OT: WELL?

I'm suprised I'm not the first to address this... dave henrie

I'm suprised I'm not the first to address this... dave henrie ------------------ We're busy building chicanes. ;-) Michelin sure screwed their teams. -- Richard "ZZ" Busch [URL=http://gtr.gplrank.info/viewLaptimesbyUserId?user_id=14884]GTRank[/URL] Member: Screamers Racing League oAo AoA MARA GTR GT Rank +34.560 NGT Rank +37.765 GT Rank Monster +1163.777 GPL Rank + 14.768 MoGPL Rank + 308.654 N2003 Rank -18.8060 ---------------- Remember racecar is racecar spelled backward ----------------- <a href="http://www.spreadfirefox.com/?q=affiliates&amp;id=0&amp;t=1">Get Firefox!</a> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

F1 isnt much different than Europe as a whole. Its all about political wrangling and zero to do with whats the right thing to do. Mitch "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I'm suprised I'm not the first to address this... > > > dave henrie

I just got home from that fiasco. I will never spend my dollars on attending another FIA event. Kyle "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Cbjte.30850$[email hidden]...

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> F1 isnt much different than Europe as a whole. Its all about political > wrangling and zero to do with whats the right thing to do. > > Mitch > > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> I'm suprised I'm not the first to address this... >> >> >> dave henrie > >

Maybe once the shock wears off.... Joe "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I'm suprised I'm not the first to address this... > > > dave henrie

You weren't the guy that threw the water bottle were ya Kyle? :)) Yea what a shame. Can you get your money back? Mitch "Kyle Roberts" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:wtjte.87$[email hidden]...

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>I just got home from that fiasco. I will never spend my dollars on >attending another FIA event. > > Kyle > > > "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Cbjte.30850$[email hidden]... >> F1 isnt much different than Europe as a whole. Its all about political >> wrangling and zero to do with whats the right thing to do. >> >> Mitch >> >> >> "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:[email hidden]... >>> I'm suprised I'm not the first to address this... >>> >>> >>> dave henrie >> >> > >

while i sympathise with the disgust shown by that disgruntled fan, that kind of behaviour is just plainly insane and dangerous. its only marginally more stupid than the inability of the administrators & teams to reach a compromise to show some respect to the fans who keep the sport alive, buy tickets and merchandise. i'm not laying blame as I don't really have all the facts, but i do believe that an adequate compromise was possible. i am sure that my 5 year old daughter could have suggested something better than this last piece of crap. i watched it to see if the fans would stay and get their boos in. good for them. my heart goes out to all the fans and families who saved and saved for this weekend. flying in to indy, staying at hotels, etc. i wish they could get something back. hang on a sec... back.. just started deleting my f1c installation. that'll give me back 20gigs of space. i think i'll play GTR for a few weeks until i calm down. it took me years to collect that installation, but i feel good now. i also won't be buying a ferarri when it comes to selling my old renault :) I've been saving to visit my brother in the UK and was considering going to the Silverstone race. Screw that thought. Cheers all istoff

"Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:KAjte.103$[email hidden]... > You weren't the guy that threw the water bottle were ya Kyle? :)) > > Yea what a shame. Can you get your money back? > > Mitch No. I just got my boos in and left after the third or fourth lap. I was going to renew my tickets tomorrow and do the drive a lap on the track thing. That is not going to happen now and I will not be going back to the US Grand Prix or another other F1 race. The FIA obviously does not care about the fans at all. They had options to pursue to have a full grid, but instead they chose to screw the fans. I was pissed and only had to drive about 20 miles to the track. I really feel for the people that came from across the U.S. or from other countries to see this "Traveshamockery! Kyle

Why don't you spend your time and money in a better way and boycott Michelin and FRANCE! LMAO -- Sean Higgins www.higpup.com My Trans Am Pictures http://www.higpup.com/ta Ferrari Pictures http://www.higpup.com/Ferrari "Kyle Roberts" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:wtjte.87$[email hidden]... >I just got home from that fiasco. I will never spend my dollars on >attending another FIA event. > > Kyle > > > "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Cbjte.30850$[email hidden]... >> F1 isnt much different than Europe as a whole. Its all about political >> wrangling and zero to do with whats the right thing to do. >> >> Mitch >> >> >> "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:[email hidden]... >>> I'm suprised I'm not the first to address this... >>> >>> >>> dave henrie >> >> > >

Joe Reed wrote:

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> Maybe once the shock wears off.... > > Joe > > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I'm suprised I'm not the first to address this... > > > > > > dave henrie

The FIA's published correspondence on the matter clearly gave the teams an option to change tyres and take a penalty. Since many of them have stated publicly that they would have raced without championship points, etc, why could they not change the tyres, take the penalties, and get on with it? The teams have claimed the FIA "refused" to allow them to run on different tyres. No they didn't, they refused to let them do it without penalties. That's a difference. Surely, for the sake of the sport, there should be rule that says, broadly, "if the FIA gives you a way to get out of your own predicament and race safely at normal racing speeds at the expense of a penalty then you must take it or face a suspension from the championship." That would focus the minds a little... on the needs of the sport they all claim to support. Basically, Michelin screwed up, the teams ended up with sub-standard equipment, they were given an opportunity to race for the fans and they declined to take it. Blame the teams, blame Michelin, but don't blame the FIA for being fair.

What does Ferrari have to do with this? Michelin is 100% at fault here. They didn't make a tire sturdy enough to withstand a corner that has been there for 100 years. -- Sean Higgins www.higpup.com My Trans Am Pictures http://www.higpup.com/ta Ferrari Pictures http://www.higpup.com/Ferrari "istoff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > while i sympathise with the disgust shown by that disgruntled fan, that > kind of behaviour is just plainly insane and dangerous. > > its only marginally more stupid than the inability of the > administrators & teams to reach a compromise to show some respect to > the fans who keep the sport alive, buy tickets and merchandise. > > i'm not laying blame as I don't really have all the facts, but i do > believe that an adequate compromise was possible. i am sure that my 5 > year old daughter could have suggested something better than this last > piece of crap. i watched it to see if the fans would stay and get > their boos in. good for them. > > my heart goes out to all the fans and families who saved and saved for > this weekend. flying in to indy, staying at hotels, etc. i wish they > could get something back. > > hang on a sec... > > back.. just started deleting my f1c installation. that'll give me back > 20gigs of space. i think i'll play GTR for a few weeks until i calm > down. it took me years to collect that installation, but i feel good > now. > > i also won't be buying a ferarri when it comes to selling my old > renault :) > > I've been saving to visit my brother in the UK and was considering > going to the Silverstone race. Screw that thought. > > Cheers all > istoff >

Michelin teams could of started the race. Coultard said over the radio he wanted to race, and would have. -- Sean Higgins www.higpup.com My Trans Am Pictures http://www.higpup.com/ta Ferrari Pictures http://www.higpup.com/Ferrari "Kyle Roberts" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8Qkte.121$[email hidden]... > > "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:KAjte.103$[email hidden]... >> You weren't the guy that threw the water bottle were ya Kyle? :)) >> >> Yea what a shame. Can you get your money back? >> >> Mitch > > No. I just got my boos in and left after the third or fourth lap. I was > going to renew my tickets tomorrow and do the drive a lap on the track > thing. That is not going to happen now and I will not be going back to the > US Grand Prix or another other F1 race. The FIA obviously does not care > about the fans at all. They had options to pursue to have a full grid, but > instead they chose to screw the fans. I was pissed and only had to drive > about 20 miles to the track. I really feel for the people that came from > across the U.S. or from other countries to see this "Traveshamockery! > > Kyle >

"Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Michelin teams could of started the race. Coultard said over the radio he > wanted to race, and would have. One word: Liability. By driving an unapproved car the drivers (or at least the teams) would be liable for any damage. Bit like driving without insurance in a normal car I guess, it's technically possible but you would need a deep wallet if you cause a problem. It's a risk the teams weren't prepared to take. Malc.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > The FIA's published correspondence on the matter clearly gave the > teams an option to change tyres and take a penalty. Since many of them > have stated publicly that they would have raced without championship > points, etc, why could they not change the tyres, take the penalties, > and get on with it? As I understand it the replacements weren't suitable either so swapping tyres wasn't an option in the end. > The teams have claimed the FIA "refused" to allow them to run on > different tyres. No they didn't, they refused to let them do it without > penalties. That's a difference. I think you are right there, but as it turned out it wasn't an option AFAIK. > Basically, Michelin screwed up, the teams ended up with sub-standard > equipment, they were given an opportunity to race for the fans and they > declined to take it. Blame the teams, blame Michelin, but don't blame > the FIA for being fair. Michelin realised they had 'screwed up' on Friday, well before the race. They are certainly responsible & I'm sure they will pay heavily for the mistake, but they did attempt to correct their mistake and to my eyes the chicane option was the lesser of many evils.. As I understand it the corner has been there for years (of course) but the 'diamond cut' surface was new this season. imo someone at Michelin didn't do enough homework & assumed a 'regular' track surface. Mistakes are common & part of motorsport, how the problems that arose from that mistake were dealt with was the reason for the sparse grid. Malc.

"Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > What does Ferrari have to do with this? Michelin is 100% at fault here. > They didn't make a tire sturdy enough to withstand a corner that has been > there for 100 years. Ferrari allegedly refused to back the 'chicane' option. Any changes can only be made if all teams agree. The other 9 did but Ferrari refused to compromise. Malc.

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> "istoff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > while i sympathise with the disgust shown by that disgruntled fan, that > > kind of behaviour is just plainly insane and dangerous. > > > > its only marginally more stupid than the inability of the > > administrators & teams to reach a compromise to show some respect to > > the fans who keep the sport alive, buy tickets and merchandise. > > > > i'm not laying blame as I don't really have all the facts, but i do > > believe that an adequate compromise was possible. i am sure that my 5 > > year old daughter could have suggested something better than this last > > piece of crap. i watched it to see if the fans would stay and get > > their boos in. good for them. > > > > my heart goes out to all the fans and families who saved and saved for > > this weekend. flying in to indy, staying at hotels, etc. i wish they > > could get something back. > > > > hang on a sec... > > > > back.. just started deleting my f1c installation. that'll give me back > > 20gigs of space. i think i'll play GTR for a few weeks until i calm > > down. it took me years to collect that installation, but i feel good > > now. > > > > i also won't be buying a ferarri when it comes to selling my old > > renault :) > > > > I've been saving to visit my brother in the UK and was considering > > going to the Silverstone race. Screw that thought. > > > > Cheers all > > istoff > > > >

Freedom Tires!!! "Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Why don't you spend your time and money in a better way and boycott > Michelin and FRANCE! LMAO > > -- > Sean Higgins > > www.higpup.com > > My Trans Am Pictures > http://www.higpup.com/ta > Ferrari Pictures > http://www.higpup.com/Ferrari > "Kyle Roberts" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:wtjte.87$[email hidden]... >>I just got home from that fiasco. I will never spend my dollars on >>attending another FIA event. >> >> Kyle >> >> >> "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:Cbjte.30850$[email hidden]... >>> F1 isnt much different than Europe as a whole. Its all about political >>> wrangling and zero to do with whats the right thing to do. >>> >>> Mitch >>> >>> >>> "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >>> news:[email hidden]... >>>> I'm suprised I'm not the first to address this... >>>> >>>> >>>> dave henrie >>> >>> >> >> > >

SO? So next time Ferrari is slow or has a problem they can suggest track changes? What a crock. LOL -- Sean Higgins www.higpup.com My Trans Am Pictures http://www.higpup.com/ta Ferrari Pictures http://www.higpup.com/Ferrari "Malc" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:42b5eec1$1$2426$[email hidden]... > "Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> What does Ferrari have to do with this? Michelin is 100% at fault here. >> They didn't make a tire sturdy enough to withstand a corner that has been >> there for 100 years. > > Ferrari allegedly refused to back the 'chicane' option. Any changes can > only > be made if all teams agree. The other 9 did but Ferrari refused to > compromise. > > Malc. > > > >> "istoff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:[email hidden]... >> > while i sympathise with the disgust shown by that disgruntled fan, that >> > kind of behaviour is just plainly insane and dangerous. >> > >> > its only marginally more stupid than the inability of the >> > administrators & teams to reach a compromise to show some respect to >> > the fans who keep the sport alive, buy tickets and merchandise. >> > >> > i'm not laying blame as I don't really have all the facts, but i do >> > believe that an adequate compromise was possible. i am sure that my 5 >> > year old daughter could have suggested something better than this last >> > piece of crap. i watched it to see if the fans would stay and get >> > their boos in. good for them. >> > >> > my heart goes out to all the fans and families who saved and saved for >> > this weekend. flying in to indy, staying at hotels, etc. i wish they >> > could get something back. >> > >> > hang on a sec... >> > >> > back.. just started deleting my f1c installation. that'll give me back >> > 20gigs of space. i think i'll play GTR for a few weeks until i calm >> > down. it took me years to collect that installation, but i feel good >> > now. >> > >> > i also won't be buying a ferarri when it comes to selling my old >> > renault :) >> > >> > I've been saving to visit my brother in the UK and was considering >> > going to the Silverstone race. Screw that thought. >> > >> > Cheers all >> > istoff >> > >> >> > >

ROFLMAO! -- Sean Higgins www.higpup.com My Trans Am Pictures http://www.higpup.com/ta Ferrari Pictures http://www.higpup.com/Ferrari "DodgeBullet40" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Qhmte.21436$2K4.1056@trnddc08... > Freedom Tires!!! > > "Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> Why don't you spend your time and money in a better way and boycott >> Michelin and FRANCE! LMAO >> >> -- >> Sean Higgins >> >> www.higpup.com >> >> My Trans Am Pictures >> http://www.higpup.com/ta >> Ferrari Pictures >> http://www.higpup.com/Ferrari >> "Kyle Roberts" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:wtjte.87$[email hidden]... >>>I just got home from that fiasco. I will never spend my dollars on >>>attending another FIA event. >>> >>> Kyle >>> >>> >>> "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >>> news:Cbjte.30850$[email hidden]... >>>> F1 isnt much different than Europe as a whole. Its all about political >>>> wrangling and zero to do with whats the right thing to do. >>>> >>>> Mitch >>>> >>>> >>>> "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >>>> news:[email hidden]... >>>>> I'm suprised I'm not the first to address this... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> dave henrie >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > >

"Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > SO? So next time Ferrari is slow or has a problem they can suggest track > changes? What a crock. LOL Exactly, and it's happened before in Michelin's favour. It's not hard to see that it's not in the best interests of the sport to have this type of disagreement. What's good for F1 is good for Ferrari, but what's good for Ferrari (or any one team) isn't always best for F1. Malc. > "Malc" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:42b5eec1$1$2426$[email hidden]... > > "Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > >> What does Ferrari have to do with this? Michelin is 100% at faulthere. > >> They didn't make a tire sturdy enough to withstand a corner that hasbeen

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> >> there for 100 years. > > > > Ferrari allegedly refused to back the 'chicane' option. Any changes can > > only > > be made if all teams agree. The other 9 did but Ferrari refused to > > compromise. > > > > Malc. > > > > > > > >> "istoff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >> news:[email hidden]... > >> > while i sympathise with the disgust shown by that disgruntled fan,

that

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> >> > kind of behaviour is just plainly insane and dangerous. > >> > > >> > its only marginally more stupid than the inability of the > >> > administrators & teams to reach a compromise to show some respect to > >> > the fans who keep the sport alive, buy tickets and merchandise. > >> > > >> > i'm not laying blame as I don't really have all the facts, but i do > >> > believe that an adequate compromise was possible. i am sure that my

5 > >> > year old daughter could have suggested something better than thislast > >> > piece of crap. i watched it to see if the fans would stay and get > >> > their boos in. good for them. > >> > > >> > my heart goes out to all the fans and families who saved and savedfor > >> > this weekend. flying in to indy, staying at hotels, etc. i wishthey > >> > could get something back. > >> > > >> > hang on a sec... > >> > > >> > back.. just started deleting my f1c installation. that'll give meback

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> >> > 20gigs of space. i think i'll play GTR for a few weeks until i calm > >> > down. it took me years to collect that installation, but i feel good > >> > now. > >> > > >> > i also won't be buying a ferarri when it comes to selling my old > >> > renault :) > >> > > >> > I've been saving to visit my brother in the UK and was considering > >> > going to the Silverstone race. Screw that thought. > >> > > >> > Cheers all > >> > istoff > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > >

Maybe this will get the tire war back to more even ground. This may force Michelin to build tires with a bit of room to spare for this kind of thing. -- Sean Higgins www.higpup.com My Trans Am Pictures http://www.higpup.com/ta Ferrari Pictures http://www.higpup.com/Ferrari "Malc" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:42b5f695$0$2428$[email hidden]... > "Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> SO? So next time Ferrari is slow or has a problem they can suggest track >> changes? What a crock. LOL > > Exactly, and it's happened before in Michelin's favour. It's not hard to > see > that it's not in the best interests of the sport to have this type of > disagreement. What's good for F1 is good for Ferrari, but what's good for > Ferrari (or any one team) isn't always best for F1. > > Malc. > > >> "Malc" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:42b5eec1$1$2426$[email hidden]... >> > "Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> > news:[email hidden]... >> >> What does Ferrari have to do with this? Michelin is 100% at fault > here. >> >> They didn't make a tire sturdy enough to withstand a corner that has > been >> >> there for 100 years. >> > >> > Ferrari allegedly refused to back the 'chicane' option. Any changes can >> > only >> > be made if all teams agree. The other 9 did but Ferrari refused to >> > compromise. >> > >> > Malc. >> > >> > >> > >> >> "istoff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> >> news:[email hidden]... >> >> > while i sympathise with the disgust shown by that disgruntled fan, > that >> >> > kind of behaviour is just plainly insane and dangerous. >> >> > >> >> > its only marginally more stupid than the inability of the >> >> > administrators & teams to reach a compromise to show some respect to >> >> > the fans who keep the sport alive, buy tickets and merchandise. >> >> > >> >> > i'm not laying blame as I don't really have all the facts, but i do >> >> > believe that an adequate compromise was possible. i am sure that my > 5 >> >> > year old daughter could have suggested something better than this > last >> >> > piece of crap. i watched it to see if the fans would stay and get >> >> > their boos in. good for them. >> >> > >> >> > my heart goes out to all the fans and families who saved and saved > for >> >> > this weekend. flying in to indy, staying at hotels, etc. i wish > they >> >> > could get something back. >> >> > >> >> > hang on a sec... >> >> > >> >> > back.. just started deleting my f1c installation. that'll give me > back >> >> > 20gigs of space. i think i'll play GTR for a few weeks until i calm >> >> > down. it took me years to collect that installation, but i feel >> >> > good >> >> > now. >> >> > >> >> > i also won't be buying a ferarri when it comes to selling my old >> >> > renault :) >> >> > >> >> > I've been saving to visit my brother in the UK and was considering >> >> > going to the Silverstone race. Screw that thought. >> >> > >> >> > Cheers all >> >> > istoff >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> >> > >

> I'm suprised I'm not the first to address this... > Michelin have single handily screwed F1. It's clear what they want. A single tyre supplier to all teams..Michelin.Most likely they will now form a breakaway Formula 1 Championship that they can control. This whole fiasco could possibly be a stunt designed by Michelin to further their interests. Whatever the outcome, it seems obvious that the U.S. won't want any part of Formula 1 for quite some time to come. Shit, this whole thing reeks of EU politics transferred to the race track.

