GPL: Why I don't like [you-know-what]

Had a couple of pickup races on VROC this evening. Good close racing, crashes kept to a reasonably low number, good quality connection. Fun all round. But... the record at Monza on my PC is now down to 1:26.58. And guess what? It was set by a Brabham. With a DFV in the back. I'm not going to name the person who drove this car - it would be unfair, as he was quite open about what he was doing, and didn't behave badly in any way. But that time gives the lie to those who said it would encourage closer racing. Very, very few people can do laps in that range - according to GPLRank, only six drivers have gone faster there. If it was 1:28.5 or something, it might be a bit different, but if 1:26s are going to become commonplace, the rest of us might as well give up - there's just no way I could get near that Brab-DFV, even absolutely on the top of my form. I don't see why there couldn't be "one-make" races for Brabhams, but I really think that the F1 Brab, like its lower-league counterparts, may have had its day in VROC mixed racing. Otherwise everyone will jump into a Brab - that sort of gap is too big to be made up by even very good drivers. 1:26s all over the place really will wreck the competition. -- David. (final [?] GPLRank handicap: -5.92) The GPL Scrapyard - http://www.hillclimbfan.f2s.com "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh.

But really, this is no different than the situation that has existed with the Lotus at most tracks since the game came out. Yes, it's ahistorical, but that's the only legitimate beef you can have with it. What you're complaining about here is exactly the same as me saying "I like to drive the Ferrari, and GPL is dead for me because I can't coax a Ferrari around the tracks as quickly as a good Lotus driver". As long as people are open about it, all the patch has done is changed the preferred hot setup at each track - that's it. Nothing pernicious about it. If you want to complain that it's ahistorical, go ahead, but the majority of tracks available today (and one track that shipped with the game) are ahistorical, and they haven't "ruined" anything. Rick

Well said Rick,Bravo Skell

Does this 'engine swaper' only 'map' the power onto the car or does it actually 'replace' the whole engine which would effect: -weight, -weight distribution, -center of gravity This it turn should effect the braking and balance of the car. See pressuming that you'd put the Honda engine into a Brabham then Brabham should stack on a fair few kilos, most of it weight now should be at the back and brakes should perform like crap. The Brabham with Honda engine should be a damn fast car in a straight line (small body and big engine) but it should be incredibelly evil handling (all weight at the back), break real bad (small brakes) and have low corner grip (tyres to thin for the new weight). Does it do all this? If not then this is just a 'hack' no different from upping the grip of a particular car by a factor. That's not right. If you're going to have engine-swaper then it should affect the rest of the car accordingly - not just map the power of one car onto another. Why not then map a 'hypothetical' power curve onto the car that has 2x the power of a Lotus and keep the rest same - nothing but a hack :-( regards, David Mocnay Rick Baumhauer wrote in message <9145p6$30le2$[email hidden]>...

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>But really, this is no different than the situation that has existed with >the Lotus at most tracks since the game came out. Yes, it's ahistorical, >but that's the only legitimate beef you can have with it. > >What you're complaining about here is exactly the same as me saying "I like >to drive the Ferrari, and GPL is dead for me because I can't coax a Ferrari >around the tracks as quickly as a good Lotus driver". > >As long as people are open about it, all the patch has done is changed the >preferred hot setup at each track - that's it. Nothing pernicious about

it. > >If you want to complain that it's ahistorical, go ahead, but the majorityof >tracks available today (and one track that shipped with the game) are >ahistorical, and they haven't "ruined" anything. > >Rick > >

"David Mocnay" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:P8jZ5.112$[email hidden]... Hi! > [...] - nothing but a hack :-( Unfortunately it's nothing but a f**king hack :(. Sorry to say that. Regards Crash

I disagree, this has the potential to pour new life into GPL.. Cheats will always cheat, honest drivers will remain honest, if it wasn't this patch, it would be another.. I personally am glad that it was released to the general sim racing population, as there are too many clicky little groups of self imposed importance that seem to think they are the controlling body of all that GPL stands for.. I think that a modified class of GPL on-line racing, using this patch has a lot of potential.. Why everyone has to get on the doom and gloom bandwagon is beyond me.. Sure, it has a down side too, but so does living... Cheers, Ron Joachim Blum <[email hidden]> wrote in article <914jsl$gos$07$[email hidden]>... "David Mocnay" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:P8jZ5.112$[email hidden]... Hi! > [...] - nothing but a hack :-( Unfortunately it's nothing but a f**king hack :(. Sorry to say that. Regards Crash ----------

So true as anything can be. If they can swap power curves, then they should be avaiable to invent new ones. We could make a jet-league with laptimes under 1 minute at Monza. Woldn't that be great? I dont think so!

