From the guy that released the Engine Swapper Util. (Must read, see how silly some of you were).

From Tim Wheatley's site, (www.legendscentral.com): "From Paul Thurston: Let me first state that I am not a cheat. Anyone who knows me or has raced against me should know that. The sanctity of online leagues and hotlap sites is important to me. People have to know that they're playing the same game as everyone else. That was, perhaps ironically the motivation behind me writing GEM. It is better for everyone to have it that only a few. I have come in for a lot of criticism for releasing it. That was expected. I could have released it anonomously or under a pseudonym but I believe you should take responsibility for your own actions. I wish that GPL was unhackable. Unfortunately it is not. The information on the cars is in there. Deep down I've always known it was possible to change the cars. Anyone with a little programming knowledge did. I've seen posts saying that it was impossible to cheat at GPL. Anyone thinking that was just kidding themselves. I did not go looking for a way of changing the performance. I was told how to swap engines a couple of weeks ago and my first reaction was of shock and horror. My second reaction was that it would be nice for the Cooper to finally have the power it's chassis deserved and even up the field a bit - it would make for some good racing. Then I started to think about the implications and it dawned on me that if I knew about it then it was very unlikely that others hadn't known for some time and were using it secretly. If someone had decompiled the exe to the extent that they knew how to do this then they certainly knew a lot more besides. Changing the engine could be a good thing but it had to be policeable. We contacted Martin Granberg and Alison Hine, telling them what we knew. We wanted Martin to add a feature to Replay Analyser to detect if not the exact engine being used, at least that the replay was dodgy. We sent him replays to work on. It is trivially simple to swap engines. I told a trustable friend roughly what you had to do and he did it with a hex editor with no further instructions. He is no programmer. If he can do it then anyone can. We wanted Alison to put out a patch for WinVROC to check the exe was clean before you could join a race. She told us that she couldn't as she didn't have the source code any more. Alison alerted Papyrus to the hack and we got an email from Grant Reeve basically saying he'd speak to some others but that he didn't think they would patch a two year old game. Martin after some work came back and said that he didn't think it was possible to reliably detect the engine from the replay because of GPL's prediction. I worked to find a way I could detect it's use. The problem is that everything seems to affect only the client. It was becoming apparent that either it was impossible to stop this or people just wanted to hush it up. It was also becoming very clear to me from what people were saying that people have been cheating in various ways for a very long time, possibly since version 1.0. I asked a group of online friends what they thought. There were reservations from some but the vast majority thought that it should be released. I made the decision to release. The issue had to be forced. Now it's out, suddenly everyone is trying to find ways of policing it. This is a very good thing. I want a sim where we know what the situation is. It is very important that future sims are able to check what people are using on the client. Is the exe a clean one? Is the track file the same on all the machines? Ricardo and I are being made scapegoats. We are just the whistleblowers. If us being villified and publicly humiliated means: (a) the people who *really* know about GPL work quickly to close this hole (b) future sims are made better so they are policeable Then I will consider it worth it. Paul." -- Rob Swindells // http://www.robswindells.com http://www.f1core.com // "Question: Why [is GPL], [one] of the best driving games ever made, so hard to find and under-f*****g-appreciated? It's damn near criminal..." ~Frank // Uh... yeah, Brain, but where are we going to find rubber pants our size?

In my opinion this utility just revives an ageing game, not everybody races on VROC or submits their laptimes for GPL rank..... I have had a ball the last few days racing a Ferrari/Honda (offline), and this utility alone has re ignited the flame for me! For what it's worth, thank you Rob, it's guys like you that make pc games fun.. I wonder if somebody came up with a 1976 GPL patch if there'd be so much negativity...?

Rob Swindells wrote on 11 Dec 2000: >From Tim Wheatley's site, (www.legendscentral.com): > >"From Paul Thurston<snip> I'm not sure I completely share Paul's points of view, but I must admit that it's a very consistently argued piece, and certainly cheers me up. I was one of those who rushed into the "ooh, it's the end" pieces, which I have now retreated from. I was wrong about that - I wish this tool had never come out (I think saying "it was already possible" is a bit disingenuous, as so few people who would cheat had the knowledge it was barely an issue), but it ain't going away now. One can't say it will cause no damage - the end of Schubi's is a *big* hit in itself - but I'm considerably less gloomy than I was, and *if* a VROC flag can be worked out, then that part at least should be OK. (Don't say "join a league" - like many others, I don't keep a regular schedule.) The big unknown is what happens to GPLRank - and AFAIK this is still undecided. -- David. (final [?] GPLRank handicap: -5.92) The GPL Scrapyard - http://www.hillclimbfan.f2s.com "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh.

Well Done and Well said Paul,I do not race online,but by your actions,you are bringing the playing field back to level. PS having a ball trying different engines,cheers Skell

Hi all, I hope they don't shutdown GPLRank since I am not yet negative :o) No, that does not mean that this is the reason !!! GPLRank is a institution so great and worthy, it must not be laid to rest in peace ! As for VROC I think that since GPL gets executed by the launcher, it should be easy to integrate some binary comparision. This demands, of course that the sections where the engine/chassi data is located be the same in every localized version. But then it should be possible. Actually the launcher can be hacked as well. But this one could be uploaded by VROC on every login. People will have to hex-edit their memory contents then. This could make things complicated enough for the first stage. Hope that someone finds something useable soon.... Keep GPL alive ! J�rg P.S. Paul's statement somehow impressed me. David Buttery <[email hidden]> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag: [email hidden]...

