hidden] (Jon Andersen) wrote in <v_cY5.1845$[email hidden]>: >Yo! > >I've read some postings both at RAS and at other places. They main team from >the defenders of the patch goes somethin like this: > >"If you don't like cheating, compete with non-cheaters" There is a time honored tradition of cheating in real world motorsports, many of the people we see as the greats cheated whenever they could, just read some stories of Roger Penkse during the TransAm days. People will do it if they think they can get away with it, and the only thing that stops them is enforcable rules. The patch blows a big hole in our ability to enforce. >This "patch" will ruin GPLrank as we know it today. I unfortunately agree. All the effort that has been put in by people working on their ranking, 2568 accounts, particularly chassis rankings, has been undermined as of today. Ricardo and Paul Thurston just took a bulldozer and reconfigured the playing field. You would think that being a GPLRank administrator, Ricardo would have given this a bit of consideration. >I do know that I will miss Schubi's. That's apparently something else that they couldn't be bothered considering. -- Don Scurlock Vancouver,B.C. GPLRank -5.09 Come see how you rank, at the GPLRank site http://gplrank.ringlord.com/

Jon Andersen wrote on 08 Dec 2000: <snip> >Trouble is: Cheaters will prefer to compete with non-cheaters. Weight >lifters using steroids will prefer to compete with weight lifters not >using steroids. I agree absolutely. Look at athletics - ask the average person what he thinks of the sprinters, for example, and they'll often say, "well they're all on drugs anyway". No-one believes their denails, even when they're true. >This "patch" complicates things slightly. If I drive a Cooper at Spa, >fighting against an Eagle, I *know* he is "cheating". But if he drives a >Cooper with an Eagle engine.....??? I'm not sure about your first point - I can do 3:25 in a Cooper at Spa, and I'm hardly a world-beater. The Cooper can more or less live with the Eagle everywhere except the straights. >GPLrank? Yes, people *can* alter their driver.ini manually, but I think >most people won't do it. They would feel like a criminal. But if their >driver.ini is altered by a patch....??? That's another issue. This affects me, too - GPL Assistant does change driver.ini (as that's where things like driving resolution are stored), but I've gone to some considerable lengths to prevent it altering any times. My early thoughts on GPLA+ included ways of making this stronger (one of the reasons for making it open-source is to reassure people on this point) - now what do I do? >This "patch" will ruin GPLrank as we know it today. From now on GPLrank >will need 49 different classes: one for each chassis-engine combination. >The benchmark (the times of '67) will be a joke. To be honest, I think GPLRank may have had it. There's already cheating, but at the moment it's usually detectable (railriding etc). With this, the workload involved in figuring out whether someone is cheating will be impossibly heavy. And GPLRank's benchmarks for this were the World Records as posted on Schubi's site - which has now gone. >I will race anybody, provided they know the track. This patch will not >change that, though it will make it impossible for me to know what kind >of car performance I'm up against. This will add thrill, but this kind >of thrill I could very well do without. No argument. I've always resisted installing things like the '68 carset, as they don't feel right, even though they don't affect the performance of the cars. This does. >Some may argue that using this patch is no more cheating than using a >different setup. I both disagree and disagree. It is not cheating if >everybody uses is, but it is cheating against the achievments done by >drivers until today (measured in GPLrank or at Schubi's). Schubi >obviously has realized this, and has shut down his site. Which is a disaster for all of us. I got a real sense of achievement from making the top 100 at Spa - without Schubi's I'd probably never have really got into GPL. I'll bet there'll be a lot fewer new players now - all the "welcome to the rest of your life" posts with great long lists of links will have to include a warning about this, and it's bound to put some people off. >GPL is born again, with 49 different cars. They all looks the same as >the original GPL cars, but they handle differently. I do not know if >this is a birth I would like to see happen or if I would prefer an >abortion. I do know that I will miss Schubi's. If it can be stopped, it must be. (Come on Papy, how about GPL 1.3 to stop this?) If it can't... we may have seen the end of GPL as the benchmark sim. I'm convinced that quite a few GPL developers will stop work on their projects now. A sad day all round. -- David. (GPLRank handicap: -5.92) The GPL Scrapyard - http://www.hillclimbfan.f2s.com "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh.

