so, in the papyurus sims we've now got that use the cracking GPL phys
engine, i have to ask whether the driving techniques used in these can be
used in real life.
Firstly, let me state that trail braking is moving from the throttle to the
brake prior to a corner, getting most braking done in a straight line, then
comming off the brake a little and turning into the corner (notice i didnt
mention throttle after the brake was touched)
In GPL and especially N4 it is easier to go into corners with a loose and
quick car by pressing the brake whilst letting off the accelerator, and
keeping a little throttle on the whole time (the GPL people will say 'you
are dynamically altering brake bias', to which i would say ' you dont do
that in real life')
so, is it just a matter of implementing proper brake wear into papyrus sims
that would dissuade people from this bad habit? Or is there a moer
fundamental problem with the papyrus phys engine?
pez wants a discussion, as pez loves GPL, its tought me alot, and im racing
cars this year, dont want to learn bad habits from computer games.
It is not a matter of brake wear (unless in an endurance race) but more a
matter of any throttle means a force pushing forward, and any force pushing
forward is not helping the car slow. In a real race car, brake bias is
adjusted to the max, not excessive rear bias and then tuned with the gas.
The physics engine obviously has a glitch in it where "dynamic brake bias"
makes the car slow faster than it should...I don't know what they screwed up
on (maybe just the implementation of brake bias...maybe as the bias is moved
more rearward, the brake force isn't taken away from the front at the same
rate that it is given to the rear) but it just works. I know I have learned
to drive this way in GPL and I am sure that this year I will screw up a good
few brake zones in real life racing, but I suppose I will have to relearn
everything.
JB
"Alexpez" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:9406sv$ble$[email hidden]...
> so, in the papyurus sims we've now got that use the cracking GPL phys
> engine, i have to ask whether the driving techniques used in these can be
> used in real life.
>
> Firstly, let me state that trail braking is moving from the throttle tothe
> brake prior to a corner, getting most braking done in a straight line,then
sims
> that would dissuade people from this bad habit? Or is there a moer
> fundamental problem with the papyrus phys engine?
>
> pez wants a discussion, as pez loves GPL, its tought me alot, and imracing
> cars this year, dont want to learn bad habits from computer games.
>
>
Quoted text (10 lines)
> comming off the brake a little and turning into the corner (notice i didnt > mention throttle after the brake was touched) > > In GPL and especially N4 it is easier to go into corners with a loose and > quick car by pressing the brake whilst letting off the accelerator, and > keeping a little throttle on the whole time (the GPL people will say 'you > are dynamically altering brake bias', to which i would say ' you dont do > that in real life') > > so, is it just a matter of implementing proper brake wear into papyrus
"Wosco" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:FoO86.751$[email hidden]...
> It is not a matter of brake wear (unless in an endurance race) but more a
> matter of any throttle means a force pushing forward, and any forcepushing
> forward is not helping the car slow. In a real race car, brake bias is
> adjusted to the max, not excessive rear bias and then tuned with the gas.
> The physics engine obviously has a glitch in it where "dynamic brake bias"
> makes the car slow faster than it should.
I don't know about that. If the brakes are more powerful than you need them
to be, powerful enough to lock the rears, then I don't see how giving it a
little gas could hurt.
I've noticed that the rears seem to be more prone to locking up at lower
engine rpm's, so giving it a little gas might help prevent that. I don't
use that technique myself (just can't get the hang of it), but I do time my
downshifts to get the most out of the brakes. When I feel the rears are
about to lock, that's when I downshift. My theory is that this puts more
momentum into the flywheel, and thus helps keep the rears turning. Maybe
there's just more engine braking at lower RPM's, I really don't know. But I
am pretty sure that the brake balance is effectively variable whether you
want it to be, or not. But I have no idea how realistic that is.
-Aubrey
Personally, I've raced just about every sim out there...I want to race real
cars...well, I sort of got my chance by driving a kart at the Las Vegas
Karting Center...that track holds the SKUSA Supernationals and the CART
Stars of Tomorrow events (arguably the two biggest karting events of the
year). No, I wasn't racing in either, but I got to test a kart a couple of
weeks after these events. Memo Gidley, Richie Hearn, and Alex Barron all
said that driving a kart is very similar to driving a champ car...just
without the speed...well, I'm here to tell you that driving a kart is just
like driving a champ car in indy car racing II. My advice to those who want
to use sims to help keep those skills on par - race whatever sim you have
that's as close to your real thing as possible...I race ICR2 all the time
now, and GPL a little less...just in case so I don't develop bad
habits...heh...
-Kaaveh
P.S. Don't ask me what relevance this has to the subject at matter...cause
I don't really know...
"Alexpez" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:9406sv$ble$[email hidden]...
> so, in the papyurus sims we've now got that use the cracking GPL phys
> engine, i have to ask whether the driving techniques used in these can be
> used in real life.
>
> Firstly, let me state that trail braking is moving from the throttle tothe
> brake prior to a corner, getting most braking done in a straight line,then
sims
> that would dissuade people from this bad habit? Or is there a moer
> fundamental problem with the papyrus phys engine?
>
> pez wants a discussion, as pez loves GPL, its tought me alot, and imracing
> cars this year, dont want to learn bad habits from computer games.
>
>
Quoted text (10 lines)
> comming off the brake a little and turning into the corner (notice i didnt > mention throttle after the brake was touched) > > In GPL and especially N4 it is easier to go into corners with a loose and > quick car by pressing the brake whilst letting off the accelerator, and > keeping a little throttle on the whole time (the GPL people will say 'you > are dynamically altering brake bias', to which i would say ' you dont do > that in real life') > > so, is it just a matter of implementing proper brake wear into papyrusAFAIK there is a degree to which you may stay on the power and induce some
strange car reactions once you are in cars with a bit of oomph in them, or
perhaps cars without oomph to help manoeuvre them.
In "general race driving 101" you get off the throttle and on the brakes,
off the brakes, on the throttle... That's the ideal situation but it doesn't
always work like that. Just like how your though to deal with a 90 deg.
corner when being thought racing lines... how many perfect 90deg., corners
can you get in the mountainous German countryside in GPL, (Nurburgring).
If you are braking in a straight line though, like the end of a straight,
throttle is a major no, no! Jim Clark may say different of a 1967 GP car but
GPL is a little extreme with Huttu and Grandis, etc, setups. Very quick and
great drivers control these setups but some bits seem like physics
loop-holes to me.
This does bring me back to my main problem with GPL though, so many pieces
of the physics are exaggerated and this may be one of them, where you have
to apply throttle under braking to compensate some otherwise uncontrollable
(yet very quick) setups.
Just over exaggerated like much of the GPL physics like 17 summersaults
after tipping a fence. Or how at Varianta Alta (is that what it's called?)
at Monza, you suddenly transform your car into a 2001 F1 car will super-soft
slicks and monster downforce yet so little drag that the car goes flat out.
A little offline and the car waves from side to side, violently loosing and
regaining traction, now I know this happens in real life, no doubts, but at
such greater speeds and cornering loading forces... phew, I don't think so,
not like GPL anyway, it should understeer or else after a few waves loose
the back end.
Just a few examples of my gripes with the physics. The longevity is not the
uniqueness or great physics of GPL but it's editablilty, thats what keeps me
coming back, it's the only sim anyone bothers editing.
Alexpez <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:9406sv$ble$[email hidden]...
> so, in the papyurus sims we've now got that use the cracking GPL phys
> engine, i have to ask whether the driving techniques used in these can be
> used in real life.
>
> Firstly, let me state that trail braking is moving from the throttle tothe
> brake prior to a corner, getting most braking done in a straight line,then
sims
> that would dissuade people from this bad habit? Or is there a moer
> fundamental problem with the papyrus phys engine?
>
> pez wants a discussion, as pez loves GPL, its tought me alot, and imracing
> cars this year, dont want to learn bad habits from computer games.
>
>
Quoted text (10 lines)
> comming off the brake a little and turning into the corner (notice i didnt > mention throttle after the brake was touched) > > In GPL and especially N4 it is easier to go into corners with a loose and > quick car by pressing the brake whilst letting off the accelerator, and > keeping a little throttle on the whole time (the GPL people will say 'you > are dynamically altering brake bias', to which i would say ' you dont do > that in real life') > > so, is it just a matter of implementing proper brake wear into papyrus
Aubrey <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:5tR86.3318$[email hidden]...
>
> "Wosco" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:FoO86.751$[email hidden]...
> > It is not a matter of brake wear (unless in an endurance race) but morea
> > matter of any throttle means a force pushing forward, and any force
> pushing
> > forward is not helping the car slow. In a real race car, brake bias is
> > adjusted to the max, not excessive rear bias and then tuned with thegas.
> > The physics engine obviously has a glitch in it where "dynamic brakebias"
> > makes the car slow faster than it should.
>
> I don't know about that. If the brakes are more powerful than you needthem
> to be, powerful enough to lock the rears, then I don't see how giving it a
> little gas could hurt.
Of the top of my head it might hurt like this:
Firstly, applying the brakes while the brake discs are spinning at a greater
force (almost unstopable with a lot of throttle), excessive brakes wear and
overheating brakes, eitherway you're a goner if you over heat brakes while
sloing for Parabolica (in real life). No sim has yet modelled brake wear, or
temperature (a huge factor in real driving if brakes are either too hot or
too cold)
I'm not sure if I'm correct about this but wouldn't it lead to excessive
engine component wear? I mean, you flooring the gas forcing the engine to
rev yet holding it with teh brake... at the very least your not doing good.
Another point, even if adding excess rear bias then countering it with
throttle works, why would you do it? It's so hard, so dangerous and so
easily countered by a proper brake bias.
I just can't get my head around this working in real life as you are only
overheating brakes and making the car MORE unstable as you'd have to break
harder with the engine forcing the wheels to rotate.
Besides,
Accelerating a rear driven car sends the load the the rear thus INCREASING
change of lock up with more rear brake bias aren't you?
Braking transfers weight to the front tus countering rear bias, extreme
front or rear bias upsets all balance as with any factor in car setup.
> I've noticed that the rears seem to be more prone to locking up at lower
> engine rpm's, so giving it a little gas might help prevent that.Increasing the revs even more? Or am i mis-interpreting this?
> I don't
> use that technique myself (just can't get the hang of it), but I do timemy
> downshifts to get the most out of the brakes. When I feel the rears are
> about to lock, that's when I downshift. My theory is that this puts more
> momentum into the flywheel, and thus helps keep the rears turning. Maybe
> there's just more engine braking at lower RPM's, I really don't know. ButI
> am pretty sure that the brake balance is effectively variable whether you
> want it to be, or not. But I have no idea how realistic that is.
Hard to say, a simple test is to run a lap of Monza downshifting quickly
then very slowly. I've never succeeded in being faster downshifting quickly
as when you need to downshift from 5th to 2nd, doing it quickly means the
engine revs highly after downshift driving the car on and reducing braking
effect. Going from 5th into a 4th gear corner isn't the same though as it
carries momentum.
First off I remember an old playstation game that modeled brake temperature
and you could change the width of your brake disks to get the right balance.
And second, we are not talking about FLOORING the gas while on the
brakes...that is just stupid. Rather, we are talking about using partial
throttle against brakes, like 25% throttle.
JB
"GraDee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:9425ud$3t1$[email hidden]...
more
> a
> > > matter of any throttle means a force pushing forward, and any force
> > pushing
> > > forward is not helping the car slow. In a real race car, brake biasis
a
> > little gas could hurt.
>
> Of the top of my head it might hurt like this:
> Firstly, applying the brakes while the brake discs are spinning at agreater
> force (almost unstopable with a lot of throttle), excessive brakes wearand
> overheating brakes, eitherway you're a goner if you over heat brakes while
> sloing for Parabolica (in real life). No sim has yet modelled brake wear,or
> temperature (a huge factor in real driving if brakes are either too hot or
> too cold)
> I'm not sure if I'm correct about this but wouldn't it lead to excessive
> engine component wear? I mean, you flooring the gas forcing the engine to
> rev yet holding it with teh brake... at the very least your not doinggood.
more
> > momentum into the flywheel, and thus helps keep the rears turning.Maybe
> > there's just more engine braking at lower RPM's, I really don't know.But
> I
> > am pretty sure that the brake balance is effectively variable whetheryou
> > want it to be, or not. But I have no idea how realistic that is.
>
> Hard to say, a simple test is to run a lap of Monza downshifting quickly
> then very slowly. I've never succeeded in being faster downshiftingquickly
> as when you need to downshift from 5th to 2nd, doing it quickly means the
> engine revs highly after downshift driving the car on and reducing braking
> effect. Going from 5th into a 4th gear corner isn't the same though as it
> carries momentum.
>
>
Quoted text (7 lines)
> > Aubrey <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:5tR86.3318$[email hidden]... > > > > "Wosco" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:FoO86.751$[email hidden]... > > > It is not a matter of brake wear (unless in an endurance race) butQuoted text (9 lines)
> > > adjusted to the max, not excessive rear bias and then tuned with the > gas. > > > The physics engine obviously has a glitch in it where "dynamic brake > bias" > > > makes the car slow faster than it should. > > > > I don't know about that. If the brakes are more powerful than you need > them > > to be, powerful enough to lock the rears, then I don't see how giving itQuoted text (23 lines)
> Another point, even if adding excess rear bias then countering it with > throttle works, why would you do it? It's so hard, so dangerous and so > easily countered by a proper brake bias. > I just can't get my head around this working in real life as you are only > overheating brakes and making the car MORE unstable as you'd have to break > harder with the engine forcing the wheels to rotate. > > Besides, > Accelerating a rear driven car sends the load the the rear thus INCREASING > change of lock up with more rear brake bias aren't you? > Braking transfers weight to the front tus countering rear bias, extreme > front or rear bias upsets all balance as with any factor in car setup. > > > > I've noticed that the rears seem to be more prone to locking up at lower > > engine rpm's, so giving it a little gas might help prevent that. > Increasing the revs even more? Or am i mis-interpreting this? > > > I don't > > use that technique myself (just can't get the hang of it), but I do time > my > > downshifts to get the most out of the brakes. When I feel the rears are > > about to lock, that's when I downshift. My theory is that this putsOn Tue, 16 Jan 2001 01:10:46 -0000, "Alexpez" <[email hidden]>
wrote:
>so, in the papyurus sims we've now got that use the cracking GPL phys
>engine, i have to ask whether the driving techniques used in these can be
>used in real life.
Well, I think it's very clear that you can do some things in GPL that
a) wouldn't work in real-life and b) if they did would have major
impact on tire adn brake wear.
>Firstly, let me state that trail braking is moving from the throttle to the
>brake prior to a corner, getting most braking done in a straight line, then
>comming off the brake a little and turning into the corner (notice i didnt
>mention throttle after the brake was touched)
Your definition of trail-braking is perfect, however, to trail-brake
into a fast (>80mph) corner you must have some gas on so as
to keep the rears from going really light, losing traction and
sending the car into oversteer.
>In GPL and especially N4 it is easier to go into corners with a loose and
>quick car by pressing the brake whilst letting off the accelerator, and
>keeping a little throttle on the whole time (the GPL people will say 'you
>are dynamically altering brake bias', to which i would say ' you dont do
>that in real life')
I'm not sure I fully understand that. Certainly you are not altering
the brake bias, that is fixed in GPL Most formula cars in real-life
do have cockpit brake-bias adjusters however.
What you are doing by providing power to the rear wheels whilst
braking is altering the weight balance under braking. If the weight
of the car stayed as it was at rest with more weight over the
rear tires you would set brake balance more rearward. You may
add a few extra clicks rearward as well as you have a greater
contact patch at the rear.
Howver, under throttle off braking the weight is shifted dramatically
foward, so we need to give the brakes a more forward bias, plus it
is always preferable for fronts to lose traction fractionally before
rears (although we don't want either of course).
This means we are braking much more with our skinny frint-tyres
than the wide rears. By providing power to the rears we shift the
weight balance under braking more rearward, hence we need to move
our brake balance more rearward to compensate.
We in effect get a greater braking force which, although it has
to brake more (as we are still pushing the car forward with
power) does in fact provide overall, a greater degree of
retardation. Theres a whole load of factors that go into this, but
GPL cars would I suspect, by nature of their realtively poor brake
performance and disparity between front and rear tire contact patches,
benefit greatly from this.
I should stress that we are talking partial throttle here, probably no
more than 25% as suggested in another post.
I've used this myself in single seaters, specifically Formual Ford,
Vauxhall Junior and Vauxhall Lotus but more for it's other benefit
of stabilising the car under heavy braking. With very little weight
on the rears any inblance in the car is likely to "wag the tail".
Especially noticable on the FF/FVJ as these where wingless
car (as GPL of course). The FVLs where winged cars and I
probably didn't need to do this, but perhaps did it out of habit
The lower the cars CoG (centre of gravity) the less of a problem
this forward movement of weight is under heavy braking (I'm sure
theres a formula for this) so with aerodynamic, very low sling modern
formula cars I doubt this is an issue.
It has an added benefit in GPL, assuming you left-foot brake
(the above was done using heel & toe) in that it allows you to fine
tune your corner entry speed a little better. If you do brake with
a little gas, if you brake a little late you can come off (the gas)
just before the turn-in point and get a little extra retardation, thus
still make the corner cleanly. If you brake a little early you can
give it a little more gas, keeping you speed a little higher so as
the enter the corner at the optimum speed.
This is MUCH more preferable to coming off the brake earlier
or backing off the brake as a) it's more difficult to do and
b) you'll take weight away from the front which will compromise
front-end grip, which you need for corner entry, so you'll wash-out
Argh! this has turned into another lecture, I knew it was fatal
to start responding.
In Summary, YES gas+brake is used in real life and B) I do
think (but don't know) that the GPL Physics engine is flawed
in the way it responds to very heavy simultaneous use of
gas + brake.
Oops theres more :
>so, is it just a matter of implementing proper brake wear into papyrus sims
>that would dissuade people from this bad habit? Or is there a moer
>fundamental problem with the papyrus phys engine?See above. Brake fade would be really interesting.
>pez wants a discussion, as pez loves GPL, its tought me alot, and im racing
>cars this year, dont want to learn bad habits from computer games.
What Cars pez? where?
Maxx