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> Rob Swindells wrote on 11 Dec 2000: > > >From Tim Wheatley's site, (www.legendscentral.com): > > > >"From Paul Thurston > <snip> > > I'm not sure I completely share Paul's points of view, but I must admit > that it's a very consistently argued piece, and certainly cheers me up. > > I was one of those who rushed into the "ooh, it's the end" pieces, which > I have now retreated from. I was wrong about that - I wish this tool had > never come out (I think saying "it was already possible" is a bit > disingenuous, as so few people who would cheat had the knowledge it was > barely an issue), but it ain't going away now. > > One can't say it will cause no damage - the end of Schubi's is a *big* > hit in itself - but I'm considerably less gloomy than I was, and *if* a > VROC flag can be worked out, then that part at least should be OK. (Don't > say "join a league" - like many others, I don't keep a regular schedule.) > The big unknown is what happens to GPLRank - and AFAIK this is still > undecided. > > -- > David. (final [?] GPLRank handicap: -5.92) > The GPL Scrapyard - http://www.hillclimbfan.f2s.com > "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really" > - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh.

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>From Tim Wheatley's site, (www.legendscentral.com): > >"From Paul Thurston: Let me first state that I am not a cheat. Anyone >who knows me or has raced against me should know that. The sanctity of >online leagues and hotlap sites is important to me. People have to know >that they're playing the same game as everyone else. That was, perhaps >ironically the motivation behind me writing GEM. It is better for >everyone to have it that only a few.

I don't think Paul and Ricardo are cheaters, but I do think they are using some seriously flawed logic. It reminds me of an episode of "All in the Family", in which Archie Bunkers solution to airline hijackings, is to " give every passenger a handgun when their getting on the plane, that way the hijackers wouldn't dare try anything". So they have protected us from the cheaters, by giving us all the ability to cheat. So now nobodys cheating, because we're all doing it, it's just a different game now. Well there are consequences to it being a different game now, and that is the impact on those things that were developed on the game as it was before. The most glaring case being the impact on Schubi. His generous work has contributed greatly to the gpl community, and the *protection patch* slams the door in his face. This was so predictable, I can't believe it wasn't considered, so I can only assume they didn't care. > Ricardo and I are being made scapegoats. We >are just the whistleblowers. Whistleblowing would be simply making us aware of who was cheating, and then we could have contained it. What Paul and Ricardo did was hand out guns to all the passengers. -- Don Scurlock Vancouver,B.C. GPLRank -5.09 Come see how you rank, at the GPLRank site http://gplrank.ringlord.com/

> Whistleblowing would be simply making us aware of who was cheating, andthen we > could have contained it. What Paul and Ricardo did was hand out guns toall the > passengers. Amen.

On Mon, 11 Dec 2000 18:52:54 GMT, [email hidden] (Don Scurlock) wrote: [snip] >Whistleblowing would be simply making us aware of who was cheating, and then we >could have contained it. What Paul and Ricardo did was hand out guns to all the >passengers. Very well said. When I read the original rationale for why they said they released the utility, I was thinking about how many people were playing the "real" game vs. the number using the cheat they claimed was easy. They've taken a hex-editor type cheat (which I don't believe would be used by many people regardless of how simple they claim it is) and turned it into something any point-clicker can do. Using that as their justification doing it seems really weak to me. Tim

"Don Scurlock" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:90076E47Ddscurlock@news...

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> > >From Tim Wheatley's site, (www.legendscentral.com): > > > >"From Paul Thurston: Let me first state that I am not a cheat. Anyone > >who knows me or has raced against me should know that. The sanctity of > >online leagues and hotlap sites is important to me. People have to know > >that they're playing the same game as everyone else. That was, perhaps > >ironically the motivation behind me writing GEM. It is better for > >everyone to have it that only a few. > > I don't think Paul and Ricardo are cheaters, but I do think they are using

some > seriously flawed logic. The only flawed logic is from those who then use the patch (which is just great fun) to cheat in leagues etc. > http://gplrank.ringlord.com/

In article <90076E47Ddscurlock@news>, [email hidden] (Don Scurlock) wrote: <SNIP> > Whistleblowing would be simply making us aware of who was cheating, > and then we could have contained it. What Paul and Ricardo did was > hand out guns to all the passengers. So in other words, they did good! -- JB "My idea of gun control is when the second bullet goes through the same hole as the first bullet." "Kill 'em all, let God sort it out." Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