Don, Unfortunately, I agree that this will destroy GPL as we know it. But that's not why I'm writing. Roger Penske stories during the Trans Am era are the best. Remember when he put vinyl tops on the Camero's and proclaimed to the scrutineers that, "We think they look better that way." If your unfamiliar with the story, Penske had acid dipped the bodies in order to make them lighter. It was so effective that the roof of the car would ripple and flap going down high speed straights. So he covered them with vinyl. The man is absolutely brilliant. Rick "Don Scurlock" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:90049401Bdscurlock@news... > [email hidden] (Jon Andersen) wrote in > <v_cY5.1845$[email hidden]>: > > >Yo! > > > >I've read some postings both at RAS and at other places. They main teamfrom > >the defenders of the patch goes somethin like this: > > > >"If you don't like cheating, compete with non-cheaters" > > There is a time honored tradition of cheating in real world motorsports,many > of the people we see as the greats cheated whenever they could, just readsome

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> stories of Roger Penkse during the TransAm days. People will do it if they > think they can get away with it, and the only thing that stops them is > enforcable rules. The patch blows a big hole in our ability to enforce. > > >This "patch" will ruin GPLrank as we know it today. > > I unfortunately agree. All the effort that has been put in by people

working on > their ranking, 2568 accounts, particularly chassis rankings, has been > undermined as of today. Ricardo and Paul Thurston just took a bulldozerand

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> reconfigured the playing field. You would think that being a GPLRank > administrator, Ricardo would have given this a bit of consideration. > > > >I do know that I will miss Schubi's. > > That's apparently something else that they couldn't be bothered

considering.

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> > > -- > Don Scurlock > Vancouver,B.C. > GPLRank -5.09 > > Come see how you rank, at the GPLRank site > http://gplrank.ringlord.com/

In article <v_cY5.1845$[email hidden]>, "Jon Andersen" <[email hidden]> writes: >This "patch" complicates things slightly. If I drive a Cooper at Spa, >fighting against an Eagle, I *know* he is "cheating". Cheating - how? Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +40.48 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Hi guys, I agree with most posts that this utility has the potential to damage the Gentlemans image of GPL on-line, but only if we let it.. Taken as an addition to GPL this utility has merits as well as a down side. Lets face it, most VROC pick-up races are usually about the same intensity of a demolition derby (i know, not all of them) but a good percentage of them are, so in a situation like that, does it really matter if Joe Citizen is using a Repco/Eagle, or whatever... Most of us regulars on RAS and VROC who have been involved with GPL on-line since it's conception, also know who the good/decent/clean/sensible etc etc drivers are, and we also know what their average speeds and times are like, so in reality, we will know if someone is using this utility to make out he or she is much faster in a given Chassis/Marque than they were previously. BUT, this also has the potential to be used for good as well as evil.. What is wrong with a host putting up a race with the words "Modified Cars allowed" in the server options field. We could all have a damn good time without the words "Cheater" being applied, simply by classing this utility as a 8th Marque creator, lets call it "Modified" class. If everyone in the race is using their own special version of a "Modified" marque, then the racing will not only be fun, it will also be very entertaining and interesting to see what guys can come up with what combinations to produce a "Modified" class of racing on VROC taht would be un-heard of in standard GPL.. There would be no allegations of cheating in this class, as everyone would be running a "Modified" marque, so i think now that this utility has been released, we can either embrace it's potential and live with it's down side, or we just continue to winge and moan about how it is ruining on-line racing in GPL and let peer pressure and "his/my opinions" rule the way we actually race and enjoy GPL on-line. Sure, there will be cheats, but the regulars will not bother cheating, especially if we as a sim racing group recognize the new class of GPL cars called "Modifieds" and have fun designing them and racing them in their own class.. Regarding league cheats, i have seen a few posts that say that this will kill on-line leagues, but that is total crap.. If the guys that you have in your leagues cannot be trusted to run standard GPL cars, then they don't belong in your league to start with. In the league i am affiliated with (GMSS) i know that i can personally trust each and every member to do the right thing and not cheat, and that is the way league drivers should be.. I will admit that this has a potential of throwing a lot of hotlap sites into chaos, but usually a hot lap site requires a replay of the lap in question, so how hard is it to look at the replay to see what the terminal top speed and tacho are reading and comparing that to what we know the designated marque can do in reality? I know, it requires more work from the administrator of the hotlap site, but it is not the end of the world as too many posts here have tried to proclaim it will be. Wether we like it or lump it, this utility has been released and as a community, we need to look at ways to use it to our advantage, and not let it pull GPL and the community we have developed around GPL/VROC down into the drain. Using a "Modified" class of Marque on VROC, or even in leagues, will allow everyone to run what he/she wants without the tab of cheater being applied, and after we have our modified races etc, we can go back to our 7 standard Marques for normal GPL style racing.. Cheats will always cheat, and honest drivers will remain honest, but we know each other by now, so lets just live with it and try and turn this bad situation into a "plus" situation for GPL and VROC, rather than speak continually of doom and gloom... Finally let me say that i don't agree with these performance enhancing patches that appear out of the wood work on occasions, and i wish they would never appear, but they do appear and will continue to do so... Some of these patches/utilities might give us the ability to produce out-of-bounds setups, more hp, more traction etc etc, and while i don't agree with them, i am realistic enough to know my views won't stop them, so i try to find ways to counter them, and having/using a "Modified" class in GPL on VROC, will allow that to a certain degree with the engine change utility.. Cheers, Ron Ayton Australia Jon Andersen <[email hidden]> wrote in article <v_cY5.1845$[email hidden]>... > Yo! > > I've read some postings both at RAS and at other places. They mainteam from > the defenders of the patch goes somethin like this: > > "If you don't like cheating, compete with non-cheaters" > > Trouble is: Cheaters will prefer to compete with non-cheaters. Weight > lifters using steroids will prefer to compete with weight lifters notusing > steroids. >

