VIEWS on GPL "CHEATS"

Hi, I tried to make this heading attract attention, but what this post is about is simply a suggestion for the GPL community to organize a Poll on what steps we as a community (all of us) not just a select few of self appointed Gods, think is the best way to deal with the Engine Changer utility and future utilities that alters the feeling of GPL's physics and or tracks/grip/banking etc... There has been good arguments from both sides of the debate, but why is it that a select few feel they can tell me, or the ones that are not against this patch, how i/we have to play on-line, what car we have to use, and what class of car we have to use. ? For the good of the GPL on-line community, i will go along with the majority vote, providing we can reach a majority quicker than the presidential election farce, BUT no self appointed, self oppiniated individual or small self appointed group is going to tell ME how i should play on-line.. This needs to go to a vote with ALL the regular on-line GPL users, and not just a select few who THINK they know what is right for us all. WinVROC is not just for a SELECT FEW who think they know what is right for us all as a on-line community, it IS the GPL community's life blood and i played a fair part in it's conception as well, so i feel i have a small right to stand up for what i believe should be discussed between us all, not just a clicky few.. There is talk about getting Larry Holbert to put a flag into WinVROC, to allow or disallow modified Marques, i think if that happens in that way, then it WILL keep ALL sides of the debate happy, BUT if the modified cars are simply disallowed to run on VROC full stop, no questions asked, and with no vote from us ALL, then there WILL be bloody hell to play, and not just from me... The "allow/disallow modifieds" flag in WinVROC would be a sensible solution, but it needs to be a GPL community decision, not a self appointed individual or small self appointed groups's decision.. I thought as a group, we were all beyond this childish display that had been going on with the release of the EngineChanger patch, but it seems that quite a few of you cannot trust your friends, mates, buddies, league racers etc that you have made on-line with GPL, to do the right thing and not cheat... I do trust EVERY GPL regular i race against to do the right thing, maybe i am too trusting, but i doubt that.. What is wrong with a host putting a "modifieds allowed" comment in his server info on WinVroc. That way, if you want to play with your modifieds, go join it, of not, no-one is forcing you to do either thing. In the GMSS, we have found a way to put the EngineChanger patch to positive use, and that is by using a F1 chassis with a F3 engine, to give us a "slow" F1 car, that handles like a real F3 car and not the fake trainers that Papy supplied GPL with. Don't laugh, go try it and you will see that these hybrids handle, grip and respond like a "real" small open wheel car should.. These cars also finally have the different sounds that the F1 cars and drivers have enjoyed since day one, so now we as F3 drivers can enjoy that too.. This is an excellent class of GPL cars and we have designated them the "FG" class... Another good side effect of this new "FG" class is that we can now run a Championship season in GPL using the ai, something the F3 community has wanted to do since GPL was released.. This same system can also be done for the F2 class of cars too now, by putting F2 engines into the F1 Marques.. Finally the F2 & F3 communitys can also have the benefits that the F1 community have enjoyed for so long.. So as you can see, there are positive aspects to emerge from any situation, not just doom and gloom. Does that make us "cheaters" too ?? Don't forget, that there is more to GPL than just F1.. The F2 & F3 communitys are a thriving and integral part of GPL on-line and VROC too, so some of you need to get of your collective "F1 Rules, everything esle sucks" butts and start working with the F2 & F3 groups as a single community... This patch is the best thing to ever happen for the F2 & F3 groups, so if you think we are going to lie down and dismiss it as a "Cheat", then think again.!! Also, not everyone is into Hotlap sites, GPLRank, F1, F2, F3 etc etc, so why should one group get preference over another ? BUT, there are ways to deal with this, if we use our heads... Firstly, GPLRank, is not about cheating, it is about seeing how well we do against each other.. It is simple to cheat in that if you want to, so why would anybody bother cheating when it is easier to just edit your Player file? With hotlap sites, submitted hot laps require a replay of the lap in question, so how hard is it to look at the replay of the lap in question and check the Tacho and terminal speed of the Marque doing the lap ? We all know what each Marque can achieve, both in top end and rev limits, so it isn't hard to detect cheating.. Time for all of us to look at all sides of the debate...!! Cheers, Ron Ayton Australia

Great post Ron ... my sentiments exactly. Shane Ron Ayton <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:01c06550$d8596460$ba4336cb@ronayton...

