Upgrade PC or Replace It?

I have a PC that I'd like to upgrade for game use. I'm mostly interested in driving games (SCGT, GPL, etc.). Just got a Logitech WingMan Formula Force GP wheel for Christmas. Now I'm wondering if I can crank up the old PC enough to get the best use of the new wheel. Here's the current system configuration. Would the newest video cards work with a slower machine like this one? What do you experts recommend? Dell Pentium II, 350 MHz, 128 MB RAM, MS Windows 98 STB nVIDIA TNT 16mb AGP 1 full-length AGP expansion slot, 3 full-length 32-bit PCI expansion -card slots, 1 full-length 16-bit ISA expansion-card slot, 1 full-length shared expansion-card slot. (both PCI and ISA connectors) Dell says "dedicated graphics bus that enhances 3D graphics performance and supports up to 2X AGP at 133 MHz based on the video card." Any ideas for cost-effective upgrades?......Rich S.

<Emphasis amount="a lot">Graphics card</Emphasis> /Carl RS191 <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I have a PC that I'd like to upgrade for game use. I'm mostly interestedin > driving games (SCGT, GPL, etc.). Just got a Logitech WingMan FormulaForce GP > wheel for Christmas. Now I'm wondering if I can crank up the old PCenough to > get the best use of the new wheel. > > Here's the current system configuration. Would the newest video cardswork

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> with a slower machine like this one? What do you experts recommend? > > Dell Pentium II, 350 MHz, 128 MB RAM, MS Windows 98 > STB nVIDIA TNT 16mb AGP > 1 full-length AGP expansion slot, > 3 full-length 32-bit PCI expansion -card slots, > 1 full-length 16-bit ISA expansion-card slot, > 1 full-length shared expansion-card slot. (both PCI and ISA connectors) > Dell says "dedicated graphics bus that enhances 3D graphics performance > and supports up to 2X AGP at 133 MHz based on the video card." > > Any ideas for cost-effective upgrades?......Rich S.

If it was me, I'd upgrade the cpu and the graphics card, preferably both at the same time if money allows. I recently upgraded my cpu from a celeron 433 to a pentium 3 850. The graphics card I have is a Voodoo3 2000. I've gotten a bigger improvement in changing the cpu, than if I kept the celeron and went for a faster graphics card. I will get a better one, maybe a geoforce2 gts, but after having upgraded the way I did, it's not an "urgent" thing anymore. "Carl Ribbegaardh" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:6bn26.3760$[email hidden]...

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> <Emphasis amount="a lot">Graphics card</Emphasis> > > /Carl > > RS191 <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I have a PC that I'd like to upgrade for game use. I'm mostly

interested

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> in > > driving games (SCGT, GPL, etc.). Just got a Logitech WingMan Formula > Force GP > > wheel for Christmas. Now I'm wondering if I can crank up the old PC > enough to > > get the best use of the new wheel. > > > > Here's the current system configuration. Would the newest video cards > work > > with a slower machine like this one? What do you experts recommend? > > > > Dell Pentium II, 350 MHz, 128 MB RAM, MS Windows 98 > > STB nVIDIA TNT 16mb AGP > > 1 full-length AGP expansion slot, > > 3 full-length 32-bit PCI expansion -card slots, > > 1 full-length 16-bit ISA expansion-card slot, > > 1 full-length shared expansion-card slot. (both PCI and ISA connectors) > > Dell says "dedicated graphics bus that enhances 3D graphics performance > > and supports up to 2X AGP at 133 MHz based on the video card." > > > > Any ideas for cost-effective upgrades?......Rich S. > >

Yes, but he's got a TNT 1. His card is definitely the bottleneck, and by just bying a TNT2 he'll gain very much. (and a good TNT2 is _cheap_) /Carl Incubus <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:DJn26.6195$[email hidden]... > If it was me, I'd upgrade the cpu and the graphics card, preferably bothat > the same time if money allows. > > I recently upgraded my cpu from a celeron 433 to a pentium 3 850. The > graphics card I have is a Voodoo3 2000. I've gotten a bigger improvementin > changing the cpu, than if I kept the celeron and went for a fastergraphics