> >This "patch" complicates things slightly. If I drive a Cooper at Spa, > >fighting against an Eagle, I *know* he is "cheating". > > Cheating - how? > > Eldred If I drive a Cooper at Spa, I know I have a disadvantage against Eagle drivers. Therefore I regard the competition as slightly unfair. But that's ok. If I win, it makes me feel even better, knowing he had a faster car than me. With this new patch, I cannot know if the fellow I am racing is a better driver than me, or if he has a bigger engine, even though we seemingly drive the same car. This "patch" has turned GPL into another game. 49 different cars in 7 different chassis. But this new game is cunningly disguised as GPL. Jon Andersen

I don't enjoy it when I am called a cheater because I turned a 1:28.5 in a monza race in my default 100% pure Honda. It is very tough for the GPL community to be able to trust anyone driving a slow car fast now for the fear of an engine overhaul. Oh well...I suppose we can hope for someone to make an anti-cheat patch. JB "Jon Andersen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:v_cY5.1845$[email hidden]... > Yo! > > I've read some postings both at RAS and at other places. They main teamfrom > the defenders of the patch goes somethin like this: > > "If you don't like cheating, compete with non-cheaters" > > Trouble is: Cheaters will prefer to compete with non-cheaters. Weight > lifters using steroids will prefer to compete with weight lifters notusing

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> steroids. > > This "patch" complicates things slightly. If I drive a Cooper at Spa, > fighting against an Eagle, I *know* he is "cheating". But if he drives a > Cooper with an Eagle engine.....??? > > GPLrank? Yes, people *can* alter their driver.ini manually, but I think

most > people won't do it. They would feel like a criminal. But if theirdriver.ini > is altered by a patch....??? That's another issue. > > This "patch" will ruin GPLrank as we know it today. From now on GPLrankwill

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> need 49 different classes: one for each chassis-engine combination. The > benchmark (the times of '67) will be a joke. > > I will race anybody, provided they know the track. This patch will not > change that, though it will make it impossible for me to know what kind of > car performance I'm up against. This will add thrill, but this kind of > thrill I could very well do without. > > Some may argue that using this patch is no more cheating than using a > different setup. I both disagree and disagree. It is not cheating if > everybody uses is, but it is cheating against the achievments done by > drivers until today (measured in GPLrank or at Schubi's). Schubi obviously > has realized this, and has shut down his site. > > GPL is born again, with 49 different cars. They all looks the same as the > original GPL cars, but they handle differently. I do not know if this is a > birth I would like to see happen or if I would prefer an abortion. I do

know > that I will miss Schubi's. > > Jon Andersen >

Wosco wrote on 09 Dec 2000: >I don't enjoy it when I am called a cheater because I turned a 1:28.5 in >a monza race in my default 100% pure Honda.<snip> That's just ignorance on the part of your accusers. If they spent 10 seconds looking at (more to the point, listening to) your rev range, they'd know what you had in the back. -- David. (final [?] GPLRank handicap: -5.92) The GPL Scrapyard - http://www.hillclimbfan.f2s.com "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh.