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> Hi, > I tried to make this heading attract attention, but what this post is > about is simply a suggestion for the GPL community to organize a Poll > on what steps we as a community (all of us) not just a select few of > self appointed Gods, think is the best way to deal with the Engine > Changer utility and future utilities that alters the feeling of GPL's > physics and or tracks/grip/banking etc... > > There has been good arguments from both sides of the debate, but why is > it that a select few feel they can tell me, or the ones that are not > against this patch, how i/we have to play on-line, what car we have to > use, and what class of car we have to use. ? > > For the good of the GPL on-line community, i will go along with the > majority vote, providing we can reach a majority quicker than the > presidential election farce, BUT no self appointed, self oppiniated > individual or small self appointed group is going to tell ME how i > should play on-line.. > This needs to go to a vote with ALL the regular on-line GPL users, and > not just a select few who THINK they know what is right for us all. > > WinVROC is not just for a SELECT FEW who think they know what is right > for us all as a on-line community, it IS the GPL community's life blood > and i played a fair part in it's conception as well, so i feel i have a > small right to stand up for what i believe should be discussed between > us all, not just a clicky few.. > > There is talk about getting Larry Holbert to put a flag into WinVROC, > to allow or disallow modified Marques, i think if that happens in that > way, then it WILL keep ALL sides of the debate happy, BUT if the > modified cars are simply disallowed to run on VROC full stop, no > questions asked, and with no vote from us ALL, then there WILL be > bloody hell to play, and not just from me... > The "allow/disallow modifieds" flag in WinVROC would be a sensible > solution, but it needs to be a GPL community decision, not a self > appointed individual or small self appointed groups's decision.. > > I thought as a group, we were all beyond this childish display that had > been going on with the release of the EngineChanger patch, but it seems > that quite a few of you cannot trust your friends, mates, buddies, > league racers etc that you have made on-line with GPL, to do the right > thing and not cheat... > I do trust EVERY GPL regular i race against to do the right thing, > maybe i am too trusting, but i doubt that.. > What is wrong with a host putting a "modifieds allowed" comment in his > server info on WinVroc. > That way, if you want to play with your modifieds, go join it, of not, > no-one is forcing you to do either thing. > > In the GMSS, we have found a way to put the EngineChanger patch to > positive use, and that is by using a F1 chassis with a F3 engine, to > give us a "slow" F1 car, that handles like a real F3 car and not the > fake trainers that Papy supplied GPL with. > Don't laugh, go try it and you will see that these hybrids handle, grip > and respond like a "real" small open wheel car should.. > These cars also finally have the different sounds that the F1 cars and > drivers have enjoyed since day one, so now we as F3 drivers can enjoy > that too.. > This is an excellent class of GPL cars and we have designated them the > "FG" class... > Another good side effect of this new "FG" class is that we can now run > a Championship season in GPL using the ai, something the F3 community > has wanted to do since GPL was released.. > > This same system can also be done for the F2 class of cars too now, by > putting F2 engines into the F1 Marques.. > Finally the F2 & F3 communitys can also have the benefits that the F1 > community have enjoyed for so long.. > So as you can see, there are positive aspects to emerge from any > situation, not just doom and gloom. > > Does that make us "cheaters" too ?? > > Don't forget, that there is more to GPL than just F1.. > The F2 & F3 communitys are a thriving and integral part of GPL on-line > and VROC too, so some of you need to get of your collective "F1 Rules, > everything esle sucks" butts and start working with the F2 & F3 groups > as a single community... > This patch is the best thing to ever happen for the F2 & F3 groups, so > if you think we are going to lie down and dismiss it as a "Cheat", then > think again.!! > > Also, not everyone is into Hotlap sites, GPLRank, F1, F2, F3 etc etc, > so why should one group get preference over another ? > > BUT, there are ways to deal with this, if we use our heads... > Firstly, GPLRank, is not about cheating, it is about seeing how well we > do against each other.. > It is simple to cheat in that if you want to, so why would anybody > bother cheating when it is easier to just edit your Player file? > > With hotlap sites, submitted hot laps require a replay of the lap in > question, so how hard is it to look at the replay of the lap in > question and check the Tacho and terminal speed of the Marque doing the > lap ? > We all know what each Marque can achieve, both in top end and rev > limits, so it isn't hard to detect cheating.. > > Time for all of us to look at all sides of the debate...!! > > Cheers, > Ron Ayton > Australia > >

[Loads of good, rational stuff clipped] > The "allow/disallow modifieds" flag in WinVROC would be a sensible > solution, but it needs to be a GPL community decision, not a self > appointed individual or small self appointed groups's decision.. I vote for the "allow/disallow modifieds" flag to be included. Further, I suggest "allow/disallow" selections for *ALL* possible combinations, not just modifieds in general, since cars like the Cooper- Cosworth or BRM-Honda aren't going to run away with any races since they have so much of a weight penalty. I for one will continue to use and enjoy the engine swapper patch both off-line (where I *WILL* try Brabham-Honda's) and on-line, announcing myself and my combination when I enter. I've created a "Modified Dirt" driver as well in case I ever <sarcasm mode> forget to yell LOUDLY that "I'M A CHEATER" <\sarcasm mode> when I enter a race. I won't be using any Brabham-Honda's or Lotus-BRM's online because, hey, what's the fun in running away and hiding in first place with nobody to race against? I drove a Cooper-Cosworth most of the evening last evening and can safely say that I *LOVE* the car. Nicely balanced, sweet handling, not too fast and not too slow. Truly a good result from the swapper IMHO. -Dirt- **Jesus saves sinners and redeems them for valuable cash prizes** Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

"Ron Ayton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:01c06550$d8596460$ba4336cb@ronayton...

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> Hi, > I tried to make this heading attract attention, but what this post is > about is simply a suggestion for the GPL community to organize a Poll > on what steps we as a community (all of us) not just a select few of > self appointed Gods, think is the best way to deal with the Engine > Changer utility and future utilities that alters the feeling of GPL's > physics and or tracks/grip/banking etc...

I'm of the opinion that GPL is a racing sim that was designed and programmed and, and, ect.. ect.. in or near 1998. There for it's just like going to a vintage race today. A lot of the cars are the same as they were back when, but, they have added safty measures, and new engine modifications. IE, a 948cc Sprite has a newly designed webber carb instead of the old webbers. Either way, I believe we are racing vintage cars, not racing as if we time warped to1967. So, my opinion is the current applications (engine swap, grip patch, ect..) are perfectly fine to use. Just as long as everyone that you're racing against knows that what you are using is widly availible for download. The things I wouldn't want to see is people using things that only a sellect few know about. I.E. knowing how to add 10,000 extra Hp to your Honda motor. In league racing, as these add-on applications come availible, the rules should reflect what is ok to use and what is not.

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> > In the GMSS, we have found a way to put the EngineChanger patch to > positive use, and that is by using a F1 chassis with a F3 engine, to > give us a "slow" F1 car, that handles like a real F3 car and not the > fake trainers that Papy supplied GPL with. > Don't laugh, go try it and you will see that these hybrids handle, grip > and respond like a "real" small open wheel car should.. > These cars also finally have the different sounds that the F1 cars and > drivers have enjoyed since day one, so now we as F3 drivers can enjoy > that too.. > This is an excellent class of GPL cars and we have designated them the > "FG" class...

DOH! Grant Reaves<sp> wanted to try the F3 car with the F1 engine (or the other way around). I didn't think about the differences in the tire grips. So I told him that "that would be useless, you would be driving the F1 anyhow". He mentioned the grip differences and I figured "hmm... ok, what ever". I'll have to give that a try.. the F1 chassis with an F3 engine just for the heck of it.

Ron Ayton wrote on 13 Dec 2000:

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>Hi, >I tried to make this heading attract attention, but what this post is >about is simply a suggestion for the GPL community to organize a Poll >on what steps we as a community (all of us) not just a select few of >self appointed Gods, think is the best way to deal with the Engine >Changer utility and future utilities that alters the feeling of GPL's >physics and or tracks/grip/banking etc...

