GTR - "feel"

I'm a mildly serious simmer of average quality (GPL rank +50, mostlt the Ring).I just got GTR, and it seems really good, especially the AI. But I have an issue. It seems to me that feeling the edge of traction is more difficult than with GPL, NR2003, or the old GTR. Either I'm stuck like glue or I'm off the track. 3.4 P4, MOMO Force (the original one), 9800pro, Is it me? More realistic physics? Opinions? Bob

Bob wrote:

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> I'm a mildly serious simmer of average quality (GPL rank +50, mostlt > the Ring).I just got GTR, and it seems really good, especially the AI. > > But I have an issue. It seems to me that feeling the edge of traction > is more difficult than with GPL, NR2003, or the old GTR. Either I'm > stuck like glue or I'm off the track. 3.4 P4, MOMO Force (the original > one), 9800pro, > > Is it me? More realistic physics? Opinions? > > Bob >

I'm not sure which cars you've tried, but I tend to agree with you if you're talking about GTR straight out of the box. It takes a bit of tweaking -- but I'm neither a tweaker or a set-up guru. So, after trying several cars at my favorite circuit (Spa), I found that the car that has the best "feel" for me is the (NGT) Ferrari 360 Modena. If you haven't tried NGT, give it a whirl. I would be curious to hear opinions about which GT-class car feels closest to the 360 Modena, though...... I'd like to try a GT again, but have neither the time nor inclination to tweak.

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> I'm a mildly serious simmer of average quality (GPL rank +50, mostlt > the Ring).I just got GTR, and it seems really good, especially the AI. > > But I have an issue. It seems to me that feeling the edge of traction > is more difficult than with GPL, NR2003, or the old GTR. Either I'm > stuck like glue or I'm off the track. 3.4 P4, MOMO Force (the original > one), 9800pro, > > Is it me? More realistic physics? Opinions?

I think it's partly setup and it's partly the car. If you want to slide around in a GT car, I'd say give the Lambo a spin. That thing has great throttle oversteer and makes for some nice mini-slides coming out of fast sweepers. It also helps a great deal to up the scrubbing volume. I can certainly see how folks can run the cars very close to the edge (I can't), but it requires very good command of the pedals. I've found that small movements can make a huge difference between going fast and going off, and from the little I played of the GPL demo, it's more forgiving of (relatively) larger movements. Alan

I have to agree. GTR lacks feel. I think it's a problem with the feedback from the car. GPL nailed this perfectly. GTR has little or no real feedback. If you notice, the camera actually doesn't move much, compared to GPL. James "Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I'm a mildly serious simmer of average quality (GPL rank +50, mostlt > the Ring).I just got GTR, and it seems really good, especially the AI. > > But I have an issue. It seems to me that feeling the edge of traction > is more difficult than with GPL, NR2003, or the old GTR. Either I'm > stuck like glue or I'm off the track. 3.4 P4, MOMO Force (the original > one), 9800pro, > > Is it me? More realistic physics? Opinions? > > Bob >

I don't notice that at all. The "feel" of the car is the best in an ISI based sim in quite a while. I'm not sure what the difference between me and you is, but I like the overall feel of the sim. Something I tried that made a world of difference. Try the setups that you can dload via the "online files" button. Pick one that for your car and try it out. I am terrible at setups and for some tracks, it took a few tries, but for the original tracks, there are a ton of setups available. Instantly, I was seconds quicker per lap on almost every track. Perhaps that will improve the feel for you. Bob wrote:

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> I'm a mildly serious simmer of average quality (GPL rank +50, mostlt > the Ring).I just got GTR, and it seems really good, especially the AI. > > But I have an issue. It seems to me that feeling the edge of traction > is more difficult than with GPL, NR2003, or the old GTR. Either I'm > stuck like glue or I'm off the track. 3.4 P4, MOMO Force (the original > one), 9800pro, > > Is it me? More realistic physics? Opinions? > > Bob

On 8 Jun 2005 02:01:23 -0700, Darus wrote: > I don't notice that at all. The "feel" of the car is the best in an ISI > based sim in quite a while. I'm not sure what the difference between me Same here, maybe the OP should play with the ge-force slider to see if it improves the feel for him. Cheers, uwe -- GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

Uwe =?iso-8859-15?Q?Sch=FCrkamp?= <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

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> On 8 Jun 2005 02:01:23 -0700, Darus wrote: >> I don't notice that at all. The "feel" of the car is the best in an ISI >> based sim in quite a while. I'm not sure what the difference between me > > Same here, maybe the OP should play with the ge-force slider to see if > it improves the feel for him. > > Cheers, uwe > >

A couple of questions....for the non-feelers out there. Are you 'old school' GPLers? Have you configured your controller screens to properly adapt to GTR? Here is a thread on RaceSim Central that might help. http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=98340 And 3rd question....do you have a Force Feedback wheel? dave henrie

"Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I'm a mildly serious simmer of average quality (GPL rank +50, mostlt > the Ring).I just got GTR, and it seems really good, especially the AI. > > But I have an issue. It seems to me that feeling the edge of traction > is more difficult than with GPL, NR2003, or the old GTR. Either I'm > stuck like glue or I'm off the track. 3.4 P4, MOMO Force (the original > one), 9800pro, > > Is it me? More realistic physics? Opinions? >

No doubt you'll get a range of opinions, but I'd say what you're noticing is a combination of GTR's (accurate) lack of loud tire-slip sounds, in concert with the exaggerated bumpiness of the track surfaces and the remaining low-speed grip issues with that generation of ISI-based tire model. Qualifier - I only have the latest demo to go by. But if you crank the telemetry data sampling rate up all the way and take a good look at the suspension travel and damper velocities it appears there's something funky going on in there. I've seen instances of the suspension oscillating through a 12cm range (+/-6) in .05-second intervals in fairly low-speed sections of Spa, and that just looks off to me. Think about it; up and down 6cm, or 2& 1/4 inches, 20 times per second. That's a jackhammer on turbo-mode, not a shock absorber. It's either some crazy bump modeling in the track surface or an oscillation developing in the physics model. The result is the grip tend to come and go in a kind of chattering, staccato fashion, and at low speed it tends to be sudden. Does tend to convey a bumpy track surface, but hey; I've been around spa on 21mm bike tires at 120psi with NO suspension and it just aint THAT bumpy... ;-) You can tweak the tire sounds in the PLR file to give yourself a bit more feedback at early slip levels if you like.

> >> I don't notice that at all. The "feel" of the car is the best in an ISI > >> based sim in quite a while. Could be. I wasn't comparing it to ISI sims. > A couple of questions....for the non-feelers out there. > Are you 'old school' GPLers? Yep. > Have you configured your controller screens > to properly adapt to GTR? That was my biggest problem. Impatient, I started to use the sim and set the controller (MOMO Force) up, but left off cosmetic details like a driver name. When, after a relatively few laps, I changed the name I lost all the controller settings. That fixed, things (at least with the Lamborghini) are substantially better. The edge is still harder to find than with GPL or NASCAR2003, but to a degree that I'm willing to believe it's (at least mostly) modern tires. At least now I can get feedback about what I'm doing wrong :-). Thanks for everyone's suggestions.

Use the differential luke ;) Seriously though, till I came to grips with the diff I felt similar to you about GTR. After finally investing some time learning the diff I wonder how on earth I ever turned a decent lap prior. It made all the difference. Makes me wish I would have spent more time setting up GPL. The edge IS more difficult to find than in NR2003. But that aint saying much ;) GTR takes a bunch of skill to turn consistent laps and even more to be consistently fast. Another big help is to adjust your sounds so skidding/road noise and tire noise all up to 200%. I even turn down the other sounds a bit just to focus the tire sounds even more. Mitch "Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> >> >> I don't notice that at all. The "feel" of the car is the best in an >> >> ISI >> >> based sim in quite a while. > > Could be. I wasn't comparing it to ISI sims. > > >> A couple of questions....for the non-feelers out there. >> Are you 'old school' GPLers? > > Yep. > >> Have you configured your controller screens >> to properly adapt to GTR? > > That was my biggest problem. Impatient, I started to use > the sim and set the controller (MOMO Force) up, but left off cosmetic > details like a driver name. When, after a relatively few laps, I > changed the name I lost all the controller settings. That fixed, > things (at least with the Lamborghini) are substantially better. The > edge is still harder to find than with GPL or NASCAR2003, but to a > degree that I'm willing to believe it's (at least mostly) modern tires. > At least now I can get feedback about what I'm doing wrong :-). > > Thanks for everyone's suggestions. >

It IS an ISI based you know? So the comparo is valid.

The "feel" in GTR is better than anything else out there. Why is my opinion so opposite? Hardware. The original MOMO wheels suck with ISI sims. The new MOMO doesn't. It is just as good with GPL, worse with NR2003 and better with the ISI stuff and LFS. The feedback from GTR (if you have the right hardware) is so far ahead of any other sim out there it still stuns me every time I read this type of comment. Oh well... Marc . "James" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:42a6a10e$[email hidden]...

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>I have to agree. GTR lacks feel. I think it's a problem with the feedback >from the car. GPL nailed this perfectly. GTR has little or no real >feedback. If you notice, the camera actually doesn't move much, compared >to GPL. > > James > > > "Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> I'm a mildly serious simmer of average quality (GPL rank +50, mostlt >> the Ring).I just got GTR, and it seems really good, especially the AI. >> >> But I have an issue. It seems to me that feeling the edge of traction >> is more difficult than with GPL, NR2003, or the old GTR. Either I'm >> stuck like glue or I'm off the track. 3.4 P4, MOMO Force (the original >> one), 9800pro, >> >> Is it me? More realistic physics? Opinions? >> >> Bob >> > >

"Marc Collins" wrote: > The "feel" in GTR is better than anything else out there. Why is myopinion > so opposite? Hardware. The original MOMO wheels suck with ISI sims. The > new MOMO doesn't. It is just as good with GPL, worse with NR2003 andbetter

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> with the ISI stuff and LFS. > > The feedback from GTR (if you have the right hardware) is so far ahead of > any other sim out there it still stuns me every time I read this type of > comment. > > Oh well... > > Marc

I am not convinced it is a hardware thing but more of a personal feel thing. Especially for those bought up on the feel of Papy sims. There are still a number who feel that GPL nailed a feel that somehow overcomes the limitations of sim racing compared with real life. NR2003 despite its obvious improvements in the model was fine for stock cars on ovals but was somehow a backward step for road racing feel and all the subsequent mods have that Nascar infection! I remain unconvinced that pure physics simulation is enough without some form of motion system, hence a magic feel factor needs to be present to replace the missing motion. Also the missing RL feel makes simulating with racing slicks potentially harder than RL, so another reason some prefer the more forgiving nature of 60s tyres. Arguably the upcoming mods for GPL will be a match for anything new in the feel factor states. Of course it will lack all those other features like dynamic weather, pitstops and component wear, yet for sheer feel it is still at the top of the tree for many. Cheers Tony

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> I remain unconvinced that pure physics simulation is enough without some > form of motion system, hence a magic feel factor needs to be present to > replace the missing motion. > > Also the missing RL feel makes simulating with racing slicks potentially > harder than RL, so another reason some prefer the more forgiving nature of > 60s tyres. >

I think Tony has nailed it. GPL, either by accident or by design, has a feel which somewhat compensates for the limitations of a computer sim. While GTR is more clinically correct, it has less feel than the real thing, because some feedback loops are just not there. BTW, I raced the real thing (Showroom Stock and Formula Ford) for ten years. And GTR has still bounced GPL off the top of my list because of the fantastic AI opposition and equal or better variety of car characteristics.

I'd say that RBR by far has the best feel and physics or any sim out htere.