Hi all,
I am trying to figure out what prevents to me
to go fast. I analyzed how I am driving and made
few observations. I would be interested others'
opinion (and in particular of fast drivers) about
them.
- I keep heels on the base of the pedal unit most
of the time (left heel always, right mostly except
when accelerating from the especially difficult corner).
Some real life racers say they don't keep heels on
the floor (though in the real car pedals are not
placed the same way as in computer pedals).
- I operate pedals mostly by the feet. Is it better
to move knees?
- After couple hours of driving I get tired: sore
neck, back, fingers(!). Bad position I suppose. What
are the good ways to sit?
Thanks all,
Alex.
(alexti)
> - I keep heels on the base of the pedal unit most
> of the time (left heel always, right mostly except
> when accelerating from the especially difficult corner).
> Some real life racers say they don't keep heels on
> the floor (though in the real car pedals are not
> placed the same way as in computer pedals).
And therein lies the problem, it depends on what kinda pedals you have. I
have the CH pedals which have a full footpad for each foot so you rest your
feet on them and just use ankle movements. I don't think you can use sim
pedals the same way you would drive a real racecar because a) virtually all
sim pedals require the weight of your foot to stick to the floor so they
don't slide around and b) even if you could get them to stick the floor, the
cheap plastic couldn't handle the full force and weight of your leg slamming
the brake and gas. You could drive gently but then your legs would get
tired from having to hold them in the air. I'd love to hear what others
think...?
-Phasor
On Tue, 26 Dec 2000 00:20:03 GMT, [email hidden]
(Alex) wrote:
<snip>
>- I operate pedals mostly by the feet. Is it better
>to move knees?
I'm not exactly sure what your question is. I guess this depends on
the pedals you use? I have CH Pro pedals and LWFF pedals, and I
operate boths pedals with my feet instead of moving my knees.
Never thought about this actually.
>- After couple hours of driving I get tired: sore
>neck, back, fingers(!). Bad position I suppose. What
>are the good ways to sit?
Getting tired after a 'couple of hours' is normal - take a rest once
in a while man :)
Andre
>Thanks all,
>Alex.
>(alexti)
I mainly use just my feet...more precise...getting tired is normal, though
you may find that you are reaching too much for your wheel or cramped too
close...you want a relaxed position with all joints never locking out
(elbows shouldnt be fully extended when you turn your wheel fully)...about
pedal positions, road cars have pedals hinged at the top, but most rear
engined racers that I have seen (F1, F2000, shifter kart) have the pedals
hinged at the bottom...like normal sim pedals...just food for thought.
JB
"Alex" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted text (25 lines)
> Hi all, > > I am trying to figure out what prevents to me > to go fast. I analyzed how I am driving and made > few observations. I would be interested others' > opinion (and in particular of fast drivers) about > them. > > - I keep heels on the base of the pedal unit most > of the time (left heel always, right mostly except > when accelerating from the especially difficult corner). > Some real life racers say they don't keep heels on > the floor (though in the real car pedals are not > placed the same way as in computer pedals). > > - I operate pedals mostly by the feet. Is it better > to move knees? > > - After couple hours of driving I get tired: sore > neck, back, fingers(!). Bad position I suppose. What > are the good ways to sit? > > Thanks all, > Alex. > (alexti)I think you are looking in the wrong area here. Yes, it
is true that driving position and posture will have an effect
on your laptimes, but only in their consistency..
A truly fast driver like Ayrton Senna would be able to take
an uncomfortable car and still go blindingly fast over a single
lap, but it is in a long race that driving posture makes a difference,
as your muscles get tired and react with less accuracy.
After reading your previous post about lapping at the ring I think you
have the same problem as I do.. we aren't naturally fast!!
Some drivers have an inbuilt ability to go fast almost immediately in
whatever vehicle/sim they drive, other drivers have to work hard to
get to a decent laptime. And then there are people who, however
hard they try, can never seem to go fast!! Nobody wants to think that
they are never going to be fast, so in the end, unless you give up, it's
down to how much work you are prepared to put in...
After running GPL for 2 years, I am only an "average" driver with a
GPLrank of -12. I was never a "natural talent" and had to work hard
on my driving to get to this point. At first i thought, "Ahh it must be
my underpowered PC, or my wheel isn't accurate enough", but after
all this time I can only come to the conclusion that I am not naturally
fast. I try hotlapper setups but I can't drive them because I am all
over the road and crash often.... why?... because I don't drive in the
same way that the hotlappers do. If I sat at their PC, with their setup
and their posture and their wheel and pedals would i be as fast as
them? No. We drive in different ways, and their way is faster than
mine!!! Could I adapt my technique until it matched the hotlappers
techinique? Well, I tried, but after many months it still didn't seem
natural and I still couldn't be consistent. Yes, I managed to knock a
few tenths off a few laptimes, but I couldn't RACE properly, because
it wasn't "instinctive" or "comfortable". And, I never got close to their
fastest times.