<snip> If there is a way to show the exact type of car on the timesheets (ie "Cooper-BRM" rather than just "Cooper-modified", and if hosts have the power to allow/disallow "specials", then I'm happy to see them carry on in VROC. Especially if (as Chris Cavin says above) the host had the power to allow some specials and not others, though I appreciate that might be tricky to implement. I still don't like the thing, and wish it had never come out, but here it is, and it ain't going away. And a clear, open statement on the racelist of what is and isn't allowed would be quite adequate IMO. So, if VROC can come up with a sensible arrnagement, then by all means have "open" races. (Yes, I have changed my mind on this, and don't feel embarrassed about saying so.) -- David. (GPLRank handicap: -5.92) The GPL Scrapyard - http://www.hillclimbfan.f2s.com "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh.

grip patch? Tell me more... "Mike Barlow" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:AuTZ5.2716$[email hidden]...

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> > "Ron Ayton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:01c06550$d8596460$ba4336cb@ronayton... > > Hi, > > I tried to make this heading attract attention, but what this post is > > about is simply a suggestion for the GPL community to organize a Poll > > on what steps we as a community (all of us) not just a select few of > > self appointed Gods, think is the best way to deal with the Engine > > Changer utility and future utilities that alters the feeling of GPL's > > physics and or tracks/grip/banking etc... > > I'm of the opinion that GPL is a racing sim that was designed and > programmed and, and, ect.. ect.. in or near 1998. There for it's just

like > going to a vintage race today. A lot of the cars are the same as theywere > back when, but, they have added safty measures, and new engine > modifications. IE, a 948cc Sprite has a newly designed webber carbinstead

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> of the old webbers. Either way, I believe we are racing vintage cars, not > racing as if we time warped to1967. > > So, my opinion is the current applications (engine swap, grip patch, > ect..) are perfectly fine to use. Just as long as everyone that you're > racing against knows that what you are using is widly availible for > download. The things I wouldn't want to see is people using things that > only a sellect few know about. I.E. knowing how to add 10,000 extra Hp to > your Honda motor. > > In league racing, as these add-on applications come availible, the > rules should reflect what is ok to use and what is not. > > > > > > In the GMSS, we have found a way to put the EngineChanger patch to > > positive use, and that is by using a F1 chassis with a F3 engine, to > > give us a "slow" F1 car, that handles like a real F3 car and not the > > fake trainers that Papy supplied GPL with. > > Don't laugh, go try it and you will see that these hybrids handle, grip > > and respond like a "real" small open wheel car should.. > > These cars also finally have the different sounds that the F1 cars and > > drivers have enjoyed since day one, so now we as F3 drivers can enjoy > > that too.. > > This is an excellent class of GPL cars and we have designated them the > > "FG" class... > > DOH! Grant Reaves<sp> wanted to try the F3 car with the F1 engine (or > the other way around). I didn't think about the differences in the tire > grips. So I told him that "that would be useless, you would be driving the > F1 anyhow". He mentioned the grip differences and I figured "hmm... ok, > what ever". I'll have to give that a try.. the F1 chassis with an F3

engine > just for the heck of it. > > >

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (David Buttery) writes: >I still don't like the thing, and wish it had never come out, but here it >is, and it ain't going away. And a clear, open statement on the racelist >of what is and isn't allowed would be quite adequate IMO. Putting it on the racelist wouldn't matter. People simply don't pay attention. I've had F2 and F3 races, or even GP-length. People connect, then say "F3?!? I'm outta here..." Whereas if they'd read the comments, they'd KNOW what type of race they were joining...<sigh> And contrary to popular opinion, very FEW seem to like GP races... :( Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +40.48 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Seems to me that since there are more than one kind of cheat going on, there should be some way to properly detect and police them if you really want things to be on the up and up. But if these hacks have been going on since 1.0 as has been suggested, then "cheating" isn't even a new development, but rather an institutionalized practice that has been used by a comparatively small number of people for 2 years. Is that going to stop? probably not, especially if it's not detectable. I would much rather know about these cheats, and I would also like to know whether or not it's possible to detect them, and if not by some sort of program, then to be able to at least identify some of the handling characteristics that the cars may exhibit like unusually short braking distances etc. Hell, I used to consider riding below 3.5 in. a cheat....after switching to 2.5 at most tracks I've gone from a +4 GPLrank to a -22 in a little more than 2 months...and thats not even driving every day either. Anyhow, it's not the end of GPL....perhaps it's just the beginning of "Everything you always wanted to know about GPL but were afraid to ask" TJ

> And contrary to popular opinion, very FEW seem to like GP races... :( Can you blame them? Sitting strapped to your monitor for 2 full hours keeping total focus with your contacts drying out from not blinking (if you blink you die) and retiring on lap 23 with a blown engine turns most people off to GPs. rms (running a 3/4 GP at silverstone today) [email hidden]

I'm OK with the "swappah", as long as its use/non-use is specified at the beginning of a race or on the server. Detectable by VROC would be better. Once the paramaters for the race are laid out, I almost don't care if someone's "cheating". Call me Pollyanna, but for me, GPL has always had an "honorable" component where the cheaters aren't really GPL drivers anyway. As has been said, look at GPLRank. One could easily ease their way up the rank without anyone noticing, but where's the joy in that? The joy is in the driving, the improvement, the accomplishment, be it F1, F2, F3, mod, or any combination thereof A modified category, or several of them, is fine with me and sounds like a lot of fun, and in the end, its all about fun. The F2-F3 engines in the F1 chassies (sp?) sounds like a -GREAT- idea and I'll be trying that as soon as I get home. Now -there's- a reason (for me, anyway) to actually install the patch. J. P. Hovercraft Ron Ayton wrote:

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> Hi, > I tried to make this heading attract attention, but what this post is > about is simply a suggestion for the GPL community to organize a Poll > on what steps we as a community (all of us) not just a select few of > self appointed Gods, think is the best way to deal with the Engine > Changer utility and future utilities that alters the feeling of GPL's > physics and or tracks/grip/banking etc... > > There has been good arguments from both sides of the debate, but why is > it that a select few feel they can tell me, or the ones that are not > against this patch, how i/we have to play on-line, what car we have to > use, and what class of car we have to use. ? > > For the good of the GPL on-line community, i will go along with the > majority vote, providing we can reach a majority quicker than the > presidential election farce, BUT no self appointed, self oppiniated > individual or small self appointed group is going to tell ME how i > should play on-line.. > This needs to go to a vote with ALL the regular on-line GPL users, and > not just a select few who THINK they know what is right for us all. > > WinVROC is not just for a SELECT FEW who think they know what is right > for us all as a on-line community, it IS the GPL community's life blood > and i played a fair part in it's conception as well, so i feel i have a > small right to stand up for what i believe should be discussed between > us all, not just a clicky few.. > > There is talk about getting Larry Holbert to put a flag into WinVROC, > to allow or disallow modified Marques, i think if that happens in that > way, then it WILL keep ALL sides of the debate happy, BUT if the > modified cars are simply disallowed to run on VROC full stop, no > questions asked, and with no vote from us ALL, then there WILL be > bloody hell to play, and not just from me... > The "allow/disallow modifieds" flag in WinVROC would be a sensible > solution, but it needs to be a GPL community decision, not a self > appointed individual or small self appointed groups's decision.. > > I thought as a group, we were all beyond this childish display that had > been going on with the release of the EngineChanger patch, but it seems > that quite a few of you cannot trust your friends, mates, buddies, > league racers etc that you have made on-line with GPL, to do the right > thing and not cheat... > I do trust EVERY GPL regular i race against to do the right thing, > maybe i am too trusting, but i doubt that.. > What is wrong with a host putting a "modifieds allowed" comment in his > server info on WinVroc. > That way, if you want to play with your modifieds, go join it, of not, > no-one is forcing you to do either thing. > > In the GMSS, we have found a way to put the EngineChanger patch to > positive use, and that is by using a F1 chassis with a F3 engine, to > give us a "slow" F1 car, that handles like a real F3 car and not the > fake trainers that Papy supplied GPL with. > Don't laugh, go try it and you will see that these hybrids handle, grip > and respond like a "real" small open wheel car should.. > These cars also finally have the different sounds that the F1 cars and > drivers have enjoyed since day one, so now we as F3 drivers can enjoy > that too.. > This is an excellent class of GPL cars and we have designated them the > "FG" class... > Another good side effect of this new "FG" class is that we can now run > a Championship season in GPL using the ai, something the F3 community > has wanted to do since GPL was released.. > > This same system can also be done for the F2 class of cars too now, by > putting F2 engines into the F1 Marques.. > Finally the F2 & F3 communitys can also have the benefits that the F1 > community have enjoyed for so long.. > So as you can see, there are positive aspects to emerge from any > situation, not just doom and gloom. > > Does that make us "cheaters" too ?? > > Don't forget, that there is more to GPL than just F1.. > The F2 & F3 communitys are a thriving and integral part of GPL on-line > and VROC too, so some of you need to get of your collective "F1 Rules, > everything esle sucks" butts and start working with the F2 & F3 groups > as a single community... > This patch is the best thing to ever happen for the F2 & F3 groups, so > if you think we are going to lie down and dismiss it as a "Cheat", then > think again.!! > > Also, not everyone is into Hotlap sites, GPLRank, F1, F2, F3 etc etc, > so why should one group get preference over another ? > > BUT, there are ways to deal with this, if we use our heads... > Firstly, GPLRank, is not about cheating, it is about seeing how well we > do against each other.. > It is simple to cheat in that if you want to, so why would anybody > bother cheating when it is easier to just edit your Player file? > > With hotlap sites, submitted hot laps require a replay of the lap in > question, so how hard is it to look at the replay of the lap in > question and check the Tacho and terminal speed of the Marque doing the > lap ? > We all know what each Marque can achieve, both in top end and rev > limits, so it isn't hard to detect cheating.. > > Time for all of us to look at all sides of the debate...!! > > Cheers, > Ron Ayton > Australia > >

That was one of the first things I thought of, but my idea was to use F2 engines with F1 chassis (and grip). Should make for some great, close racing, without having to endure the incredibly slow F3's. ;-) But - I can't get GPL to load a race or training session with F2 or F3 engines in an F1 chassis. It works fine with F1 engines in the lower classes, which is bothersome for fairness purposes, but not the other way 'round. Anyone else had this happen? TIA, Steve B. "Ron Ayton" <[email hidden]> wrote... <snip> In the GMSS, we have found a way to put the EngineChanger patch to positive use, and that is by using a F1 chassis with a F3 engine to give us a "slow" F1 car, that handles like a real F3 car and not the fake trainers that Papy supplied GPL with. <snip>

"Ron Ayton" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Hi, Hi. VROC is nothing more then a chatroom, and the possibility to join races hosted by different people. VROC has no say in what's allowed or not allowed on the servers. That's up to the people owning the servers. I think people should only join races with a modified car if the server has allowed it in the comment. If people join races without such a comment with a modified car, then they're cheating, IMO. Of course, it would be great to have a method/flag in VROC to help hosts with this problem, i.e. block modified cars from races with original cars. Remco

Well you don't say what the poll is exactly, but the battle for acceptance is already over. There will be no 'splitting the GPL community' or two separate versions of VROC, and the patch will be very popular in F2/F3. I haven't used it myself yet as it just introduces another variable that I don't want to deal with now. rms [email hidden]

In article <1n6_5.7999$[email hidden]>, "Roger Squires" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>> And contrary to popular opinion, very FEW seem to like GP races... :( > > Can you blame them? Sitting strapped to your monitor for 2 full hours >keeping total focus with your contacts drying out from not blinking (if you >blink you die) and retiring on lap 23 with a blown engine turns most people >off to GPs. > >rms (running a 3/4 GP at silverstone today) >[email hidden]