In article <kvnte.24561$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (redTed) wrote: > this whole thing reeks of EU politics transferred > to the race track. The comparison is only valid in the respect that the EU, like F1 (and most other human endeavours), is a complex mess of self-interest and the need for cooperation. Looking at what happened, it seems to me that everyone tried to use the rules to their competitive advantage. Nothing new there then. I feel sorry for the spectators, but F1 in the US was always a waste of effort if you ask me, especially on that track. Fortunately Bernie rarely asks for my advice :-) Andrew McP

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > I'm suprised I'm not the first to address this... > > > dave henrie > I was in shock. A friend of mine got tickets to the weekend as a birthday present and flew up from Texas to attend his first live race and this BS happened today. I'm at a complete loss. -- Rob Berryhill

> I was in shock. A friend of mine got tickets to the weekend as a > birthday present and flew up from Texas to attend his first live race > and this BS happened today. I'm at a complete loss. Ditto. I know a guy from California who flew up the night before (!) race day. He had access to tickets and pit passes and decided to go. Alan

"Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > SO? So next time Ferrari is slow or has a problem they can suggest track > changes? What a crock. LOL > Tricky situation for the FIA and teams. When Sauber's wings fell off at Brazil, should they have installed a chicane to slow *all* the teams down, even the ones which built a strong enough wing? The situation was unique only because 14 cars were running unsafe equipment, but I am not sure I am happy with the precedent which would be set if they were to make changes to suit teams which had not done their homework. ------------ And now a word from our sponsor ------------------ For a quality usenet news server, try DNEWS, easy to install, fast, efficient and reliable. For home servers or carrier class installations with millions of users it will allow you to grow! ---- See http://netwinsite.com/sponsor/sponsor_dnews.htm ----

"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I'm suprised I'm not the first to address this... > Due to framerate issues, the F1 championship races will be now limited to six visible cars at any time. ------------ And now a word from our sponsor ------------------ Do your users want the best web-email gateway? Don't let your customers drift off to free webmail services install your own web gateway! -- See http://netwinsite.com/sponsor/sponsor_webmail.htm ----

DodgeBullet40 wrote: > Freedom Tires!!! Freedom Tyres, actually.

The guys who threw the bottles should be done for attempted murder After all, what could they be trying to do except make the cars crash "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:KAjte.103$[email hidden]...

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> You weren't the guy that threw the water bottle were ya Kyle? :)) > > Yea what a shame. Can you get your money back? > > Mitch > > > "Kyle Roberts" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:wtjte.87$[email hidden]... > >I just got home from that fiasco. I will never spend my dollars on > >attending another FIA event. > > > > Kyle > > > > > > "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:Cbjte.30850$[email hidden]... > >> F1 isnt much different than Europe as a whole. Its all about political > >> wrangling and zero to do with whats the right thing to do. > >> > >> Mitch > >> > >> > >> "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >> news:[email hidden]... > >>> I'm suprised I'm not the first to address this... > >>> > >>> > >>> dave henrie > >> > >> > > > > > >

> After all, what could they be trying to do except make the cars crash >And why throw bottles at the people who are racing ? Talk about stupid. Go throw bottles and beer cans at Michelin HQ you numb twats ;) !

"Andrew MacPherson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <kvnte.24561$[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] (redTed) wrote: > >> this whole thing reeks of EU politics transferred >> to the race track. > > The comparison is only valid in the respect that the EU, like > F1 (and most other human endeavours), is a complex mess of > self-interest and the need for cooperation. Looking at what > happened, it seems to me that everyone tried to use the rules to > their competitive advantage. > > Nothing new there then. I feel sorry for the spectators, but F1 > in the US was always a waste of effort if you ask me, especially > on that track. Fortunately Bernie rarely asks for my advice :-) > > Andrew McP > >

I was idly wondering if , now that relations may be soured between Tony G and F1, and bearing in mind that our ex champ car survivors now own the Long Beach race organising group, maybe .. Long Beach Grand Prix? .. But then Bernie never credits me either. jv

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>As I understand it the corner has been there for years (of course) but the >'diamond cut' surface was new this season. imo someone at Michelin didn't do >enough homework & assumed a 'regular' track surface. >Mistakes are common & part of motorsport, how the problems that arose from >that mistake were dealt with was the reason for the sparse grid.

It's mind boggling the money being spent in F1 and how simple it would have been for Michelin to send an engineer to the Indy 500 to inspect the track. F1 is so self important, it's likely that nobody in the F1 circus even WATCHED the 500 to know the track had changed. Except Bridgestone who supplies IRL tires.....

redTed wrote:

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>>After all, what could they be trying to do except make the cars crash >> > > And why throw bottles at the people who are racing ? Talk about stupid. > Go throw bottles and beer cans at Michelin HQ you numb twats ;) ! > >

and they probably own guns too!

Stephen F. wrote:

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> "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > >> I'm suprised I'm not the first to address this... >> > > > > Due to framerate issues, the F1 championship races will be now limited to > six visible cars at any time. >

LOL! 4 in front and 1 behind? F1 is rubbish anyway. F1 races normally bore me to sleep, that's when I can be arsed to watch. But all the controversy surrounding this event actually made me tune in and stay awake! So come on F1, let's have more fuck-ups.

What the heck is all this talk about about Michelin and FIA and stuff.....???? "I" was referring to the fact Britany Spears isn't a true Blonde!!!! sheesh!!! lolololol dave henrie

Them postmen sure have a unique sense of humor dont they ;) I guess it beats a rampage eh, lol... "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> >

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> "I" was referring to the fact Britany Spears isn't a true Blonde!!!! > > > sheesh!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > lolololol > > > > > dave henrie

Dave Henrie wrote:

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> What the heck is all this talk about about Michelin and FIA and > stuff.....???? > > > "I" was referring to the fact Britany Spears isn't a true Blonde!!!! > > > sheesh!!! > lolololol > > dave henrie

It's all to do with cant

"mcewena" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > >As I understand it the corner has been there for years (of course) butthe > >'diamond cut' surface was new this season. imo someone at Michelin didn'tdo > >enough homework & assumed a 'regular' track surface. > > > >Mistakes are common & part of motorsport, how the problems that arosefrom

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> >that mistake were dealt with was the reason for the sparse grid. > > It's mind boggling the money being spent in F1 and how simple it would > have been for Michelin to send an engineer to the Indy 500 to inspect > the track. F1 is so self important, it's likely that nobody in the F1 > circus even WATCHED the 500 to know the track had changed. > > Except Bridgestone who supplies IRL tires.....

Easy to say with hindsight, but of course I agree they should have known. Malc.

The fans who buy tickets and merchandise do NOT "keep the sport alive. Television coverage, and the mega-bucks that flow to FOCA, is what funds F1. And it ceased to be a "sport", per se, many years ago. Bruce. "istoff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > the fans who keep the sport alive, buy tickets and merchandise. >

I heard that at a tire test at Indy, Michelin didn't send any major teams to do a test. -- Sean Higgins www.higpup.com My Trans Am Pictures http://www.higpup.com/ta Ferrari Pictures http://www.higpup.com/Ferrari "mcewena" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > >As I understand it the corner has been there for years (of course) but > >the >>'diamond cut' surface was new this season. imo someone at Michelin didn't >>do >>enough homework & assumed a 'regular' track surface. > > >>Mistakes are common & part of motorsport, how the problems that arose from >>that mistake were dealt with was the reason for the sparse grid. > > It's mind boggling the money being spent in F1 and how simple it would > have been for Michelin to send an engineer to the Indy 500 to inspect > the track. F1 is so self important, it's likely that nobody in the F1 > circus even WATCHED the 500 to know the track had changed. > > Except Bridgestone who supplies IRL tires..... >

"Juan Vizoso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I was idly wondering if , now that relations may be soured > between Tony G and F1, and bearing in mind that our ex champ car > survivors now own the Long Beach race organising group, maybe .. > Long Beach Grand Prix? .. If F1 goes back at all to the US next year, California would be a good idea, being just about as far away from Indianapolis as possible! Heck, how about Alaska or Hawaii? ;-) Not sure that the current LBGP layout is up to the minimum length required to hold an F1 race though, so modifications may be required... Tim -- ---------------- I love the smell of vomit in the newsgroup, it smells like...VICTORY! Jim M - Usenet out-take If you want to reply by email, replace the asterisks with underscores. Currently listening to: 'Working Girls (Sunlight Shines)' - The Pernice Brothers

I would love to see F1 stage a race at Elkart Lake ("Road America"). Cheers, uwe -- GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

Good luck on both Long Beach or Road America - I think F1 has pissed off enough people not just in Indy, but in America, to burn that bridge for a while. While Road America would be a great facility for an F1 race, it will never happen. Too far from metropolitan areas to make the insane money F1 requires. Wag "Uwe Schürkamp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... I would love to see F1 stage a race at Elkart Lake ("Road America"). Cheers, uwe -- GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

I guess that depends on the definition of major. They didn't send McLaren or Renault. They did send Sauber and BAR. Wag "Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... I heard that at a tire test at Indy, Michelin didn't send any major teams to do a test. -- Sean Higgins

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > I guess that depends on the definition of major. They didn't send McLaren or Renault. They did send Sauber and BAR. I would argue that BAR are a major team - 2nd in the championship last season, and part owned by Honda. -- AG Remove removes from address to remove anti-spam measures. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Alan Gauton E-Mail agauton @ postmaster.co.uk Never for me the lowered banner, never the last endeavour! (Damon Hill - 16th June 1999)

I could be wrong but I think they tested their Indy-spec tires at Imola, after all the track was in oval configuration until a week or so ago. However Bridgstone learned something at the 500. http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=189088&FS=F1 However nothing prevented Michelin from buying a ticket to the 500 for their engineers.....

0 points "Alan Gauton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > I guess that depends on the definition of major. They didn't send McLaren or Renault. They did send Sauber and BAR. I would argue that BAR are a major team - 2nd in the championship last season, and part owned by Honda. -- AG Remove removes from address to remove anti-spam measures. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Alan Gauton E-Mail agauton @ postmaster.co.uk Never for me the lowered banner, never the last endeavour! (Damon Hill - 16th June 1999)

"Stephen F." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:42b666c6$[email hidden]...

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> > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> I'm suprised I'm not the first to address this... >> > > > Due to framerate issues, the F1 championship races will be now limited to > six visible cars at any time.

LOL - needed a good laugh. What about a CTD - Change To Dunlops?

Excuse me but - Ferrari came to race on the track that was agreed upon ion 2000. If teams want to change track configurations, twenty minutes before the start of the race is not the time to do it. And Ferrari were not involved in the discussion, as Williams have confirmed. "Malc" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:42b5eec1$1$2426$[email hidden]...

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> "Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> What does Ferrari have to do with this? Michelin is 100% at fault here. >> They didn't make a tire sturdy enough to withstand a corner that has been >> there for 100 years. > > Ferrari allegedly refused to back the 'chicane' option. Any changes can > only > be made if all teams agree. The other 9 did but Ferrari refused to > compromise. > > Malc. > > > >> "istoff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:[email hidden]... >> > while i sympathise with the disgust shown by that disgruntled fan, that >> > kind of behaviour is just plainly insane and dangerous. >> > >> > its only marginally more stupid than the inability of the >> > administrators & teams to reach a compromise to show some respect to >> > the fans who keep the sport alive, buy tickets and merchandise. >> > >> > i'm not laying blame as I don't really have all the facts, but i do >> > believe that an adequate compromise was possible. i am sure that my 5 >> > year old daughter could have suggested something better than this last >> > piece of crap. i watched it to see if the fans would stay and get >> > their boos in. good for them. >> > >> > my heart goes out to all the fans and families who saved and saved for >> > this weekend. flying in to indy, staying at hotels, etc. i wish they >> > could get something back. >> > >> > hang on a sec... >> > >> > back.. just started deleting my f1c installation. that'll give me back >> > 20gigs of space. i think i'll play GTR for a few weeks until i calm >> > down. it took me years to collect that installation, but i feel good >> > now. >> > >> > i also won't be buying a ferarri when it comes to selling my old >> > renault :) >> > >> > I've been saving to visit my brother in the UK and was considering >> > going to the Silverstone race. Screw that thought. >> > >> > Cheers all >> > istoff >> > >> >> > >

I flew in from Tokyo early just to be there - bastards. They screwed us all - but hey, at least Michelin are assuring the French public that they wil turn up to race in France - how nice. "Kyle Roberts" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8Qkte.121$[email hidden]...

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> > "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:KAjte.103$[email hidden]... >> You weren't the guy that threw the water bottle were ya Kyle? :)) >> >> Yea what a shame. Can you get your money back? >> >> Mitch > > No. I just got my boos in and left after the third or fourth lap. I was > going to renew my tickets tomorrow and do the drive a lap on the track > thing. That is not going to happen now and I will not be going back to the > US Grand Prix or another other F1 race. The FIA obviously does not care > about the fans at all. They had options to pursue to have a full grid, but > instead they chose to screw the fans. I was pissed and only had to drive > about 20 miles to the track. I really feel for the people that came from > across the U.S. or from other countries to see this "Traveshamockery! > > Kyle >

The teams should be sued for inciting a riot. And endangering my life. Thank God the riot squad got there so fast or else 120,000 rioting fans on the stands would have caused serious injuries - there were scuffles and fights wherever you looked. All sponsors of F1 should take note; you are all involved with this fraud of paying customers. And I for one will not forget. "Dan Leach" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> The guys who threw the bottles should be done for attempted murder > After all, what could they be trying to do except make the cars crash > > "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:KAjte.103$[email hidden]... >> You weren't the guy that threw the water bottle were ya Kyle? :)) >> >> Yea what a shame. Can you get your money back? >> >> Mitch >> >> >> "Kyle Roberts" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:wtjte.87$[email hidden]... >> >I just got home from that fiasco. I will never spend my dollars on >> >attending another FIA event. >> > >> > Kyle >> > >> > >> > "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> > news:Cbjte.30850$[email hidden]... >> >> F1 isnt much different than Europe as a whole. Its all about >> >> political >> >> wrangling and zero to do with whats the right thing to do. >> >> >> >> Mitch >> >> >> >> >> >> "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> >> news:[email hidden]... >> >>> I'm suprised I'm not the first to address this... >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> dave henrie >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> >> > >

Yes, pity that 70% of Michelin sales are in the US - and over 50% of Ferrari sales, and Compaq sales, and Credit Suisse First Boston business - you name the corporate sponsor, and I'll show you how big a slice of their profits are in the US markets. "Andrew MacPherson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <kvnte.24561$[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] (redTed) wrote: > >> this whole thing reeks of EU politics transferred >> to the race track. > > The comparison is only valid in the respect that the EU, like > F1 (and most other human endeavours), is a complex mess of > self-interest and the need for cooperation. Looking at what > happened, it seems to me that everyone tried to use the rules to > their competitive advantage. > > Nothing new there then. I feel sorry for the spectators, but F1 > in the US was always a waste of effort if you ask me, especially > on that track. Fortunately Bernie rarely asks for my advice :-) > > Andrew McP > >

"Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... >I heard that at a tire test at Indy, Michelin didn't send any major teams >to do a test. > No one did - no one tested at Indy. And with only one week between Canada and Indy, no time to test. I'd say they should go to any track on the schedule for testing as soon as any surfacing or geometrical changes are made in future. And for the remote places where you can't easily test, always have 2 weeks between races and let them test at that track as a lead up in the week before the race. An issue I think has been overlooked so far, is the issue of possible poor sportsmanship, and maybe even criminal negligence, on the part of Bridgestone. If they had information from the Indy 500 that they knew would have made it dangerous for them as well as Michelin had they not been privvy to it, then to not share this with Michelin is wreckless on their part. So before you blame Michelin for everything, dwell on that a little. The FIA and Bridgestone want to put it all on Michelin. The FIA scheduled this race without testing. Bridgestone had information they probably should have made available to Michelin - imagine if Ralph's crash wasn't one he walked away from?

> So before you blame Michelin for everything, dwell on that a little. The >FIA and Bridgestone want to put it all on Michelin. The FIA scheduled this >race without testing. Bridgestone had information they probably should have >made available to Michelin - imagine if Ralph's crash wasn't one he walked >away from? What info? Like hey the track was ground? Anybody watching the 500 would know that, I'm sure Michelin could have sent engineers to inspect the track and got useful information without actually running an F1 car on it.

That's funny - I sat at the end of the frontstretch toward F1-Turn 1 and didn't see anything resembling a riot occur - although I was prepared for one. I did see a few minor scuffles but they were mainly confined to the 'South American' grandstand. Prolly a lot of pissed off Colombians irate at not seeing Montoya run a single race lap. Indianapolis is not Detroit - we don't riot or burn and tip over cars. Where were you sitting? I agree that the fans WILL NOT forget when they vote with there dollars. Wag "alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:_EYte.25944$[email hidden]... The teams should be sued for inciting a riot. And endangering my life. Thank God the riot squad got there so fast or else 120,000 rioting fans on the stands would have caused serious injuries - there were scuffles and fights wherever you looked. All sponsors of F1 should take note; you are all involved with this fraud of paying customers. And I for one will not forget.

It is reckless to not give your competitor information? ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME....That's rather Socialist of you......maybe Intel should start sharing technical data with AMD. Better yet, let's have the CIA start sharing intelligence with terrorists. The only negligence was on Michelin for not bringing a better tire. The FIA warned them several weeks ago after Raikonnen's blow out not to sacrifice safety over speed. Bullshit.......Sauber and BAR both tested at Indy (Davidson and Massa). So they did test and those teams apparently didn't have any problems or if they did, Michelin did fix them. Wag "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:42b858ed$0$27859$[email hidden]... "Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... >I heard that at a tire test at Indy, Michelin didn't send any major teams >to do a test. > No one did - no one tested at Indy. And with only one week between Canada and Indy, no time to test. I'd say they should go to any track on the schedule for testing as soon as any surfacing or geometrical changes are made in future. And for the remote places where you can't easily test, always have 2 weeks between races and let them test at that track as a lead up in the week before the race. An issue I think has been overlooked so far, is the issue of possible poor sportsmanship, and maybe even criminal negligence, on the part of Bridgestone. If they had information from the Indy 500 that they knew would have made it dangerous for them as well as Michelin had they not been privvy to it, then to not share this with Michelin is wreckless on their part. So before you blame Michelin for everything, dwell on that a little. The FIA and Bridgestone want to put it all on Michelin. The FIA scheduled this race without testing. Bridgestone had information they probably should have made available to Michelin - imagine if Ralph's crash wasn't one he walked away from?