Ron Ayton wrote on 09 Dec 2000: <snip> >Most of us regulars on RAS and VROC who have been involved with GPL >on-line since it's conception, also know who the >good/decent/clean/sensible etc etc drivers are, and we also know what >their average speeds and times are like, so in reality, we will know if >someone is using this utility to make out he or she is much faster in a >given Chassis/Marque than they were previously.<snip> Yes, BUT what about the new converts to GPL, that we've all welcomed with open arms (and I hope will continue to do so)? You can't restrict VROC etc to only those drivers whom you know. You have to allow new drivers in, and that means you can't always go on past reputation - becasue these people don't have one. I'm less gloomy than I was last night - judging by my handful of VROC races since, it does seem that there is a very (*Very*) strong feeling against people using Brab-Hondas and pretending they're not. I think VROC will pull through, and I think most people will stick to the "real" cars, even if an "Allow Modifieds" flag is built into VROC. However, I do think that this patch has done considerably more harm than good, and I do wonder how many of the "non-core" GPL sites will carry on. -- David. (final [?] GPLRank handicap: -5.92) The GPL Scrapyard - http://www.hillclimbfan.f2s.com "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh.

Ok, so you're an alien... better? ;-) Jan. =--- Wosco wrote...

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> I don't enjoy it when I am called a cheater because > I turned a 1:28.5 in a monza race in my default 100% > pure Honda. It is very tough for the GPL community > to be able to trust anyone driving a slow car fast > now for the fear of an engine overhaul. Oh well... > I suppose we can hope for someone to make an anti- > cheat patch. > > JB

<snip>

> I don't enjoy it when I am called a cheater because I turned a > 1:28.5 in a monza race in my default 100% pure Honda. I can't imagine anybody calling "cheater" to somebody who drives a Honda. I mean, what are you going to do to a Honda to make it faster? It already has the most power. The Honda's main penalty is it's weight. -Chris- **Jesus saves sinners and redeems them for valuable cash prizes** Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

In article <[email hidden]>, "Jason \"Schumi\" Murray" <[email hidden]> wrote: > I practise for months on 1 track, and finally reach my first win...the > echoes from down the hall reach fruition, and the messageis "CHEATER!". Congratulations -- you have just joined an esteemed group that includes such distinguished people as Andy Granatelli, Roger Penske, and A.J. Foyt. It's lonely at the top -- live with it. > Hold on fellas.... we are in for a ride... this will destroy the GPL > community integrity. It's time for a BUNCH of people to get OFF the pretentiousness bus, I think. -- JB Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

I agree with you totally too David, but like i said, it is out now and we as a group need to make the best of a bad situation. The new comers to GPL will still get the same pleasure out of GPL that we all have, and it is up to us regulars etc to make their entry into GPL and other sims worthwhile, wether there are performance patches or not.. Basically, what i meant was that it has happened now, just like we all knew it would eventually, so we have to find ways to counteract or use it to GPL's benefit, or we simply just give up and play dead.. Having a Modified class of GPL racing is just one idea to help counteract the cry of "Cheater"... Like you and most other users, i wish it had never happened, but it has.. Cheers, Ron David Buttery <[email hidden]> wrote in article <[email hidden]>... > Yes, BUT what about the new converts to GPL, that we've all welcomedwith > open arms (and I hope will continue to do so)? You can't restrictVROC > etc to only those drivers whom you know. You have to allow newdrivers > in, and that means you can't always go on past reputation - becasuethese > people don't have one. > > I'm less gloomy than I was last night - judging by my handful ofVROC > races since, it does seem that there is a very (*Very*) strongfeeling > against people using Brab-Hondas and pretending they're not. I thinkVROC > will pull through, and I think most people will stick to the "real"cars, > even if an "Allow Modifieds" flag is built into VROC. > > However, I do think that this patch has done considerably more harmthan > good, and I do wonder how many of the "non-core" GPL sites will carryon. > > -- > David. (final [?] GPLRank handicap: -5.92) > The GPL Scrapyard - http://www.hillclimbfan.f2s.com > "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll,really" > - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh. >

In article <RtpY5.1878$[email hidden]>, "Jon Andersen" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>> >This "patch" complicates things slightly. If I drive a Cooper at Spa, >> >fighting against an Eagle, I *know* he is "cheating". >> >> Cheating - how? >> >> Eldred > >If I drive a Cooper at Spa, I know I have a disadvantage against Eagle >drivers. Therefore I regard the competition as slightly unfair. But that's >ok. If I win, it makes me feel even better, knowing he had a faster car than >me.