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> card. I will get a better one, maybe a geoforce2 gts, but after having > upgraded the way I did, it's not an "urgent" thing anymore. > > "Carl Ribbegaardh" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:6bn26.3760$[email hidden]... > > <Emphasis amount="a lot">Graphics card</Emphasis> > > > > /Carl > > > > RS191 <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > I have a PC that I'd like to upgrade for game use. I'm mostly > interested > > in > > > driving games (SCGT, GPL, etc.). Just got a Logitech WingMan Formula > > Force GP > > > wheel for Christmas. Now I'm wondering if I can crank up the old PC > > enough to > > > get the best use of the new wheel. > > > > > > Here's the current system configuration. Would the newest video cards > > work > > > with a slower machine like this one? What do you experts recommend? > > > > > > Dell Pentium II, 350 MHz, 128 MB RAM, MS Windows 98 > > > STB nVIDIA TNT 16mb AGP > > > 1 full-length AGP expansion slot, > > > 3 full-length 32-bit PCI expansion -card slots, > > > 1 full-length 16-bit ISA expansion-card slot, > > > 1 full-length shared expansion-card slot. (both PCI and ISA

connectors) > > > Dell says "dedicated graphics bus that enhances 3D graphicsperformance

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> > > and supports up to 2X AGP at 133 MHz based on the video card." > > > > > > Any ideas for cost-effective upgrades?......Rich S. > > > > > >

A few ideas: CPU: P3-800 $200 / P3-866 $260 / P3-933 $360 (800 is best bang for the buck... no AMD please) (New chips are socket-370 so you will need a new board or adapter to socket-A) MB: ASUS CUSL2 w/ ATA100 support $160 (socket-370 board) Video: TNT2's can be found for $60ish, or GeForce2's from $150+ (32mb) to $350+ (64mb) Knowing DELL, you will have slow RAM and slow HD. The above upgrades will speed up the general performance of the PC by a lot, but the RAM and HD will now show their weakness. Anything less then the above will only require another upgrade in a matter of months. HD: IBM ATA100 30g $160 (Stay away from Western Digital no matter what) RAM: PC133 128mg $80 (or 256mb $145) "RS191" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I have a PC that I'd like to upgrade for game use. I'm mostly interestedin > driving games (SCGT, GPL, etc.). Just got a Logitech WingMan FormulaForce GP > wheel for Christmas. Now I'm wondering if I can crank up the old PCenough to > get the best use of the new wheel. > > Here's the current system configuration. Would the newest video cardswork

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> with a slower machine like this one? What do you experts recommend? > > Dell Pentium II, 350 MHz, 128 MB RAM, MS Windows 98 > STB nVIDIA TNT 16mb AGP > 1 full-length AGP expansion slot, > 3 full-length 32-bit PCI expansion -card slots, > 1 full-length 16-bit ISA expansion-card slot, > 1 full-length shared expansion-card slot. (both PCI and ISA connectors) > Dell says "dedicated graphics bus that enhances 3D graphics performance > and supports up to 2X AGP at 133 MHz based on the video card." > > Any ideas for cost-effective upgrades?......Rich S.

Find out if your BIOS supports Celeron and/or Coppermine processors or if you can flash upgrade it to do so. A faster CPU would help. You have 100Mhz FSB, as evidenced by your P2/350 CPU, so any of the Celerons (which have a native 66Mhz FSB) can probably be shoved up the scale a bit to run @ 100Mhz. For instance, a 566Mhz Celeron could be run @ 850Mhz (with extra cooling, of course) if your BIOS supports that amount of multiplier and the Coppermine core. You can get this CPU with cooling stuff and a Slotket for under 100$ and that is surely a cost-effective upgrade. You could use a new video card, but I am not going to start a flame war by suggesting one in particular. The VooDoo 5 should drop in price over the next few months, and can be had for less than 150$ these days if you shop carefully. It is a nice card, but obviously you will have a "lame duck" video card. I have never owned an Nvidia powered card, but they are spoken of highly by some in this group. Some of the 32 meg MX versions are available pretty cheap and that would be an improvement, as well. I am in line for a new vid card soon (have a V3, now), as I am upgrading through the spring, but I have decided to wait and see how the product lines and prices shake out since Nvidia's acquisition of 3Dfx. Hope this helps, ~daxe PS: Ram is pretty cheap right now, so you might grab an extra 128M if you can. It may be overkill at the moment, but won't be overkill forever. On 27 Dec 2000 14:32:20 GMT, [email hidden] (RS191) wrote:

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>I have a PC that I'd like to upgrade for game use. I'm mostly interested in >driving games (SCGT, GPL, etc.). Just got a Logitech WingMan Formula Force GP >wheel for Christmas. Now I'm wondering if I can crank up the old PC enough to >get the best use of the new wheel. > >Here's the current system configuration. Would the newest video cards work >with a slower machine like this one? What do you experts recommend? > >Dell Pentium II, 350 MHz, 128 MB RAM, MS Windows 98 >STB nVIDIA TNT 16mb AGP >1 full-length AGP expansion slot, >3 full-length 32-bit PCI expansion -card slots, >1 full-length 16-bit ISA expansion-card slot, >1 full-length shared expansion-card slot. (both PCI and ISA connectors) >Dell says "dedicated graphics bus that enhances 3D graphics performance >and supports up to 2X AGP at 133 MHz based on the video card." > >Any ideas for cost-effective upgrades?......Rich S.

It all depends on how much money he wants/has to spend... The best bang for his buck is a new video card.... You might was well go all out and get a decent card, at least this way, if you get a new system this year you can move the video card over to it.... But Tim (and others) are right in that a new Motherboard and CPU, in conjunction with an upgraded video card will transform your system into something that can handle the games you mention plus newer more system resource demanding titles too... Jay J "Tim McArthur" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:qdo26.45652$[email hidden]...

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> A few ideas: > > CPU: P3-800 $200 / P3-866 $260 / P3-933 $360 (800 is best bang for the > buck... no AMD please) > (New chips are socket-370 so you will need a new board or adapter to > socket-A) > MB: ASUS CUSL2 w/ ATA100 support $160 (socket-370 board) > Video: TNT2's can be found for $60ish, or GeForce2's from $150+ (32mb) to > $350+ (64mb) > > Knowing DELL, you will have slow RAM and slow HD. The above upgrades will > speed up the general performance of the PC by a lot, but the RAM and HD

will

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> now show their weakness. Anything less then the above will only require > another upgrade in a matter of months. > > HD: IBM ATA100 30g $160 (Stay away from Western Digital no matter what) > RAM: PC133 128mg $80 (or 256mb $145) > > > "RS191" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I have a PC that I'd like to upgrade for game use. I'm mostly

interested

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> in > > driving games (SCGT, GPL, etc.). Just got a Logitech WingMan Formula > Force GP > > wheel for Christmas. Now I'm wondering if I can crank up the old PC > enough to > > get the best use of the new wheel. > > > > Here's the current system configuration. Would the newest video cards > work > > with a slower machine like this one? What do you experts recommend? > > > > Dell Pentium II, 350 MHz, 128 MB RAM, MS Windows 98 > > STB nVIDIA TNT 16mb AGP > > 1 full-length AGP expansion slot, > > 3 full-length 32-bit PCI expansion -card slots, > > 1 full-length 16-bit ISA expansion-card slot, > > 1 full-length shared expansion-card slot. (both PCI and ISA connectors) > > Dell says "dedicated graphics bus that enhances 3D graphics performance > > and supports up to 2X AGP at 133 MHz based on the video card." > > > > Any ideas for cost-effective upgrades?......Rich S. > >

In article <qdo26.45652$[email hidden]>, "Tim McArthur" <[email hidden]> wrote: > A few ideas: > > CPU: P3-800 $200 / P3-866 $260 / P3-933 $360 (800 is best bang for the > buck... no AMD please) > (New chips are socket-370 so you will need a new board or adapterto > socket-A) > MB: ASUS CUSL2 w/ ATA100 support $160 (socket-370 board) > Video: TNT2's can be found for $60ish, or GeForce2's from $150+(32mb) to > $350+ (64mb) > > Knowing DELL, you will have slow RAM and slow HD. The above upgradeswill > speed up the general performance of the PC by a lot, but the RAM andHD will > now show their weakness. Anything less then the above will onlyrequire > another upgrade in a matter of months. > > HD: IBM ATA100 30g $160 (Stay away from Western Digital no matterwhat) > RAM: PC133 128mg $80 (or 256mb $145) A couple important points - you can get slot-1 PIII CPU's all the way up to 1gigahertz, but of course you need 133 front side bus (which that Dell probably doesn't support). You can get up to 850Mhz in a 100FSB PIII, and as long as the system supports it, it would be a huge performance increase. That would be your best bang for the buck upgrade, and you could go with a V3/TNT2 for an inexpensive video boost. If you go for a Geforce2MX, get one with DDR memory (the Creative Labs one, IIRC). Good luck! Kendt Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

For GPL, I think the most cost effective upgrade you can do is a voodoo3-3000 agp. They can be found cheap and are great for gpl. But understand that 3dfx, the maker, is being bought out by nvidia. You should also consider a sb live value sound card. In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (RS191) wrote: > I have a PC that I'd like to upgrade for game use. I'm mostlyinterested in > driving games (SCGT, GPL, etc.). Just got a Logitech WingMan FormulaForce GP > wheel for Christmas. Now I'm wondering if I can crank up the old PCenough to > get the best use of the new wheel. > > Here's the current system configuration. Would the newest videocards work

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> with a slower machine like this one? What do you experts recommend? > > Dell Pentium II, 350 MHz, 128 MB RAM, MS Windows 98 > STB nVIDIA TNT 16mb AGP > 1 full-length AGP expansion slot, > 3 full-length 32-bit PCI expansion -card slots, > 1 full-length 16-bit ISA expansion-card slot, > 1 full-length shared expansion-card slot. (both PCI and ISA

connectors) > Dell says "dedicated graphics bus that enhances 3D graphicsperformance > and supports up to 2X AGP at 133 MHz based on the video card." > > Any ideas for cost-effective upgrades?......Rich S. > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

Best bang for the buck is: A celeron 566 and O/C it to 850+ $90.00 (This depends on your MB of course.) A GeForce 2 MX $90.00 Total $180.00 plus shipping ! Ya cannot beat it !

In addition to all the other comments, if you really want to enjoy online racing with GPL, you need to get a external modem (no winmodem), cable, or dsl line. All the other improvements won't be of use if you don't have a good connection when online....KC "RS191" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I have a PC that I'd like to upgrade for game use. I'm mostly interestedin > driving games (SCGT, GPL, etc.). Just got a Logitech WingMan FormulaForce GP > wheel for Christmas. Now I'm wondering if I can crank up the old PCenough to > get the best use of the new wheel. > > Here's the current system configuration. Would the newest video cardswork

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> with a slower machine like this one? What do you experts recommend? > > Dell Pentium II, 350 MHz, 128 MB RAM, MS Windows 98 > STB nVIDIA TNT 16mb AGP > 1 full-length AGP expansion slot, > 3 full-length 32-bit PCI expansion -card slots, > 1 full-length 16-bit ISA expansion-card slot, > 1 full-length shared expansion-card slot. (both PCI and ISA connectors) > Dell says "dedicated graphics bus that enhances 3D graphics performance > and supports up to 2X AGP at 133 MHz based on the video card." > > Any ideas for cost-effective upgrades?......Rich S.

Tim McArthur <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:qdo26.45652$[email hidden]... > A few ideas: > > CPU: P3-800 $200 / P3-866 $260 / P3-933 $360 (800 is best bang for the > buck... no AMD please) I agree with most of your recommendations, but why this one? What does "no AMD please" mean? Why would anyone in his right mind choose a slower more expensive processor given all other things are equal? I'm neither pro-Intel nor pro-AMD. I'm just curious. Eric

On Wed, 27 Dec 2000 17:09:23 GMT, [email hidden] wrote: >A couple important points - you can get slot-1 PIII CPU's all the way >up to 1gigahertz, but of course you need 133 front side bus (which that >Dell probably doesn't support). There are P3/1000s in both 133 and 100 FSB. The 100 is more expensive, probably due to the higher installed base of upgradable 100FSB MoBos. You arent trapped into a Slot1 CPU, either. A slotket is a fine way to go and offers some flexibility your Motherboard may not offer. ~daxe

>Here's the current system configuration. Would the newest video cards work >with a slower machine like this one? What do you experts recommend? > Based on my experience Dell's are a pain to update. They chose the cheapest part every time so your upgrade doesn't do as much as it should and they often have proprietary stuff that gets in your way. Therefore my advice: For right now, just get a great value video card in the $100 range, either a GeForce MX or a Voodoo 3. When that isn't enough for you build (it's amazingly easy) or get built at a small computer shop a new PC that's designed to be upgraded - good motherboard, etc. One or two steps down from the latest and greatest (CPU, video card, etc.) is your best value. bob

I chose to go with a Pentium III 933 rather than an AMD earlier this year, part of my decision was based on all the past posts to this newsgroup with AMD owners running into compatibility issues, lockup issues, etc, etc.... These days with the Thunderbird chip I'm sure AMD is just as stable as a Pentium and probably cheaper for more speed.... I would guess that Tim's statement reflected past problems he or someone he knows had with AMD chips... Jay J "Eric Cooper" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:92dobi$srn$[email hidden]...

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> Tim McArthur <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:qdo26.45652$[email hidden]... > > A few ideas: > > > > CPU: P3-800 $200 / P3-866 $260 / P3-933 $360 (800 is best bang for the > > buck... no AMD please) > > I agree with most of your recommendations, but why this one? What does

"no > AMD please" mean? Why would anyone in his right mind choose a slower more > expensive processor given all other things are equal? I'm neitherpro-Intel > nor pro-AMD. I'm just curious. > > Eric > >

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> A couple important points - you can get slot-1 PIII CPU's all the way > up to 1gigahertz, but of course you need 133 front side bus (which that > Dell probably doesn't support). You can get up to 850Mhz in a 100FSB > PIII, and as long as the system supports it, it would be a huge > performance increase. That would be your best bang for the buck > upgrade, and you could go with a V3/TNT2 for an inexpensive video > boost. If you go for a Geforce2MX, get one with DDR memory (the > Creative Labs one, IIRC).

Do _not_ buy a MX-card with DDR-memory. They are slower than the ones with SDR-memory. JS

In article <Un036.689$[email hidden]>, "Jore" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > Do _not_ buy a MX-card with DDR-memory. They are slower than the ones >with SDR-memory. Really? - yikes! One more reason to dislike nVidia ;)... Did they clock the cards slower thinking they'd make up for it with DDR? Or did they use slow memory, and think they'd get market-share based on "DDR" as a buzzword? Kendt Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

Jore wrote:

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> > > A couple important points - you can get slot-1 PIII CPU's all the way > > up to 1gigahertz, but of course you need 133 front side bus (which that > > Dell probably doesn't support). You can get up to 850Mhz in a 100FSB > > PIII, and as long as the system supports it, it would be a huge > > performance increase. That would be your best bang for the buck > > upgrade, and you could go with a V3/TNT2 for an inexpensive video > > boost. If you go for a Geforce2MX, get one with DDR memory (the > > Creative Labs one, IIRC). > > Do _not_ buy a MX-card with DDR-memory. They are slower than the ones with > SDR-memory.