>Bullshit.......Sauber and BAR both tested at Indy (Davidson and Massa). So they did test and those >teams apparently didn't have any problems or if they did, Michelin did fix them. Facts meet Byron, Bryon meet facts... They tested their Indy compound tires at Monza.... http://www.formula1.com/news/3119.html

. > > I would love to see F1 stage a race at Elkart Lake ("Road America"). > > Cheers, uwe > > The infrastructure around Road America would never support an event the size of F1 and, as David F has pointed out before, Road America has several very dangerous concrete bridges that might frighten the F1 drivers. Memo Gidley clouted one several years ago in a Champcar and barely survived. Imagine Ralf banging into the bridge in a much lighter vehicle. There are very few American tracks that could properly show off the F1 car's true potential. Possibly Barber Motorsports Park. Which is NOT to say there are not any great American tracks, they just don't suit the current need for wide,smooth track surfaces with large runoff areas that most new F1 tracks are. Long Beach is currently 1.968 miles in length, vs 2.6 miles for the Indy road course. In listening to the British Radio Le Mans announcer this past weekend, I was amused by his enthusiasm for the smallish upcoming ALMS event at Lime Rock Park. The sub 1 minute lap times should make for a very crowded race. He correctly identified the INDY course at Brands Hatch as the most similar Euro event. dave henrie

> The teams should be sued for inciting a riot. And endangering my life. > Thank God the riot squad got there so fast or else 120,000 rioting fans on > the stands would have caused serious injuries - there were scuffles and > fights wherever you looked. Angry mobs, eh ? How about the people who threw stuff on the track at the drivers getting locked up for attempted murder ? Or do the good people of Indianapolis have no control over their actions ?

In article <lHYte.25945$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (alex martini) wrote: > you name the corporate sponsor, and I'll show you how big > a slice of their profits are in the US markets. I don't think those sponsors are short of things to fund in the US already. I meant that F1 in the US is like Nascar in Europe... never gonna happen, no matter how many people you can attract to the occasional race. Andrew McP

I was sitting over T1 - section J or whatever - from whence the missiles reigned over the track - and where the guy who came 2nd in the 500 was sitting - ask him about the scuffles, he was virtually inside the scrum. "B Wegner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... That's funny - I sat at the end of the frontstretch toward F1-Turn 1 and didn't see anything resembling a riot occur - although I was prepared for one. I did see a few minor scuffles but they were mainly confined to the 'South American' grandstand. Prolly a lot of pissed off Colombians irate at not seeing Montoya run a single race lap. Indianapolis is not Detroit - we don't riot or burn and tip over cars. Where were you sitting? I agree that the fans WILL NOT forget when they vote with there dollars. Wag "alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:_EYte.25944$[email hidden]... The teams should be sued for inciting a riot. And endangering my life. Thank God the riot squad got there so fast or else 120,000 rioting fans on the stands would have caused serious injuries - there were scuffles and fights wherever you looked. All sponsors of F1 should take note; you are all involved with this fraud of paying customers. And I for one will not forget.

"redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%z_te.30062$[email hidden]...

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>> The teams should be sued for inciting a riot. And endangering my life. >> Thank God the riot squad got there so fast or else 120,000 rioting fans >> on the stands would have caused serious injuries - there were scuffles >> and fights wherever you looked. > > Angry mobs, eh ? > How about the people who threw stuff on the track at the drivers getting > locked up for attempted murder ? > Or do the good people of Indianapolis have no control over their actions ? > >

Indeed; ugly stuff. But then, what do you expect when you cheat 120,000 people out of their money and then send out six cars to vent their anger at? Believe me, as an Italian, I kinda cringed at the chorus of fuck-yous that met the playing of my anthem and flag to which I lost an uncle and a grandfather - not that I'm a patriot, you understand, but still ... such is life. Best moment, as I say, were the drivers waving at the kids before the race - knowing they were gonna screw everyone over. Now that is the definition of cold. Can you imagine how they were joking amongst themselves at the yank suckers in the stands? Priceless moment; think Coulthard and the Brits would have done the parade lap were this Silverstone? Or Fisichella were this Monza? I don't think so; they crapped all over that American crowd. Ugly stuff indeed.

"alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:KBYte.25942$[email hidden]: > And Ferrari were not involved in the discussion, as Williams have > confirmed. However, it HAS been reported that 9 of the 10 teams(or 10 of 11, I'm too rushed to look it up) had supported a chicane. Since ALL teams votes were needed to make the chane, the fact no chicane went up can 'partially' be attributed to Ferrari. Remember, they also did not want to allow Paul Stoddard to run his 2004 spec machinery at Australia. One could argue they are being consistant. Or one could argue they are supporting their sponsors. Or one could argue they are fighting for every point. dh

"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> "alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in > news:KBYte.25942$[email hidden]: > >> And Ferrari were not involved in the discussion, as Williams have >> confirmed. > > However, it HAS been reported that 9 of the 10 teams(or 10 of 11, I'm too > rushed to look it up) had supported a chicane. Since ALL teams votes were > needed to make the chane, the fact no chicane went up can 'partially' be > attributed to Ferrari. Remember, they also did not want to allow Paul > Stoddard to run his 2004 spec machinery at Australia. One could argue > they > are being consistant. Or one could argue they are supporting their > sponsors. Or one could argue they are fighting for every point. > > dh >

Yes well Ferrari spent 430 million dollars last year to win F1 - sounds like they may be serious about the competition. They spent more than some nations' GDP to win the world championship. As for Minardi and Jordan - why they decided to boycott the race is bizarre. They had no problems running - which makes their decision purely one of politics. Disgusting stuff indeed. Ferrari came to race. Ferrari raced. Michelin and its partner teams came to sabotage the FIA. And did so. They did it in the US because it was not in europe, basically, and as far removed from their core fans as possible. Anyone who thinks this was not the break away teams seizing an opportunity of sticking it to the FIA don't understand F1 at all. Michelin teams could easily have raced - only one team had a blow out, and only one other team reported any problems with the tyres. Slowing down was an option, as was driving through the pits - changing the entire configuration of the track in 20 minutes before the start of the race is a little unrealistic. Does anyone really think changing a track in 20 minutes is possible? And then send out 1000bhp machines onto a track that they have never seen before? Come on - you're just playing into the Michelin teams' hands.

You'd have to prove intent to murder - not likely. I certainly don't condone that idiocy and those people were quickly pointed out by REAL fans and escorted out. BTW, it's not the good people of Indianapolis. I'd easily estimate that less than 10% of that crowd is actually from Indy, or from Indiana for that matter (I live in Indianapolis). In fact, 50% of the crowd is South American and spent a lot of money so that these teams could butt fuck them - maybe we should charge them with rape! Wag "redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%z_te.30062$[email hidden]... > The teams should be sued for inciting a riot. And endangering my life. > Thank God the riot squad got there so fast or else 120,000 rioting fans on > the stands would have caused serious injuries - there were scuffles and > fights wherever you looked. Angry mobs, eh ? How about the people who threw stuff on the track at the drivers getting locked up for attempted murder ? Or do the good people of Indianapolis have no control over their actions ?

.....well said. "alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:xS_te.25952$[email hidden]... Indeed; ugly stuff. But then, what do you expect when you cheat 120,000 people out of their money and then send out six cars to vent their anger at? Believe me, as an Italian, I kinda cringed at the chorus of fuck-yous that met the playing of my anthem and flag to which I lost an uncle and a grandfather - not that I'm a patriot, you understand, but still ... such is life. Best moment, as I say, were the drivers waving at the kids before the race - knowing they were gonna screw everyone over. Now that is the definition of cold. Can you imagine how they were joking amongst themselves at the yank suckers in the stands? Priceless moment; think Coulthard and the Brits would have done the parade lap were this Silverstone? Or Fisichella were this Monza? I don't think so; they crapped all over that American crowd. Ugly stuff indeed.

But most importantly, Michelin should have brought a quality product and then there'd be no discussion of temporary chicanes which would be a safety issue in and of itself. Wag "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... "alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:KBYte.25942$[email hidden]: > And Ferrari were not involved in the discussion, as Williams have > confirmed. However, it HAS been reported that 9 of the 10 teams(or 10 of 11, I'm too rushed to look it up) had supported a chicane. Since ALL teams votes were needed to make the chane, the fact no chicane went up can 'partially' be attributed to Ferrari. Remember, they also did not want to allow Paul Stoddard to run his 2004 spec machinery at Australia. One could argue they are being consistant. Or one could argue they are supporting their sponsors. Or one could argue they are fighting for every point. dh

Yeah and they butt-fucked us dry mate - no spit used, no vaseline offered. And I believe it is 75% at the USGP that come from 200 miles or more from Indy. "B Wegner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... You'd have to prove intent to murder - not likely. I certainly don't condone that idiocy and those people were quickly pointed out by REAL fans and escorted out. BTW, it's not the good people of Indianapolis. I'd easily estimate that less than 10% of that crowd is actually from Indy, or from Indiana for that matter (I live in Indianapolis). In fact, 50% of the crowd is South American and spent a lot of money so that these teams could butt fuck them - maybe we should charge them with rape! Wag "redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%z_te.30062$[email hidden]... > The teams should be sued for inciting a riot. And endangering my life. > Thank God the riot squad got there so fast or else 120,000 rioting fans on > the stands would have caused serious injuries - there were scuffles and > fights wherever you looked. Angry mobs, eh ? How about the people who threw stuff on the track at the drivers getting locked up for attempted murder ? Or do the good people of Indianapolis have no control over their actions ?

Again, right on point my friend. "alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:u6%te.25953$[email hidden]... Yes well Ferrari spent 430 million dollars last year to win F1 - sounds like they may be serious about the competition. They spent more than some nations' GDP to win the world championship. As for Minardi and Jordan - why they decided to boycott the race is bizarre. They had no problems running - which makes their decision purely one of politics. Disgusting stuff indeed. Ferrari came to race. Ferrari raced. Michelin and its partner teams came to sabotage the FIA. And did so. They did it in the US because it was not in europe, basically, and as far removed from their core fans as possible. Anyone who thinks this was not the break away teams seizing an opportunity of sticking it to the FIA don't understand F1 at all. Michelin teams could easily have raced - only one team had a blow out, and only one other team reported any problems with the tyres. Slowing down was an option, as was driving through the pits - changing the entire configuration of the track in 20 minutes before the start of the race is a little unrealistic. Does anyone really think changing a track in 20 minutes is possible? And then send out 1000bhp machines onto a track that they have never seen before? Come on - you're just playing into the Michelin teams' hands.

I'd laugh but it wasn't too damn funny to me or my family when we were taking it from behind. I'm actually more pissed now than I was at the race. So did Vitor have to throw down with any of the hoodlums? "alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:xk%te.25956$[email hidden]... Yeah and they butt-fucked us dry mate - no spit used, no vaseline offered. And I believe it is 75% at the USGP that come from 200 miles or more from Indy.

I don't know - the beer bottle that landed up hitting rubens was thrown from pretty close to him, and the guy was tackled by a few fans, and fists were flying - I chose that moment to leave with my wife (being European, I have seen these things turn ugly pretty fast at footie games and thought better than to sit around and wait to find out what happens next) and drove away. Ashamed, to be honest, to have had anything to do with this sport - to think this was my 28th GP ... "B Wegner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... I'd laugh but it wasn't too damn funny to me or my family when we were taking it from behind. I'm actually more pissed now than I was at the race. So did Vitor have to throw down with any of the hoodlums? "alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:xk%te.25956$[email hidden]... Yeah and they butt-fucked us dry mate - no spit used, no vaseline offered. And I believe it is 75% at the USGP that come from 200 miles or more from Indy.

It is a shame that some folks choose to act like fools when given any excuse to do so. Also a shame that you were victimized twice; once by Michelin teams and once by a few idiots in the stands. As it turned out, the race between the reds was a pretty good one and the outcome was in doubt with 20 to go. That was my 4th GP and my last - more sad, is that my kids don't want anything to do with F1 anymore either - way to go fellas, you just alienated the current and future of your sport. Wag "alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4y%te.25957$[email hidden]... I don't know - the beer bottle that landed up hitting rubens was thrown from pretty close to him, and the guy was tackled by a few fans, and fists were flying - I chose that moment to leave with my wife (being European, I have seen these things turn ugly pretty fast at footie games and thought better than to sit around and wait to find out what happens next) and drove away. Ashamed, to be honest, to have had anything to do with this sport - to think this was my 28th GP ...

"Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > The fans who buy tickets and merchandise do NOT "keep the sport alive. > Television coverage, and the mega-bucks that flow to FOCA, is what funds > F1. > > And it ceased to be a "sport", per se, many years ago. > Racing? A sport? I think not.

The really shameful thing is that every side dug in thier heels. What it really points out is the need to have a rule to address the situation. I mean, what if the only Bridgestone cars were Minardi and Jordan? Is the same sort of thing supposed to happen again if one of those teams decided "Hey! guaranteed win!" and refused to compromise? Hell - what if the circuit owners discovered a problem with the tarmac in one corner that could have been fixed by a chicane or change in racing line - is the FIA going to revoke thier sanction of the race because the circuit changed? Why couldn't they have implemented a significant time penalty on the Michelin teams? I.e. - teams which have an issue causing an agreed-upon change in racing circuit or procedures for safety reasons shall incur a 30min penalty added to thier total race time, the total time to be used in determining the final scoring (like motorcycle GPs use for weather-related stoppages)? Then you still have a race, teams w/o the problem are guaranteed to finish ahead, and all the other teams can still have an internal battle for the remaining points. Am I crazy to even think this would work? Kendt

alex martini wrote:

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> "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > >>"alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in >>news:KBYte.25942$[email hidden]: >> >> >>>And Ferrari were not involved in the discussion, as Williams have >>>confirmed. >> >>However, it HAS been reported that 9 of the 10 teams(or 10 of 11, I'm too >>rushed to look it up) had supported a chicane. Since ALL teams votes were >>needed to make the chane, the fact no chicane went up can 'partially' be >>attributed to Ferrari. Remember, they also did not want to allow Paul >>Stoddard to run his 2004 spec machinery at Australia. One could argue >>they >>are being consistant. Or one could argue they are supporting their >>sponsors. Or one could argue they are fighting for every point. >> >>dh >> > > Yes well Ferrari spent 430 million dollars last year to win F1 - sounds like > they may be serious about the competition. They spent more than some > nations' GDP to win the world championship. > > As for Minardi and Jordan - why they decided to boycott the race is bizarre. > They had no problems running - which makes their decision purely one of > politics. Disgusting stuff indeed. > > Ferrari came to race. Ferrari raced. > > Michelin and its partner teams came to sabotage the FIA. And did so. They > did it in the US because it was not in europe, basically, and as far removed > from their core fans as possible.

Spot on Alex. They wouldn't dare do a thing like this at Monza, Monaco or San Marino. Glenn

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> 0 points > "Alan Gauton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > > I guess that depends on the definition of major. They didn't send McLaren or Renault. They did send Sauber and BAR. > > > I would argue that BAR are a major team - 2nd in the championship last > season, and part owned by Honda.

Yup, nil points, but more because the team admit they are going for performance rather than reliability (and largely failing this year). The car has run well more recently, and it's only race bans and non-races stopping them now really. -- AG Remove removes from address to remove anti-spam measures. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Alan Gauton E-Mail agauton @ postmaster.co.uk Never for me the lowered banner, never the last endeavour! (Damon Hill - 16th June 1999)

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:04:42 GMT, alex martini wrote: > The teams should be sued for inciting a riot. And endangering my life. Thank > God the riot squad got there so fast or else 120,000 rioting fans on the > stands would have caused serious injuries - there were scuffles and fights > wherever you looked. > Fights??? Who the heck would expect crowd violence at a Grand Prix? Tsk tsk. Cheers, uwe -- GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

BAR are on a suspended sentence after having been caught cheating - now they have been caught bringing the sport into disrepute. I have a feeling we won't be seeing BAR/HONDA anywhere near a race track for the rest of the season. "Alan Gauton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... >> 0 points >> "Alan Gauton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:[email hidden]... >> In article <[email hidden]>, >> [email hidden] says... >> > I guess that depends on the definition of major. They didn't send >> McLaren or Renault. They did send Sauber and BAR. >> >> >> I would argue that BAR are a major team - 2nd in the championship last >> season, and part owned by Honda. > > > Yup, nil points, but more because the team admit they are going for > performance rather than reliability (and largely failing this year). The > car has run well more recently, and it's only race bans and non-races > stopping them now really. > > -- > AG > > Remove removes from address to remove anti-spam measures. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Alan Gauton E-Mail agauton @ postmaster.co.uk > > Never for me the lowered banner, never the last endeavour! > (Damon Hill - 16th June 1999)

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Dave Henrie) wrote: > I'm suprised I'm not the first to address this... While we're on the subject, looks like an interesting week in F1 all round. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/4118472.stm Andrew McP

"alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:_Hcue.25992$[email hidden]... > BAR are on a suspended sentence after having been caught cheating - now > they have been caught bringing the sport into disrepute. I have a feeling > we won't be seeing BAR/HONDA anywhere near a race track for the rest of > the season. So then we have the contractual problem of the minimum number of starters. Is it 18 or 20? Maybe Minardi and Jordan can each field a third car...

Indeed; but if the FIA do not ban a team that have been found to be cheating and bringing the sport into disrepute all in the matter of three months, then it's a free for all. Somewhere someone's gonna have to draw the line. In 9 races so far this season, BAR have managed to be DQ'd from one - and Did Not Start three. Not bad eh - I'm sure Honda in Japan are having a good chuckle at how their reputed 400 million dollars are being spent. "Stephen F." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > "alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:_Hcue.25992$[email hidden]... >> BAR are on a suspended sentence after having been caught cheating - now >> they have been caught bringing the sport into disrepute. I have a feeling >> we won't be seeing BAR/HONDA anywhere near a race track for the rest of >> the season. > > So then we have the contractual problem of the minimum number of starters. > Is it 18 or 20? Maybe Minardi and Jordan can each field a third car... > >

"Stephen F." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > "alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:_Hcue.25992$[email hidden]... >> BAR are on a suspended sentence after having been caught cheating - now >> they have been caught bringing the sport into disrepute. I have a feeling >> we won't be seeing BAR/HONDA anywhere near a race track for the rest of >> the season. > > So then we have the contractual problem of the minimum number of starters. > Is it 18 or 20?