When I watch a really fast lap replay, I notice that to get those times
you have to be on the "limit" ALL the way round the track. EVERY
corner must be taken at the optimal speed. This is the ONLY way to
be the fastest and I cannot do it. I will often make mistakes and
lose the car on the limit. This is because their limit is faster than mine.
I practice as much as I can but my limit is still lower than theirs.
"Know your limits"
My solution?? - I drive within MY limits, and spend time making setups
that feel comfortable to ME, whilst keeping me fast enough to be happy.
My cars understeer far too much in comparison to the fast guys, or I have
to brake earlier than them, but I keep it on the track and usually finish in
the
top 6.
Exactly how did I do this? Well I took hotlapper setups and "dumbed them
down" until I could drive them consistently and comfortably. This may mean
making the steering ratio higher so the wheel is less twitchy. The car is
easier to drive but harder to recover from a spin, so I then dumb down the
handling so the car doesnt want to spin as much. Or I learn how to drive
a twitchy setup safely, by staying well within the limits and never giving
the car the opportunity to get into a slide.. okay, its slower, but it keeps
me
on the track and in the race. I learn to drive my (slower) setup using ALL
racing lines on a circuit, lapping both ON the racing line, and practising
driving OFF the racing line in each corner, so I don't get caught out when
I'm fighting with another car. If I can do 11 laps of monza doing 1:29s and
staying on the track, I can beat a car who runs 1:28s and spins once or
twice.
So to sum up, since I accepted that I would never be the fastest, I have
had to make the most of what I have to work with. A lot of people would
say that this is NOT a winners attitude, but the attitude of a loser.
In REAL racing this is probably true, as I wouldn't be fast enough for
a racing team to keep me employed. But, in sim racing it means
I win a few, I lose a few and I do well in a lot of races, but most
importantly, I am HAPPY!
All the best,
Lol SpeedFreek
(UKGPL league admin and Division 2 driver)
UKGPL http://www.ukgpl.com
GPL Rank: -12.15 107% Average: 104.434%
http://www.speedfreek.clubferrari.com
<SNIIIP>
>a racing team to keep me employed. But, in sim racing it means
>I win a few, I lose a few and I do well in a lot of races, but most
>importantly, I am HAPPY!
Great post! Took me a long time to face the facts: I will never be one
of the fastest drivers around. But when I take a look at GPLRank,
there are a LOT of drivers out there who are (even) slower than me,
and that makes me HAPPY! :)
Andre
Quoted text (10 lines)
>All the best, > >Lol SpeedFreek >(UKGPL league admin and Division 2 driver) > >UKGPL http://www.ukgpl.com >GPL Rank: -12.15 107% Average: 104.434% >http://www.speedfreek.clubferrari.com > >SpeedFreek wrote:
Excellent post. One thing I have already learned is that speed gets you
the pole - consistancy puts you on the podium.
/Jens
Quoted text (7 lines)
> So to sum up, since I accepted that I would never be the fastest, I have > had to make the most of what I have to work with. A lot of people would > say that this is NOT a winners attitude, but the attitude of a loser. > In REAL racing this is probably true, as I wouldn't be fast enough for > a racing team to keep me employed. But, in sim racing it means > I win a few, I lose a few and I do well in a lot of races, but most > importantly, I am HAPPY!Excellent post!
[email hidden] (SpeedFreek) wrote in
<92asa9$jhp$[email hidden]>:
>I think you are looking in the wrong area here. Yes, it
>is true that driving position and posture will have an effect
>on your laptimes, but only in their consistency..You are right about that, but there's another factor,
I am not capable to go quick right away, contrary I need
some time to "warm-up". At the time I start to feel the car
and I am ready to make some quick laps, tiredness becomes
an obstacle. So I was hoping to resolve this somehow and
be in a good shape when I am ready for quick laps:)
That's very true. I realise I am not going to be as fast as the
top guys, but there's no reasons why an average person can't
get a rank in the -20 -10 range.
>After running GPL for 2 years, I am only an "average" driver with a
>GPLrank of -12. I was never a "natural talent" and had to work hard
>on my driving to get to this point. At first i thought, "Ahh it must be
>my underpowered PC, or my wheel isn't accurate enough", but after
>all this time I can only come to the conclusion that I am not naturally
>fast.Funny, upgrading PC and changing the wheel actually helped me.
I have found that their setups are quite different from each other.
For me the "comfortable" car is one that's going where it is pointed
and I don't mind to have oversteer -- anyway I don't know how to
slide properly. In the beginning I was quite frustrated by
default setup that are exactly what I don't like. Obviously,
on tracks like Spa or Monza sliding is crucial, so I had to
adjust my driving style. After more than a month my sliding skills
are getting better, but I am still not very comfortable with it.
In contrary, Kyalami and Mosport were much more to my taste.
There I could go pretty quick almost immediately.