In other words, it's too REAL. :) How many people actually GET to lap 23 in a GP race?<g> I remember people wanting GP races before, so I tried setting up a few... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +40.48 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"Ron Ayton" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I tried to make this heading attract attention, but what this post is >about is simply a suggestion for the GPL community to organize a Poll >on what steps we as a community (all of us) not just a select few of >self appointed Gods, think is the best way to deal with the Engine >Changer utility and future utilities that alters the feeling of GPL's >physics and or tracks/grip/banking etc... I wanted to install & test GME before contributing to this debate. After a few days trying a variety of FD cars at Zandy, I ve come to a few conclusions that may or may not change any minds but, I feel Ron's post deserves addressing. >There has been good arguments from both sides of the debate, but why is >it that a select few feel they can tell me, or the ones that are not >against this patch, how i/we have to play on-line, what car we have to >use, and what class of car we have to use. ? Here's 2 reasons I can think of: 1. The internet in general, and usenet specifically, are handy forums for ill-conceived, knee-jerk reactions to just about any subject. Racing sims, politics, religion, you name it. Given a easily accesible arena, some people prefer to proclaim "the sky is falling" simply because they *can*. 2. In regards to GME, the dire warnings of "the death of GPL" reflect a complete lack of imagination. Cheating is the first and apparently only conclusion some can reach. Unlike the GMSS, who applied not only imagination but rationality to the issue ( FG & FD cars ), many are unable to envision something like that. Instead, they express a "tunnel-vision" reaction that limits the debate to cheating, the end of VROC & the death of GPL. Phooey. [...]

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>There is talk about getting Larry Holbert to put a flag into WinVROC, >to allow or disallow modified Marques, i think if that happens in that >way, then it WILL keep ALL sides of the debate happy, BUT if the >modified cars are simply disallowed to run on VROC full stop, no >questions asked, and with no vote from us ALL, then there WILL be >bloody hell to play, and not just from me... >The "allow/disallow modifieds" flag in WinVROC would be a sensible >solution, but it needs to be a GPL community decision, not a self >appointed individual or small self appointed groups's decision..

It's sensible & hopefully, will be easy to implement. Further, as more of the respected GPL community speak out, I believe the alarmists will be subdued. Which is not to say one can't object to GME in a rational way. Many have and that's fine. No one's being forced to drive hybrids. If one prefers standard F2's or F3's, great. But, to label FD's or FG's as cheats is bogus. An F1 chassis with an F2/F3 engine racing against the same is *not* cheating. It's simply a new & invigorating aspect of GPL. Of course, there's bound to be people who attempt to cheat by sticking an F1 engine into an F2/F3 chassis and racing against standard cars. So what? These folks are cretins. They've been present in VROC for quite some time. Driving standard cars like fools, being rude, etc. They'll always be a small percentage of people like this *everywhere*. To conclude that the majority of online racers & races will be reduced to this level is absurd. Again, a total lack of imagination.

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>I thought as a group, we were all beyond this childish display that had >been going on with the release of the EngineChanger patch, but it seems >that quite a few of you cannot trust your friends, mates, buddies, >league racers etc that you have made on-line with GPL, to do the right >thing and not cheat... >I do trust EVERY GPL regular i race against to do the right thing, >maybe i am too trusting, but i doubt that..

Call me naive or too trusting as well. But, in the F2 leagues I race in, we've been playing with GME for about a week and the discourse has been adult, trusting and *fun*. One administrator has stated that we'll probably continue running standard F2's for points paying races ( fine with me ) but we're also going to start running some FD races as well. Does this mean we've all become a mob of rabid "cheaters"? Hardly. It just means we're having a *blast* driving the hybrids. Period. >What is wrong with a host putting a "modifieds allowed" comment in his >server info on WinVroc. Nothing. >That way, if you want to play with your modifieds, go join it, of not, >no-one is forcing you to do either thing. To easy, Ron. If we do that, the " OH, THE HUMANITY " types won't have anything to shout about.

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>In the GMSS, we have found a way to put the EngineChanger patch to >positive use, and that is by using a F1 chassis with a F3 engine, to >give us a "slow" F1 car, that handles like a real F3 car and not the >fake trainers that Papy supplied GPL with. >Don't laugh, go try it and you will see that these hybrids handle, grip >and respond like a "real" small open wheel car should..

I *am* laughing. The FD cars are putting a huge grin on my mug. As for fake trainers, you mean we've been driving..er.."bogus" cars all this time?...:-) >These cars also finally have the different sounds that the F1 cars and >drivers have enjoyed since day one, so now we as F3 drivers can enjoy >that too.. Indeed. I've yet to race a full field of FD's online but racing against the AI offline & hearing all the different engines howl is super! >Another good side effect of this new "FG" class is that we can now run >a Championship season in GPL using the ai, something the F3 community >has wanted to do since GPL was released.. There you go again...imagination & rationality = fun...:-)

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>This same system can also be done for the F2 class of cars too now, by >putting F2 engines into the F1 Marques.. >Finally the F2 & F3 communitys can also have the benefits that the F1 >community have enjoyed for so long.. >So as you can see, there are positive aspects to emerge from any >situation, not just doom and gloom. >Does that make us "cheaters" too ??

I suppose in some minds, GME will always be viewed as cheating. So be it. While the "doom & gloom" brigade moan & whine and perhaps stop racing online, the rest of us can enjoy an entirely new & incredibly interesting aspect of GPL. >Don't forget, that there is more to GPL than just F1.. >The F2 & F3 communitys are a thriving and integral part of GPL on-line >and VROC too, so some of you need to get of your collective "F1 Rules, >everything esle sucks" butts and start working with the F2 & F3 groups >as a single community... I doubt if the "F1 rules, everything else sucks" troops will ever change there minds. Fine. They appear to be unaware that some of the greats of Grand Prix racing drove a variety of cars including the smaller formulas. The current question might be whether or not the hybrids more closely approximate the smaller cars then the Trainers. I don't know. But, if the Trainers are Papy's creations & the F1 chassis are closer to the real thing, why not drive them. One can still drive the Trainers. Seems to me we now have more options. A positive thing. For those that view GME as negative, all I can suggest is taking a few laps in a hybrid. If you come away growling and frowning and feeling "unclean", so be it. >This patch is the best thing to ever happen for the F2 & F3 groups, so >if you think we are going to lie down and dismiss it as a "Cheat", then >think again.!! And drive the cars!