It gets even more fun if the Michelin teams stick together on this. IMO, there is a real possibility that should (say) BAR be banned, the other teams will withdraw too. GPWC for 2006, anyone? Tim -- ---------------- I love the smell of vomit in the newsgroup, it smells like...VICTORY! Jim M - Usenet out-take If you want to reply by email, replace the asterisks with underscores. Currently listening to: 'Grace' - Jeff Buckley

"alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3Pdue.25995$[email hidden]...

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> Indeed; but if the FIA do not ban a team that have been found to be > cheating and bringing the sport into disrepute all in the matter of three > months, then it's a free for all. Somewhere someone's gonna have to draw > the line. In 9 races so far this season, BAR have managed to be DQ'd from > one - and Did Not Start three. Not bad eh - I'm sure Honda in Japan are > having a good chuckle at how their reputed 400 million dollars are being > spent. >

Paul Stoddart's (potentially biased) timeline of events (on the Minardi website) makes it pretty clear that the only one to be given the boot should be Max Mosely. This guy is long past his "sell by" date and the FIA under Mosely is completely out of touch with what their actual role in motorsports should be.

There were guys in the 500? I watched the race, and according to ABC, Danica was the only person running. :-) I was Stand J, sec 24, row G seat 13 for the US"GP". I saw no fights, but I did get hit by an M&M by some 10 yr. old Ferrari fan with the loudest air horn I ever heard. I was fllipping off in the general direction of the pagoda for the first 15 laps or so and she must of mistook my one finger salutes as being towards the orange cars (i was not flipping off the cars who chose to run) so she flung a green M&M at my back. Evidently, she was a newbie and thought she was watching a race, and that by blowing her stupid air horn every time she saw the orange cars it would help Schumi "win". Her clueless Dad must not have explained to her that 20 cars usually go out on the track, and he proceeded to call everyone around us who were booing "sore losers". I almost clocked him in the mouth right then and there. That was the closest I came to seeing a fight. I'm surprised I didn't see any - I was also around some mighty pisssed off Colombians who just looked livid. I avoided them. What a sad day for open wheel racing. -- TigBits (o)Y(o) "alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:VN_te.25951$[email hidden]... I was sitting over T1 - section J or whatever - from whence the missiles reigned over the track - and where the guy who came 2nd in the 500 was sitting - ask him about the scuffles, he was virtually inside the scrum. "B Wegner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... That's funny - I sat at the end of the frontstretch toward F1-Turn 1 and didn't see anything resembling a riot occur - although I was prepared for one. I did see a few minor scuffles but they were mainly confined to the 'South American' grandstand. Prolly a lot of pissed off Colombians irate at not seeing Montoya run a single race lap. Indianapolis is not Detroit - we don't riot or burn and tip over cars. Where were you sitting? I agree that the fans WILL NOT forget when they vote with there dollars. Wag "alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:_EYte.25944$[email hidden]... The teams should be sued for inciting a riot. And endangering my life. Thank God the riot squad got there so fast or else 120,000 rioting fans on the stands would have caused serious injuries - there were scuffles and fights wherever you looked. All sponsors of F1 should take note; you are all involved with this fraud of paying customers. And I for one will not forget.

I called Michelin's customer service center yesterday (1 800 847 3435) yesterday and complained. The monkey on the phone blamed it all on the diamond grind and put out the company line of the Firestone/Bridgestone/Indy 500 connection. He claimed Michelin had no way of testing the new surface and that Firestone supplied their partner Bridgestone with all sorts of info re: the diamond grind gleaned from the 500. I laughed at him. No one is to blame here but Michelin, and they are accepting none. How utterly contemptable. -- TigBits (o)Y(o) "Malc" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:42b5eec1$0$2426$[email hidden]... > <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > The FIA's published correspondence on the matter clearly gave the > > teams an option to change tyres and take a penalty. Since many of them > > have stated publicly that they would have raced without championship > > points, etc, why could they not change the tyres, take the penalties, > > and get on with it? > > As I understand it the replacements weren't suitable either so swapping > tyres wasn't an option in the end. > > > The teams have claimed the FIA "refused" to allow them to run on > > different tyres. No they didn't, they refused to let them do it without > > penalties. That's a difference. > > I think you are right there, but as it turned out it wasn't an option AFAIK. > > > > Basically, Michelin screwed up, the teams ended up with sub-standard > > equipment, they were given an opportunity to race for the fans and they > > declined to take it. Blame the teams, blame Michelin, but don't blame > > the FIA for being fair. > > Michelin realised they had 'screwed up' on Friday, well before the race. > They are certainly responsible & I'm sure they will pay heavily for the > mistake, but they did attempt to correct their mistake and to my eyes the > chicane option was the lesser of many evils.. > > As I understand it the corner has been there for years (of course) but the > 'diamond cut' surface was new this season. imo someone at Michelin didn't do > enough homework & assumed a 'regular' track surface. > > Mistakes are common & part of motorsport, how the problems that arose from > that mistake were dealt with was the reason for the sparse grid. > > Malc. > >

Bah I meant sitting in the stands, the guy who came 2nd in the 500 - he was signing autographs - then some guy threw a can on the track that missed Rubens by not much at all, at which point someone tackled him, and there was the usual fisticuffs. "TigBits" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:1Qfue.1006381$[email hidden]... There were guys in the 500? I watched the race, and according to ABC, Danica was the only person running. :-) I was Stand J, sec 24, row G seat 13 for the US"GP". I saw no fights, but I did get hit by an M&M by some 10 yr. old Ferrari fan with the loudest air horn I ever heard. I was fllipping off in the general direction of the pagoda for the first 15 laps or so and she must of mistook my one finger salutes as being towards the orange cars (i was not flipping off the cars who chose to run) so she flung a green M&M at my back. Evidently, she was a newbie and thought she was watching a race, and that by blowing her stupid air horn every time she saw the orange cars it would help Schumi "win". Her clueless Dad must not have explained to her that 20 cars usually go out on the track, and he proceeded to call everyone around us who were booing "sore losers". I almost clocked him in the mouth right then and there. That was the closest I came to seeing a fight. I'm surprised I didn't see any - I was also around some mighty pisssed off Colombians who just looked livid. I avoided them. What a sad day for open wheel racing. -- TigBits (o)Y(o) "alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:VN_te.25951$[email hidden]... I was sitting over T1 - section J or whatever - from whence the missiles reigned over the track - and where the guy who came 2nd in the 500 was sitting - ask him about the scuffles, he was virtually inside the scrum. "B Wegner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... That's funny - I sat at the end of the frontstretch toward F1-Turn 1 and didn't see anything resembling a riot occur - although I was prepared for one. I did see a few minor scuffles but they were mainly confined to the 'South American' grandstand. Prolly a lot of pissed off Colombians irate at not seeing Montoya run a single race lap. Indianapolis is not Detroit - we don't riot or burn and tip over cars. Where were you sitting? I agree that the fans WILL NOT forget when they vote with there dollars. Wag "alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:_EYte.25944$[email hidden]... The teams should be sued for inciting a riot. And endangering my life. Thank God the riot squad got there so fast or else 120,000 rioting fans on the stands would have caused serious injuries - there were scuffles and fights wherever you looked. All sponsors of F1 should take note; you are all involved with this fraud of paying customers. And I for one will not forget.

Sure, Stoddard the sheepshagger would say that - since he decided NOT to race even though his tyres were fine - I wonder what his excuse was for trying to boycott racing - I like Ron Dennis too much to race? "Stephen F." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:42b981ba$[email hidden]...

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> > "alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:3Pdue.25995$[email hidden]... >> Indeed; but if the FIA do not ban a team that have been found to be >> cheating and bringing the sport into disrepute all in the matter of three >> months, then it's a free for all. Somewhere someone's gonna have to draw >> the line. In 9 races so far this season, BAR have managed to be DQ'd from >> one - and Did Not Start three. Not bad eh - I'm sure Honda in Japan are >> having a good chuckle at how their reputed 400 million dollars are being >> spent. >> > > Paul Stoddart's (potentially biased) timeline of events (on the Minardi > website) makes it pretty clear that the only one to be given the boot > should be Max Mosely. This guy is long past his "sell by" date and the > FIA under Mosely is completely out of touch with what their actual role in > motorsports should be. > > >

Indeed; only problem is, without a sanction from FIA, precisely which tracks would they run? If the FIA takes away every nation's rights who hold a GP, that would mean - no more rally, no more 100s of different events in tyhose nations, and every single racing series would then have to break away from the governing body - should be fun. Of course, I wouldn't put it past the combined egos of the break away teams to universally destroy all forms of motor racing for their own gains. In fact, I'm sure they - and Michelin - would love to do precisely this. "Helicon_One" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:d9buft$q1v$[email hidden]...

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> "Stephen F." <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> >> "alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:_Hcue.25992$[email hidden]... >>> BAR are on a suspended sentence after having been caught cheating - now >>> they have been caught bringing the sport into disrepute. I have a >>> feeling we won't be seeing BAR/HONDA anywhere near a race track for the >>> rest of the season. >> >> So then we have the contractual problem of the minimum number of >> starters. Is it 18 or 20? > > It gets even more fun if the Michelin teams stick together on this. IMO, > there is a real possibility that should (say) BAR be banned, the other > teams will withdraw too. GPWC for 2006, anyone? > > Tim > -- > ---------------- > I love the smell of vomit in the newsgroup, it smells like...VICTORY! > Jim M - Usenet out-take > > If you want to reply by email, replace the asterisks with underscores. > > Currently listening to: 'Grace' - Jeff Buckley >

"Uwe Sch�rkamp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > I would love to see F1 stage a race at Elkart Lake ("Road America"). > > Cheers, uwe > > > -- > GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61 >

Me too. I think it is the best track in the US to host F1, but the big problem is access for all the trucks and equipment from Milwaukee or O'Hare to get in there. I ran on the old track (pre-1968) and the next rendition in the early 70's in SCCA silly stock amateur classes. I drove a TR-3 in the mid 60s and ended with a Mazda RX-4 when it just became much too expensive to compete with the so-called amateurs with factory backing. I love the old track. I ran strictly in the Midwest, with the exception of one time at Road Atlanta (an underfunded disaster). The track was and still is very fast and if Michelin couldn't get a tire right for Indy, I doubt they could for Road America either.....:-). I have not been back there to see the newest rendition of the track, but have ran around it on TA for N2003. At least now when you leave the track you don't end up far into the depths of the forest of the Kettle Moraine.........:-) A.J. Foyt took one of those excursions and was never the same after that. Ed

F1 tracks need to be close to an airport - so the criminals and crooks and their corporate sponsors can make a quick getaway with the cash. "Ed Medlin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:YGgue.1523$[email hidden]...

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> > "Uwe Sch�rkamp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> >> I would love to see F1 stage a race at Elkart Lake ("Road America"). >> >> Cheers, uwe >> >> >> -- >> GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61 >> > Me too. I think it is the best track in the US to host F1, but the big > problem is access for all the trucks and equipment from Milwaukee or > O'Hare to get in there. I ran on the old track (pre-1968) and the next > rendition in the early 70's in SCCA silly stock amateur classes. I drove a > TR-3 in the mid 60s and ended with a Mazda RX-4 when it just became much > too expensive to compete with the so-called amateurs with factory backing. > I love the old track. I ran strictly in the Midwest, with the exception of > one time at Road Atlanta (an underfunded disaster). The track was and > still is very fast and if Michelin couldn't get a tire right for Indy, I > doubt they could for Road America either.....:-). I have not been back > there to see the newest rendition of the track, but have ran around it on > TA for N2003. At least now when you leave the track you don't end up far > into the depths of the forest of the Kettle Moraine.........:-) A.J. Foyt > took one of those excursions and was never the same after that. > > Ed >

"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> "alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in > news:KBYte.25942$[email hidden]: > >> And Ferrari were not involved in the discussion, as Williams have >> confirmed. > > However, it HAS been reported that 9 of the 10 teams(or 10 of 11, I'm too > rushed to look it up) had supported a chicane. Since ALL teams votes were > needed to make the chane, the fact no chicane went up can 'partially' be > attributed to Ferrari. Remember, they also did not want to allow Paul > Stoddard to run his 2004 spec machinery at Australia. One could argue > they > are being consistant. Or one could argue they are supporting their > sponsors. Or one could argue they are fighting for every point. > > dh >

Todt is such a smartarse moron, he suggested the Michelin runners could use the pit lane each lap - imagine asking this idiot what his oipinion is? Every proposal other than the chicane for all runners was idiotic - the fans would have probably been more pissed off to have their intelligence insulted. Most suggestions implied the fans would think they were getting the real deal - laughable nonsense. The FIA and Todt are a bunch of arseholes!

"mcewena" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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>> So before you blame Michelin for everything, dwell on that a little. >> The >>FIA and Bridgestone want to put it all on Michelin. The FIA scheduled this >>race without testing. Bridgestone had information they probably should >>have >>made available to Michelin - imagine if Ralph's crash wasn't one he walked >>away from? > > What info? Like hey the track was ground? Anybody watching the 500 > would know that, I'm sure Michelin could have sent engineers to inspect > the track and got useful information without actually running an F1 car > on it. >

Gee, Michelin will be knocking down your door tomorrow. You just go and take a quick look at the track and tell them what compound/construction to use. Maybe you can give them a hand selling off all that now obsolete computer/analysis equiptment they forked out millions for too? PLONK!

"Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:42b9aae7$0$784$[email hidden]...

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> > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> "alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in >> news:KBYte.25942$[email hidden]: >> >>> And Ferrari were not involved in the discussion, as Williams have >>> confirmed. >> >> However, it HAS been reported that 9 of the 10 teams(or 10 of 11, I'm too >> rushed to look it up) had supported a chicane. Since ALL teams votes >> were >> needed to make the chane, the fact no chicane went up can 'partially' be >> attributed to Ferrari. Remember, they also did not want to allow Paul >> Stoddard to run his 2004 spec machinery at Australia. One could argue >> they >> are being consistant. Or one could argue they are supporting their >> sponsors. Or one could argue they are fighting for every point. >> >> dh >> > > Todt is such a smartarse moron, he suggested the Michelin runners could > use the pit lane each lap - imagine asking this idiot what his oipinion > is? Every proposal other than the chicane for all runners was idiotic - > the fans would have probably been more pissed off to have their > intelligence insulted. Most suggestions implied the fans would think they > were getting the real deal - laughable nonsense. The FIA and Todt are a > bunch of arseholes!

Yeah sure, Ferrari is to blame because Michelin couldn't build a tyre for the Indy oval. And Todt is to blame because the Michelin teams decided - since they were at fault - to demand precisely what should be done by the FIA, Ferrari, and everyone else to correct their own mistake. Yup - and while we're at it, can Michelin change the configuration of all tracks they race on so they can get an advantage? And how about a 50bhp reduction in Ferrari's engine output - hey, why not, Michelin write the rules, and everyone that play by the rules - like Bridgestone, who build tyres to last - well, they can just go piss off. After all, ferrari raced at the USGP - it's abundantly clear they were at fault for doing so. They should not have raced like the rest of the teams - that is, after all, why they came to the US right?

So it would have been ok to have a Michelin driver get killed for the sake of Bridgestone's edge? That's not just sportsmanship out the window, it's human decency. Welcome to the jungle...............................monkey boy! And btw, there was no testing at IMS at all. "B Wegner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... It is reckless to not give your competitor information? ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME....That's rather Socialist of you......maybe Intel should start sharing technical data with AMD. Better yet, let's have the CIA start sharing intelligence with terrorists. The only negligence was on Michelin for not bringing a better tire. The FIA warned them several weeks ago after Raikonnen's blow out not to sacrifice safety over speed. Bullshit.......Sauber and BAR both tested at Indy (Davidson and Massa). So they did test and those teams apparently didn't have any problems or if they did, Michelin did fix them. Wag "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:42b858ed$0$27859$[email hidden]... "Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... >I heard that at a tire test at Indy, Michelin didn't send any major teams >to do a test. > No one did - no one tested at Indy. And with only one week between Canada and Indy, no time to test. I'd say they should go to any track on the schedule for testing as soon as any surfacing or geometrical changes are made in future. And for the remote places where you can't easily test, always have 2 weeks between races and let them test at that track as a lead up in the week before the race. An issue I think has been overlooked so far, is the issue of possible poor sportsmanship, and maybe even criminal negligence, on the part of Bridgestone. If they had information from the Indy 500 that they knew would have made it dangerous for them as well as Michelin had they not been privvy to it, then to not share this with Michelin is wreckless on their part. So before you blame Michelin for everything, dwell on that a little. The FIA and Bridgestone want to put it all on Michelin. The FIA scheduled this race without testing. Bridgestone had information they probably should have made available to Michelin - imagine if Ralph's crash wasn't one he walked away from?

"Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:42b9acc9$0$794$[email hidden]...

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> > "mcewena" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >>> So before you blame Michelin for everything, dwell on that a little. >>> The >>>FIA and Bridgestone want to put it all on Michelin. The FIA scheduled >>>this >>>race without testing. Bridgestone had information they probably should >>>have >>>made available to Michelin - imagine if Ralph's crash wasn't one he >>>walked >>>away from? >> >> What info? Like hey the track was ground? Anybody watching the 500 >> would know that, I'm sure Michelin could have sent engineers to inspect >> the track and got useful information without actually running an F1 car >> on it. >> > > Gee, Michelin will be knocking down your door tomorrow. You just go and > take a quick look at the track and tell them what compound/construction to > use. Maybe you can give them a hand selling off all that now obsolete > computer/analysis equiptment they forked out millions for too? > > PLONK!

Nah Byron, they'll be asking you for advice on how to tell the US public why Michelin's inability (and indifference) to build a tyre for US roads is actually Bridgestone's fault. PLONK indeed.