I love that...he asked for papy, alison, and martin if they could police it...they said they couldn't...so he releases it...I could have seen if they had found a way to police it, but he asks people if releasing a cheat could be detected and they say no, so he thinks it is ok. I also don't like the excuse that there are other cheats out there, so what is the harm in releasing one? JB "Rob Swindells" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> From Tim Wheatley's site, (www.legendscentral.com): > > "From Paul Thurston: Let me first state that I am not a cheat. Anyone > who knows me or has raced against me should know that. The sanctity of > online leagues and hotlap sites is important to me. People have to know > that they're playing the same game as everyone else. That was, perhaps > ironically the motivation behind me writing GEM. It is better for > everyone to have it that only a few. I have come in for a lot of > criticism for releasing it. That was expected. I could have released it > anonomously or under a pseudonym but I believe you should take > responsibility for your own actions. I wish that GPL was unhackable. > Unfortunately it is not. The information on the cars is in there. Deep > down I've always known it was possible to change the cars. Anyone with a > little programming knowledge did. I've seen posts saying that it was > impossible to cheat at GPL. Anyone thinking that was just kidding > themselves. I did not go looking for a way of changing the performance. > I was told how to swap engines a couple of weeks ago and my first > reaction was of shock and horror. My second reaction was that it would > be nice for the Cooper to finally have the power it's chassis deserved > and even up the field a bit - it would make for some good racing. Then I > started to think about the implications and it dawned on me that if I > knew about it then it was very unlikely that others hadn't known for > some time and were using it secretly. If someone had decompiled the exe > to the extent that they knew how to do this then they certainly knew a > lot more besides. Changing the engine could be a good thing but it had > to be policeable. We contacted Martin Granberg and Alison Hine, telling > them what we knew. We wanted Martin to add a feature to Replay Analyser > to detect if not the exact engine being used, at least that the replay > was dodgy. We sent him replays to work on. It is trivially simple to > swap engines. I told a trustable friend roughly what you had to do and > he did it with a hex editor with no further instructions. He is no > programmer. If he can do it then anyone can. We wanted Alison to put out > a patch for WinVROC to check the exe was clean before you could join a > race. She told us that she couldn't as she didn't have the source code > any more. Alison alerted Papyrus to the hack and we got an email from > Grant Reeve basically saying he'd speak to some others but that he > didn't think they would patch a two year old game. Martin after some > work came back and said that he didn't think it was possible to reliably > detect the engine from the replay because of GPL's prediction. I worked > to find a way I could detect it's use. The problem is that everything > seems to affect only the client. It was becoming apparent that either it > was impossible to stop this or people just wanted to hush it up. It was > also becoming very clear to me from what people were saying that people > have been cheating in various ways for a very long time, possibly since > version 1.0. I asked a group of online friends what they thought. There > were reservations from some but the vast majority thought that it should > be released. I made the decision to release. The issue had to be forced. > Now it's out, suddenly everyone is trying to find ways of policing it. > This is a very good thing. I want a sim where we know what the situation > is. It is very important that future sims are able to check what people > are using on the client. Is the exe a clean one? Is the track file the > same on all the machines? Ricardo and I are being made scapegoats. We > are just the whistleblowers. If us being villified and publicly > humiliated means: (a) the people who *really* know about GPL work > quickly to close this hole (b) future sims are made better so they are > policeable Then I will consider it worth it. Paul." > > -- > Rob Swindells > // > http://www.robswindells.com > http://www.f1core.com > // > "Question: Why [is GPL], [one] of the best driving games ever made, so > hard to find and under-f*****g-appreciated? It's damn near criminal..." > ~Frank > // > Uh... yeah, Brain, but where are we going to find rubber pants our size? > > >

>Whistleblowing would be simply making us aware of who was cheating, andthen >we >could have contained it. What Paul and Ricardo did was hand out guns to allthe >passengers. That letter should have been written 3-4 months ago and posted to R.A.S. and sent to the GPL Egroup mailing list. That way we could have done something before the barn door was opened! Now it just sounds like a lame excuse to justify what was done. It's closing the barn door after the horses have run away. ZZ

>One can't say it will cause no damage - the end of Schubi's is a *big* >hit in itself - but I'm considerably less gloomy than I was, and *if* a >VROC flag can be worked out, then that part at least should be OK. (Don't >say "join a league" - like many others, I don't keep a regular schedule.) >The big unknown is what happens to GPLRank - and AFAIK this is still >undecided. Apparently GPL Rank has a thirty day back up. So we have 30 days from when that thing was released to find a fix. Or we can call that screwed too. ZZ

On Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:32:49 GMT, "Wosco" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I love that...he asked for papy, alison, and martin if they could police >it...they said they couldn't...so he releases it...I could have seen if they >had found a way to police it, but he asks people if releasing a cheat could >be detected and they say no, so he thinks it is ok. I also don't like the >excuse that there are other cheats out there, so what is the harm in >releasing one? Particularly when ignorance is so soothing.... I can think of several ways to police it and half a dozen other cheats you can pull in GPL if you took the time with a disassembler and found the tables. It's an imperfect world and everybody has to deal with that. Me, personally, I'd rather know if there's a way to cheat in GPL, so I can recognize when someone is cheating. Regards, Brett C. Cammack brettDOTcammack@worldnetDOTattDOTnet (remove the DOTs from my return address to reply privately)

Mr. Scurlock, Well said Sir. A few day's ago I wrote: "I too have always wanted to drive the Lotus with the Eagle engine. I'm quite anxious to see if I can indeed go faster with this combo. Unfortunately, I can't help but feel a certain sadness that just about everything associated with GPL will henceforth have a cloud of suspicion associated with it. Schubi might even shut down with something like this and that would be a terrible loss." Today I wish that Lotus/Eagle combo thing had never crossed my mind. I feel like something valuable has been taken away from me. Rick "Don Scurlock" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:90076E47Ddscurlock@news...