Rick Baumhauer wrote on 12 Dec 2000: <snip> >What you're complaining about here is exactly the same as me saying "I >like to drive the Ferrari, and GPL is dead for me because I can't coax a >Ferrari around the tracks as quickly as a good Lotus driver".<snip> No, that's not the point I'm making at all. To expand: I am a reasonable, but not great, driver at Monza. My best is a mid-28 in the Lotus, and a low-mid-29 in the Ferrari. If I'm doing high 29s in my Ferrari, and someone is doing high 27s in their Lotus, I'm quite happy with that, because I know that with enough talent and practice I *could* get a high 27 myself. And if I changed to a Lotus, I could probably get a bit closer. In any case, they're only doing high 27s because they're a very good driver themselves, and have really worked at the game. But if they're doing 26s in their Brab-DFV, then the *only* way I can get near is to change to a "special" myself. In effect, if I want to win a race against these things, I *have* to "go modified" - that's my problem with it. It is actively discouraging people from using the "originals". >As long as people are open about it<snip> That's the problem - quite a few aren't, or they just forget, or they tell people before you join the race. If there's a 20-car field with four Coopers and three Brabhams in it, do you seriously expect me to waste half my qualifying time (which is very limited anyway on VROC) listening to my competitors'engines? Until and unless the engine is displayed on the timesheets (and not just "swap" but the exact make) then you're racing against Q-cars, which is completely unfair. One other point: Monza is popular for its very close racing. If one car is hugely faster than all the others, that goes, and makes the track that much less attractive. Sure, other circuits are more challenging technically, but you can't beat Monza for a fun blast to end the day - except that if you know it's impossible to stay in touch before you start, the fun is diminished. -- David. (final [?] GPLRank handicap: -5.92) The GPL Scrapyard - http://www.hillclimbfan.f2s.com "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh.

I agree, I had some good races last night in my Ferrari but with a best lap at Monza of 1:29.xx I was never going to trouble the leaders. I did have a great scrap with a BRM which was very well driven (until I outbreaked myself!) and I did 'get' a few Loti(?) too. I have more fun having a good honest battle for 5/6/7th than I would driving a 'Br-onda' into the distance (doubt I could even do that!). Cheers Cos (+25) :o( (but down from +50 in 1 week) :o)

Andre Warringa wrote on 12 Dec 2000: <snip> >Ping of 42/42/00<snip> Sheesh. Some of us are pleased with a ping of below 250... <snip> >VROC isn't about winning, it's about close racing.<snip> Fair point, with which I agree. >Most important for me is the league race which I'm in, and no way any >of these guys would use the swappah.<snip> I think in general, those who are in leagues are rather less negative about it than those, like me, who aren't. For us, VROC is the *only* place to race online - we don't, as you do, have the luxury of a "safe haven" from the swapper. I think that makes a difference. And, as I said above, I would have a lot less objection to it if there was some way of putting th *exact* engine up on the timesheets. If I saw "J.Bloggs (Cooper-BRM)" I'd be a lot happier than I am now, where you just see "Cooper" and have no way of telling what's in the back. I don't like racing Q-cars, y'see. -- David. (final [?] GPLRank handicap: -5.92) The GPL Scrapyard - http://www.hillclimbfan.f2s.com "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh.

Good to see common sense finally shining through Andre... The doom and gloom artists need to wake up and look around a bit to see that the world of GPL has not ended, but just got a whole lot better.. Cheers, Ron Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> wrote in article <[email hidden]>...

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> > David, yesterday I had my first online race since the release of the > 'swappah' as it's being called now on vroc. > Ping of 42/42/00, Zandy, and 20 drivers. Ideal circumstances. > I had a hell of a race, much close racing with 4 cars in a row for a > lap or 5 (untill I caused a crash :-( ). > Then I realized that I couldn't care less about some people using a > modified engine. VROC isn't about winning, it's about close racing. > Now if everybody would use modified Brabhams, it wouldn't be much fun > since I would have a hard time keeping up in my Lotus. But I think

the > majority of the GPL community thinks as we do and doesn't use a > modified engine online. > And to be honest, I wouldn't mind of someone who's slower thanaverage