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>Also, not everyone is into Hotlap sites, GPLRank, F1, F2, F3 etc etc, >so why should one group get preference over another ? >BUT, there are ways to deal with this, if we use our heads... >Firstly, GPLRank, is not about cheating, it is about seeing how well we >do against each other.. >It is simple to cheat in that if you want to, so why would anybody >bother cheating when it is easier to just edit your Player file?

It is unfortunate that hotlap sites are closing. But, perhaps as apps like Replay Analyzer become more adept at detecting hybrids, old sites or perhaps new sites will embrace hybrids.

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>With hotlap sites, submitted hot laps require a replay of the lap in >question, so how hard is it to look at the replay of the lap in >question and check the Tacho and terminal speed of the Marque doing the >lap ? >We all know what each Marque can achieve, both in top end and rev >limits, so it isn't hard to detect cheating..

Perhaps that's too much of a hassle right now. I thoroughly appreciate the hotlap sites & understand if they choose to step back until the initial flap is over concerning GME. But, I would hope that eventually, the hybrids will just be another class of car at hotlap sites. And, it'd certainly be fun, as well as humbling, to be able to watch the aliens set PB's that the rest of us can't ever hope to equal...:-) >Time for all of us to look at all sides of the debate...!! Amen. -- " Why bother..." - R. Crumb -

I think it's a bit sad that so many have an aversion to full GP races. After all, how many people used to run full length races in GP2 in the leagues, or for that matter are happy to run in the draft all day in the NASCAR sims. A full GP in GPL is surely the highest challenge in sim racing but so few people seem to want to climb that particular hill :-( MS EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <1n6_5.7999$[email hidden]>, "Roger Squires" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >> And contrary to popular opinion, very FEW seem to like GP races... :( > > > > Can you blame them? Sitting strapped to your monitor for 2 fullhours > >keeping total focus with your contacts drying out from not blinking (ifyou > >blink you die) and retiring on lap 23 with a blown engine turns mostpeople

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> >off to GPs. > > > >rms (running a 3/4 GP at silverstone today) > >[email hidden] > > In other words, it's too REAL. :) > How many people actually GET to lap 23 in a GP race?<g> I remember people > wanting GP races before, so I tried setting up a few... > > Eldred > -- > Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPL hcp. +40.48 > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats

you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

> I think it's a bit sad that so many have an aversion to full GP > races. After all, how many people used to run full length races > in GP2 in the leagues, or for that matter are happy to run in > the draft all day in the NASCAR sims. A full GP in GPL is surely > the highest challenge in sim racing but so few people seem to > want to climb that particular hill :-( I, for one, don't have the consistency to keep from a) blowing up my engine, or b) tagging the wall and bending my suspension. Plus, my butt goes to sleep after about 1/2 hour. :) -Dirt- 2000 White/Red CBR929RR **Jesus saves sinners and redeems them for valuable cash prizes** Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

> In other words, it's too REAL. :) > How many people actually GET to lap 23 in a GP race?<g> I finished a 60lap 3/4 GP at silverstone today, it wasn't as nearly as nerve-wracking as my previous attempt at rouen. The main thing for me was letting off the throttle before shifting and putting in a few extra laps of fuel to prevent running out on lap 59 :) rms [email hidden]

In article <wM0%5.10975$[email hidden]>, "Mark Seery" <[email hidden]> writes: >I think it's a bit sad that so many have an aversion to full GP races. After >all, how many people used to run full length races in GP2 in the leagues, or >for that matter are happy to run in the draft all day in the NASCAR sims. A >full GP in GPL is surely the highest challenge in sim racing but so few >people seem to want to climb that particular hill :-( Well, if there's enough interest, and my servers are still available, I'll run one on Dec. 26th. Maybe around 11am EST? Anybody game? Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL F1 hcp. +39.11/F3 hcp. +373.73 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Sounds good to me Eldred MS EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <wM0%5.10975$[email hidden]>, "MarkSeery" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >I think it's a bit sad that so many have an aversion to full GP races.After > >all, how many people used to run full length races in GP2 in the leagues,or > >for that matter are happy to run in the draft all day in the NASCAR sims.A > >full GP in GPL is surely the highest challenge in sim racing but so few > >people seem to want to climb that particular hill :-( > > Well, if there's enough interest, and my servers are still available, I'llrun

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> one on Dec. 26th. Maybe around 11am EST? Anybody game? > > Eldred > -- > Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPL F1 hcp. +39.11/F3 hcp. +373.73 > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats

you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:23:00 -0000, "Mark Seery" <[email hidden]> wrote: >> >full GP in GPL is surely the highest challenge in sim racing but so few >> >people seem to want to climb that particular hill :-( >> >> Well, if there's enough interest, and my servers are still available, I'll >run >> one on Dec. 26th. Maybe around 11am EST? Anybody game? Count me in! Which track... the Ring? Andre

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>> >> Eldred >> -- >> Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 >> Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett >> GPL F1 hcp. +39.11/F3 hcp. +373.73 >> >> Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats >you >> with experience... >> Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > >

> I finished a 60lap 3/4 GP at silverstone today, it wasn't as nearly as >nerve-wracking as my previous attempt at rouen. The main thing for me was >letting off the throttle before shifting and putting in a few extra laps of >fuel to prevent running out on lap 59 :) As part of my 50% distance championship against the AI, I did a 40-lapper at Silverstone yesterday. I put in 44 laps worth of fuel and my engine started spluttering literally as I crossed the line to win :-) -- Cheers! Graeme Nash

In article <ljb%5.11626$[email hidden]>, "Roger Squires" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>> In other words, it's too REAL. :) >> How many people actually GET to lap 23 in a GP race?<g> > > I finished a 60lap 3/4 GP at silverstone today, it wasn't as nearly as >nerve-wracking as my previous attempt at rouen. The main thing for me was >letting off the throttle before shifting and putting in a few extra laps of >fuel to prevent running out on lap 59 :) >