> And, I never got close to their fastest times.I don't even dream about that:> I am pretty glad to be
within 107% :>
<SNIP>
I will take your points as a good advise. But be warned
you may regret it in the future. I am likely to be
somewhere around:>
Alex
(alexti)
>Lol SpeedFreek
>(UKGPL league admin and Division 2 driver)
>
>UKGPL http://www.ukgpl.com
>GPL Rank: -12.15 107% Average: 104.434%
>http://www.speedfreek.clubferrari.com
Quoted text (8 lines)
>After reading your previous post about lapping at the ring I think you >have the same problem as I do.. we aren't naturally fast!! >Some drivers have an inbuilt ability to go fast almost immediately in >whatever vehicle/sim they drive, other drivers have to work hard to >get to a decent laptime. And then there are people who, however >hard they try, can never seem to go fast!! Nobody wants to think that >they are never going to be fast, so in the end, unless you give up, it's >down to how much work you are prepared to put in...Quoted text (10 lines)
> I try hotlapper setups but I can't drive them because I am all >over the road and crash often.... why?... because I don't drive in the >same way that the hotlappers do. If I sat at their PC, with their setup >and their posture and their wheel and pedals would i be as fast as >them? No. We drive in different ways, and their way is faster than >mine!!! Could I adapt my technique until it matched the hotlappers >techinique? Well, I tried, but after many months it still didn't seem >natural and I still couldn't be consistent. Yes, I managed to knock a >few tenths off a few laptimes, but I couldn't RACE properly, because >it wasn't "instinctive" or "comfortable"."SpeedFreek" <[email hidden]> wrote
> After running GPL for 2 years, I am only an "average" driver with a
> GPLrank of -12.
Considering the average GPL driver has a rank of around +66, your far away
from the term "average", I say.
But nice post, still ;)
--
-- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.WeRace.net
-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.
[email hidden] (ymenard) wrote in
<glc26.5944$[email hidden]>:
That average includes F2 and F3 accounts, so average
of +66 doesn't say much. I wonder what is real average
F1 rank.
Alex
(alexti).
Quoted text (8 lines)
>"SpeedFreek" <[email hidden]> wrote >> After running GPL for 2 years, I am only an "average" driver with a >> GPLrank of -12. > >Considering the average GPL driver has a rank of around +66, your far >away from the term "average", I say. > >But nice post, still ;)On Tue, 26 Dec 2000 19:39:42 -0000, "SpeedFreek"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
<Lots of good stuff>
Excellent post as other have said and I echo their words.
I have some thoughts on this but not sure if I can express them
adequately, but i'll have a go.
I get to look at quite a few peoples replays and of late I've also
watched a few other people drive in race replays etc.
I've often felt tnat people give them selves much too hard a time
of it in braking and corner entry->apex, really on a knife edge,
braking as late as possible and carrying the maximum speed
possible to the apex, only to exit the corner leaving at least
a cars width on the exit road, and (from my perception) not
thinking about getting on the power until the corner entry phase
->apex has been succesfully negotiated.
I find myself slipping into this when really trying to put a hot
qualifying lap in, putting so much concentration into the
braking/corner entry, building up so much tension, then
mentally "backing off" on the exit, half thinking about where
to brake for the next corner.
It's strange that I fell and still fall into this habit, I raced for
many years and braking/corner entry was simply not a big
drama, unless you where trying to outbrake someone. I've
never, ever lost it under braking or on corner entry in real
life.
It IS harder in GPL though, as you don't have the brake feel
and if you leave no margin for error you are going to mess up
sooner or later. This is made all the more likely if you are
very tense and go into the braking zone with even the
slightest doubt that you'll mess up.
I think my "message" is that there are things that you can
do to make you faster that involved minimal or no risk (
better line, usings all of the track, getting the power on
earlier/smoother) and avoid those with very high risk
(absolute latest braking, absolute maximum speed
carrying into a corner).
The later leave no margin for error, if you get either
very slightly wrong your exit is compromised and you'll be
bags slower. If you brake a few metres earlier you can
always ease back a touch to be carrying a good speed
into the corner, or give a little gas as well (has added
advanrtages). By carrying a little less speed into the
corner, you can position the car optimal for a perfect
exit line and be on the power before the apex, which
is going to gain time you simply cannot achieve by
any demon braking manouvres.
Hope the point comes across, most of you guys that posted
I know will know and practice this (yes?) but just for other
readers that don't ...
Maxx
Alex <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
No, it amkes no difference but heels on base is usually more comfortable.
> - I operate pedals mostly by the feet. Is it better
> to move knees?
Again, preference, feet is usally more comfortable.
> - After couple hours of driving I get tired: sore
> neck, back, fingers(!). Bad position I suppose. What
> are the good ways to sit?
Yes, probably how you sit.
The best racing position is the same as as road car only a race driver tends
to be more horizontal.
The best driving position is to sit at a distance from the wheel where
you're close enough so your arms are bent but just away enough so that you
can make a full lock without moving your hands oin the wheel and without
discomfort. Not too hard, takes all of 10 seconds to do before playing.
Pedals are the same, lefts slightly bent but away enough so that you can
move the pedal in a full range without discomfort or hesitation. Different
for everyone due to their size.