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> would use a modifed engine to keep up with the rest, this will only > result in closer racing. And why would you use a modified Brabham if > you're allready fast, what's the fun of winning everytime, knowing > that the victory was mainly due to your faster engine? No fun at all, > so I don't think the faster guys will use modified engines. > Most important for me is the league race which I'm in, and no way any > of these guys would use the swappah. > My first reaction when it was released was something like 'Oh <beep> > <beep> <beeeeeep> <beep> <beepbeepbeep>' but after yesterday's vroc > experience my faith in online racing and the GPL community has been > restored more than ever :) > > Andre >

On 12 Dec 2000 01:20:54 GMT, [email hidden] (David Buttery) wrote: <snip> >I don't see why there couldn't be "one-make" races for Brabhams, but I >really think that the F1 Brab, like its lower-league counterparts, may have >had its day in VROC mixed racing. Otherwise everyone will jump into a Brab >- that sort of gap is too big to be made up by even very good drivers. >1:26s all over the place really will wreck the competition. David, yesterday I had my first online race since the release of the 'swappah' as it's being called now on vroc. Ping of 42/42/00, Zandy, and 20 drivers. Ideal circumstances. I had a hell of a race, much close racing with 4 cars in a row for a lap or 5 (untill I caused a crash :-( ). Then I realized that I couldn't care less about some people using a modified engine. VROC isn't about winning, it's about close racing. Now if everybody would use modified Brabhams, it wouldn't be much fun since I would have a hard time keeping up in my Lotus. But I think the majority of the GPL community thinks as we do and doesn't use a modified engine online. And to be honest, I wouldn't mind of someone who's slower than average would use a modifed engine to keep up with the rest, this will only result in closer racing. And why would you use a modified Brabham if you're allready fast, what's the fun of winning everytime, knowing that the victory was mainly due to your faster engine? No fun at all, so I don't think the faster guys will use modified engines. Most important for me is the league race which I'm in, and no way any of these guys would use the swappah. My first reaction when it was released was something like 'Oh <beep> <beep> <beeeeeep> <beep> <beepbeepbeep>' but after yesterday's vroc experience my faith in online racing and the GPL community has been restored more than ever :) Andre >-- >David. (final [?] GPLRank handicap: -5.92) >The GPL Scrapyard - http://www.hillclimbfan.f2s.com >"After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really" - >Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh.

David Buttery <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Had a couple of pickup races on VROC this evening. Good close racing, > crashes kept to a reasonably low number, good quality connection. Fun all > round. > > But... the record at Monza on my PC is now down to 1:26.58. And guesswhat?

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> It was set by a Brabham. With a DFV in the back. I'm not going to name the > person who drove this car - it would be unfair, as he was quite open about > what he was doing, and didn't behave badly in any way. > > But that time gives the lie to those who said it would encourage closer > racing. Very, very few people can do laps in that range - according to > GPLRank, only six drivers have gone faster there. If it was 1:28.5 or > something, it might be a bit different, but if 1:26s are going to become > commonplace, the rest of us might as well give up - there's just no way I > could get near that Brab-DFV, even absolutely on the top of my form. > > I don't see why there couldn't be "one-make" races for Brabhams, but I > really think that the F1 Brab, like its lower-league counterparts, may

have > had its day in VROC mixed racing. Otherwise everyone will jump into a Brab > - that sort of gap is too big to be made up by even very good drivers. > 1:26s all over the place really will wreck the competition. > I see your point but what I cannot understand is why the solution to this would have been to not ever release this util... how would that fix anything? That would mean that the inventor and a few "select" friends will have the ability to drive beyond the means of regular drivers, it was always there, isn't it better its now out there for everyone? It's obvious that it's not a good idea to use it on VROC but if there wasn't so much bitterness about he subject I see no reason why you couldn't use it, everyone else can. Some goes for power editors and maybe even edited physics like more efficient brakes. Now I know the 1.27 and 1.28's around Monza are good drivers with great setups but boy do they brake late... the type of late that would send me into the gravel. I'm not accusing anyone of cheating, I know there are great drivers and much better drivers than me with some brilliant setups but I just mean that it must be possible... Games don't go 3 years unhacked! Whether the editors are released or not, they must be hacked at some point IMO. I'm just grateful the author of this released it rather than getting it to make him 1st place on every hotlap comp. around.