I ran a GP season a couple of times. Last time, I kept crashing out, for some reason. I guess my mind just wasn't on driving then... Maybe I'll try it again during the holiday break. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL F1 hcp. +39.11/F3 hcp. +373.73 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

>Well, if there's enough interest, and my servers are still available, I'll run >one on Dec. 26th. Maybe around 11am EST? Anybody game? Yes :-) -- Cheers! Graeme Nash

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Andre Warringa) writes: >>> Well, if there's enough interest, and my servers are still available, I'll >>run >>> one on Dec. 26th. Maybe around 11am EST? Anybody game? > >Count me in! Which track... the Ring? I dunno - the Ring might scare everybody off... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL F1 hcp. +39.11/F3 hcp. +373.73 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

>Anybody game? The likelyhood of my finishing an online GP without disco'ing or the server dropping my laps is pretty slim, so I'll pass. Sounds fun tho! rms [email hidden]

In article <[email hidden]>, Graeme Nash <[email hidden]> writes: >>Well, if there's enough interest, and my servers are still available, I'll >run >>one on Dec. 26th. Maybe around 11am EST? Anybody game? > >Yes :-) Ok, that's FOUR - Me, you, Mark Seery, and Andre. Anybody taking bets on how many times you 3 will lap me...?<g> Eldred - looking for some more 'velocity-challenged' drivers... :) -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL F1 hcp. +39.11/F3 hcp. +373.73 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EldredP wrote: > Well, if there's enough interest, and my servers are still available, I'll run > one on Dec. 26th. Maybe around 11am EST? Anybody game? I'll give it a go, every race needs some slowpokes.

Depending on the timeframe I'm in too. Middle of the pack needs covering too. ;-) Jan. =--- EldredP wrote...

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> >> <snip> > Ok, that's FOUR - Me, you, Mark Seery, and Andre. > Anybody taking bets on how many times you 3 will > lap me...?<g> > > Eldred - looking for some more 'velocity-challenged' drivers... :) > > -- > Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPL F1 hcp. +39.11/F3 hcp. +373.73 > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats

you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Depending on the timeframe I'm in too. Middle of the pack needs covering >too. ;-) > >Jan. >=--- >EldredP wrote... >> >> <snip> >> Ok, that's FOUR - Me, you, Mark Seery, and Andre. >> Anybody taking bets on how many times you 3 will >> lap me...?<g> >> >> Eldred - looking for some more 'velocity-challenged' drivers... :)

Dec 26th, 11am EST. I have *no* idea what time that would be in Belgium...<g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL F1 hcp. +39.11/F3 hcp. +373.73 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

my friends and family all refer to me as velocity challenged. i would love to join but need to know what track so i can practice until the 26th lancemanyun Jan Verschueren wrote:

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> Depending on the timeframe I'm in too. Middle of the pack needs covering > too. ;-) > > Jan. > =--- > EldredP wrote... > > >> <snip> > > Ok, that's FOUR - Me, you, Mark Seery, and Andre. > > Anybody taking bets on how many times you 3 will > > lap me...?<g> > > > > Eldred - looking for some more 'velocity-challenged' drivers... :) > > > > -- > > Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > GPL F1 hcp. +39.11/F3 hcp. +373.73 > > > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats > you > > with experience... > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

5pm... that might cause conflicts with dinner, but I don't think I'll be really hungry by then. <g> Count me in. Jan. =--- EldredP wrote...

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> <snip> > Dec 26th, 11am EST. I have *no* idea what time that would > be in Belgium...<g> > > Eldred > -- > Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPL F1 hcp. +39.11/F3 hcp. +373.73 > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats

you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On Tue, 19 Dec 2000 19:59:45 +0100, "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote: >5pm... that might cause conflicts with dinner, but I don't think I'll be >really hungry by then. <g> > >Count me in. Jan, at what time is 11am EST for us? (no matter what time it is for us, count me in too :) Should we vote for the track we're going to use? Andre

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>Jan. >=--- >EldredP wrote... >> <snip> >> Dec 26th, 11am EST. I have *no* idea what time that would >> be in Belgium...<g> >> >> Eldred >> -- >> Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 >> Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett >> GPL F1 hcp. +39.11/F3 hcp. +373.73 >> >> Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats >you >> with experience... >> Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. >

Eh... Andre, You replied to a post in which I mentioned the CET time, 5pm Tuesday December 26th. I heard a runour about Solitude, but in the end it's up to the host I guess. Jan. =--- Andre Warringa wrote... > <snip> > Jan, at what time is 11am EST for us? (no matter what > time it is for us, count me in too :) > Should we vote for the track we're going to use? > > Andre

On Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:57:09 +0100, "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Eh... Andre, > >You replied to a post in which I mentioned the CET time, 5pm Tuesday >December 26th. I did ?? My mistake, but thanks for telling me (for the second time apparantly :)) >I heard a runour about Solitude, but in the end it's up to the host I guess. Perhaps a little bit shorter circuit is more appropriate so we can actually get some racing going on.. Andre

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>Jan. >=--- >Andre Warringa wrote... >> <snip> >> Jan, at what time is 11am EST for us? (no matter what >> time it is for us, count me in too :) >> Should we vote for the track we're going to use? >> >> Andre >

So you're suggesting..... ? Jan. =--- Andre Warringa wrote... > Perhaps a little bit shorter circuit is more appropriate > so we can actually get some racing going on.. > > Andre

If you don't mind the suggestion, make it a FD or FG only race. The prime consideration for such a race should be to have as many people finish it as possible. These classes both close up the ranks and reduce accidents. The f1 people can use their same setups, just bump up the final drive and top gear. Such a race would also help heal the rancor that's been directed at Thurston and Nunnini. rms [email hidden]

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (EldredP) writes: > >Well, if there's enough interest, and my servers are still available, I'll >run one on Dec. 26th. Maybe around 11am EST? Anybody game? > Sounds like fun, I'll be there. Don McCorkle

On Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:47:03 +0100, "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote: >So you're suggesting..... ? My favorites for online racing: 1. Goodwood 2. Zandvoort 3. Kyalami 4. Snetterton 5. Monza Just some suggestions... Andre