Getting killed, last time I checked, is why these cowards get paid the money they get paid - otherwise we'd be watching sim racers, better racing, better skill, and now, more danger too. "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:42b9adc3$0$787$[email hidden]... So it would have been ok to have a Michelin driver get killed for the sake of Bridgestone's edge? That's not just sportsmanship out the window, it's human decency. Welcome to the jungle...............................monkey boy! And btw, there was no testing at IMS at all. "B Wegner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... It is reckless to not give your competitor information? ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME....That's rather Socialist of you......maybe Intel should start sharing technical data with AMD. Better yet, let's have the CIA start sharing intelligence with terrorists. The only negligence was on Michelin for not bringing a better tire. The FIA warned them several weeks ago after Raikonnen's blow out not to sacrifice safety over speed. Bullshit.......Sauber and BAR both tested at Indy (Davidson and Massa). So they did test and those teams apparently didn't have any problems or if they did, Michelin did fix them. Wag "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:42b858ed$0$27859$[email hidden]... "Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... >I heard that at a tire test at Indy, Michelin didn't send any major teams >to do a test. > No one did - no one tested at Indy. And with only one week between Canada and Indy, no time to test. I'd say they should go to any track on the schedule for testing as soon as any surfacing or geometrical changes are made in future. And for the remote places where you can't easily test, always have 2 weeks between races and let them test at that track as a lead up in the week before the race. An issue I think has been overlooked so far, is the issue of possible poor sportsmanship, and maybe even criminal negligence, on the part of Bridgestone. If they had information from the Indy 500 that they knew would have made it dangerous for them as well as Michelin had they not been privvy to it, then to not share this with Michelin is wreckless on their part. So before you blame Michelin for everything, dwell on that a little. The FIA and Bridgestone want to put it all on Michelin. The FIA scheduled this race without testing. Bridgestone had information they probably should have made available to Michelin - imagine if Ralph's crash wasn't one he walked away from?

And you're not even meaning to be funny, are you? LOL. "They tested their Indy compound tyres at Monza". Come on buddy, have a think about that, FFS! Complete bullshit, meet mcewena. Mcewena, meet complete bullshit. Oh, your already well aquainted? PLONK II "mcewena" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> >Bullshit.......Sauber and BAR both tested at Indy (Davidson and Massa). > >So they did test and those >teams apparently didn't have any problems or > >if they did, Michelin did fix them. > > > Facts meet Byron, Bryon meet facts... They tested their Indy compound > tires at Monza.... > > http://www.formula1.com/news/3119.html >

The excuse was "what's the point of a 6 car field or idiotic proposals otherwise?". What's the excuse of the FIA to have no proper contingency for this? They are crude, inflexible and vindictive - the core needs replacing. This is a very foreseeable circumstance with the present rules and all they can do is say "oh, it's their fault and their fault". Pathetic! "alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Kdgue.26000$[email hidden]...

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> Sure, Stoddard the sheepshagger would say that - since he decided NOT to > race even though his tyres were fine - I wonder what his excuse was for > trying to boycott racing - I like Ron Dennis too much to race? > "Stephen F." <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:42b981ba$[email hidden]... >> >> "alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:3Pdue.25995$[email hidden]... >>> Indeed; but if the FIA do not ban a team that have been found to be >>> cheating and bringing the sport into disrepute all in the matter of >>> three months, then it's a free for all. Somewhere someone's gonna have >>> to draw the line. In 9 races so far this season, BAR have managed to be >>> DQ'd from one - and Did Not Start three. Not bad eh - I'm sure Honda in >>> Japan are having a good chuckle at how their reputed 400 million dollars >>> are being spent. >>> >> >> Paul Stoddart's (potentially biased) timeline of events (on the Minardi >> website) makes it pretty clear that the only one to be given the boot >> should be Max Mosely. This guy is long past his "sell by" date and the >> FIA under Mosely is completely out of touch with what their actual role >> in motorsports should be. >> >> >> > >

"alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Ofgue.26002$[email hidden]...

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> Indeed; only problem is, without a sanction from FIA, precisely which > tracks would they run? If the FIA takes away every nation's rights who > hold a GP, that would mean - no more rally, no more 100s of different > events in tyhose nations, and every single racing series would then have > to break away from the governing body - should be fun. Of course, I > wouldn't put it past the combined egos of the break away teams to > universally destroy all forms of motor racing for their own gains. In > fact, I'm sure they - and Michelin - would love to do precisely this.

kettle.....black

"TigBits" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:VXfue.1006418$[email hidden]...

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>I called Michelin's customer service center yesterday (1 800 847 3435) > yesterday and complained. The monkey on the phone blamed it all on the > diamond grind and put out the company line of the > Firestone/Bridgestone/Indy > 500 connection. He claimed Michelin had no way of testing the new surface > and that Firestone supplied their partner Bridgestone with all sorts of > info > re: the diamond grind gleaned from the 500. I laughed at him. No one is to > blame here but Michelin, and they are accepting none. How utterly > contemptable. >

The only contemptible one here is you. Where's the laughable bit? Are you all really so utterly stupid that you can't see that Bridgestone had data on the newly resurfaced track that Michelin did not. I suppose this is completely irrelevent and has no bearing on what occured at all? Get off the idiot Ferrari owned FIA bandwagon and use your brain!

Alex don't waste your time with this guy.........there will always be people who will deflect blame and those who condone it. He doesn't deserve the time of your response - and mine either. Wag "alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:49iue.26008$[email hidden]... Getting killed, last time I checked, is why these cowards get paid the money they get paid - otherwise we'd be watching sim racers, better racing, better skill, and now, more danger too.

Oh give it up Byron; you're just a F1 newbie Ferrari-hater - dime a dozen mate. Take your xenophobia elsewhere. "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:42b9b50a$0$787$[email hidden]...

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> > "TigBits" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:VXfue.1006418$[email hidden]... >>I called Michelin's customer service center yesterday (1 800 847 3435) >> yesterday and complained. The monkey on the phone blamed it all on the >> diamond grind and put out the company line of the >> Firestone/Bridgestone/Indy >> 500 connection. He claimed Michelin had no way of testing the new surface >> and that Firestone supplied their partner Bridgestone with all sorts of >> info >> re: the diamond grind gleaned from the 500. I laughed at him. No one is >> to >> blame here but Michelin, and they are accepting none. How utterly >> contemptable. >> > > The only contemptible one here is you. Where's the laughable bit? > > Are you all really so utterly stupid that you can't see that > Bridgestone had data on the newly resurfaced track that Michelin did not. > I suppose this is completely irrelevent and has no bearing on what occured > at all? > > Get off the idiot Ferrari owned FIA bandwagon and use your brain! >

"Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:42b9b50a$0$787$[email hidden]...

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> > "TigBits" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:VXfue.1006418$[email hidden]... > >I called Michelin's customer service center yesterday (1 800 847 3435) > > yesterday and complained. The monkey on the phone blamed it all on the > > diamond grind and put out the company line of the > > Firestone/Bridgestone/Indy > > 500 connection. He claimed Michelin had no way of testing the new

surface > > and that Firestone supplied their partner Bridgestone with all sorts of > > info > > re: the diamond grind gleaned from the 500. I laughed at him. No one isto

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> > blame here but Michelin, and they are accepting none. How utterly > > contemptable. > > > > The only contemptible one here is you. Where's the laughable bit? > > Are you all really so utterly stupid that you can't see that

Bridgestone > had data on the newly resurfaced track that Michelin did not. I supposethis > is completely irrelevent and has no bearing on what occured at all? > > Get off the idiot Ferrari owned FIA bandwagon and use your brain! Hi- Michelin is the largest tire manufacturer in the world. The IMS was not repaved and/or ground the night before the race, it was done months before. Since Michelin did not schedule a test at the newly ground track, I hold them responsible. My friend, "the laughable bit" is that Michelin will accept NO RESPONSIBILITY at all for what happened Sunday, when in fact the blame lies firmly on their shoulders, no one elses' . Please tell me why you think I'm on a bandwagon - there is no way that the FIA should change the rules hours, even minutes, before a race because a team or teams has/have faulty equipment. Don't get me wrong, it sure would've been nice if Bernie OR Michelin would've budged a little, as I'd have loved to seen any sort of different show than the shit we all saw. Bottom line: In my opinion, Michelin couldn't make a safe enough tire to go around a track that EVERYONE knew had been resurfaced and ground, therefore changing the characteristics it had from the previous year. The responsibility was theirs and theirs alone to investigate and test at the resurfaced track and produce a safe tire for the race. As we all know, they failed. -- TigBits (o)Y(o)

"Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:42b9b50a$0$787$[email hidden] u: > Are you all really so utterly stupid that you can't see that > Bridgestone > had data on the newly resurfaced track that Michelin did not. I > suppose this is completely irrelevent and has no bearing on what > occured at all? > AT some point, Bridgestone/Firestone had to run on the newly grinded surface. As a rule, I only pay partial attention to the Biggest Spectacle in Racing, but offhand, I don't recall any rash of Firestone tires shredding. Keep in mind, Michelin only had to build a tire that would handle the load at 180mph and only once per lap for 78ish laps. Firestone came to Indy with a tire that did 4 turns per lap at over 200mph for probably 30 laps per stint. (well except for that AJ Foyt Jr guy, I don't think he broke 200mph on the straights) dave henrie

Did you read the link I included? http://www.formula1.com/news/3119.html Given that every time an F1 car comes out of the garage it's got 100 photographers around it, show me the photos of the Michelin tire test at IMS then?

I was solidly in the corner of those blaming the FIA and Mosely until I read this..... http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=189457&FS=F1 He's not the most articulate guy and his analogies stink, but his fundamental point is a good one. If a competitor brings deficient equipment to a competition, it's unfair to the other teams to change the rules to remove the disadvantage. The fact that it was over half the field doesn't change that. Michelin pressed the envelope too far, got caught without a backup, and tried to have the FIA save them by removing any disadvantage caused by their screw up, with a chicane. I can't see how that would have been the right thing to do.

"Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I was solidly in the corner of those blaming the FIA and Mosely until I > read this..... > > http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=189457&FS=F1 Try this one instead & see if it changes your mind back again: http://www.motorsport.com/magazine/feature.asp?C=Musings&D=2005-06-21 Malc.

> Try this one instead & see if it changes your mind back again: > > http://www.motorsport.com/magazine/feature.asp?C=Musings&D=2005-06-21 > So we're meant to feel sorry for Michelin just because some former Goodyear employee is looking for a new job ? I'm afraid not. They(Michelin) pulled this stunt for a reason that will become clear in a few weeks time . They are a greedy, monopolizing POS, just like the rest.

"Malc" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:42ba6d36$0$41929$[email hidden]...

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> "Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> I was solidly in the corner of those blaming the FIA and Mosely until I >> read this..... >> >> http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=189457&FS=F1 > > Try this one instead & see if it changes your mind back again: > > http://www.motorsport.com/magazine/feature.asp?C=Musings&D=2005-06-21 > > Malc. >

I can follow his logic. However, in many of his examples, the solution was for (a) the original supplier to drop back down to their harder, heavier, slower tire to ensure safe running, and Michelin failed to bring an adequate backup, (b) the other supplier provides a shed-load of tires to run the whole field, or (c) the race was postponed for a week until appropriate tires could be delivered. I doubt (b) was a possibility, as I can't imagine Bridgestone made enough Indy tires for a full field of 20 cars just for the hell of it. Would the fans accept (c)? Would that be any better? Nevertheless, I agree that the FIA should have bent, even considering the "sporting" argument. The spirit of sporting competition is to test a full field of competitors with an appropriately challenging task. Even myself as a competitor in technical sports requiring skills, a thorough understanding of the course, and top-level equipment (whitewater slalom kayaking, mountain biking) my competitor's instinct still does not side with Mosely and the FIA. We have moved gates and altered a line here or there in our races, even though the top guy was hitting it without problem. If the top guy could nail the line every time even with the difficult course, or because he had a better boat/bike, in the end he still blew us all away after we tweaked a gate or two. Course designers at the World Cup level of skiing and boating have also moved gates, on the day of a race and after practice, so rules even at the international level are malleable. The biggest protests in World Cup slalom are usually not because a gate was moved, but rather because a gate *wasn't* moved and in the end half the field of elite athletes couldn't complete the course. It's not a perfect analogy as the Indy course has been there for years and has been successfully negotiated by all runners previously, however the track surface has changed. This is similar to a change in water level on a well known river, erosion ditches on the Mammoth MTB downhill or different snow conditions on the Hannenkam. No one is talking here about bringing slalom skis to a downhill race, bringing a city bike to a MTB downhill or a rubber raft to a whitewater slalom. Michelin didn't bring passenger cars to the Formula One race (nevertheless I still fault them for not looking adequately into the consequence of the resurface and not bringing a proper fall-back tire and don't agree if they get off without any penalty). Would the extra braking for the chicane have been dangerous, as Mosely claims? I think the teams were in the best position to judge that. As was noted in the articles, they are well aware of the liability issues and probably offered the most reasonable and well-considered alternative. And the precendent has already been set with last-minute course and/or procedure changes in F1 in the last decade, so Mosely and the FIA are hypocrites. Stephen ------------ And now a word from our sponsor ------------------ For a quality usenet news server, try DNEWS, easy to install, fast, efficient and reliable. For home servers or carrier class installations with millions of users it will allow you to grow! ---- See http://netwinsite.com/sponsor/sponsor_dnews.htm ----

In article <42ba6d36$0$41929$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Malc) wrote: > > http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=189457&FS=F1 > http://www.motorsport.com/magazine/feature.asp?C=Musings&D=2005-06-21 Those links are well worth reading to illustrate the complex nature of the problem. F1 is constantly pushing the limits and sooner or later things get messy. At least this time things were messy but safe. Nobody died. I might be less calm about the whole thing if I'd flown halfway across the States to see it. But then I doubt I'd walk to the end of my street to get deafened, sunburnt, and bored after the first lap, let alone fly :-) Andrew McP

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> AT some point, Bridgestone/Firestone had to run on the newly grinded > surface. As a rule, I only pay partial attention to the Biggest Spectacle > in Racing, but offhand, I don't recall any rash of Firestone tires > shredding. Keep in mind, Michelin only had to build a tire that would > handle the load at 180mph and only once per lap for 78ish laps. Firestone > came to Indy with a tire that did 4 turns per lap at over 200mph for > probably 30 laps per stint. (well except for that AJ Foyt Jr guy, I don't > think he broke 200mph on the straights) > > dave henrie

Agree 100%. The very sad part about this entire debacle is that due to Speed Channel's broadcasts F1 had been making some progress with the US fans. Especially this year with the closer racing. All that it now lost. The sadder thing is that I just shod mine and my wife's cars with new, and expensive Michelin tires. Damn..................:-) I could have bought 8 16" Yokohamas, Goodyears or even Firestones at almost half the price............kick self in ass.......... Ed

I thought Stoddards timeline was interesting. http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=189438&FS=F1 It's inconsevable that Jean Todt wasn't invited/interested to the same discussions as the Bridgestone minows, but it gives him plausible denyability. Max and Ferrari were 100% right in my opinion AND 100% wrong. They won the battle, got max points by following the letter of the rules, now F1 and Ferrari sales will suffer because of it. They won the battle but lost the war.

"Ed Medlin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:80yue.6291$[email hidden]... > > AT some point, Bridgestone/Firestone had to run on the newly grinded > > surface. As a rule, I only pay partial attention to the BiggestSpectacle > > in Racing, but offhand, I don't recall any rash of Firestone tires > > shredding. Keep in mind, Michelin only had to build a tire that would > > handle the load at 180mph and only once per lap for 78ish laps.Firestone > > came to Indy with a tire that did 4 turns per lap at over 200mph for > > probably 30 laps per stint. (well except for that AJ Foyt Jr guy, Idon't > > think he broke 200mph on the straights) > > > > dave henrie > > Agree 100%. The very sad part about this entire debacle is that due toSpeed

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> Channel's broadcasts F1 had been making some progress with the US fans. > Especially this year with the closer racing. All that it now lost. The > sadder thing is that I just shod mine and my wife's cars with new, and > expensive Michelin tires. Damn..................:-) I could have bought 8 > 16" Yokohamas, Goodyears or even Firestones at almost half the > price............kick self in ass.......... > > > Ed

Take them back to the retailer you purchased them from and claim that you feel that they are unsafe, rough-riding, too black - whatever.... just take them back. I did. Pro-rated return of money for 2 months use and I still had some left over after purchasing 4 new Bridgestones. Told the dude straight up why I was returning them too. I live in Neckville, so the tire guy was clueless, but he did refund my money and fix me up with the 'Stones. -- TigBits (o)Y(o)

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> > I was solidly in the corner of those blaming the FIA and Mosely until I > > read this..... > > > > http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=189457&FS=F1 > > Try this one instead & see if it changes your mind back again: > > http://www.motorsport.com/magazine/feature.asp?C=Musings&D=2005-06-21 >

Not at all. Sounds like the guy is trying to get a job at Michelin. Michelin messed up trying to make a faster tire than Bridgestone and didn't have a backup which could have been used with an appropriate penalty. So they threatened to screw up the race (and then did so) is an effort to get the FIA to totally cancel out _Michelin's_ mistake by installing a chicane or running the event not for points. To put on the race under either of those conditions would have been responding to blackmail. The 6 guys on Bridgestones fully deserved to win places 1-6. They had better "cars". Jordon/Minardi shouldn't be embarrased, their heads should be high. The Michelin guys _should_ have been fighting for seventh-back. Anything else would have been a travesty.

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>"alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote > Best moment, as I say, were the drivers waving at the kids before the > race - knowing they were gonna screw everyone over. Now that is the > definition of cold. Can you imagine how they were joking amongst > themselves at the yank suckers in the stands? Priceless moment; think > Coulthard and the Brits would have done the parade lap were this > Silverstone? Or Fisichella were this Monza? I don't think so; they crapped > all over that American crowd. Ugly stuff indeed.

Well I wouldn't blame the drivers here. They are under contract. Coulthard made it clear he wanted to race on the radio in the TV feed, but he had no decision on that. Trust me, the drivers probably all wanted to drive until the last second before some team manager told them on the radio to enter the pits at the end of the formation lap. I mean they are F1 drivers. Why wouldn't they want to race each time they can? I sure wouldn't waste any chance I have to race in F1! It's not like they will all race in F1 for decades. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

>"Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote... > The fans who buy tickets and merchandise do NOT "keep the sport alive. > Television coverage, and the mega-bucks that flow to FOCA, is what funds > F1. It still couldn't be marketed at all, there wouldn't be those big bucks, if there was nobody in the grandstands. Those people there attending, they are the same that will watch the other races on the TV coverage. "The show must go on" -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

>"alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote > F1 tracks need to be close to an airport - so the criminals and crooks and > their corporate sponsors can make a quick getaway with the cash. So let's do the race in Cleveland next year at the Burke Airport <G> "Oh look here's the BAR team already flying out the track while the race is still on" -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

>"Andrew MacPherson" <[email hidden]> wrote > Those links are well worth reading to illustrate the complex nature of the > problem. F1 is constantly pushing the limits and sooner or later things > get messy. At least this time things were messy but safe. Nobody died. Exactly, just imagine both tyre manufacturers for the past 2 years trying to fight hard, in both political and racing aspects of the sport, to be the single manufacturer of F1, all the money and brain... They sometime push the limit too far, supposidely the tyre was too fragile on the sidewall since it had a way to inflate itself and have a bigger circumference for the front straight. Thank god there are still people there balancing between the desire of everybody to have a faster car, and safety. A good balance is needed, so we don't go back to 1994, but at the same time we can't be too fearful, or else the debacle of last week happens. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

lol; even better, they could turn their wings around and fly away as they approach Turn one on the warm up lap! "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:PMEue.78573$[email hidden]...