That makes no sense, could you post some links to actual tests or something please Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com http://www.teammirage.com "Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others." --Groucho Marx--

I found a great article that actually looks at what you gain by upgrading either your CPU or your video card. It's a very comprehensive look at whether you stand to gain more from a new CPU or one of the hottest new video cards, and the benchmarks span AMD K6-2 500 systems all the way up to Athlon 1000 and PIII 866. The best part, though is that the review also uses a DRIVING SIM (MBTR) as one of the benchmarks, so it gives you a VERY good idea of where your system currently stacks up, and which upgrade (CPU or video card) might serve you the best. Check it out here: http://www.aceshardware.com/Spades/read.php?article_id=15000175 Nice to see some acknowledgement that driving/racing sims are beasts of a different color when it comes to systems, hardware, and benchmarking. The actual article starts here, if you want to read the whole thing: http://www.aceshardware.com/Spades/read.php?article_id=15000172 FWIW, I recently upgraded my AMD K6-2 500 system to a Duron 600 that I've successfully unlocked and overclocked. I've got it installed in an MSI K7T Pro2 board, which allows easy overclocking by means of clock frequency multiplier settings in bios, and after doing some initial testing at 600 MHz (6 x 100), I bumped it up to 750 (7.5 x 100); the Duron's performance at 600 is astounding, and I'm very satisfied with it running at 750 MHz. I'm using a 16 MB TNT2 Ultra clocked at 160/183, and EVERYTHING just plain flies on this system, including the hardware hog of hardware hogs, F1 2000. Even with a lowly TNT2 Ultra, GPL is also smooth as silk (solid 36 fps). I am absolutely amazed -- I'm seeing PIII-level performance, and the Duron CPU only cost me $56 (they're down to $45 on Pricewatch). I also had to buy the motherboard, of course (an additional $126 with shipping), plus an ATX case ($36, which you wouldn't have to spend if you already have an ATX case), and for a grand total of $218, I am extremely pleased with the bang-for-the-buck that I'm getting now. Plus, this current setup should be able to meet or surpass 800 MHz if/when I decide to push it, or I can always drop in a faster Duron or T-Bird later on for less than a new video card would set me back. Based on all this, it looks to me like Duron-based systems like this one might be THE type of systems that will offer the maximum return on investment for the racing sim community. It's always tempting to look at the latest in video card technology as the cheapest way to upgrade for better performance, but a new video card is not always the cheapest and most effective upgrade route. I basically transplanted my existing PC100 RAM from my previous K6-2 500 Socket-7 sytem, as well as the existing TNT2 card, hard drives, CD-ROM, and floppy, so although it involved a new motherboard, CPU, and case, I still consider this an "upgrade" rather than a brand-new system. And I KNOW I could have easily spent this much on a new video card, but I wouldn't have realized the same type of performance gains in my tired, old K6-2 Socket 7 system and a GeForce2 DDR or a Voodoo 5 5500 that I'm now enjoying with my Duron and my "meager" TNT2. Hope this helps a bit. -- JB In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (RS191) wrote: > I have a PC that I'd like to upgrade for game use. I'm mostlyinterested in > driving games (SCGT, GPL, etc.). Just got a Logitech WingMan FormulaForce GP > wheel for Christmas. Now I'm wondering if I can crank up the old PCenough to > get the best use of the new wheel. > > Here's the current system configuration. Would the newest videocards work

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> with a slower machine like this one? What do you experts recommend? > > Dell Pentium II, 350 MHz, 128 MB RAM, MS Windows 98 > STB nVIDIA TNT 16mb AGP > 1 full-length AGP expansion slot, > 3 full-length 32-bit PCI expansion -card slots, > 1 full-length 16-bit ISA expansion-card slot, > 1 full-length shared expansion-card slot. (both PCI and ISA

connectors) > Dell says "dedicated graphics bus that enhances 3D graphicsperformance > and supports up to 2X AGP at 133 MHz based on the video card." > > Any ideas for cost-effective upgrades?......Rich S. > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/