Well, I wouldn't say he was *cheating*. He just picked a faster car... > >With this new patch, I cannot know if the fellow I am racing is a better >driver than me, or if he has a bigger engine, even though we seemingly drive >the same car. Now this *would* be cheating. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +40.48 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Hi Eldred, the problem IMO is when racing against the same make of car. You never know whether differences in speed are based on driver capabilities, or on different engines. Achim "EldredP" <[email hidden]> escribi� en el mensaje news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <RtpY5.1878$[email hidden]>, "Jon Andersen" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >> >This "patch" complicates things slightly. If I drive a Cooper at Spa, > >> >fighting against an Eagle, I *know* he is "cheating". > >> > >> Cheating - how? > >> > >> Eldred > > > >If I drive a Cooper at Spa, I know I have a disadvantage against Eagle > >drivers. Therefore I regard the competition as slightly unfair. But

that's > >ok. If I win, it makes me feel even better, knowing he had a faster carthan > >me. > Well, I wouldn't say he was *cheating*. He just picked a faster car... > > > >With this new patch, I cannot know if the fellow I am racing is a better > >driver than me, or if he has a bigger engine, even though we seeminglydrive

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> >the same car. > > Now this *would* be cheating. > > Eldred > -- > Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPL hcp. +40.48 > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats

you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

>"Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote > the problem IMO is when racing against the same make of car. You neverknow > whether differences in speed are based on driver capabilities, or on > different engines. Just look at the sound of their engines. It's not that complicated. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

>"Wosco" <[email hidden]> wrote > I don't enjoy it when I am called a cheater because I turned a 1:28.5 in a > monza race in my default 100% pure Honda. Wow broking the 1:29 barrier with the Honda is really something. Congratulations. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

ymenard wrote on 10 Dec 2000: >Just look at the sound of their engines.<snip> Hmm - is that a Murrayism as well? ;-) -- David. (final [?] GPLRank handicap: -5.92) The GPL Scrapyard - http://www.hillclimbfan.f2s.com "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh.

On Sun, 10 Dec 2000 21:06:25 GMT, "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>>"Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote >> the problem IMO is when racing against the same make of car. You never >know >> whether differences in speed are based on driver capabilities, or on >> different engines. > >Just look at the sound of their engines. It's not that complicated.

Looking at sound it quite complicated. Andre

>"David Buttery" <[email hidden]> wrote > >Just look at the sound of their engines. > <snip> > > Hmm - is that a Murrayism as well? ;-) Just a joke to Bruce :) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

In article <prCY5.31921$[email hidden]>, "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> writes: >Hi Eldred, > >the problem IMO is when racing against the same make of car. You never know >whether differences in speed are based on driver capabilities, or on >different engines. Correct. But, what can you do...?<shrug> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +40.48 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On Sun, 10 Dec 2000 21:06:25 GMT, "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>>"Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote >> the problem IMO is when racing against the same make of car. You never >know >> whether differences in speed are based on driver capabilities, or on >> different engines. > >Just look at the sound of their engines. It's not that complicated.

And just how do you do that exactly?! I've heard that with powerful explosions the air is compressed so massively you can acually see the sound, but to see the sound of an engine would be quite an achievement! John

> >It's time for a BUNCH of people to get OFF the pretentiousness bus, I >think. > >-- JB It has been time for a while now. That's why I don't race online anymore. I was there from the start of VROC and I loved racing online and even made some friends there. It was a really fun community. Then the racers started to break off in to leagues in order to avoid racing with the GPL unwashed and it all went down hill from there. On the occasion that I do log on for a race, there always seems to be some hothead there mouthing off to someone about a botched start or something like that. It isn't everyone but, in general the VROC community has become a much more hostile place and it's a damn shame. As for cheating? Well, it's not like cheating in other multi-player games. For instance ,in Quake2 you have proxybots. Now THATS cheating, straight up. With the engine mods in GPL it at least still takes skill to get the thing around the track. I agree that it changes things considerably but I can't see how it ruins the whole game. I have a feeling that the same people that use to beat the pants off me would still be able to do it, even if I did cheat.