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> > >From Tim Wheatley's site, (www.legendscentral.com): > > > >"From Paul Thurston: Let me first state that I am not a cheat. Anyone > >who knows me or has raced against me should know that. The sanctity of > >online leagues and hotlap sites is important to me. People have to know > >that they're playing the same game as everyone else. That was, perhaps > >ironically the motivation behind me writing GEM. It is better for > >everyone to have it that only a few. > > I don't think Paul and Ricardo are cheaters, but I do think they are using

some > seriously flawed logic. It reminds me of an episode of "All in theFamily", in > which Archie Bunkers solution to airline hijackings, is to " give every > passenger a handgun when their getting on the plane, that way thehijackers > wouldn't dare try anything". So they have protected us from the cheaters,by > giving us all the ability to cheat. So now nobodys cheating, because we'reall > doing it, it's just a different game now. Well there are consequences toit > being a different game now, and that is the impact on those things thatwere > developed on the game as it was before. The most glaring case being theimpact > on Schubi. His generous work has contributed greatly to the gpl community,and > the *protection patch* slams the door in his face. This was sopredictable, I > can't believe it wasn't considered, so I can only assume they didn't care. > > > Ricardo and I are being made scapegoats. We > >are just the whistleblowers. > > Whistleblowing would be simply making us aware of who was cheating, andthen we > could have contained it. What Paul and Ricardo did was hand out guns toall the

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> passengers. > > -- > Don Scurlock > Vancouver,B.C. > GPLRank -5.09 > > Come see how you rank, at the GPLRank site > http://gplrank.ringlord.com/

On Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:32:49 GMT, "Wosco" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I love that...he asked for papy, alison, and martin if they could police >it...they said they couldn't...so he releases it...I could have seen if they >had found a way to police it, but he asks people if releasing a cheat could >be detected and they say no, so he thinks it is ok. I also don't like the >excuse that there are other cheats out there, so what is the harm in >releasing one? Pull your head out of your arse and read it agian. Regards, Anthony Bulloch

Richard "ZZ" Busch wrote on 11 Dec 2000: >Apparently GPL Rank has a thirty day back up. So we have 30 days from when >that thing was released to find a fix. Or we can call that screwed too. Gives us till the end of the first week in Jan. -- David. (final [?] GPLRank handicap: -5.92) The GPL Scrapyard - http://www.hillclimbfan.f2s.com "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh.

[email hidden] (David Buttery) wrote in <[email hidden]>: <snip> >The big unknown is what happens to GPLRank - and AFAIK this is still >undecided. As I see it there's much less problems for GPLRank, because everybody who wanted to cheat could do it just by changing player.ini. And this is much easier than find a good chassis/engine combo and post fast lap in it. The only problem I see that now people who will use engine swapper will have to be cautous to avoid posting player.ini with engine swapped times. Even if there's no way to handle it programmatically, some set of recomendations could be created to minimize this risk. Also, adding to GPLRank an "open" class where times with modified cars will be accepted might be a good idea. Alex.

[email hidden] (Brett C. Cammack) wrote in <[email hidden]>: >Me, personally, I'd rather know if there's a way to cheat in GPL, so I >can recognize when someone is cheating. Absolutely, we all would. I think it would have been great if they had really "blown the whistle" by telling us that there is a method, and here's how to recognize when someones doing it, and possibly pointing out who's doing it. That's not at all what happened. Instead a program was unnecessarily written that allows everyone to do it, and that program is then presented(on Ricardo's site) as a fun new utility, its use encouraged, condoned, and defended. Big difference. -- Don Scurlock Vancouver,B.C. GPLRank -5.09 Come see how you rank, at the GPLRank site http://gplrank.ringlord.com/

On Mon, 11 Dec 2000 18:52:54 GMT, [email hidden] (Don Scurlock) wrote:

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>> Ricardo and I are being made scapegoats. We >>are just the whistleblowers. > >Whistleblowing would be simply making us aware of who was cheating, and then we >could have contained it. What Paul and Ricardo did was hand out guns to all the >passengers. >

Well then lock em up. Kill their families. Take 100 people from their town and shoot them, as an example to us all. Good god people, it's a GAME. A game simulation motor racing. A game simulating motor racing in 1967. Allow me to quote from Steven Smith's strategy guide: "The cars were supposed to be fueled with 100-octane "avgas"... but some exotic brews were tried on the QT. Cheating was harder to detect in those days... compliance was mainly on the "honor system". So there you go. It's nothing new, even the real guys (realism being so vital to the GPL community, at least the more hardcore) used to bend the rules. Personally I doubt I will use the utility, but come on - is it really the end of the world as we know it? DG

I suggested in another post that drivers should create another player, like for F2 and F3 and call it something like "Chris Bloom Swap" - of course use your own name and not mine:) - They could then use this player for their hybrid vehicles. This way it wouldn't affect their times made with the regular vehicles. Chris -- www.geocities.com/simbokza Remove _your_clothes before replying "Alex" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > [email hidden] (David Buttery) wrote in > <[email hidden]>: > <snip> > >The big unknown is what happens to GPLRank - and AFAIK this is still > >undecided. > > As I see it there's much less problems for GPLRank, because > everybody who wanted to cheat could do it just by changing > player.ini. And this is much easier than find a good chassis/engine > combo and post fast lap in it. The only problem I see that > now people who will use engine swapper will have to be cautous > to avoid posting player.ini with engine swapped times. > Even if there's no way to handle it programmatically, some set > of recomendations could be created to minimize this risk. > Also, adding to GPLRank an "open" class where times with modified > cars will be accepted might be a good idea. > > Alex.

LOL Anthony!! Maybe one day people will remember what it was like to drive the cars instead of sitting in a NG bitching about how thier world is about to end. I'd like everybody to take a few moments, switch of the computer and think back to those first few days spent on the game. I'm pretty sure that probably around 90-95 percent of us weren't thinking about World Records or ruling the GPL community with an iron fist (lung?). All that mattered was that these cars SEEMED to handle somewhat in the general vicinity of what most of us loosely consider being somewhere near the vague handling characteristics of the cars that were raced in the Formula One World Championship of 1967. Barely anyone driving the sim actually had any knowledge of what these cars actually FELT like to drive 28s at Monza, it's just that the illusion created was all enveloping. Remember the amazement at the cockpit moving forward and backward as if you were being thrust about by the G-forces? The never before seen suspension movement? I know it's a sad day when this happened, but in the end it is a game we have all enjoyed for 2 years now! It was discovered fairly on that cheating in GP2 was possible, and GP2 is still very popular today! Christ! If that can survive like that then I will be playing GPL in heaven with Senna, Villeneuve, Peterson, Clark, Fangio, Nuvolari, et al although I DO hope that is an awful long time away :O) People please! Can we get back to racing the single greatest game we have atm! I'm sure the leagues will be able to sort themselves out, and in VROC just be glad you could kick that Brabham-Honda's ASS!!!!!!!!! Just everybody get back in there! I have personally had a terrific example of the GPL community looking after each other today! I met a couple of Brisbane GPLers but I had no cash to get there, and only a tiny bit of fuel in the tank. I rang one of them to let him know I couldn't make it and he said he'd lend me money when I got there so I could get home. I HAD NEVER MET THE GUY FACE TO FACE IN MY LIFE!!!!! You don't get that in the real world! People, the GPL community is, for the most part, the greatest online community in the world. If you decide to leave it just because of this program then goodbye. Maybe we will race again. Most if these people we will never get the chance to meet face to face. Now that the edge has been taken off the competitive side we all need to remember the fun we had when we first saw that demo 2 years ago, and the friends everyone has made. Please, let's just have fun :O) Geordie p.s. I managed to get over to his house saving fuel partially by sitting in the draft of trucks and buses. Who said motor racing never helped the general community :O) "Anthony Bulloch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:32:49 GMT, "Wosco" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >I love that...he asked for papy, alison, and martin if they could police > >it...they said they couldn't...so he releases it...I could have seen ifthey > >had found a way to police it, but he asks people if releasing a cheatcould > >be detected and they say no, so he thinks it is ok. I also don't likethe

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> >excuse that there are other cheats out there, so what is the harm in > >releasing one? > > Pull your head out of your arse and read it agian. > > > Regards, > Anthony Bulloch

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Disgruntled Goat) writes: >So there you go. It's nothing new, even the real guys (realism being >so vital to the GPL community, at least the more hardcore) used to >bend the rules. Personally I doubt I will use the utility, but come on >- is it really the end of the world as we know it? > Here's the point, in my view. What combination is going to produce a car substantially faster than a Lotus? Who could drive a car which was substantially faster than a Lotus? If you could put 500 horsepower in a Cooper or Brabham, then maybe it would be a big difference, but the improvement is rather subtle. Since Schubi's site is replay based, and the engine is easily identifiable by rpm, what's the big deal? GPL Rank has no way to detect engine swaps, but I can't see that anyone would be able to rocket up in the rankings. You still have to drive the damned thing, no matter what you cobble together. Don McCorkle

We have already seen a post about a Brabham casually lapping Monza in the1:26 range. The Ace pilots if they chose to use the util, will begin shattering the world records.... "Woodie 83" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <[email hidden]>,[email hidden]

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> (Disgruntled Goat) writes: > > >So there you go. It's nothing new, even the real guys (realism being > >so vital to the GPL community, at least the more hardcore) used to > >bend the rules. Personally I doubt I will use the utility, but come on > >- is it really the end of the world as we know it? > > > > Here's the point, in my view. What combination is going to produce a car > substantially faster than a Lotus? Who could drive a car which was > substantially faster than a Lotus? If you could put 500 horsepower in a

Cooper > or Brabham, then maybe it would be a big difference, but the improvementis > rather subtle. Since Schubi's site is replay based, and the engine iseasily > identifiable by rpm, what's the big deal? GPL Rank has no way to detectengine > swaps, but I can't see that anyone would be able to rocket up in therankings. > You still have to drive the damned thing, no matter what you cobbletogether. > > > Don McCorkle >

"David Buttery" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > One can't say it will cause no damage - the end of Schubi's is a *big* > hit in itself - but I'm considerably less gloomy than I was, and *if* a > VROC flag can be worked out, then that part at least should be OK. (Don't > say "join a league" - like many others, I don't keep a regular schedule.) > The big unknown is what happens to GPLRank - and AFAIK this is still > undecided.

I just checked GPLRank and they've put out a poll re: whether to shut down GPLRank until the engine swap patch thing is resolved - if necessary, I can put my 3 votes toward this cause.. Pants

If the sim was released in '67 then wouldnt it be closer to '70 by now? <g> Charlie B "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8HqZ5.140156$[email hidden]... > We have already seen a post about a Brabham casually lapping Monza > in the1:26 range. The Ace pilots if they chose to use the util, willbegin

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> shattering the world records.... > "Woodie 83" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] > > (Disgruntled Goat) writes: > > > > >So there you go. It's nothing new, even the real guys (realism being > > >so vital to the GPL community, at least the more hardcore) used to > > >bend the rules. Personally I doubt I will use the utility, but come on > > >- is it really the end of the world as we know it? > > > > > > > Here's the point, in my view. What combination is going to produce a

car

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> > substantially faster than a Lotus? Who could drive a car which was > > substantially faster than a Lotus? If you could put 500 horsepower in a > Cooper > > or Brabham, then maybe it would be a big difference, but the improvement > is > > rather subtle. Since Schubi's site is replay based, and the engine is > easily > > identifiable by rpm, what's the big deal? GPL Rank has no way to detect > engine > > swaps, but I can't see that anyone would be able to rocket up in the > rankings. > > You still have to drive the damned thing, no matter what you cobble > together. > > > > > > Don McCorkle > > > >

On Tue, 12 Dec 2000 12:45:36 -0800, "Pants" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>"David Buttery" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> >> One can't say it will cause no damage - the end of Schubi's is a *big* >> hit in itself - but I'm considerably less gloomy than I was, and *if* a >> VROC flag can be worked out, then that part at least should be OK. (Don't >> say "join a league" - like many others, I don't keep a regular schedule.) >> The big unknown is what happens to GPLRank - and AFAIK this is still >> undecided. > >I just checked GPLRank and they've put out a poll re: whether to shut down >GPLRank until the engine swap patch thing is resolved - if necessary, I can >put my 3 votes toward this cause.. >

My feeling is that, except for the very fast drivers, most users of GPLRank simply want to improve their handicap. Doing that is a personal thing - you are competing with yourself and no one else, really. For me and the hundreds of others who are simply average, and will probably never be lapping monza in 1.26, swappah or no, all we want is to steadily improve our times. I don't care where i'm ranked, just that i'm getting better and can quantify that. For me, putting a Honda in the Brabham would not be in what I consider the spirit of things. Not that i'd call it 'cheating', i'd just feel better about it if the weight of the car changed when you put in different engines, but as it is I just wouldn't feel like i've REALLY achieved a great time. And that for me is the issue, as far as GPLRank goes - if you aren't comfortable using the swappah, then you won't, because you wouldn't get the satisfaction from lowering your times the "proper" way. Then again, if you just see it as an added enhancement, you won't see it that way. And that's fair enough too. DG

My thoughts exactly... well said. Jan. =--- Disgruntled Goat wrote... > <snip> > My feeling is that, except for the very fast drivers, most > users of GPLRank simply want to improve their handicap. > Doing that is a personal thing - you are competing with > yourself and no one else, really. <snip>

On Tue, 12 Dec 2000 21:39:25 +1000, "Geordie Pugh" <[email hidden]> wrote: > >Just everybody get back in there! I have personally had a terrific example >of the GPL community looking after each other today! I met a couple of >Brisbane GPLers but I had no cash to get there, and only a tiny bit of fuel >in the tank. I rang one of them to let him know I couldn't make it and he >said he'd lend me money when I got there so I could get home. Well my lawn needs mowing, or the damn car could do with wash! How about $20 AUS (inc GST) for the two? I'd hate to see a fellow RASer is so much financial trouble... Regards, Anthony Bulloch

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Disgruntled Goat) writes:

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>My feeling is that, except for the very fast drivers, most users of >GPLRank simply want to improve their handicap. Doing that is a >personal thing - you are competing with yourself and no one else, >really. For me and the hundreds of others who are simply average, and >will probably never be lapping monza in 1.26, swappah or no, all we >want is to steadily improve our times. I don't care where i'm ranked, >just that i'm getting better and can quantify that.

Actually, I'm sure there are 'mini-competitions' in GPLRank. There might be one or two guys you're 'fighting' with...(Jens...<g>) Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +40.48 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"Disgruntled Goat" <[email hidden]> wrote ... <snip>

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> My feeling is that, except for the very fast drivers, most users of > GPLRank simply want to improve their handicap. Doing that is a > personal thing - you are competing with yourself and no one else, > really. For me and the hundreds of others who are simply average, and > will probably never be lapping monza in 1.26, swappah or no, all we > want is to steadily improve our times. I don't care where i'm ranked, > just that i'm getting better and can quantify that. > > For me, putting a Honda in the Brabham would not be in what I consider > the spirit of things. Not that i'd call it 'cheating', i'd just feel > better about it if the weight of the car changed when you put in > different engines, but as it is I just wouldn't feel like i've REALLY > achieved a great time. And that for me is the issue, as far as GPLRank > goes - if you aren't comfortable using the swappah, then you won't, > because you wouldn't get the satisfaction from lowering your times the > "proper" way. Then again, if you just see it as an added enhancement, > you won't see it that way. And that's fair enough too.

Absolutely right. Cheat GPLRank and you're only cheating yourself. -- Tony Whitley GPLRank +12.8

On 13 Dec 2000 21:23:44 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote:

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>In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] >(Disgruntled Goat) writes: > >>My feeling is that, except for the very fast drivers, most users of >>GPLRank simply want to improve their handicap. Doing that is a >>personal thing - you are competing with yourself and no one else, >>really. For me and the hundreds of others who are simply average, and >>will probably never be lapping monza in 1.26, swappah or no, all we >>want is to steadily improve our times. I don't care where i'm ranked, >>just that i'm getting better and can quantify that. > >Actually, I'm sure there are 'mini-competitions' in GPLRank. There might be >one or two guys you're 'fighting' with...(Jens...<g>) >

hehe, not if you've seen my times. So far the only tracks I feel confident on are Monza, the Glen and to a slightly lesser extent Silverstone and Kyalami. Rouen is getting there, and i'm learning Mosport in SCGT where the cars are much simpler to drive. I figure once I know which way to turn and when, I can start putting in some good laps in an F1. Spa seems quite fun too - but long, hard to memorise. I've only done 3 recorded laps of the 'ring - it's so daunting. DG

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> For me, putting a Honda in the Brabham would not be in what I consider > the spirit of things. Not that i'd call it 'cheating', i'd just feel > better about it if the weight of the car changed when you put in > different engines, but as it is I just wouldn't feel like i've REALLY > achieved a great time. And that for me is the issue, as far as GPLRank > goes - if you aren't comfortable using the swappah, then you won't, > because you wouldn't get the satisfaction from lowering your times the > "proper" way. Then again, if you just see it as an added enhancement, > you won't see it that way. And that's fair enough too.

Precisely. I can't see myself using this utility at all. I want to drive the cars as they were intended to be, so when I do a good lap/race whatever, I know it was my achievement, my good driving, not just dropping the a different engine into the chassis. The one think upsetting me is people who may *claim* to be using the "proper" cars, when they're not. Thats what *I'd* call cheating. -- -Ace- (GPLRank -16.50) Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

But you could 'cheat' on that anyway :-) -- [email hidden] www.legendscentral.com "Richard "ZZ" Busch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:HedZ5.429949$[email hidden]... > >One can't say it will cause no damage - the end of Schubi's is a *big* > >hit in itself - but I'm considerably less gloomy than I was, and *if* a > >VROC flag can be worked out, then that part at least should be OK. (Don't > >say "join a league" - like many others, I don't keep a regular schedule.) > >The big unknown is what happens to GPLRank - and AFAIK this is still > >undecided. > > Apparently GPL Rank has a thirty day back up. So we have 30 days from when > that thing was released to find a fix. Or we can call that screwed too. > > ZZ > > >

<snip>

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> Allow me to quote from Steven Smith's > strategy guide: > > "The cars were supposed to be fueled with 100-octane "avgas"... but > some exotic brews were tried on the QT. Cheating was harder to detect > in those days... compliance was mainly on the "honor system". > > So there you go. It's nothing new, even the real guys (realism being > so vital to the GPL community, at least the more hardcore) used to > bend the rules. Personally I doubt I will use the utility, but come on > - is it really the end of the world as we know it? > > DG >

Yes, and then the next paragraph where Denny Hulme tells us about the notoriously stingy Jack Brabham: "Jack would creep into the lotus pit, and unbolt their Cosworths, before carting them out the back door, while Ron [Tauranac] distracted the Lotus mechanics. We only used the Repco engine at 3 races that year; Ford kept wondering where their blocks were disappearing to" -Ace- (GPLRank -16.50) Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

LOL Anthony!!!! I don't mow friggin lawns!!!! I show movies!! cya Geordie :O) "Anthony Bulloch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Tue, 12 Dec 2000 21:39:25 +1000, "Geordie Pugh" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >Just everybody get back in there! I have personally had a terrificexample > >of the GPL community looking after each other today! I met a couple of > >Brisbane GPLers but I had no cash to get there, and only a tiny bit offuel

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> >in the tank. I rang one of them to let him know I couldn't make it and he > >said he'd lend me money when I got there so I could get home. > > Well my lawn needs mowing, or the damn car could do with wash! How > about $20 AUS (inc GST) for the two? I'd hate to see a fellow RASer > is so much financial trouble... > > > Regards, > Anthony Bulloch

On Mon, 11 Dec 2000 07:59:46 +0000, Rob Swindells <[email hidden]> wrote: >We wanted Alison to put out >a patch for WinVROC to check the exe was clean before you could join a >race. She told us that she couldn't as she didn't have the source code >any more. I just want to clarify this. I have *never* had the source code for WinVROC. WinVROC was written by Larry Holbert, and only Larry has the source code. I would have been very glad to have Larry entrust me with the source code, to help secure VROC's future, but he has not done so. The same is true of VROCDB, which delivers the race list to WinVROC and JavaVROC. Larry wrote VROCDB to replace the original Perl daemons, which were being overloaded by race list requests from the many VROC users. I do have the source code for JavaVROC, which was written by my brother Nate Hine, but unless we also can modify WinVROC (and possibly VROCDB), changes to JavaVROC won't help us to deal with the Engine Swapper. Alison From: [email hidden] Reply-To: [email hidden] Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me. http://eaglewoman.maximumspeed.net

On Tue, 12 Dec 2000 12:57:51 +0200, "Chris Bloom" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>I suggested in another post that drivers should create another player, like >for F2 and F3 and call it something like "Chris Bloom Swap" - of course use >your own name and not mine:) - They could then use this player for their >hybrid vehicles. This way it wouldn't affect their times made with the >regular vehicles. > >Chris

This is a great idea, Chris! I haven't yet used the engine swapper because I didn't want to mess up my lap records done with my "legal" cars, and also I didn't want people to yell at me if I went online with a Cooper-Ferrari or whatever! I am going to create a driver called Alison Hine MOD, and use this if and when I try the engine swapper. I'll also be sure to use it online if I race online with a swapped engine. That way I will preserve my regular driver's lap times for GPLRank, and also when racing online, my fellow racers will know I'm using a swapped engine. If they ask, I'll tell them which one. I suggest that everyone racing online do this. It's very much like what we do now when using an F2 or F3 car (I already have "Alison Hine F2" and "Alison Hine F3" drivers). If you want to carry over your setups from your normal driver to your swap driver, simply copy the normal driver's setups folder into the swap driver folder after you create it. You'll probably be modifying the setups for the new engine/chassis combos anyway. We could also do it if we use F2, F3, or the rental car engine (the "2.0 liter street engine" in GEM). I suggest these suffixes: MOD - F1 with any swapped F1 engine M2 - F1 chassis with F2 engine M3 - F1 chassis with F3 engine MS - F1 chassis with street engine M21 - F2 chassis with any F1 engine M23 - F2 chassis with F3 engine etc... Alison From: [email hidden] Reply-To: [email hidden] Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me. http://eaglewoman.maximumspeed.net

[email hidden] (Alison Hine) writes:

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> On Tue, 12 Dec 2000 12:57:51 +0200, "Chris Bloom" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >I suggested in another post that drivers should create another player, like > >for F2 and F3 and call it something like "Chris Bloom Swap" - of course use > >your own name and not mine:) - They could then use this player for their > >hybrid vehicles. This way it wouldn't affect their times made with the > >regular vehicles. > > > >Chris > > This is a great idea, Chris! I haven't yet used the engine swapper > because I didn't want to mess up my lap records done with my "legal" > cars, and also I didn't want people to yell at me if I went online with > a Cooper-Ferrari or whatever! > > I am going to create a driver called Alison Hine MOD, and use this if > and when I try the engine swapper. > > I'll also be sure to use it online if I race online with a swapped > engine. That way I will preserve my regular driver's lap times for > GPLRank, and also when racing online, my fellow racers will know I'm > using a swapped engine. If they ask, I'll tell them which one. > > I suggest that everyone racing online do this. It's very much like what > we do now when using an F2 or F3 car (I already have "Alison Hine F2" > and "Alison Hine F3" drivers). If you want to carry over your setups > from your normal driver to your swap driver, simply copy the normal > driver's setups folder into the swap driver folder after you create it. > You'll probably be modifying the setups for the new engine/chassis > combos anyway. > > We could also do it if we use F2, F3, or the rental car engine (the "2.0 > liter street engine" in GEM). I suggest these suffixes: > > MOD - F1 with any swapped F1 engine > M2 - F1 chassis with F2 engine > M3 - F1 chassis with F3 engine > MS - F1 chassis with street engine > M21 - F2 chassis with any F1 engine > M23 - F2 chassis with F3 engine > > etc...

How about also adding a letter or two to identify which engine: Something like : Fe - Ferrari Ho - Honda Re - Repco We - Weslake BRM - BRM DFV - Cosworth Co - Cooper Might get a bit messy in the end, but it would remove a lot of confusion. -- Olav K. Malmin remove .spam when replying

If it hasn't happened already, I'm sure one (or two) car/engine combination will reign supreme in the new "MOD" class in much the same way the Lotus has ruled the hot lap charts up to now. I can see drivers mainly using the fastest combination and I think it will be very unlikely that we will see many times posted with a BRM-Repco! I think it will become obvious what engine is being used once it is determined what the fastest combinations are. Chris -- www.geocities.com/simbokza Remove _your_clothes before replying "Olav K. Malmin" <[email hidden]> wrote in > > etc... > > How about also adding a letter or two to identify which engine: > > Something like : > > Fe - Ferrari > Ho - Honda > Re - Repco > We - Weslake > BRM - BRM > DFV - Cosworth > Co - Cooper > > Might get a bit messy in the end, but it would remove a lot of confusion. > > -- > Olav K. Malmin > remove .spam when replying

> MOD - F1 with any swapped F1 engine > M2 - F1 chassis with F2 engine > M3 - F1 chassis with F3 engine > MS - F1 chassis with street engine > M21 - F2 chassis with any F1 engine > M23 - F2 chassis with F3 engine I'd love to drive a M23 Alison. James Hunt was a hero of mine when I was younger <G> MS

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> > etc... > > Alison > > From: [email hidden] > Reply-To: [email hidden] > Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me. > http://eaglewoman.maximumspeed.net