So actually there is someone like me who doesn't globally care for being the fastest anyway. I am pleased to read that. I am sure that VROC keeps alive. The hotlap sites hopefiully reopen when some policy is available. Another idea : why not simply ignore folks using the 'swappah' ? Someone, who lost his car might wait for the cheater and kick him out next time he goes around :o) Come on, we're gonna find means against these, right ? J�rg Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag: [email hidden]... > On 12 Dec 2000 01:20:54 GMT, [email hidden] > (David Buttery) wrote: > > <snip> > >I don't see why there couldn't be "one-make" races for Brabhams, but I > >really think that the F1 Brab, like its lower-league counterparts, mayhave > >had its day in VROC mixed racing. Otherwise everyone will jump into aBrab

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> >- that sort of gap is too big to be made up by even very good drivers. > >1:26s all over the place really will wreck the competition. > > David, yesterday I had my first online race since the release of the > 'swappah' as it's being called now on vroc. > Ping of 42/42/00, Zandy, and 20 drivers. Ideal circumstances. > I had a hell of a race, much close racing with 4 cars in a row for a > lap or 5 (untill I caused a crash :-( ). > Then I realized that I couldn't care less about some people using a > modified engine. VROC isn't about winning, it's about close racing. > Now if everybody would use modified Brabhams, it wouldn't be much fun > since I would have a hard time keeping up in my Lotus. But I think the > majority of the GPL community thinks as we do and doesn't use a > modified engine online. > And to be honest, I wouldn't mind of someone who's slower than average > would use a modifed engine to keep up with the rest, this will only > result in closer racing. And why would you use a modified Brabham if > you're allready fast, what's the fun of winning everytime, knowing > that the victory was mainly due to your faster engine? No fun at all, > so I don't think the faster guys will use modified engines. > Most important for me is the league race which I'm in, and no way any > of these guys would use the swappah. > My first reaction when it was released was something like 'Oh <beep> > <beep> <beeeeeep> <beep> <beepbeepbeep>' but after yesterday's vroc > experience my faith in online racing and the GPL community has been > restored more than ever :) > > Andre > > > >-- > >David. (final [?] GPLRank handicap: -5.92) > >The GPL Scrapyard - http://www.hillclimbfan.f2s.com > >"After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll,

really" - > >Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh. >

I do hope there's a way of spotting fakers but in the meantime I guess we'll have to rely on the honour system. I don't see any problem with GPLRank as anyone can already submit fake lap times quite easily but I don't believe they do - you'd only be cheating yourself. I do know that I can't wait to try the new cars ! I haven't played GPL in a week but I certainly will tonight. Regards John ( 00JimWheatly GPLR - 2.5ish can't remember exactly since I went "under".... ) David Buttery <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Had a couple of pickup races on VROC this evening. Good close racing, > crashes kept to a reasonably low number, good quality connection. Fun all > round. > > But... the record at Monza on my PC is now down to 1:26.58. And guesswhat?

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> It was set by a Brabham. With a DFV in the back. I'm not going to name the > person who drove this car - it would be unfair, as he was quite open about > what he was doing, and didn't behave badly in any way. > > But that time gives the lie to those who said it would encourage closer > racing. Very, very few people can do laps in that range - according to > GPLRank, only six drivers have gone faster there. If it was 1:28.5 or > something, it might be a bit different, but if 1:26s are going to become > commonplace, the rest of us might as well give up - there's just no way I > could get near that Brab-DFV, even absolutely on the top of my form. > > I don't see why there couldn't be "one-make" races for Brabhams, but I > really think that the F1 Brab, like its lower-league counterparts, may

have

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> had its day in VROC mixed racing. Otherwise everyone will jump into a Brab > - that sort of gap is too big to be made up by even very good drivers. > 1:26s all over the place really will wreck the competition. > > -- > David. (final [?] GPLRank handicap: -5.92) > The GPL Scrapyard - http://www.hillclimbfan.f2s.com > "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll,

really" - > Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh.

GraDee wrote on 12 Dec 2000: >I see your point but what I cannot understand is why the solution to >this would have been to not ever release this util... how would that fix >anything? <snip> Actually, after thinking about it, I now agree with you on that. I'm now much more interested in the problem of detection - I can accept racing against a *declared* Cooper-BRM, but not a "secret" one. >Games don't go 3 years unhacked! Whether the editors are released or >not, they must be hacked at some point IMO. I'm just grateful the author >of this released it rather than getting it to make him 1st place on >every hotlap comp. around. The point here being that just because you know how to "cheat", doesn't mean you *have* to. Everyone knows steroids help sprinters - but that doesn't mean everyone should use them freely. -- David. (final [?] GPLRank handicap: -5.92) The GPL Scrapyard - http://www.hillclimbfan.f2s.com "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh.