GPL - On-Line Passing

I have noticed that there are several "typical" collisions that occur in on-line GPL races. Start Line: Obviously this is the most difficult part of an on-line race and the best opportunity for a gigantic accident. I feel that alot of these collisions could be avoided if the person behind kept a distance from the guy in front and instead of trying crazy first corner out-breaking moves just let the person to his side slot in front if he had managed to get his nose in-front. First Corner: If a miracle does occur and everyone gets away from the start okay, then the next canditate for a shunt is the first corner. At this point in the race the tyres are still cold and you have very little clue how much room you need to brake. Best idea here is to give the guy in-front room, brake early and try to keep on the racing line. Many times I have slowed as not to bump the guy in front at turn one and been rammed from behind by someone else going full belt! Sometimes I wonder if the person behind was under the impression that the race results were based on his position after turn one? First Lap: Tyres are still cold and drivers are unsure of the cars performance abilities on full tanks. Passing is a much more dangerous prospect when the driver is not in total control of his own vehicle. The fast guy who is involved in an early race crash and is storming through the field: This has to be one of the most annoying types of on-line GPL drivers. Quite a few times I have managed to avoid the start/turn one catastrophe and have moved up quite a bit from my grid position. This is usually spoiled by a driver(s) who were involved in the previous accidents climbing back though the field. I get the impression that some of these drivers think they have some right to be at the front of the field and instead of waiting for a convenient opportunity to pass a slower car will make a wild overtaking move as soon as they are in shooting range of the chap in front. This undoubtedly ends in tears as the driver in front quite rightly is not expecting such a stupid move and quite rightly feels that he has every right to defend his position. Well those are some of the unnecessary causes of on-line accidents, how can we try to avoid them? As I already mentioned, take it easy on the first lap. A race isn't won at the first corner. Consideration should also be given to other hazards associated with this sort of racing, like latency and warp. A cautious first lap or two will ensure that the field will still be pretty close to allow proper racing as the race progresses. Assess the situation. If you catch a slower car, don't try and pass as soon as you have caught up. Follow giving yourself some space for a lap or two and see if you can work out where the person in front may be a bit slower so the next lap you can get yourself into position to try and get past at that point. Also try and consider if it is a safe passing point. Don't fight for the corner if there is no hope of winning it. If the person following you has got alongside, it is better to let him take the corner than hitiing him and taking both of you down the order. On the other hand, if the overtaker, realises that he hasn't done quite enough to take the position he should back off before it's too late and try again the next lap. If you can't pass the car in front safely, then don't. Even if the driver in front is slower, if you can't pass in a fair fight then you will just have to wait for a mistake which will allow you to slip through. A recent real life example of this would be Mika Hakkinen stuck behind Gaston Mazzacane at Indianapolis last year. Though the Mclaren was vastly superior, we didn't see the Finn driving into the back of the Argentinian when he realised he couldn't pass him. We all race GPL because it is the most realistic driving sim around, so why not add to the realism and try to think like real racing drivers do? This may seem like a big moan against all on-line drivers, but it's not. Most I race with in leagues are very good and careful. There are a few though who I think could be a bit more careful and considerate. Chris (Phew!) -- GPL FD League http://www.egroups.com/group/gplfd Simbok Racing www.geocities.com/simbokza Remove _your_clothes before replying

In article <949sr0$7na$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> We all race GPL because it is the most realistic driving sim around, so why > not add to the realism and try to think like real racing drivers do? > > This may seem like a big moan against all on-line drivers, but it's not. > Most I race with in leagues are very good and careful. There are a few > though who I think could be a bit more careful and considerate. > > Chris

I always take the view that if you're not on the front row of the grid, you're better off not setting a time, being at the back and waiting for the inevitable turn 1 carnage. Many's the time I've picked my way through the spinning, shooting cars to be in 4th at the end of the 1st lap. Rouen is particularly bad for 1st lap crashes, as is Watkins Glen, Nurburgring and a few others. - Michael

Chris Bloom wrote > I have noticed that there are several "typical" collisions that occur in > on-line GPL races. > > Start Line: Obviously this is the most difficult part of an on-line raceand > the best opportunity for a gigantic accident. I feel that alot of these > collisions could be avoided if the person behind kept a distance from the > guy in front and instead of trying crazy first corner out-breaking moves > just let the person to his side slot in front if he had managed to gethis > nose in-front. Agreed. > First Corner: If a miracle does occur and everyone gets away from thestart > okay, then the next canditate for a shunt is the first corner. At this > point in the race the tyres are still cold and you have very little cluehow > much room you need to brake. Best idea here is to give the guy in-front > room, brake early and try to keep on the racing line. I don't think so. Consider Monza. First one enters CG normal. Second one releases the throttle a bit earlier as usual. Third one notices this and touches the brake a bit. Fourth one is surprised by nr. 3 braking that early, has to hit the brakes harder. Fifth one will rear-end nr.4 and wonder why this stupid guy jumps on the brakes. (alternative: nr. 5 passes nr.4 and will mess up with no.3) IMHO nr.2 is to blame in this case. With nr.1 going into CG as usual, there is no need to slow down earlier. IMHO better: Brake as usual. (of course considering full fuel load and cold tires!!) > Many times I have > slowed as not to bump the guy in front at turn one and been rammed from > behind by someone else going full belt! Yup. Exactly. A guy in front of you thought, better slow down a bit earlier :( (otherwise you wouldnt have to slow down because of the guy in front of you but because of the corner you were approaching) > Sometimes I wonder if the person > behind was under the impression that the race results were based on his > position after turn one? Maybe he just feared to get rear ended if he brakes earlier than usual.. > We all race GPL because it is the most realistic driving sim around, sowhy > not add to the realism and try to think like real racing drivers do? Fully agreed. Ever seen <insert top driver of your choice here> slowing down earlier for turn one to give the guy in front some room? No way. Front wing almost under the engine of car ahead through first corner. Of course, this only works if everyone is braking at the same, usual spot.. (and this just works if everyone know this spot..) --> everyone should know where to slow down with cold tires and heavy fuel load. > This may seem like a big moan against all on-line drivers, but it's not. This may seem like a big moan against all on-line drivers who brake early, but it's not. Everyone who brakes early at least THINKS a bit and shows his respect to other drivers. And many times it works. It would always work, if driver nr. 2 above slows down a bit earlier, nr. 3 slows down TWO bits earlier, nr. 4 three bits... but if nr. 5 considers braking just one bit earlier, he will brake 2 bits too late - and no one can expect nr. 14 braking 13 bits earlier :( My conclusion: If you want to avoid crashes then 1. not braking earlier means, you have to trust everyone in front of you to do the same. 2. braking earlier means, you have to trust everyone behind you to do the same. That's really what I call a dilemma :-/ > Remove _your_clothes before replying done ;) Herbert PS: just in case this posting is unreadable, HTML, or bad format/headers: It is the first posting with a fresh installed MSIE, sorry about that. I guess, I got all the options right, but you never know ... its from M$ :(

"Calis" wrote > Ever seen <insert top driver of your choice here> slowing down earlier forturn one to give the guy in front some room? No way. Front wing almost under the engine of car ahead through first corner. Of course, this only works if everyone is braking at the same, usual spot.. (and this just works if everyone know this spot..) I don't think so... If you are travelling 2 feet behind the guy in front you have to brake when he brakes NOT your normal braking point ( a car's length plus 2 feet down the road if you brake in the saem place as him) - or you. Now add a queue of 5 cars and the guy at the back is braking 5 car lengths plus 10 feet for all to retain the 2 foot gaps. Now in reality there would be some "closure" under braking - e.g the gap goes down form 10 feet to 2 feet - but the same principal of braking earlier than normal applies. Check out the first corner of a GP and see where the guys at the back are coming to a near standstill - yards from any normal braking point. Also remeber the <insert top driver of your choice here> doesn't always judge how much earlier they have to brake when following close behind. Remember Senna vs Mansell at Australia, Senna vs Brundle at Monza, Hill vs Schumacher also at Monza. All guilty of rear ending the front guy when trying to run as close as possible behind the front guy and not braking early enough. Tony

"Chris Bloom" wrote > Many times I have slowed as not to bump the guy in front at turn one andbeen rammed from behind by someone else going full belt! How true. What amazes me is when I slow because cars are spinning ahead and get hit at full speed by the guy behind. Hasn't he seen the accident ahead? Maybe he has just watched Days of Thunder - and thinks he is Tom Cruise keeping his foot down through the tyre smoke and coming out victorious! Tony

"Tony Rickard" wrote > > I don't think so... > If you are travelling 2 feet behind the guy in front you have to brakewhen > he brakes NOT your normal braking point ( a car's length plus 2 feet down > the road if you brake in the saem place as him) - or you Hmmm, should say ...brake in the same place as him) - or you hit him Doh!

"Tony Rickard" wrote Hmmm, should say ...brake in the same place as him) - or you hit him Doh!

<snip> > How true. What amazes me is when I slow because cars are spinning aheadand > get hit at full speed by the guy behind. Hasn't he seen the accidentahead? <snip> This is the sad part. The guy behind may very well not have seen the accident in front, as GPL allows you to see only the 6 closest cars in front of you. In a tight starting grid, with 4 or 5 cars within a second, a start crash in front may come as a total surprise. Lesson 1: when qualifying at 6th or slower, you should do an easy start, as there may have been a crash in front of you that you cannot see until it's too late. Of course, the above applies to 8th and slower driver as well. ------- A friend of mine recently found a smart way of starting a N�rburgring race. Immediately after the start he raises his hand, indicating he has a problem, and pulls over. Then all the cars passes. Of course they crash in T1. Then my friend passes the wrecks, not being involved in the crashes, and gaines several positions. Jon Andersen

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> I don't think so. Consider Monza. First one enters CG normal. > Second one releases the throttle a bit earlier as usual. > Third one notices this and touches the brake a bit. > Fourth one is surprised by nr. 3 braking that early, has to hit the brakes > harder. > Fifth one will rear-end nr.4 and wonder why this stupid guy jumps > on the brakes. (alternative: nr. 5 passes nr.4 and will mess up with no.3) > > IMHO nr.2 is to blame in this case. With nr.1 going into CG as usual,

there > is no need to slow down earlier. > > IMHO better: Brake as usual. (of course considering full fuel load andcold > tires!!)<snip> I disagree. Nr 2 or nr 5 can very rarely be held responsible for nr 1's actions. Nr 5 has an opportunity to see what nr 1 is doing. Nr 1 cannot see what nr 5 is doing. Nr 5 should know this, and behave accordingly. The driver in front chooses his line. The drivers behind has to adapt, even if this means braking ealier than when doing hotlaps. Besides: If the driver behind thinks he is faster than the driver in front, he should know that he normally probably will brake later than the driver in front. If he brakes at his normal point, he will cause a T1 crash. Thus, he should brake earlier. If you are nr 5 at the grid: what makes you think that you can win by passing everyone at T1? Isn't it likely that the slow T1 entrance by the drivers in front is being done in an effort to prevent start crashes? If you pass, even without causing a crash, you are likely to be passed within a few laps. If you are significantly slower than the driver in front (0,5 seconds or more at a <1.30 min track), then don't even think of doing a T1 pass. Most likely you will cause a crash. If you don't cause a crash, you will be passed within 5 laps. Pay the proper respect to the qualifying times. Brake just a little bit earlier than usual. The the number of T1 crashes will decrease. Jon Andersen

In article <fx0a6.31757$[email hidden]>, "Calis" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Fully agreed. >Ever seen <insert top driver of your choice here> slowing down earlier for >turn one to give the guy in front some room? No way. Front wing >almost under the engine of car ahead through first corner. Of course, this >only works >if everyone is braking at the same, usual spot.. (and this just works if >everyone know this spot..) > >--> everyone should know where to slow down with cold tires and heavy fuel >load.

That will never happen on VROC. The skill levels are too widely spaced. For example, I've been in races at Silverstone where some drivers are as much as 4-5 seconds faster per lap. That means that they can get through the turns much faster than I can. If by some event I end up in FRONT of one of them, I'm going to be braking much earlier than them, just to keep my car on the track. As a result, I usually get rear-ended. Some would say it's my fault for braking 'early'. Hey, I'm just slowing do at the point where I NEED to in order to make the corner. I still say it's the following drivers fault. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL F1 hcp. +28.80...F2 +151.26...F3 hcp. +373.73 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Agree. Always the following/faster drivers fault, IMO. Following driver has the visibility, faster driver has the better car control. If the two combine the burden of guilt doubles, supposing the slower / preceding driver made an effort to be predictable. I suggest people try racing mixed classes some time (F1/F2 for example) to practise _patience_. Fast drivers should recognise that at the majority of corners a passing manouvre against a slower/less capable driver is just not "on". Hint: they are the same as the corners where a move on a nearly equally fast / competent driver is not an option. Jan. =--- EldredP wrote...

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> <snip> > That will never happen on VROC. The skill levels are too > widely spaced. For example, I've been in races at > Silverstone where some drivers are as much as 4-5 seconds > faster per lap. That means that they can get through the > turns much faster than I can. If by some event I end up > in FRONT of one of them, I'm going to be braking much > earlier than them, just to keep my car on the track. As a > result, I usually get rear-ended. Some would say it's my > fault for braking 'early'. Hey, I'm just slowing do at the > point where I NEED to in order to make the corner. I still > say it's the following drivers fault.

I got my one and only win on vroc during a short pro race at Monza. I'm rarely off the back row after qualifying and in this particular full grid race I was on the back row. The flag dropped , I took a leisurly pace through t1 only to be confronted with a massive pile up at T2 ,Slowing down to 30 mph I weaved through the carnage and continued a few laps with only 3 others left in the field. text messages at the top of the screen informed me that a shunt had occurred ahead, they soon disconnected. So there was only me and one other driver left in the race. On the penultimate lap the other driver appeared in my mirrors coming up fast to lap me as i approached parabolica. Me being the slow driver that I am, braked early, the other racer rear ended me and flipped over. Miraculously, my lotus spun but escaped unscathed and so I took the solitary win. Another tortoise and the hare(s) tale? Maybe . I felt elated when I saw the chequered flag and realised I had won my first race But somehow after seeing the results table did feel a little dissapointed that I won by other peoples mistakes and not by my own guile and skill at the wheel . I always felt that the fable by Aesop was a bit lame and whenever I heard it as a kid . I always wanted the hare to win.

Jon Andersen wrote: > <snip><snip!>

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> > If you are significantly slower than the driver in front (0,5 seconds or > more at a <1.30 min track), then don't even think of doing a T1 pass. Most > likely you will cause a crash. If you don't cause a crash, you will be > passed within 5 laps. > > Pay the proper respect to the qualifying times. Brake just a little bit > earlier than usual. The the number of T1 crashes will decrease. >

Jon, One of the problems, as I experience it, is that some hotlappers can't be bothered to qualify. They just come along in their Loti at the last second and try to gain positions on lap 1. If that fails, they just disco having ruined the race for several others. They also enjoy ramming you on the grid by going at the drop of the flag instead of waiting for the car ahead of them to move. Sad but true. Jens

[email hidden] (Calis) wrote in <fx0a6.31757$[email hidden]>: >Chris Bloom wrote<snip>

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>> First Corner: If a miracle does occur and everyone gets away from the >start >> okay, then the next canditate for a shunt is the first corner. At >> this point in the race the tyres are still cold and you have very >> little clue >how >> much room you need to brake. Best idea here is to give the guy >> in-front room, brake early and try to keep on the racing line. > >I don't think so. Consider Monza. First one enters CG normal. >Second one releases the throttle a bit earlier as usual. >Third one notices this and touches the brake a bit. >Fourth one is surprised by nr. 3 braking that early, has to hit the >brakes harder. >Fifth one will rear-end nr.4 and wonder why this stupid guy jumps >on the brakes. (alternative: nr. 5 passes nr.4 and will mess up with >no.3) > >IMHO nr.2 is to blame in this case. With nr.1 going into CG as usual, >there is no need to slow down earlier. > >IMHO better: Brake as usual. (of course considering full fuel load and >cold tires!!) >

I can't agree with that. First, on the first lap you don't know exactly where the guy ahead normally brakes (if he does). You need to leave some room to have enough time to react in the worst case. Second, when there's a relatively slow corner ahead, you can't brake at normal point if you're close behind, because the time gap that is enough at high speed is not sufficient at low speed. So you have to brake earlier. And if you're in 10th position you have to brake much earlier than if you're in 4th position, because of the same effect. When both are in effect together one has to brake really early:> Alex (alexti) P.S. I am making assumption that there're sensible drivers around you.

Chris Bloom <[email hidden]> wrote on 19 Jan 2001:

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>I have noticed that there are several "typical" collisions that >occur in on-line GPL races. > >Start Line: Obviously this is the most difficult part of an on-line >race and the best opportunity for a gigantic accident. I feel that >alot of these collisions could be avoided if the person behind kept >a distance from the guy in front and instead of trying crazy first >corner out-breaking moves just let the person to his side slot in >front if he had managed to get his nose in-front.

Obvious in principle, but not so easy in practice. The trouble is that making a clean, smooth start in GPL is very hard indeed - it's all too easy to drop the revs at just the wrong time, be slow getting underway, and get Surtees'd by the car behind, who *has* made a good start. You might say that the person behind should be watching, and again you'd be right in principle, but they've got very limited room for manoeuvre (swerving would inevitably cause a crash, as would stamping on the brakes), and need to react in a split second. Even real-life F1 drivers can't always do it - which is why everyone's so frightened when a car stalls on the grid. Witness poor Riccardo Paletti in 1982 who was killed in just such a crash.

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>First Corner: If a miracle does occur and everyone gets away from >the start okay, then the next canditate for a shunt is the first >corner. At this point in the race the tyres are still cold and you >have very little clue how much room you need to brake. Best idea >here is to give the guy in-front room, brake early and try to keep >on the racing line. Many times I have slowed as not to bump the guy >in front at turn one and been rammed from behind by someone else >going full belt! Sometimes I wonder if the person behind was under >the impression that the race results were based on his position >after turn one?

Not sure I entirely agree here. If the car in front of you slows into the corner, the only sensible course of action is for you to brake as well. It's (in general) up to the car behind to decide for themself how to react to *your* actions. Take Watkins Glen as an example - if everyone went at full pelt through the esses there'd almost certainly be a huge smash. Just holding back slightly is usually safer. >First Lap: Tyres are still cold and drivers are unsure of the cars >performance abilities on full tanks. Passing is a much more >dangerous prospect when the driver is not in total control of his >own vehicle. Agreed here. Overtaking on lap one is always a risky business - it's not a good idea in most circumstances. There's much more to be gained by sitting in the "queue" for a lap, observing other drivers' styles. >The fast guy who is involved in an early race crash and is storming >through the field<snip>

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>I get the impression that some of these drivers think they have some >right to be at the front of the field and instead of waiting for a >convenient opportunity to pass a slower car will make a wild >overtaking move as soon as they are in shooting range of the chap in >front. This undoubtedly ends in tears as the driver in front quite >rightly is not expecting such a stupid move and quite rightly feels >that he has every right to defend his position.

<snip> Again, I agree with you. There's no excuse for deliberately putting the frighteners on someone you're trying to pass (as opposed to legitimately putting pressure on them by sitting behind them lap after lap and waiting for a mistake - which is a very effective tactic). It's not at all easy for a slower driver to decide what to do if a faster driver comes up behind. Generally, I think one should stay on the racing line, but just ease off a little on the straights if you want to let someone through, but there needs to be some kind of "understanding" with the other bloke, which isn't always easy to achieve. >Assess the situation. If you catch a slower car, don't try and pass >as soon as you have caught up. Follow giving yourself some space >for a lap or two and see if you can work out where the person in >front may be a bit slower so the next lap you can get yourself into >position to try and get past at that point. Also try and consider >if it is a safe passing point. I think "a lap or two" is possibly overdoing it - remember that an Int Short race (the most common on VROC) is only 11 laps at Monza, and just 5 at Spa! It's certainly a good idea to follow them for a while, though, just to see if *they* are in enough control of the car for you to get past safely - you don't want them to slew into you because they're having trouble keeping the car going straight! >Don't fight for the corner if there is no hope of winning it. If >the person following you has got alongside, it is better to let him >take the corner than hitiing him and taking both of you down the >order. On the other hand, if the overtaker, realises that he hasn't >done quite enough to take the position he should back off before >it's too late and try again the next lap. This is one of the hardest things to get right, and you're quite right that coming out of a corner second is better than not coming out of it at all. In the thick of battle, though, a lot of heads get hotter than they should, so occasionally it's actually safer to get out of the other bloke's way before they do something stupid! >If you can't pass the car in front safely, then don't. Even if the >driver in front is slower, if you can't pass in a fair fight then >you will just have to wait for a mistake which will allow you to >slip through.<snip> Right. And if you're filling their mirrors for lap after lap, there's every chance they're going to get worried, and make an error. Then you can overtake, and thumb your virtual nose at them <g>. -- David. (GPLRank handicap: -5.92) The GPL Scrapyard - http://scrapyard.netcabins.com "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh.

I have always been of the opinion that it is the following drivers responsibility not to hit the guy in front and not vice versa. Chris -- GPL FD League http://www.egroups.com/group/gplfd Simbok Racing www.geocities.com/simbokza Remove _your_clothes before replying "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I've been in races at Silverstone where some drivers are as much as > 4-5 seconds faster per lap. That means that they can get through the turns > much faster than I can. If by some event I end up in FRONT of one of them, I'm > going to be braking much earlier than them, just to keep my car on the track. > As a result, I usually get rear-ended. Some would say it's my fault for > braking 'early'. Hey, I'm just slowing do at the point where I NEED to in > order to make the corner. I still say it's the following drivers fault. > > Eldred > -- > Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPL F1 hcp. +28.80...F2 +151.26...F3 hcp. +373.73 >

Hi, Don't be dissapointed in a win like that, as you proved you were the best driver on the day. Congrats on your first VROC win too, with an attitude like you have, i am sure you will have many more. Well done... Cheers, Ron Semi <[email hidden]> wrote in article <94al2f$ehu$[email hidden]>... > I got my one and only win on vroc during a short pro race at Monza. > I'm rarely off the back row after qualifying and in this particularfull > grid race I was on the back row. The flag dropped , I took a leisurlypace > through t1 only to be confronted with a massive pile up at T2,Slowing down > to 30 mph I weaved through the carnage and continued a few laps withonly 3 > others left in the field. > text messages at the top of the screen informed me that a shunt hadoccurred > ahead, they soon disconnected. So there was only me and one otherdriver > left in the race. > On the penultimate lap the other driver appeared in my mirrorscoming up > fast to lap me as i approached parabolica. Me being the slow driverthat I > am, braked early, the other racer rear ended me and flipped over. > Miraculously, my lotus spun but escaped unscathed and so I took thesolitary > win. > Another tortoise and the hare(s) tale? Maybe . > I felt elated when I saw the chequered flag and realised I had won myfirst > race > But somehow after seeing the results table did feel a littledissapointed > that I won by other peoples mistakes and not by my own guile andskill at > the wheel . > I always felt that the fable by Aesop was a bit lame and whenever Iheard

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> it as a kid . > > I always wanted the hare to win. > > > > > >

In article <0h3a6.216$[email hidden]>, "Jon Andersen" <[email hidden]> writes: >A friend of mine recently found a smart way of starting a N�rburgring race. >Immediately after the start he raises his hand, indicating he has a problem, >and pulls over. Then all the cars passes. Of course they crash in T1. Then >my friend passes the wrecks, not being involved in the crashes, and gaines >several positions. > Or, just start at the back... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL F1 hcp. +28.80...F2 +151.26...F3 hcp. +373.73 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Alex) writes:

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>I can't agree with that. First, on the first lap you don't know >exactly where the guy ahead normally brakes (if he does). You need >to leave some room to have enough time to react in the worst case. >Second, when there's a relatively slow corner ahead, you can't brake >at normal point if you're close behind, because the time gap that is >enough at high speed is not sufficient at low speed. So you have to >brake earlier. And if you're in 10th position you have to brake >much earlier than if you're in 4th position, because of the same >effect. When both are in effect together one has to brake really >early:> > >Alex >(alexti) > >P.S. I am making assumption that there're sensible drivers >around you.

Problem is, there usually AREN'T. That's why I rarely run pickup races. The only way you can try to avoid the crashes is to qualify on pole, or be so much slower than everyone else. For me, the first one is impossible, and the second is BORING(driving around by yourself). Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL F1 hcp. +28.80...F2 +151.26...F3 hcp. +373.73 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Jon Andersen <[email hidden]> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag: 9E3a6.219$[email hidden]... > > IMHO better: Brake as usual. (of course considering full fuel load andcold tires!!) > I disagree....<snip> > If you are nr 5 at the grid: what makes you think that you can win by > passing everyone at T1? Isn't it likely that the slow T1 entrance by the > drivers in front is being done in an effort to prevent start crashes? Ifyou > pass, even without causing a crash, you are likely to be passed within afew > laps. > If you are significantly slower than the driver in front (0,5 seconds or > more at a <1.30 min track), then don't even think of doing a T1 pass. Most > likely you will cause a crash. If you don't cause a crash, you will be > passed within 5 laps. I never suggested to make T1 passes. This would be plain stupid. > Pay the proper respect to the qualifying times. Brake just a little bit > earlier than usual. The the number of T1 crashes will decrease. I agree with you that one might have to brake earlier than usual if there are cars immediatly in front (it's plain physics). But the closer one gets to the car in front, the better for the cars following.. BTW: Up to now, I have never rearended or tried to pass anyone in T1.. (except passing a lot of wrecks rolling through the gravel, of course ;) Have fun.. Herbert

I have found that at nose to tail distances, not following immediately behind someone when approaching a turn is the best course of action. -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) http://www.paddedwall.org/john Barbarian Diecast Collector (420+ cars and counting) http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast DeMONS Scheduler for N3 and NL http://www.paddedwall.org/demons IGPS/3 Home Page http://www.paddedwall.org/igps3 If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

In article <01c082e1$1d38fb60$243e36cb@ronayton>, "Ron Ayton" <[email hidden]> writes: >Hi, > >Don't be dissapointed in a win like that, as you proved you were the >best driver on the day. A win because everyone else disco'd? That doesn't mean you're the best driver. It just means that you had the most time to kill... I agree with him, it's an empty victory. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL F1 hcp. +28.80...F2 +151.26...F3 hcp. +373.73 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EldredP wrote:

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> In article <01c082e1$1d38fb60$243e36cb@ronayton>, "Ron Ayton" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >> Hi, >> >> Don't be dissapointed in a win like that, as you proved you were the >> best driver on the day. > > > A win because everyone else disco'd? That doesn't mean you're the best driver. > It just means that you had the most time to kill... > I agree with him, it's an empty victory. >

Sorry Eldred, but I have to side with Ron on this issue. I still cherish my GP win even if only two drivers went the distance. Speed is only good if it is sustained or useful speed. As far as I know lots of real races are won by guys because the leaders had various problems with their gear or endurance. You could argue that the others guys didn't have the WILL to win. And I'm confident that many of them have never even won a single long race with that kind of attitude. Cheers, Jens

EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote in article <[email hidden]>... > > A win because everyone else disco'd? That doesn't mean you're thebest driver. > It just means that you had the most time to kill... > I agree with him, it's an empty victory. > > Eldred > -- Hi Eldred, I seem to be disagreeing with everyone lately. :) If the guys that discoed, discoed from poor connections, then i would agree with you, to a certain extent, but in Semi's post, he stated that the guys that discoed "crashed", THEN they discoed, and others simply couldn't keep their cars on the road, and drive at a sensible pace to complete the race, where Semi did both of those things, so deserved the win. That says to me, that Semi was more sensible than most of the guys that crashed and discoed, and also had a greater will to take advantage of a common happening in motor racing, sim or real.. I much prefer racing against drivers of Semi's mind set, than the crash, burn & disco types, anyday of the week.. The first win on VROC is always a mile stone... Well done Semi, you deserved it. Cheers, Ron

In article <[email hidden]>, "Jens H. Kruuse" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Sorry Eldred, but I have to side with Ron on this issue. I still cherish my >GP win even if only two drivers went the distance. Speed is only good if it >is sustained or useful speed. As far as I know lots of real races are won by >guys because the leaders had various problems with their gear or endurance. > >You could argue that the others guys didn't have the WILL to win. And >I'm confident that many of them have never even won a single long race >with that kind of attitude.

I think a GP race is much different. People enter it with the mindset that it's a fight 'to the finish'. They're not going to drop out just because they have no chance of winning. In a GP race, anything can happen, and the participants KNOW that. So yes, you EARNED that win - well done! It's not the same in a quick race at Monza. The mindset is much different - they're here for a quick thrill. When the possibilty of winning is gone, so are they. They run off to join another race. If I'm the last man standing because everyone bailed after 4 or 5 laps, that does NOT mean I'm the best driver in that race. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL F1 hcp. +28.80...F2 +151.26...F3 hcp. +373.73 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EldredP wrote:

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> In article <[email hidden]>, "Jens H. Kruuse" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >> Sorry Eldred, but I have to side with Ron on this issue. I still cherish my >> GP win even if only two drivers went the distance. Speed is only good if it >> is sustained or useful speed. As far as I know lots of real races are won by >> guys because the leaders had various problems with their gear or endurance. >> >> You could argue that the others guys didn't have the WILL to win. And >> I'm confident that many of them have never even won a single long race >> with that kind of attitude. > > > I think a GP race is much different. People enter it with the mindset that > it's a fight 'to the finish'. They're not going to drop out just because they > have no chance of winning. In a GP race, anything can happen, and the > participants KNOW that. So yes, you EARNED that win - well done! > It's not the same in a quick race at Monza. The mindset is much different - > they're here for a quick thrill. When the possibilty of winning is gone, so > are they. They run off to join another race. If I'm the last man standing > because everyone bailed after 4 or 5 laps, that does NOT mean I'm the best > driver in that race. >

According to Carroll Smith, you are. :-) I can't find the quote right now, but he mentions something about all the drivers at a given level being pretty much equally talented with the stronger will winning the race. And yes, I know it's a bit different in GPL - we are not all equally talented. I think the principle still applies. Jens

Ron Ayton wrote: > > I seem to be disagreeing with everyone lately. :) > Not me. I mean, not right now. :-) > The first win on VROC is always a mile stone... > Well done Semi, you deserved it. > You certainly did, Semi. Well done! According to your race report, the guy who flipped on the penultimate lap didn't have the common sense to win. Thus he didn't deserve it. Cheers, Jens

> Also remeber the <insert top driver of your choice here> doesn't always > judge how much earlier they have to brake when following close behind. > Remember Senna vs Mansell at Australia, Senna vs Brundle at Monza, Hill vs > Schumacher also at Monza. All guilty of rear ending the front guy when > trying to run as close as possible behind the front guy and not braking > early enough. Bear in mind of course that Senna deliberately drove into Mansell just after he'd been lapped, as it was his last chance to affect the outcome of the race. Mansell had to brake heavily for the chicane, so it was an ideal opportunity. Of course I could be wrong, and maybe Senna was just an incompetent driver... well, what do you think? ;-)

> I agree with you that one might have to brake earlier than usual if there > are cars immediatly in front (it's plain physics). But the closer one gets > to the car in front, the better for the cars following.. I really think you will have to think again about this - it simply does not work, unless everyone has unbelievably fast reactions. If you look at the AI, or at a real race for that matter, the guys at the back basically have to stop and queue up for T1, as Tony Rickard has already said. It's not too dissimilar from driving on public roads - the guy behind has a duty not to rear-end the guy in front, regardless of how slowly he goes, and certainly not if he can predict that the guy in front will have to slow down, as in this case.

In article <0h3a6.216$[email hidden]>, "Jon Andersen" <[email hidden]> writes:

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> > A friend of mine recently found a smart way of starting a N�rburgring race. > Immediately after the start he raises his hand, indicating he has a problem, > and pulls over. Then all the cars passes. Of course they crash in T1. Then > my friend passes the wrecks, not being involved in the crashes, and gaines > several positions. >

This sort of strategy can work nearly anywhere, not just at the ring. I was recently in a VROC pickup race at Watkins Glen with a full grid, where I joined late, and didn't get a chance to qualify. Thus I started from the back. Everyone made it through the esses, amazingly enough, and then literally half the field went off over the outside embankment at the entrance to the Loop. I was in 9th, from 18th, after the first lap. Marc

I was referring to Adelaide 92. Senna & Mansell were racing for position. A potential great battle ended early (lap 18). Davy Jones referred to the incident "I wonder if his (Senna's) thinking in a race isn't so far advanced that his mind is not relating to the incident that's actually happening. Maybe if Nigel lifted a bit early, Ayrton just wasn't prepared for it, because his mind was already two or three corners ahead. You know, when you take a corner, your mind goes to the turn-in, then to the apex, then the exit. You're always a step ahead of what you're actually doing. But maybe Senna is always three steps ahead. Maybe that was it. And maybe that's why he's such a great champion." So what chance have we lesser beings on VROC? "Neil Raine" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:RAFa6.51447$[email hidden]... > > Also remeber the <insert top driver of your choice here> doesn't always > > judge how much earlier they have to brake when following close behind. > > Remember Senna vs Mansell at Australia, Senna vs Brundle at Monza, Hillvs > > Schumacher also at Monza. All guilty of rear ending the front guy when > > trying to run as close as possible behind the front guy and not braking > > early enough. > > Bear in mind of course that Senna deliberately drove into Mansell justafter

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> he'd been lapped, as it was his last chance to affect the outcome of the > race. > > Mansell had to brake heavily for the chicane, so it was an ideal > opportunity. > > Of course I could be wrong, and maybe Senna was just an incompetent > driver... well, what do you think? ;-) > > > >

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (EldredP) writes: >I think a GP race is much different. People enter it with the mindset that >it's a fight 'to the finish'. They're not going to drop out just because >they >have no chance of winning. In a GP race, anything can happen, and the >participants KNOW that. I guess I have to retract this, huh? I dropped out of the GP race today, and conceded the win. I knew I couldn't catch Carlo UNLESS he crashed, and we were the only 2 left...<sulks in shame> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL F1 hcp. +28.80...F2 +151.26...F3 hcp. +373.73 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <01c08343$98792ea0$694336cb@ronayton>, "Ron Ayton" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Hi Eldred, > >I seem to be disagreeing with everyone lately. :) >If the guys that discoed, discoed from poor connections, then i would >agree with you, to a certain extent, but in Semi's post, he stated >that the guys that discoed "crashed", THEN they discoed, and others >simply couldn't keep their cars on the road, and drive at a sensible >pace to complete the race, where Semi did both of those things, so >deserved the win.

This is how I'm usually the last car running. I'm not fast enough to keep up with the drivers who are still left. The only ones I beat are the ones who disco... I wish there was a different message for a accidental disco vs. a deliberate one... >That says to me, that Semi was more sensible than most of the guys that >crashed and discoed, and also had a greater will to take advantage of a >common happening in motor racing, sim or real.. >I much prefer racing against drivers of Semi's mind set, than the >crash, burn & disco types, anyday of the week.. >I do to, but they're few and far between... :( >The first win on VROC is always a mile stone... >Well done Semi, you deserved it. I think I've won ONE race - Monza. Basically, because everyone who was faster disco'd. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL F1 hcp. +28.80...F2 +151.26...F3 hcp. +373.73 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EldredP wrote: > The only way you can try to avoid the crashes is to qualify on pole, I've had pole twice so far, at Monza and Spa. Both races I was taken out at turn 1 by some flaming idiot. Of course I had to wait for the entire field to go by before I could reset...screw that. Neither one of those corners is good for passing, but the brain damaged insist on stuffing it in there anyway. Gary

Chris Bloom wrote: > > I have always been of the opinion that it is the following drivers > responsibility not to hit the guy in front and not vice versa. I agree!

I think the fact that Mansell had won the first 5 races of the season and was threatening to beat Ayrton's record might have had something to do with his thinking... "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aFGa6.18750$[email hidden]... > I was referring to Adelaide 92. Senna & Mansell were racing for position.A > potential great battle ended early (lap 18). > > Davy Jones referred to the incident > > "I wonder if his (Senna's) thinking in a race isn't so far advanced thathis > mind is not relating to the incident that's actually happening. Maybe if > Nigel lifted a bit early, Ayrton just wasn't prepared for it, because his > mind was already two or three corners ahead. You know, when you take a > corner, your mind goes to the turn-in, then to the apex, then the exit. > You're always a step ahead of what you're actually doing. But maybe Sennais > always three steps ahead. Maybe that was it. And maybe that's why he'ssuch

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> a great champion." > > So what chance have we lesser beings on VROC? > > "Neil Raine" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:RAFa6.51447$[email hidden]... > > > Also remeber the <insert top driver of your choice here> doesn't

always > > > judge how much earlier they have to brake when following close behind. > > > Remember Senna vs Mansell at Australia, Senna vs Brundle at Monza,Hill > vs > > > Schumacher also at Monza. All guilty of rear ending the front guy when > > > trying to run as close as possible behind the front guy and notbraking

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> > > early enough. > > > > Bear in mind of course that Senna deliberately drove into Mansell just > after > > he'd been lapped, as it was his last chance to affect the outcome of the > > race. > > > > Mansell had to brake heavily for the chicane, so it was an ideal > > opportunity. > > > > Of course I could be wrong, and maybe Senna was just an incompetent > > driver... well, what do you think? ;-) > > > > > > > > > >

EldredP wrote:

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> In article <[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] (EldredP) writes: > >> I think a GP race is much different. People enter it with the mindset that >> it's a fight 'to the finish'. They're not going to drop out just because >> they >> have no chance of winning. In a GP race, anything can happen, and the >> participants KNOW that. > > I guess I have to retract this, huh? I dropped out of the GP race today, and > conceded the win. I knew I couldn't catch Carlo UNLESS he crashed, and we were > the only 2 left...<sulks in shame> >

Now, now. Don't be ashamed of yourself. <Pats Eldred on the back.> You were hit at the start and went on to complete half the race instead of quitting or crashing in frustration. Actually, I did wonder about your deliberate disco, but I spent more time thinking about Jan V. Do you realize that he has a different finishing spot in each GP? And he has already covered 1-4? A bleak future for our friend is in the cards. You should be annoyed at yourself, however. Even without crashing, Carlo could have been caught between the horns of an awful dilemma: Relieve himself in or away from the chair? Something you should always keep in mind in a 2 hour race. Cheers, Jens

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (David Buttery) wrote: > Chris Bloom <[email hidden]> wrote on 19 Jan 2001: > > >I have noticed that there are several "typical" collisions that > >occur in on-line GPL races. > >jeez guys.....you dont win the race at turn 1.....you have to be in it to win it. The problem is that vroc drivers have wildly different perceptions of what is happening in front of them due to lag/latency etc. It would take the co-operation of all drivers in a race to "take it easy" thru T1 to get a full race going....I dont think I can remember being in a full race at the end of lap 1 yet! Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

Jens H. Kruuse wrote... > EldredP wrote: > <snip> > Now, now. Don't be ashamed of yourself. <Pats Eldred on the > back.> You were hit at the start and went on to complete > half the race instead of quitting or crashing in frustration. Yeah, he was doing pretty well. Too bad about 70% of the drivers present on the day werent up to the challenge. I think the field was reduced to 5 or 6 within the distance of an int short... pitifull really. Or maybe most of them hadn't payed attention and only found out it was a GP when they tried to hit shift-r? BTW, Eldred: what was waving me through all about in the beginning of the race? Surely, you're not *that* paranoid about getting hit and give up without even trying to defend your line? > Actually, I did wonder about your deliberate disco, but I > spent more time thinking about Jan V. Do you realize that > he has a different finishing spot in each GP? And he has > already covered 1-4? A bleak future for our friend is in > the cards. To quote the great Fangio: "Superstition has no place in a racer's mind." Besides... 2, 1, 3, 4: I don't see a real pattern emerging.<g> I might have gotten 2nd or better in this last one had the Maserati held together. Pretty weird, it just faltered and let go at about 6000rpm out of Clubhouse. Haven't watched a replay yet, but I'm pretty sure I didn't treat my engine disrespectfully, much. And even it were to go downhill from here on in... (as it should if more people finish them GP's), I don't think even coming in 17th out of 19 runners, 3 laps down or somesuch after an online GP could wipe that sense of accomplishment and ear-to-ear grin away. > You should be annoyed at yourself, however. Even without > crashing, Carlo could have been caught between the horns > of an awful dilemma: Relieve himself in or away from the > chair? Something you should always keep in mind in a 2 > hour race. LOL.... sick Jens, very sick. ;-)) > > Cheers, > Jens >

True - though there is a debate as to whether it was Senna's fault: Personal observations of Senna by Xtra Motoring Magazine contributor Gavin Dawson "The telemetry told the the final story in the end with Mansell. Adelaide 1992 should have been a true fight of Senna & Mansell but the Brit's not inconsiderable nerve cracked & he made a mistake leading to the demise of both them." Though this does seem a shade biased :-) Tony "Neil Raine" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8JTa6.188140$[email hidden]... > I think the fact that Mansell had won the first 5 races of the season and > was threatening to beat Ayrton's record might have had something to dowith > his thinking... > > "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:aFGa6.18750$[email hidden]... > > I was referring to Adelaide 92. Senna & Mansell were racing forposition. > A > > potential great battle ended early (lap 18).

[email hidden] (EldredP) wrote in <[email hidden]>: >In article <01c08343$98792ea0$694336cb@ronayton>, "Ron Ayton" ><[email hidden]> writes: <snip> >This is how I'm usually the last car running. I'm not fast enough toI would choose to be last running over the first DNF any day of week:>

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>keep up with the drivers who are still left. The only ones I beat are >the ones who disco... I wish there was a different message for a >accidental disco vs. a deliberate one... > >>That says to me, that Semi was more sensible than most of the guys that >>crashed and discoed, and also had a greater will to take advantage of a >>common happening in motor racing, sim or real.. >>I much prefer racing against drivers of Semi's mind set, than the >>crash, burn & disco types, anyday of the week.. >> >I do to, but they're few and far between... :(

Same here, but I think there are plenty of them, but always there are few mindless drivers that can destroy race for everybody else. Alex (alexti)

In article <[email hidden]>, Alex <[email hidden]> writes

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>[email hidden] (Calis) wrote in ><fx0a6.31757$[email hidden]>: > >>Chris Bloom wrote ><snip> >>> First Corner: If a miracle does occur and everyone gets away from the >>start >>> okay, then the next canditate for a shunt is the first corner. At >>> this point in the race the tyres are still cold and you have very >>> little clue >>how >>> much room you need to brake. Best idea here is to give the guy >>> in-front room, brake early and try to keep on the racing line. >> >>I don't think so. Consider Monza. First one enters CG normal. >>Second one releases the throttle a bit earlier as usual. >>Third one notices this and touches the brake a bit. >>Fourth one is surprised by nr. 3 braking that early, has to hit the >>brakes harder. >>Fifth one will rear-end nr.4 and wonder why this stupid guy jumps >>on the brakes. (alternative: nr. 5 passes nr.4 and will mess up with >>no.3) >> >>IMHO nr.2 is to blame in this case. With nr.1 going into CG as usual, >>there is no need to slow down earlier. >> >>IMHO better: Brake as usual. (of course considering full fuel load and >>cold tires!!) >> >I can't agree with that. First, on the first lap you don't know >exactly where the guy ahead normally brakes (if he does). You need >to leave some room to have enough time to react in the worst case. >Second, when there's a relatively slow corner ahead, you can't brake >at normal point if you're close behind, because the time gap that is >enough at high speed is not sufficient at low speed. So you have to >brake earlier. And if you're in 10th position you have to brake >much earlier than if you're in 4th position, because of the same >effect. When both are in effect together one has to brake really >early:> >

When it comes to turn 1 braking - or any potential braking to overtake manoeuvre for that matter - then various things need to be taken into consideration. Obviously at the start of the race there are a lot more things to take into consideration than say later on in a race when it will probably be just you and another driver who are fighting for the corner and so there is a lot more potential for accidents/collisions to happen because everyone is trying to keep their attention on 2 or 3 different things at once. When people talk about 'braking earlier' as such, I'm not sure that I would entirely advocate this policy, especially if it is going to entail the driver, although braking earlier, still braking at his/her usual rate. I believe this still leaves plenty of potential for accidents. If a car is in front of me coming towards the first corner then I need to consider various things - probably in this order: 1) Do I think that I can make an overtaking opportunity at such an early stage? Almost certainly this is going to have been decided first and hopefully long before the corner arrives, based upon relative speeds. If I don't think I'm closing fast enough to get past - not just my nose alongside - before the corner arrives then don't even think about. 2) Am I going to have to slow up earlier than I would normally for the corner in order to ensure that I do not collide with the car in front? Once decision (1) has been made then (2) should also have been decided as early as possible before the braking area for the corner arrives and should definitely not be one of those play-it-by-ear decisions - once decided then stick to it no matter what the driver in front does even if it could cost a place or 2 - unless you have no choice and are trying to avoid contact of course. I normally have my mind made up on this one early as in 'Ok, I'm way too close. Better give this guy some room under braking. Let's not be silly here.' What I prefer to do if I am too close is actually let off the throttle perhaps 2 or 3 seconds before I would come to my normal braking point, which should lengthen the gap between me and the driver in front by a safe enough margin to allow me time and room to make any adjustments into the corner, and then - if he is pretty good and brakes where I expected him too - I can brake, but not as hard as normal so that I can close up under braking into the corner. If he does brake that little bit harder or earlier then so can I also. 3) Can I take my normal line through the corner or am I going to take a more defensive line because of someone in my mirrors who I believe may well be considering some 'do or die' early dive on my inside, and have I left it too late to change my current line to a more defensive one which could result in the car behind not having enough time to adjust his line/braking to avoid a collision? If there is a car in this situation and I've got the time then I will move to the inside and, still taking (2) into consideration, will slow up for the corner appropriately. Hopefully, because I am now in his line, he will be a little more careful about where he decides to brake and doesn't rear-end me. No guarantee here but, if he is thinking the same way as me then he will already be off the accelerator early and given me and him enough room to allow for him to close up under braking and to prevent anyone who may be on his outside from trying to slip into any temporary gap that may have existed for those few seconds as he eased off just before braking. If I feel the driver is already too close for me to change my line then I will happily yield, holding my line and easing off earlier than usual depending on decision no. (2) I'm not saying I've always thought this way and that I always practice what I preach, but for me it's a good starting point and, if other drivers could think this way then it's possible that there would be fewer T1 accidents. Then again... :) Ok, that gets us into T1 perhaps a little bit more cleanly, now what about the exit... hehe. -- Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying No person's opinions can be said to be more correct than another's, because each is the sole judge of his or her own experience.

[email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: > I wish there was a different message for a accidental > disco vs. a deliberate one It's no good for us in GPL, but I was pleased to see Papyrus have added this to N4. Andrew McP

Actually I was referring to a different race - I didn't see the one at Adelaide. All I remember was that in the race I'm thinking of, Senna had just been lapped, and managed to punt Mansell as he entered the next chicane. Mansell got a lot of stick from the British press for suggesting that it might not have been an accident, but then again they always did hate him for some reason! Typical British attitude - they can't stand a winner (unless he's from another country)! Apparently Mansell was also quite rude to the press as a rule, but then again who can blame him? "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:lC%a6.23078$[email hidden]...

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> True - though there is a debate as to whether it was Senna's fault: > > Personal observations of Senna by Xtra Motoring Magazine contributor Gavin > Dawson > > "The telemetry told the the final story in the end with Mansell. Adelaide > 1992 should have been a true fight of Senna & Mansell but the Brit's not > inconsiderable nerve cracked & he made a mistake leading to the demise of > both them." > > Though this does seem a shade biased :-) > > Tony > > "Neil Raine" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8JTa6.188140$[email hidden]... > > I think the fact that Mansell had won the first 5 races of the season

and

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> > was threatening to beat Ayrton's record might have had something to do > with > > his thinking... > > > > "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:aFGa6.18750$[email hidden]... > > > I was referring to Adelaide 92. Senna & Mansell were racing for > position. > > A > > > potential great battle ended early (lap 18). > > >

In article <94horg$q5q$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] writes:

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>jeez guys.....you dont win the race at turn 1.....you have to be in it >to win it. The problem is that vroc drivers have wildly different >perceptions of what is happening in front of them due to lag/latency >etc. >It would take the co-operation of all drivers in a race to "take it >easy" thru T1 to get a full race going....I dont think I can remember >being in a full race at the end of lap 1 yet!

Our GP Silverstone race went for at a few laps with 19 cars without a big wreck. The Zandy race was FAIRLY good for a couple... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL F1 hcp. +28.80...F2 +151.26...F3 hcp. +373.73 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Alex) writes: >I would choose to be last running over the first DNF any day >of week:> I do it all the time. It's over-rated...<g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL F1 hcp. +28.80...F2 +151.26...F3 hcp. +373.73 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Andrew MacPherson) writes:

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>[email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: > >> I wish there was a different message for a accidental >> disco vs. a deliberate one > >It's no good for us in GPL, but I was pleased to see Papyrus have added >this to N4.

They did? Cool! -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL F1 hcp. +28.80...F2 +151.26...F3 hcp. +373.73 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Jens H. Kruuse wrote... >> EldredP wrote: >> <snip> >> Now, now. Don't be ashamed of yourself. <Pats Eldred on the >> back.> You were hit at the start and went on to complete >> half the race instead of quitting or crashing in frustration. > >Yeah, he was doing pretty well. Too bad about 70% of the drivers present on >the day werent up to the challenge. I think the field was reduced to 5 or 6 >within the distance of an int short... pitifull really. Or maybe most of >them hadn't payed attention and only found out it was a GP when they tried >to hit shift-r? BTW, Eldred: what was waving me through all about in the >beginning of the race? Surely, you're not *that* paranoid about getting hit >and give up without even trying to defend your line?

At that point(and being hit at the start), yes I was. I didn't realize it was you until I saw the pit board the next lap. All I knew was that some fast car barrelling up on me. Next time, it won't be so easy, my friend...<g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL F1 hcp. +28.80...F2 +151.26...F3 hcp. +373.73 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, "Jens H. Kruuse" <[email hidden]> writes: >You should be annoyed at yourself, however. Even without crashing, Carlo >could have been caught between the horns of an awful dilemma: Relieve >himself in or away from the chair? Something you should always keep in >mind in a 2 hour race. > Like I said before, My concentration was gone. I was literally spinning or going off track every other lap. It was NOT pretty... :( Although I'm sure the crowd on the front stretch enjoyed my 'end-around' at 160 MPH<g> It was that lurid moment that told me I'd never be able to finish the race... Not enough sleep the night before - my fault. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL F1 hcp. +28.80...F2 +151.26...F3 hcp. +373.73 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EldredP wrote... > <snip> > At that point(and being hit at the start), yes I was. I > didn't realize it was you until I saw the pit board the > next lap. All I knew was that some fast car barrelling > up on me. You really should pay more attention the psychology of racing Eldred. At the top level (and GP's are the highest level in GPL) it's a thinking man's game. <thoughts during the race> My car handles pretty well on a full tank. I also know from experience the Ferrari can be tricky on a full tank. We are of similar skill level, so if I allow for the balance to shift in favour of the Ferrari (fuel is being burned off all the time) getting the position will be very hard. I have to get ahead of you *now*. Ok, so I need a plan... what does my car do better than yours? -Brakes, it's more stable under braking. Is this a good plan? -Yes, it is. Since we're on your server, I can be pretty sure of where you are. Ok, so I take a risk under braking for T1. -Whoah!! Did that ever work! Right on the gearbox and still able to take my usual apex. Ok, full concentration... stay there and nail him into Clubhouse. Huh? -he's pulling over... heh, scared him. I'll have that position anyway, thanks. <end thoughts during the race> Obviously this train of thought didn't include the unforced errors I was about to make and the engine blow-up later on, but when I race I try to keep my brain working. Either on working out ways of improving my chances of taking the next position up (when I'm chasing) or ways of building safeguards into my driving without losing a position (when I'm defending). Thinking on your feet and making good calls ultimately decides on winning or losing. It pays to practise this aspect as well as the turns themselves. Speaking of turns... read those Keith Code books I told you about yet? > Next time, it won't be so easy, my friend...<g> I'm not impressed. If you allow past accidents to weigh on your dealings with the next challenger, the outcome is a forgone conclusion. <vbg> Jan. =---

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > EldredP wrote... > > <> You really should pay more attention the psychology of racing Eldred.At the top level (and GP's are the highest level in GPL) it's a thinking man's > game. > > <thoughts during the race> the whistle blows...the conductor shouts...the wheels go round and round. the car goes round and round. toot toot....say lookee there, I never noticed that sign before.... and thats about it... dave henrie

[email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: > They did? Cool! I think they did anyway <g>. There's a standard disco message and a xx manually disco'd message. Andrew McP

A completely empty mind might work as well... better than have it drift to the items on the grocery list or how tall the lawn has grown anyway. ;-) Jan. =--- Dave Henrie wrote...

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> <snip> > <thoughts during the race> > the whistle blows...the conductor shouts...the wheels > go round and round. the car goes round and round. > toot toot....say lookee there, I never noticed that > sign before.... > <blank space snipped> > and thats about it... > > dave henrie

Jan Verschueren wrote:

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> <thoughts during the race> > My car handles pretty well on a full tank. I also know from experience the > Ferrari can be tricky on a full tank. We are of similar skill level, so if I > allow for the balance to shift in favour of the Ferrari (fuel is being > burned off all the time) getting the position will be very hard. I have to > get ahead of you *now*. Ok, so I need a plan... what does my car do better > than yours? -Brakes, it's more stable under braking. Is this a good > plan? -Yes, it is. Since we're on your server, I can be pretty sure of where > you are. Ok, so I take a risk under braking for T1. -Whoah!! Did that ever > work! Right on the gearbox and still able to take my usual apex. Ok, full > concentration... stay there and nail him into Clubhouse. > > Huh? -he's pulling over... heh, scared him. I'll have that position anyway, > thanks. > <end thoughts during the race> >

I have improved my racing (and even driving) tremendously recently mainly by thinking better. I need to get even better. Much better. I didn't think of this as a weakness before it was pointed out to me but it obviously is. I noticed that your train-of-though didn't include a single negative thought - that's what is so important. Always think about something "good" you're going to do. Brake right, turn right, catch the bugger, etc. During the Zandy GP I started having negative thoughts at the time when Jan was 25 secs with 20 laps to go. "Brake early, or you will spin." "Careful here or you won't be able to make the turn." Whammo! 20 secs down the drain when I spun! > I'm not impressed. If you allow past accidents to weigh on your dealings > with the next challenger, the outcome is a forgone conclusion. <vbg> > How true. Jens

I was in the middle of what felt like a really fast Silverstone lap and started thinking "wow this feels fast - if I don't screw up I'll probably set a PB". Sure enough, I went wide on the last left before the front straight and threw the lap away (: "Jens H. Kruuse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > During the Zandy GP I started having negative thoughts at the time when > Jan was 25 secs with 20 laps to go. "Brake early, or you will spin." > "Careful here or you won't be able to make the turn." Whammo! 20 secs > down the drain when I spun!