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> >Jan. >=--- >Andre Warringa wrote... >> Perhaps a little bit shorter circuit is more appropriate >> so we can actually get some racing going on.. >> >> Andre > >

In article <[email hidden]>, Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> writes:

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>My favorites for online racing: > >1. Goodwood >2. Zandvoort >3. Kyalami >4. Snetterton >5. Monza

I was thinking maybe Zandvoort. There's enough run-off room, especially for a GP race... Kyalami might be a second choice. I'm not even going to *think* about Snetterton or Goodwood... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL F1 hcp. +39.11/F3 hcp. +373.73 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <QaR%5.13921$[email hidden]>, "Roger Squires" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>If you don't mind the suggestion, make it a FD or FG only race. The prime >consideration for such a race should be to have as many people finish it as >possible. These classes both close up the ranks and reduce accidents. The >f1 people can use their same setups, just bump up the final drive and top >gear. > >Such a race would also help heal the rancor that's been directed at Thurston >and Nunnini.

No, I don't mind the suggestion, but I'm not gonna do it...<g> Seriously, I haven't 'embraced' the engine swap program as much as some of you have. Nothing personal, but I just don't like it. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL F1 hcp. +39.11/F3 hcp. +373.73 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On 20 Dec 2000 07:07:31 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote:

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>In article <[email hidden]>, Andre Warringa ><[email hidden]> writes: > >>My favorites for online racing: >> >>1. Goodwood >>2. Zandvoort >>3. Kyalami >>4. Snetterton >>5. Monza > >I was thinking maybe Zandvoort. There's enough run-off room, especially for a >GP race... Kyalami might be a second choice. I'm not even going to *think* >about Snetterton or Goodwood...

Why aren't you going to *think* about Goodwood Eldred, it's really a fantastic track! But Zandy or Kyalami are perfect for me. If I have to choose between the two it would be Zandvoort. Only one good place to overtake someone there, but races at Zandvoort are allways fun. Andre

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> >Eldred >-- >Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 >Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett >GPL F1 hcp. +39.11/F3 hcp. +373.73 > >Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you >with experience... >Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Andre Warringa) writes:

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>>I was thinking maybe Zandvoort. There's enough run-off room, especially for >a >>GP race... Kyalami might be a second choice. I'm not even going to *think* >>about Snetterton or Goodwood... > >Why aren't you going to *think* about Goodwood Eldred, it's really a >fantastic track! But Zandy or Kyalami are perfect for me. If I have to >choose between the two it would be Zandvoort. Only one good place to >overtake someone there, but races at Zandvoort are allways fun.

Because I don't know the track that well...? :) Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL F1 hcp. +39.11/F3 hcp. +373.73 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, Woodie 83 <[email hidden]> writes

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>In article <[email hidden]>, >[email hidden] (EldredP) writes: > >> >>Well, if there's enough interest, and my servers are still available, I'll >>run one on Dec. 26th. Maybe around 11am EST? Anybody game? >> > >Sounds like fun, I'll be there. >

Hope none of you are UK ISP users with 2 hour cut-off times, otherwise you just ain't gonna finish. :( -- Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying No person's opinions can be said to be more correct than another's, because each is the sole judge of his or her own experience.

>Hope none of you are UK ISP users with 2 hour cut-off times, otherwise >you just ain't gonna finish. :( I get cut off after one hour with IC24's 0800 number :-) Luckily there's always Demon. Although is there any chance of putting the start back an hour? I can't make it otherwise... -- Cheers! Graeme Nash

In article <[email hidden]>, Graeme Nash <[email hidden]> writes: >I get cut off after one hour with IC24's 0800 number :-) Luckily there's >always Demon. > >Although is there any chance of putting the start back an hour? I can't >make it otherwise... Meaning, start at noon instead of 11am? That's possible... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL F1 hcp. +39.11/F3 hcp. +373.73 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, Peter Ives <[email hidden]> writes:

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>>>Well, if there's enough interest, and my servers are still available, I'll >>>run one on Dec. 26th. Maybe around 11am EST? Anybody game? >>> >> >>Sounds like fun, I'll be there. >> > >Hope none of you are UK ISP users with 2 hour cut-off times, otherwise >you just ain't gonna finish. :(

That sucks - you automatically get disco'd? Why, if you're paying for the time anyway? Sounds like the UK is getting the short end... :( Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL F1 hcp. +39.11/F3 hcp. +373.73 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, EldredP <[email hidden]> writes

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>In article <[email hidden]>, >Peter Ives ><[email hidden]> writes: > >>>>Well, if there's enough interest, and my servers are still available, I'll >>>>run one on Dec. 26th. Maybe around 11am EST? Anybody game? >>>> >>> >>>Sounds like fun, I'll be there. >>> >> >>Hope none of you are UK ISP users with 2 hour cut-off times, otherwise >>you just ain't gonna finish. :( > >That sucks - you automatically get disco'd? Why, if you're paying for the >time >anyway? Sounds like the UK is getting the short end... :( >

They have a reason, but I cannot be bothered to quote their rhetoric here. I prefer to think that they are just a bunch of arseholes. :) -- Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying No person's opinions can be said to be more correct than another's, because each is the sole judge of his or her own experience.

A lot of the 2 hour cutoffs are free services. They simply do this to stop people connecting permantly and hogging all the modems. You can reconnect immediately. I guess the companies don't put gamers down as a large percentage of their clientelle MS Happy to be on cable after 2 years of waiting. EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <[email hidden]>, Peter Ives > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >>>Well, if there's enough interest, and my servers are still available,I'll

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> >>>run one on Dec. 26th. Maybe around 11am EST? Anybody game? > >>> > >> > >>Sounds like fun, I'll be there. > >> > > > >Hope none of you are UK ISP users with 2 hour cut-off times, otherwise > >you just ain't gonna finish. :( > > That sucks - you automatically get disco'd? Why, if you're paying for the

time

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> anyway? Sounds like the UK is getting the short end... :( > > Eldred > -- > Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPL F1 hcp. +39.11/F3 hcp. +373.73 > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats

you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.