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> >"alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote >> F1 tracks need to be close to an airport - so the criminals and crooks >> and their corporate sponsors can make a quick getaway with the cash. > > > So let's do the race in Cleveland next year at the Burke Airport <G> > > > > "Oh look here's the BAR team already flying out the track while the race > is still on" > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > >

"alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Q6iue.26007$[email hidden]... > Nah Byron, they'll be asking you for advice on how to tell the US public > why Michelin's inability (and indifference) to build a tyre for US roads > is actually Bridgestone's fault. > Well, if Bridgestone had info about U.S. roads, they have demonstrated, that even in the event where it might save lives, they would not be prepared to share that info. Competitive edge is far more important of course!

"alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:b4iue.26006$[email hidden]...

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> > Yup - and while we're at it, can Michelin change the configuration of all > tracks they race on so they can get an advantage? And how about a 50bhp > reduction in Ferrari's engine output - hey, why not, Michelin write the > rules, and everyone that play by the rules - like Bridgestone, who build > tyres to last - well, they can just go piss off. > > After all, ferrari raced at the USGP - it's abundantly clear they were at > fault for doing so. They should not have raced like the rest of the > teams - that is, after all, why they came to the US right? >

Though ferrari had no say ultimately, Todt made it clear he would not agree to any of the proposals that provided a genuine race. That is biting the hand that feeds you. That represents ferrari as a bunch of wimps that will take a win any way they can get it - well, I wouldn't even call it a "win" - they simply got the points. But they were happy to be crapping all over their own bread and butter in the process!

One of the best disguised waving of the white flag I've ever seen! :) "B Wegner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... Alex don't waste your time with this guy.........there will always be people who will deflect blame and those who condone it. He doesn't deserve the time of your response - and mine either. Wag "alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:49iue.26008$[email hidden]... Getting killed, last time I checked, is why these cowards get paid the money they get paid - otherwise we'd be watching sim racers, better racing, better skill, and now, more danger too.

"alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:49iue.26008$[email hidden]... Getting killed, last time I checked, is why these cowards get paid the money they get paid - otherwise we'd be watching sim racers, better racing, better skill, and now, more danger too. Cowards??? LOL. The drivers got no say!

If the drivers got no say, why did they have a meeting before hand - and btw they were in the cars, and could have driven had they wanted to - simple, no? What would happen - Coulthard fired for driving at USGP? I think it probably states in his contract - just a guess - that he's hired to drive cars. I think it would be difficult to fire an accountant for accounting - or a driver for driving. "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:42bb1f8f$0$781$[email hidden]... "alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:49iue.26008$[email hidden]... Getting killed, last time I checked, is why these cowards get paid the money they get paid - otherwise we'd be watching sim racers, better racing, better skill, and now, more danger too. Cowards??? LOL. The drivers got no say!

Exactly wtf are you on about? You making my point FOR me now? "mcewena" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Did you read the link I included? > > http://www.formula1.com/news/3119.html > > Given that every time an F1 car comes out of the garage it's got 100 > photographers around it, show me the photos of the Michelin tire test > at IMS then? >

"TigBits" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Khjue.348174$[email hidden]...

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> Hi- > > Michelin is the largest tire manufacturer in the world. The IMS was not > repaved and/or ground the night before the race, it was done months > before. > Since Michelin did not schedule a test at the newly ground track, I hold > them responsible. My friend, "the laughable bit" is that Michelin will > accept NO RESPONSIBILITY at all for what happened Sunday, when in fact the > blame lies firmly on their shoulders, no one elses' > . > Please tell me why you think I'm on a bandwagon - there is no way that the > FIA should change the rules hours, even minutes, before a race because a > team or teams has/have faulty equipment. Don't get me wrong, it sure > would've been nice if Bernie OR Michelin would've budged a little, as I'd > have loved to seen any sort of different show than the shit we all saw. > > Bottom line: In my opinion, Michelin couldn't make a safe enough tire to > go > around a track that EVERYONE knew had been resurfaced and ground, > therefore > changing the characteristics it had from the previous year. The > responsibility was theirs and theirs alone to investigate and test at the > resurfaced track and produce a safe tire for the race. As we all know, > they > failed. >

The FIA provided no opportunity to test here - you forget F1 has a zillion rules reguarding testing. And the F1 track at IMS needs to be especially set up.

"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > AT some point, Bridgestone/Firestone had to run on the newly grinded > surface. As a rule, I only pay partial attention to the Biggest Spectacle > in Racing, but offhand, I don't recall any rash of Firestone tires > shredding. Keep in mind, Michelin only had to build a tire that would > handle the load at 180mph and only once per lap for 78ish laps. Firestone > came to Indy with a tire that did 4 turns per lap at over 200mph for > probably 30 laps per stint. (well except for that AJ Foyt Jr guy, I don't > think he broke 200mph on the straights) > > dave henrie

Firstly, Firestone obviously tested b4 the race. Secondly, a simmer ought to have a clue about the difference in downforce between an IRL car setup for a superspeedway and and F1 car setup with it's std rear wing. I'd say the F1 car would put more stress on the tyre due to greater downforce and the consequent greater lateral loading - mute point anyway.

"redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Nhvue.984$[email hidden]...

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>> Try this one instead & see if it changes your mind back again: >> >> http://www.motorsport.com/magazine/feature.asp?C=Musings&D=2005-06-21 >> > > So we're meant to feel sorry for Michelin just because some former > Goodyear employee is looking for a new job ? > I'm afraid not. They(Michelin) pulled this stunt for a reason that will > become clear in a few weeks time . > They are a greedy, monopolizing POS, just like the rest. >

Or you're just another moron on the FIA anti Michelin bandwagon. The FIA are using Michelin as a scapegoat to cover their lack of vision, contingency and clue.

"Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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>I was solidly in the corner of those blaming the FIA and Mosely until I > read this..... > > http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=189457&FS=F1 > > He's not the most articulate guy and his analogies stink, but his > fundamental point is a good one. If a competitor brings deficient > equipment to a competition, it's unfair to the other teams to change > the rules to remove the disadvantage. The fact that it was over half > the field doesn't change that. >

Mostly agree. Bridgestone did have the Firestone data advantage though. > Michelin pressed the envelope too far, got caught without a backup, and > tried to have the FIA save them by removing any disadvantage caused by > their screw up, with a chicane. I can't see how that would have been > the right thing to do. > Having cut throat tyre rules without testing at a resurfaced track is hardly right either. And the FIA failed to provide a testing period here - stupid! What I have objected to since this happened, is the way so many believe Michelin is entirely to blame - an attitude set up by the FIA from the outset. Everyone is falling for the FIA's overbearing bullshit position. The FIA is totally to blame for having no worthwhile contingency and greatly to blame for the lack of testing at a resurfaced track that places maximum loads on F1 tyres!

"Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:42bb230d$0$781$[email hidden] u:

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> Firstly, Firestone obviously tested b4 the race. > > Secondly, a simmer ought to have a clue about the difference in > downforce between an IRL car setup for a superspeedway and and F1 car > setup with it's std rear wing. I'd say the F1 car would put more > stress on the tyre due to greater downforce and the consequent greater > lateral loading - mute point anyway. >

That is my point...even in pre-race tire tests, there were no stories of IRL tires exploding. This kinda reminds me of the fake outter tread Michelin ran a year or so ago. Designed to wear off quickly so the wider/squarer 'real' tire then was exposed for racing. Anyhow, I didn't go, so I don't have any real injury to spout about. lol. dave henrie

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>> So we're meant to feel sorry for Michelin just because some former >> Goodyear employee is looking for a new job ? >> I'm afraid not. They(Michelin) pulled this stunt for a reason that will >> become clear in a few weeks time . >> They are a greedy, monopolizing POS, just like the rest. >> > > Or you're just another moron on the FIA anti Michelin bandwagon. > > The FIA are using Michelin as a scapegoat to cover their lack of > vision, contingency and clue.

If you had bothered to read more than the first few words of my post..I said "just like the rest". Everyone involved in F1 at the mo is looking to have a bigger slice of the pie. We shall see. tbc

Sorry it was Wegner who figured BAR and Sauber tested at Indy. My reader got it's threads unwound.

> Well, if Bridgestone had info about U.S. roads, they have demonstrated, > that even in the event where it might save lives, they would not be prepared > to share that info. Competitive edge is far more important of course! What info did you think they had that was so unusual (for a very high speed banked corner) that it said that Michelin tires would come apart? Do you want Bridgestone to give Michelin all their engineering data on a routine basis? Do you expect Michelin to tell Bridgestone exactly how their tires are constructed? "they were in the cars, and could have driven had they wanted to - simple, no? What would happen - Coulthard fired for driving at USGP? I think it probably states in his contract - just a guess - that he's hired to drive cars. I think it would be difficult to fire an accountant for accounting - or a driver for driving." You gotta be kidding. An F1 driver can get fired for parting his hair wrong, and he's gone. When was the last time a driver successfully contested a dismissal? At the unlikely best he'd get some money and never drive for anyone in F1 again. And I'm sure the contract has a provision for disobeying team orders, so he wouldn't even get the money.

"Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> >> Well, if Bridgestone had info about U.S. roads, they have >> demonstrated, >> that even in the event where it might save lives, they would not be >> prepared >> to share that info. Competitive edge is far more important of course! > > What info did you think they had that was so unusual (for a > very high speed banked corner) that it said that Michelin tires would > come apart? Do you want Bridgestone to give Michelin all their > engineering data on a routine basis? Do you expect Michelin to tell > Bridgestone exactly how their tires are constructed? > > "they were in the cars, and could have driven had they wanted to - > simple, no? What would happen - Coulthard fired for driving at USGP? I > think it probably states in his contract - just a guess - that he's > hired to drive cars. I think it would be difficult to fire an > accountant for accounting - or a driver for driving." > > You gotta be kidding. An F1 driver can get fired for > parting his hair wrong, and he's gone. When was the last time a driver > successfully contested a dismissal? At the unlikely best he'd get some > money and never drive for anyone in F1 again. And I'm sure the > contract has a provision for disobeying team orders, so he wouldn't > even get the money. >

Maybe you're right; but then, does it state in the contract that they need to go out on the parade lap and wave at the kids - and, while we're at it, ITv are reporting - a rumour of course - that Button won an absolute fortune from betting on the USGP. Do you think it is illegal for someone inside F1 to be betting on results? In any other sport yes - but not in F1. Did someone say this race was fixed? How much money was won by Toyota personnel if it turns out it was true that Trulli ran - as ITV are reporting - with 3 laps worth of fuel in qual? Did someone say fixed race?

Well ok Martini, had you have driven a Michelin car, what would your approach have been? :) "alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:MfFue.26631$[email hidden]... If the drivers got no say, why did they have a meeting before hand - and btw they were in the cars, and could have driven had they wanted to - simple, no? What would happen - Coulthard fired for driving at USGP? I think it probably states in his contract - just a guess - that he's hired to drive cars. I think it would be difficult to fire an accountant for accounting - or a driver for driving.

"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > That is my point...even in pre-race tire tests, there were no stories of > IRL tires exploding. This kinda reminds me of the fake outter tread > Michelin ran a year or so ago. Designed to wear off quickly so the > wider/squarer 'real' tire then was exposed for racing. > I heard on tv out here that there was some issue with joins where layers of track meet. Sounded like tyres were cutting/shredding rather than simply collapsing. The track does run in the other direction too and probably optimised for the Indy 500 as it should be. Anyway, with the rules as is, to not test at all tracks, especially where changes have been made, is crazy.

"Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> >> Well, if Bridgestone had info about U.S. roads, they have >> demonstrated, >> that even in the event where it might save lives, they would not be >> prepared >> to share that info. Competitive edge is far more important of course! > > What info did you think they had that was so unusual (for a > very high speed banked corner) that it said that Michelin tires would > come apart? Do you want Bridgestone to give Michelin all their > engineering data on a routine basis? Do you expect Michelin to tell > Bridgestone exactly how their tires are constructed? >

If Bridgestone had info that indicated there could/would be danger then I would hope they would be forthcoming with it. Like Michelin, I have no idea what the issue with the track may have been.

My approach would have been rather simple really - assumed that the FIA write the rules for the sport - assume that my tyre manufacturer had come to town (fdrom their headquarters in South Carolina where, as we all know, the French have taken a beach-head and where no-one in the R&D department of Michelin watched the Indy 500 on TV) without the correct tyres - and accepted that either (a) I was not going to drive and forewarned the jerks that pitched up to watch the race or (b) accept that changing tyres every ten laps or so was a valid option or (c) accepted a speed-limit through that turn with a speed-limit button (which works in the pits) or (d) refused to take part in the warm up lap or (e) refused to take part in the parade lap or (f) got in the car and thought, bugger it, I get paid millions and hitting the wall is just part of my profession. What I would not have done is - defrauded 120,000 people out of their money and then claimed that driving the warm-up lap and parade lap was somehow part of the 'show'. "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:42bc7309$0$795$[email hidden]... Well ok Martini, had you have driven a Michelin car, what would your approach have been? :) "alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:MfFue.26631$[email hidden]... If the drivers got no say, why did they have a meeting before hand - and btw they were in the cars, and could have driven had they wanted to - simple, no? What would happen - Coulthard fired for driving at USGP? I think it probably states in his contract - just a guess - that he's hired to drive cars. I think it would be difficult to fire an accountant for accounting - or a driver for driving.

"Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:42bc764b$0$779$[email hidden]...

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> > "Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> >>> Well, if Bridgestone had info about U.S. roads, they have >>> demonstrated, >>> that even in the event where it might save lives, they would not be >>> prepared >>> to share that info. Competitive edge is far more important of course! >> >> What info did you think they had that was so unusual (for a >> very high speed banked corner) that it said that Michelin tires would >> come apart? Do you want Bridgestone to give Michelin all their >> engineering data on a routine basis? Do you expect Michelin to tell >> Bridgestone exactly how their tires are constructed? >> > > If Bridgestone had info that indicated there could/would be danger then > I would hope they would be forthcoming with it. Like Michelin, I have no > idea what the issue with the track may have been.

True - you and Michelin seem to belong to a very modern world in which PERSONAL RESPONSABILITY is sacrificed for finding the closest scapegoat - so Michelin come to town without tyres - BLAME FERRARI - BLAME THE FIA - BLAME THE TRACK - BLAME SCHUMACHER - BLAME BERNIE & MAX - BLAME THE FANS, THE TV, BLAME ANYONE AND EVERYONE AND ANYTHING - but take no blame for one's own personal and acute and dismal and incompetent FAILING to PROVIDE a race-tyre for a race weekend - guess what Byron? F1 is a SPORT. That means that those that are IN the sport are MEANT to know what the hell they are doing - if NIKE built footballs that EXPLODED every ten minutes, FIFA would soon go to Adidas and ask them to make balls (balls being exactly what is missing in today's current crop of F1 drivers). Michelin failed. Everyone else succeeded. Michelin should have come clean - on Saturday - and cancelled the GP. Not contined with the bloody farce.

Sean Higgins wrote: > Why don't you spend your time and money in a better way and boycott Michelin > and FRANCE! LMAO Too late, been doing that for years. Don McCorkle

"Byron Forbes" > > If Bridgestone had info that indicated there could/would be danger then > I would hope they would be forthcoming with it. Like Michelin, I have no > idea what the issue with the track may have been. Its the SAME Friggin corner that has been in that same configuration for 6 years!!!! The corner been there over 100 years. Since Michelin KNEW the track had been resurfaced and ground, don't you think they would have brought a compound to error on the side of caution? They are so full of themselves that Michelin didn't think they needed to. I hear all this talk about the 500 this, the 500 that, and Bridgestone knew some key issues about the track surface. Well it wasn't a SECRET that the track was like that, was it? -- Sean Higgins www.higpup.com My Trans Am Pictures http://www.higpup.com/ta Ferrari Pictures http://www.higpup.com/Ferrari

Malc wrote: > As I understand it the corner has been there for years (of course) but the > 'diamond cut' surface was new this season. imo someone at Michelin didn't do > enough homework & assumed a 'regular' track surface. That is what they want you to think, but the surface had nothing to do with it. There was not a wear problem, it was the carcass of the tire not standing up to the forces applied by the high speed banked turn. Michelin tried something new with the structure of the tire and it backfired. Their fault. Don McCorkle

"Byron Forbes" <

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> Firstly, Firestone obviously tested b4 the race. > > Secondly, a simmer ought to have a clue about the difference in > downforce between an IRL car setup for a superspeedway and and F1 car > setup with it's std rear wing. I'd say the F1 car would put more stress on > the tyre due to greater downforce and the consequent greater lateral > loading - mute point anyway. >

Why doesn't Michelin have their own F1 car, say even some version of some teams last years car, then they can test where they want when they want with who they want. Small price to pay compared to the backlash they will get now. -- Sean Higgins www.higpup.com My Trans Am Pictures http://www.higpup.com/ta Ferrari Pictures http://www.higpup.com/Ferrari

"mcewena" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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>I thought Stoddards timeline was interesting. > > http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=189438&FS=F1 > > It's inconsevable that Jean Todt wasn't invited/interested to the same > discussions as the Bridgestone minows, but it gives him plausible > denyability. > > Max and Ferrari were 100% right in my opinion AND 100% wrong. They won > the battle, got max points by following the letter of the rules, now F1 > and Ferrari sales will suffer because of it. > > They won the battle but lost the war. >

Please tell me how Ferrari sales will suffer for them finishing 1-2 in a race where 7 teams bailed out of competing? -- Sean Higgins www.higpup.com My Trans Am Pictures http://www.higpup.com/ta Ferrari Pictures http://www.higpup.com/Ferrari

"Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:42bb29d8$0$786$[email hidden]...

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> > "Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >>I was solidly in the corner of those blaming the FIA and Mosely until I >> read this..... >> >> http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=189457&FS=F1 >> >> He's not the most articulate guy and his analogies stink, but his >> fundamental point is a good one. If a competitor brings deficient >> equipment to a competition, it's unfair to the other teams to change >> the rules to remove the disadvantage. The fact that it was over half >> the field doesn't change that. >> > > Mostly agree. Bridgestone did have the Firestone data advantage though. > >> Michelin pressed the envelope too far, got caught without a backup, and >> tried to have the FIA save them by removing any disadvantage caused by >> their screw up, with a chicane. I can't see how that would have been >> the right thing to do. >> > > Having cut throat tyre rules without testing at a resurfaced track is > hardly right either. And the FIA failed to provide a testing period here - > stupid! > > What I have objected to since this happened, is the way so many believe > Michelin is entirely to blame - an attitude set up by the FIA from the > outset. Everyone is falling for the FIA's overbearing bullshit position. > The FIA is totally to blame for having no worthwhile contingency and > greatly to blame for the lack of testing at a resurfaced track that places > maximum loads on F1 tyres! >

Isn't Michelin allowed to bring 2 compounds of tire to the track? I don't think the FIA told them to bring 2 versions that are on the edge. -- Sean Higgins www.higpup.com My Trans Am Pictures http://www.higpup.com/ta Ferrari Pictures http://www.higpup.com/Ferrari

"Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > "Byron Forbes" >> >> If Bridgestone had info that indicated there could/would be danger >> then I would hope they would be forthcoming with it. Like Michelin, I >> have no idea what the issue with the track may have been. > > Its the SAME Friggin corner that has been in that same configuration for 6 > years!!!! The corner been there over 100 years. Since Michelin KNEW the > track had been resurfaced and ground, don't you think they would have > brought a compound to error on the side of caution? They are so full of > themselves that Michelin didn't think they needed to. I hear all this > talk about the 500 this, the 500 that, and Bridgestone knew some key > issues about the track surface. Well it wasn't a SECRET that the track > was like that, was it? >

Well, according to Bridgestone, the track was the same. Those dirty, good for nuthin, misleading punks!

"alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:84%ue.26772$[email hidden]...

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>> >> If Bridgestone had info that indicated there could/would be danger >> then I would hope they would be forthcoming with it. Like Michelin, I >> have no idea what the issue with the track may have been. > True - you and Michelin seem to belong to a very modern world in which > PERSONAL RESPONSABILITY is sacrificed for finding the closest scapegoat - > so Michelin come to town without tyres - BLAME FERRARI - BLAME THE FIA - > BLAME THE TRACK - BLAME SCHUMACHER - BLAME BERNIE & MAX - BLAME THE FANS, > THE TV, BLAME ANYONE AND EVERYONE AND ANYTHING - but take no blame for > one's own personal and acute and dismal and incompetent FAILING to PROVIDE > a race-tyre for a race weekend - guess what Byron? F1 is a SPORT. That > means that those that are IN the sport are MEANT to know what the hell > they are doing - if NIKE built footballs that EXPLODED every ten minutes, > FIFA would soon go to Adidas and ask them to make balls (balls being > exactly what is missing in today's current crop of F1 drivers). >

Pretty funny stuff that. If ever there was a classic example of scapegoat, the FIA pointing the finger at Michelin is it. Even if we agreed Michelin screwed up, it doesn't change the fact that the FIA's lack of proper contingency was certainly a monumental screwup. And Ferrari aligned themself with the FIA which means they were quite happy to screw over the fans. Simple facts. Jordan and Minardi showed good sportsmanship in the face of idiotic FIA suggestions - Ferrari are scumbags. > Michelin failed. Everyone else succeeded. Michelin should have come > clean - on Saturday - and cancelled the GP. Not contined with the bloody > farce. > "Everyone else succeeded"? I don't think I'd quite put it that way. It seems you think Michelin are the FIA - how can Michelin cancel a GP? The farce is purely the fault of the FIA. The 6 car race was a farce and so was all the idiotic suggestions by the FIA.

"alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:XT_ue.26771$[email hidden]...

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>My approach would have been rather simple really - assumed that the FIA >write the rules for the sport - assume that my tyre manufacturer had come >to town (fdrom their headquarters in South Carolina where, as we all know, >the French have taken a beach-head and where no-one in the R&D department >of Michelin watched the Indy 500 on TV) without the correct tyres - and >accepted that either (a) I was not going to drive and forewarned the jerks >that pitched up to watch the race or (b) accept that changing tyres every >ten laps or so was a valid option or (c) accepted a speed-limit through >that turn with a speed-limit button (which works in the pits) or (d) >refused to take part in the warm up lap or (e) refused to take part in the >parade lap or (f) got in the car and thought, bugger it, I get paid >millions and hitting the wall is just part of my profession.

a) no driver knew a thing 'til the last moment b) Ralph went into the wall after 2 laps - you must be a good guesser I guess? c) crap - I wouldn't have d) woopy shit e) woopy shit f) bullshit What I would not have done is - defrauded 120,000 people out of their money and then claimed that driving the warm-up lap and parade lap was somehow part of the 'show'. What a load of shit.

"Woodie83" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Malc wrote: > >> As I understand it the corner has been there for years (of course) but >> the >> 'diamond cut' surface was new this season. imo someone at Michelin didn't >> do >> enough homework & assumed a 'regular' track surface. > > That is what they want you to think, but the surface had nothing to do > with it. There was not a wear problem, it was the carcass of the tire not > standing up to the forces applied by the high speed banked turn. Michelin > tried something new with the structure of the tire and it backfired. > Their fault. >

Proof?

"Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > "Byron Forbes" < >> Firstly, Firestone obviously tested b4 the race. >> >> Secondly, a simmer ought to have a clue about the difference in >> downforce between an IRL car setup for a superspeedway and and F1 car >> setup with it's std rear wing. I'd say the F1 car would put more stress >> on the tyre due to greater downforce and the consequent greater lateral >> loading - mute point anyway. >> > Why doesn't Michelin have their own F1 car, say even some version of some > teams last years car, then they can test where they want when they want > with who they want. Small price to pay compared to the backlash they will > get now. >

See the zillions of FIA rules reguarding testing! The FIA failed to provide any testing for anyone at IMS. Bridgestone were simply lucky to have Firestone as a sister company and thus got data from the Indy 500. This might be technically ok but it certainly an advantage that Michelin never had.

"Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > Isn't Michelin allowed to bring 2 compounds of tire to the track? I don't > think the FIA told them to bring 2 versions that are on the edge. > So where was that edge? I'd be pretty sure this was not the plan of Michelin. If the track was just a little different from last year in T13 then all the Michelin data is obselete.

"Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:42bda420$0$777 $[email hidden]: > So where was that edge? I'd be pretty sure this was not the plan of > Michelin. If the track was just a little different from last year in T13 > then all the Michelin data is obselete. > > yet bridgstone brought the same tire as they used in 04. So any 'info' garnered from Firestone is irrelevant. dh

"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> "alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in > news:KBYte.25942$[email hidden]: > >> And Ferrari were not involved in the discussion, as Williams have >> confirmed. > > However, it HAS been reported that 9 of the 10 teams(or 10 of 11, I'm too > rushed to look it up) had supported a chicane. Since ALL teams votes were > needed to make the chane, the fact no chicane went up can 'partially' be > attributed to Ferrari. Remember, they also did not want to allow Paul > Stoddard to run his 2004 spec machinery at Australia. One could argue > they > are being consistant. Or one could argue they are supporting their > sponsors. Or one could argue they are fighting for every point. > > dh >

Was the situation worded as such " Who will only race if a chicane is put in place?" Ferrari would certainly wouldn't be part of that, because they came prepared to race on the correct configuration. -- Sean Higgins www.higpup.com My Trans Am Pictures http://www.higpup.com/ta Ferrari Pictures http://www.higpup.com/Ferrari

"Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:42bb1eeb$0$788$[email hidden]...

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> > "alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:b4iue.26006$[email hidden]... >> >> Yup - and while we're at it, can Michelin change the configuration of all >> tracks they race on so they can get an advantage? And how about a 50bhp >> reduction in Ferrari's engine output - hey, why not, Michelin write the >> rules, and everyone that play by the rules - like Bridgestone, who build >> tyres to last - well, they can just go piss off. >> >> After all, ferrari raced at the USGP - it's abundantly clear they were at >> fault for doing so. They should not have raced like the rest of the >> teams - that is, after all, why they came to the US right? >> > > Though ferrari had no say ultimately, Todt made it clear he would not > agree to any of the proposals that provided a genuine race. That is biting > the hand that feeds you. That represents ferrari as a bunch of wimps that > will take a win any way they can get it - well, I wouldn't even call it a > "win" - they simply got the points. But they were happy to be crapping all > over their own bread and butter in the process! >

What don't you get about Ferrari and the other Bridgestone runners came prepared to race. The Michelin teams were not, this has NOTHING to do with Ferrari's decisions to compromise they're hard work to accommodate some dolts that can't make tires, who are cleaning up in the championship. Why would Ferrari want to change anything, Michelin screwed 7 teams out of potential points, and that is great for Ferrari as they CAME PREPARED. LOL -- Sean Higgins www.higpup.com My Trans Am Pictures http://www.higpup.com/ta Ferrari Pictures http://www.higpup.com/Ferrari

"alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:sDYte.25943$[email hidden]...

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>I flew in from Tokyo early just to be there - bastards. They screwed us >all - but hey, at least Michelin are assuring the French public that they >wil turn up to race in France - how nice. > "Kyle Roberts" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8Qkte.121$[email hidden]... >> >> "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:KAjte.103$[email hidden]... >>> You weren't the guy that threw the water bottle were ya Kyle? :)) >>> >>> Yea what a shame. Can you get your money back? >>> >>> Mitch >> >> No. I just got my boos in and left after the third or fourth lap. I was >> going to renew my tickets tomorrow and do the drive a lap on the track >> thing. That is not going to happen now and I will not be going back to >> the US Grand Prix or another other F1 race. The FIA obviously does not >> care about the fans at all. They had options to pursue to have a full >> grid, but instead they chose to screw the fans. I was pissed and only had >> to drive about 20 miles to the track. I really feel for the people that >> came from across the U.S. or from other countries to see this >> "Traveshamockery! >> >> Kyle >> > >

Michelin wouldn't want to shoot it self in the foot in it's own country, when the do it so well overseas. LOL -- Sean Higgins www.higpup.com My Trans Am Pictures http://www.higpup.com/ta Ferrari Pictures http://www.higpup.com/Ferrari

"Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:42bd9e03$0$794$[email hidden]...

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> > "Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> >> "Byron Forbes" < >>> Firstly, Firestone obviously tested b4 the race. >>> >>> Secondly, a simmer ought to have a clue about the difference in >>> downforce between an IRL car setup for a superspeedway and and F1 car >>> setup with it's std rear wing. I'd say the F1 car would put more stress >>> on the tyre due to greater downforce and the consequent greater lateral >>> loading - mute point anyway. >>> >> Why doesn't Michelin have their own F1 car, say even some version of some >> teams last years car, then they can test where they want when they want >> with who they want. Small price to pay compared to the backlash they >> will get now. >> > > See the zillions of FIA rules reguarding testing! The FIA failed to > provide any testing for anyone at IMS. Bridgestone were simply lucky to > have Firestone as a sister company and thus got data from the Indy 500. > This might be technically ok but it certainly an advantage that Michelin > never had. >

So the FIA tell Michelin what to do? I would think if they had their own car and driver even if it was a 2004 model of something, they could test what tires where they wanted, how they wanted to. Since that is not a team part of the FIA or F1. No? -- Sean Higgins www.higpup.com My Trans Am Pictures http://www.higpup.com/ta Ferrari Pictures http://www.higpup.com/Ferrari

"Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:42bda420$0$777$[email hidden]...

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> > "Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> >> Isn't Michelin allowed to bring 2 compounds of tire to the track? I >> don't think the FIA told them to bring 2 versions that are on the edge. >> > > So where was that edge? I'd be pretty sure this was not the plan of > Michelin. If the track was just a little different from last year in T13 > then all the Michelin data is obselete. >

So they just guessed what to bring with a World Championship at stake, with drivers lives at stake, reputation at stake? If that is the case, those guys at Michelin really are a bunch of roobs! -- Sean Higgins www.higpup.com My Trans Am Pictures http://www.higpup.com/ta Ferrari Pictures http://www.higpup.com/Ferrari

"Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:42bd9b59$0$794$[email hidden]...

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> > "alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:84%ue.26772$[email hidden]... >>> >>> If Bridgestone had info that indicated there could/would be danger >>> then I would hope they would be forthcoming with it. Like Michelin, I >>> have no idea what the issue with the track may have been. >> True - you and Michelin seem to belong to a very modern world in which >> PERSONAL RESPONSABILITY is sacrificed for finding the closest scapegoat - >> so Michelin come to town without tyres - BLAME FERRARI - BLAME THE FIA - >> BLAME THE TRACK - BLAME SCHUMACHER - BLAME BERNIE & MAX - BLAME THE FANS, >> THE TV, BLAME ANYONE AND EVERYONE AND ANYTHING - but take no blame for >> one's own personal and acute and dismal and incompetent FAILING to >> PROVIDE a race-tyre for a race weekend - guess what Byron? F1 is a SPORT. >> That means that those that are IN the sport are MEANT to know what the >> hell they are doing - if NIKE built footballs that EXPLODED every ten >> minutes, FIFA would soon go to Adidas and ask them to make balls (balls >> being exactly what is missing in today's current crop of F1 drivers). >> > > Pretty funny stuff that. If ever there was a classic example of > scapegoat, the FIA pointing the finger at Michelin is it. > > Even if we agreed Michelin screwed up, it doesn't change the fact that > the FIA's lack of proper contingency was certainly a monumental screwup. > And Ferrari aligned themself with the FIA which means they were quite > happy to screw over the fans. Simple facts. > > Jordan and Minardi showed good sportsmanship in the face of idiotic FIA > suggestions - Ferrari are scumbags. > > >> Michelin failed. Everyone else succeeded. Michelin should have come >> clean - on Saturday - and cancelled the GP. Not contined with the bloody >> farce. >> > > "Everyone else succeeded"? I don't think I'd quite put it that way. > > It seems you think Michelin are the FIA - how can Michelin cancel a GP? > > The farce is purely the fault of the FIA. The 6 car race was a farce > and so was all the idiotic suggestions by the FIA.

Even if we agreed that Michelins screwed up is like saying - even if we agreed the Nazis started WW2 - you seem, in your hate of Ferrari (bizarre but understandable for any F1 newbie who wasn't around following the prancing horse during the 21 years of abject failure) to miss the obvious - Michelin DID screw up. ANd it is not ferrari's job to help them. The FIA has provided simple rules - bring 2 tyres to each race, one for performance, one for endurance. Michelin chose to boycott the rules. The FIA has done other things too - like written the rules for F1 for half a century. F1 is a sport - it is not the WWF. The sport means you don't change the rules for the incompetence of the competition. Rules are not changed in a race weekend - and tracks are not re-configured ten minutes before a race. If you think this is what F1 should be doing then I suggest you move along to watching - well, I actually can't think of any sports that would do that so - how bout the WWF?

"Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:42bd9866$0$787$[email hidden]...

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> > "Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> >> "Byron Forbes" >>> >>> If Bridgestone had info that indicated there could/would be danger >>> then I would hope they would be forthcoming with it. Like Michelin, I >>> have no idea what the issue with the track may have been. >> >> Its the SAME Friggin corner that has been in that same configuration for >> 6 years!!!! The corner been there over 100 years. Since Michelin KNEW >> the track had been resurfaced and ground, don't you think they would have >> brought a compound to error on the side of caution? They are so full of >> themselves that Michelin didn't think they needed to. I hear all this >> talk about the 500 this, the 500 that, and Bridgestone knew some key >> issues about the track surface. Well it wasn't a SECRET that the track >> was like that, was it? >> > > Well, according to Bridgestone, the track was the same. Those dirty, > good for nuthin, misleading punks!

Michelin race budget is close to 1 billion dollars a year - or you saying that NO-ONE INVOLVED WITH MICHELIN - WHO have a a BASE in Carolina - watched the Indy 500????

"Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:42bd9cd1$0$786$[email hidden]...

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> > "alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:XT_ue.26771$[email hidden]... >>My approach would have been rather simple really - assumed that the FIA >>write the rules for the sport - assume that my tyre manufacturer had come >>to town (fdrom their headquarters in South Carolina where, as we all know, >>the French have taken a beach-head and where no-one in the R&D department >>of Michelin watched the Indy 500 on TV) without the correct tyres - and >>accepted that either (a) I was not going to drive and forewarned the jerks >>that pitched up to watch the race or (b) accept that changing tyres every >>ten laps or so was a valid option or (c) accepted a speed-limit through >>that turn with a speed-limit button (which works in the pits) or (d) >>refused to take part in the warm up lap or (e) refused to take part in the >>parade lap or (f) got in the car and thought, bugger it, I get paid >>millions and hitting the wall is just part of my profession. > > a) no driver knew a thing 'til the last moment > b) Ralph went into the wall after 2 laps - you must be a good > guesser I guess? > c) crap - I wouldn't have > d) woopy shit > e) woopy shit > f) bullshit > > What I would not have done is - defrauded 120,000 people out of their > money and then claimed that driving the warm-up lap and parade lap was > somehow part of the 'show'. > > What a load of shit.

Yeah bullshit is your answer because any other escapes your limited argument - fact is, sunshine, TRULLI ran the Qualifiers with 2 LAPS WORTH of fuel - hardly the actions of a team knowing they WOULD RACE the next day? Cra-cra of bullshit may have served you well in creche, but in the big world, you just sound like a child jumping up and down with not even the ability to fabricate a reason why Michelin are a bunch of incompetent twats. Come back when you've made up a plausible argument as to why 1) Button won a reputed million pounds on Monteiro being on the podium and 2) Why Trulli qualified with 2 laps worth of fuel on his car. And if you can't, then you'll just have to accept that these pricks defrauded 120,000 people out of their money.

"Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:42bd9e03$0$794$[email hidden]...

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> > "Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> >> "Byron Forbes" < >>> Firstly, Firestone obviously tested b4 the race. >>> >>> Secondly, a simmer ought to have a clue about the difference in >>> downforce between an IRL car setup for a superspeedway and and F1 car >>> setup with it's std rear wing. I'd say the F1 car would put more stress >>> on the tyre due to greater downforce and the consequent greater lateral >>> loading - mute point anyway. >>> >> Why doesn't Michelin have their own F1 car, say even some version of some >> teams last years car, then they can test where they want when they want >> with who they want. Small price to pay compared to the backlash they >> will get now. >> > > See the zillions of FIA rules reguarding testing! The FIA failed to > provide any testing for anyone at IMS. Bridgestone were simply lucky to > have Firestone as a sister company and thus got data from the Indy 500. > This might be technically ok but it certainly an advantage that Michelin > never had.

If you knew the first thing about F1, you'd know that Michelin - with 7 fully-funded teams - have done over 90% more testing than Bridgestone, whose testing programme has been done exclusively with ferrari because both minardi and jordan don't test. You know shit-all about F1 - lemme give you a clue. Ballestre's ghost. >

"Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:42bda420$0$777$[email hidden]... >> >> "Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:[email hidden]... >>> >>> Isn't Michelin allowed to bring 2 compounds of tire to the track? I >>> don't think the FIA told them to bring 2 versions that are on the edge. >>> >> >> So where was that edge? I'd be pretty sure this was not the plan of >> Michelin. If the track was just a little different from last year in T13 >> then all the Michelin data is obselete. >> > So they just guessed what to bring with a World Championship at stake, > with drivers lives at stake, reputation at stake? If that is the case, > those guys at Michelin really are a bunch of roobs!

Game, set and match Sean - well done.

"alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ockve.27757$[email hidden]...

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> > "Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> >> "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:42bda420$0$777$[email hidden]... >>> >>> "Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >>> news:[email hidden]... >>>> >>>> Isn't Michelin allowed to bring 2 compounds of tire to the track? I >>>> don't think the FIA told them to bring 2 versions that are on the edge. >>>> >>> >>> So where was that edge? I'd be pretty sure this was not the plan of >>> Michelin. If the track was just a little different from last year in T13 >>> then all the Michelin data is obselete. >>> >> So they just guessed what to bring with a World Championship at stake, >> with drivers lives at stake, reputation at stake? If that is the case, >> those guys at Michelin really are a bunch of roobs! > > Game, set and match Sean - well done. >

LOL -- Sean Higgins www.higpup.com My Trans Am Pictures http://www.higpup.com/ta Ferrari Pictures http://www.higpup.com/Ferrari

Byron Forbes wrote:

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>>That is what they want you to think, but the surface had nothing to do >>with it. There was not a wear problem, it was the carcass of the tire not >>standing up to the forces applied by the high speed banked turn. Michelin >>tried something new with the structure of the tire and it backfired. >>Their fault. >> > > > Proof?

Ralf Schumacher's instantaneous failure after two laps is proof enough for me. That's not wear, it's construction. during the US broadcast of the race, one of the commentators said something about Michelin having a softer sidewall to allow the tire to grow on the straights like a drag racing tire. There was no elaboration. Bridgestone has said they brought the same tire as last year. There is no possibility that the rubber compound is the same, 20 laps verses 100 laps. Bridgestone is matter-of-factly referring to the construction of the tire carcass because they find it obvious that that is the only factor. Don McCorkle

"alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:kVjve.27678$[email hidden]...

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> The FIA has provided simple rules - bring 2 tyres to each race, one for > performance, one for endurance. Michelin chose to boycott the rules. The > FIA has done other things too - like written the rules for F1 for half a > century. F1 is a sport - it is not the WWF. The sport means you don't > change the rules for the incompetence of the competition. Rules are not > changed in a race weekend - and tracks are not re-configured ten minutes > before a race. >

You are making no point at all. They wrote the rules and they failed to have a contingency for a foreseeable outcome. > If you think this is what F1 should be doing then I suggest you move along > to watching - well, I actually can't think of any sports that would do > that so - how bout the WWF? > I'm starting to think that you are very sympathetic toward the FIA because you see FILSCA as the FIA of simming! LOL.

"alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:R1kve.27714$[email hidden]...

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> > Cra-cra of bullshit may have served you well in creche, but in the big > world, you just sound like a child jumping up and down with not even the > ability to fabricate a reason why Michelin are a bunch of incompetent > twats. > > Come back when you've made up a plausible argument as to why > 1) Button won a reputed million pounds on Monteiro being on the podium and > 2) Why Trulli qualified with 2 laps worth of fuel on his car. > > And if you can't, then you'll just have to accept that these pricks > defrauded 120,000 people out of their money. >

You're off your trolley!

"Woodie83" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > Ralf Schumacher's instantaneous failure after two laps is proof enough for > me. That's not wear, it's construction. during the US broadcast of the > race, one of the commentators said something about Michelin having a > softer sidewall to allow the tire to grow on the straights like a drag > racing tire. There was no elaboration. Bridgestone has said they brought > the same tire as last year. There is no possibility that the rubber > compound is the same, 20 laps verses 100 laps. Bridgestone is > matter-of-factly referring to the construction of the tire carcass because > they find it obvious that that is the only factor. >

So what we have here is the words of a commentator spewing out rumour, and statements from Bridgestone consistent with claims Indy 500 testing showed no difference in the track - a clear ploy to deceive Michelin perhaps. I'd need an official investigation, maybe even a legal one.

"Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > So the FIA tell Michelin what to do? I would think if they had their own > car and driver even if it was a 2004 model of something, they could test > what tires where they wanted, how they wanted to. Since that is not a > team part of the FIA or F1. No? > Funny stuff!

"alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:w3kve.27721$[email hidden]...

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> > If you knew the first thing about F1, you'd know that Michelin - with 7 > fully-funded teams - have done over 90% more testing than Bridgestone, > whose testing programme has been done exclusively with ferrari because > both minardi and jordan don't test. > > You know shit-all about F1 - lemme give you a clue. Ballestre's ghost. >>

They way you're going on here psycho boy, I'm seriously considering getting on the "we're really paranoid about FILSCA" bandwagon! It seems your so insane that 1,000,000 laps of testing at tracks other than IMS still equals 1,000,000 at IMS. You're definantly off your trolley! rotfl

"Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Was the situation worded as such " Who will only race if a chicane is put > in place?" Ferrari would certainly wouldn't be part of that, because > they came prepared to race on the correct configuration. > Translation - unlike Minardi and Jordan and the rest of F1, they're a bunch of narrow minded morons shitting on their own bread and butter.

"Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > What don't you get about Ferrari and the other Bridgestone runners came > prepared to race. The Michelin teams were not, this has NOTHING to do > with Ferrari's decisions to compromise they're hard work to accommodate > some dolts that can't make tires, who are cleaning up in the championship. > Why would Ferrari want to change anything, Michelin screwed 7 teams out of > potential points, and that is great for Ferrari as they CAME PREPARED. > LOL >

I wonder what some of the other teams would have done if in Ferrari's position? Mind you, it's ridiculous to ask teams anyway.

"alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:qWjve.27684$[email hidden]... > Michelin race budget is close to 1 billion dollars a year - or you saying > that NO-ONE INVOLVED WITH MICHELIN - WHO have a a BASE in Carolina - > watched the Indy 500???? Yeah, they had the binoculars out making sure the track was the same pebble for pebble! Maybe they need new binoculars? Wouldn't you think they'd know better than to research a track without top dollar binoculars and HDTVs? You're off every trolley that ever existed!

"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:42bda420$0$777 > $[email hidden]: > >> So where was that edge? I'd be pretty sure this was not the plan of >> Michelin. If the track was just a little different from last year in T13 >> then all the Michelin data is obselete. >> >> > > yet bridgstone brought the same tire as they used in 04. So any 'info' > garnered from Firestone is irrelevant. > > dh

Assuming Bridgestone tell no lies.

"Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:42bda420$0$777$[email hidden]... >> >> "Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:[email hidden]... >>> >>> Isn't Michelin allowed to bring 2 compounds of tire to the track? I >>> don't think the FIA told them to bring 2 versions that are on the edge. >>> >> >> So where was that edge? I'd be pretty sure this was not the plan of >> Michelin. If the track was just a little different from last year in T13 >> then all the Michelin data is obselete. >> > So they just guessed what to bring with a World Championship at stake, > with drivers lives at stake, reputation at stake? If that is the case, > those guys at Michelin really are a bunch of roobs! >

"roobs"?? If the track is different and the FIA allow no testing, what can they do?

"Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:42bff7a9$0$790$[email hidden]...

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> > "alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:R1kve.27714$[email hidden]... >> >> Cra-cra of bullshit may have served you well in creche, but in the big >> world, you just sound like a child jumping up and down with not even the >> ability to fabricate a reason why Michelin are a bunch of incompetent >> twats. >> >> Come back when you've made up a plausible argument as to why >> 1) Button won a reputed million pounds on Monteiro being on the podium >> and >> 2) Why Trulli qualified with 2 laps worth of fuel on his car. >> >> And if you can't, then you'll just have to accept that these pricks >> defrauded 120,000 people out of their money. >> > > You're off your trolley!

All I hear is the kid from the creche with his hands over his ears stamping the ground saying - it ain't so it ain't so it ain't so it ain't so

"Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:42c000ec$0$779$[email hidden]...

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> > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:42bda420$0$777 >> $[email hidden]: >> >>> So where was that edge? I'd be pretty sure this was not the plan of >>> Michelin. If the track was just a little different from last year in T13 >>> then all the Michelin data is obselete. >>> >>> >> >> yet bridgstone brought the same tire as they used in 04. So any 'info' >> garnered from Firestone is irrelevant. >> >> dh > > Assuming Bridgestone tell no lies.

Yes Byron, it's all a vicious conspiracy.

Byron Forbes wrote: > So what we have here is the words of a commentator spewing out rumour, > and statements from Bridgestone consistent with claims Indy 500 testing > showed no difference in the track - a clear ploy to deceive Michelin > perhaps. Jesus you're a thick one. The Indy 500 problem was with wear, and after they ground the track surface it wasn't a very big deal. The US Grand Prix problem was with structural failure of the tire carcass. Completely unrelated. How many times must you hear this? Don McCorkle

> Jesus you're a thick one. The Indy 500 problem was with wear, and after > they ground the track surface it wasn't a very big deal. The US Grand > Prix problem was with structural failure of the tire carcass. > Completely unrelated. How many times must you hear this? > Actually I think everyone else here is equally thick. Byron: 1. Is convinced that the fact that Michelin screwed up designing a tire is soomehow Bridgestone's fault. 2. Blames the FIA (and/or Ferrari) for not fixing Michelin's screwup by redoing the track to suit Michelin's tire. Clearly there are no words that will change his mind.

"Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:1119907483.157900.156830 @g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

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> ctually I think everyone else here is equally thick. > Byron: > > 1. Is convinced that the fact that Michelin screwed up designing a > tire is soomehow Bridgestone's fault. > > 2. Blames the FIA (and/or Ferrari) for not fixing Michelin's screwup > by redoing the track to suit Michelin's tire. > > Clearly there are no words that will change his mind.

You forgot to mention that the Pope is now a German. dave henrie

"Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:42bffa39$0$779$[email hidden]...

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> > "alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:w3kve.27721$[email hidden]... >> >> If you knew the first thing about F1, you'd know that Michelin - with 7 >> fully-funded teams - have done over 90% more testing than Bridgestone, >> whose testing programme has been done exclusively with ferrari because >> both minardi and jordan don't test. >> >> You know shit-all about F1 - lemme give you a clue. Ballestre's ghost. >>> > > They way you're going on here psycho boy, I'm seriously considering > getting on the "we're really paranoid about FILSCA" bandwagon! > > It seems your so insane that 1,000,000 laps of testing at tracks other > than IMS still equals 1,000,000 at IMS. > > You're definantly off your trolley! > > rotfl

The problem with the Michelin tyres - as has been made abundantly evident for anyone with the ability to read (see AutoSport, this week, as well as Gazetta dello Sport, Thursday last week, Atlas-F1 article) is that Michelin's design of its tyres are at fault - they could test 1 trillion laps at Indy, it would make bugger all difference because the actual design of the tyre (as opposed to its manufacture/compound) means it cannot take over 800kilo loads - ther only thing Michelin could have done was used last year's Michelin which, as far as I understand it, were already on the limit (see Ralf's smash last year) - fact is, not only did Michelin know they were in trouble last year, they probably knew they were screwed this year before they even arrived at Indy (explaining why they only had one tyre compound to begin with) - now, do me a favour, since you've been reduced to name-calling, I take it you have nothing further to contribute so - laters..

"Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:42c00138$0$785$[email hidden]...

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> > "Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> >> "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:42bda420$0$777$[email hidden]... >>> >>> "Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >>> news:[email hidden]... >>>> >>>> Isn't Michelin allowed to bring 2 compounds of tire to the track? I >>>> don't think the FIA told them to bring 2 versions that are on the edge. >>>> >>> >>> So where was that edge? I'd be pretty sure this was not the plan of >>> Michelin. If the track was just a little different from last year in T13 >>> then all the Michelin data is obselete. >>> >> So they just guessed what to bring with a World Championship at stake, >> with drivers lives at stake, reputation at stake? If that is the case, >> those guys at Michelin really are a bunch of roobs! >> > "roobs"?? > > If the track is different and the FIA allow no testing, what can they > do?

Byron, honey, testing is not allowed on 90% of the tracks used for the FIA world championship - and many of those tracks undergo yearly changes to their profile. Once more - it is NOT the compound that is at issue, it is the actual DESIGN of the tyre by Michelin - now, why don't you do as I suggested and do some reading up on the matter, and then, when you have finally understood that there is NOTHING Michelin could have done about this - other than completely re-designing their tyres - that work - and outperform - Bridgestone on 99% of tracks - which would effectively mean surrendering their entire season - and the billions of dollars of investment - to create ONE tyre for ONE race. LAst year, Michelin was already marginal at Indy - this year they went over the hump. It is a simple thing Byron, and I am sure that you'll be able to get it sooner or later.

"alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2wYve.28219$[email hidden]...

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> > "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:42bff7a9$0$790$[email hidden]... >> >> "alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:R1kve.27714$[email hidden]... >>> >>> Cra-cra of bullshit may have served you well in creche, but in the big >>> world, you just sound like a child jumping up and down with not even the >>> ability to fabricate a reason why Michelin are a bunch of incompetent >>> twats. >>> >>> Come back when you've made up a plausible argument as to why >>> 1) Button won a reputed million pounds on Monteiro being on the podium >>> and >>> 2) Why Trulli qualified with 2 laps worth of fuel on his car. >>> >>> And if you can't, then you'll just have to accept that these pricks >>> defrauded 120,000 people out of their money. >>> >> >> You're off your trolley! > All I hear is the kid from the creche with his hands over his ears > stamping the ground saying - it ain't so it ain't so it ain't so it ain't > so >

that's an echo

"Woodie83" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Byron Forbes wrote: > >> So what we have here is the words of a commentator spewing out >> rumour, and statements from Bridgestone consistent with claims Indy 500 >> testing showed no difference in the track - a clear ploy to deceive >> Michelin perhaps. > > Jesus you're a thick one. The Indy 500 problem was with wear, and after > they ground the track surface it wasn't a very big deal. The US Grand > Prix problem was with structural failure of the tire carcass. Completely > unrelated. How many times must you hear this? >

Ok buddy, even though Michelin's statement http://www.formula1.com/race/news/3230/740.html points to revisions in the track, you must be right. A bit of a change makes no big difference in F1 - the margins in F1 are huge, it being such a crude sport and all, unlike Nascar. PLONK!

"Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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>> Jesus you're a thick one. The Indy 500 problem was with wear, and after >> they ground the track surface it wasn't a very big deal. The US Grand >> Prix problem was with structural failure of the tire carcass. >> Completely unrelated. How many times must you hear this? >> > > Actually I think everyone else here is equally thick. > Byron: > > 1. Is convinced that the fact that Michelin screwed up designing a > tire is soomehow Bridgestone's fault. >

Perhaps. I don't know what they knew. Obviously, you're one of the people who would stand back and potentially see Michelin runners get killed, I'm not in that category. > 2. Blames the FIA (and/or Ferrari) for not fixing Michelin's screwup > by redoing the track to suit Michelin's tire. > "To suit Michelin's tyre"? - what a lot of bullshit. To suit the fans and the sport more lile it ferrari boy! :) > Clearly there are no words that will change his mind. > 1/3 aint bad! :)

"alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:kKawe.28292$[email hidden]...

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> The problem with the Michelin tyres - as has been made abundantly evident > for anyone with the ability to read (see AutoSport, this week, as well as > Gazetta dello Sport, Thursday last week, Atlas-F1 article) is that > Michelin's design of its tyres are at fault - they could test 1 trillion > laps at Indy, it would make bugger all difference because the actual > design of the tyre (as opposed to its manufacture/compound) means it > cannot take over 800kilo loads - ther only thing Michelin could have done > was used last year's Michelin which, as far as I understand it, were > already on the limit (see Ralf's smash last year) - fact is, not only did > Michelin know they were in trouble last year, they probably knew they were > screwed this year before they even arrived at Indy (explaining why they > only had one tyre compound to begin with) - now, do me a favour, since > you've been reduced to name-calling, I take it you have nothing further to > contribute so - laters.. >

Well, now that we're back to the facts - http://www.formula1.com/race/news/3230/740.html See 2nd paragraph. No testing and a different surface - lets see anyone in here get it right building a tyre for that race! Bridgestone were privvy to info about the resurfaced track - simple fact.

"alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:1Pawe.28294$[email hidden]...

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> > Once more - it is NOT the compound that is at issue, it is the actual > DESIGN of the tyre by Michelin - now, why don't you do as I suggested and > do some reading up on the matter, and then, when you have finally > understood that there is NOTHING Michelin could have done about this - > other than completely re-designing their tyres - that work - and > outperform - Bridgestone on 99% of tracks - which would effectively mean > surrendering their entire season - and the billions of dollars of > investment - to create ONE tyre for ONE race. > > LAst year, Michelin was already marginal at Indy - this year they went > over the hump. > > It is a simple thing Byron, and I am sure that you'll be able to get it > sooner or later.

Yes, it is a simple thing - http://www.formula1.com/race/news/3230/740.html No testing and a different track. Ferrari would have been in the same boat without being privvy to Firestone data.

OK, I'll bite on this. I'm not trying to change your mind, just not willing to let your incorrect reading of my mind go unchallenged. > Perhaps. I don't know what they knew. Obviously, you're one of the > people who would stand back and potentially see Michelin runners get killed, > I'm not in that category. No, I just believe that any fair solution to "putting on a show" would have maintained the well earned advantage of the Bridgestone folks, all of them, including Minardi. Maybe put the chicane in and penalize the Michelin runners 5 laps. Or mandatory tire changes every X laps for the Michelin runners. Or mandatory use of the pit lane for the Michelin runners with an appropriate no passing zone for safety. The Michelin runners deserved to fight it out amongst themselves for seventh place (or higher if there were DNFs), they did not deserve a shot at winning. But the reason the Michelin runners were at risk was 1. Michelins screwup in making the tire, and 2. their unwillingness to have a solid backup, and 3. their unwillingness to scramble and make a sturdy substitute, surely within their capabilities. Instead, they tried to use a bad situation they created to blackmail the FIA into changing the rules to give them a shot at winning (the chicane) that they in no way deserved. > > 2. Blames the FIA (and/or Ferrari) for not fixing Michelin's screwup > > by redoing the track to suit Michelin's tire. > > > > "To suit Michelin's tyre"? - what a lot of bullshit. To suit the fans > and the sport more lile it ferrari boy! :) I'm far from a Ferrari supporter, I like underdogs, and am no fan of Schumacher. My big joy was seeing Jordan and Minardi finish well. The fact is that Michelins tire was fragile and no doubt fast. Slowing the circuit would inappropritely penalize Bridgestone for making a sturdier and no doubt slower tire. Any blame for "damage to the sport" lies soley with Michelin. I'm done here, and disavow in advance any further comments you have on what _I_ believe.

"Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:42c17585$0$777$[email hidden]...

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> > "alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:kKawe.28292$[email hidden]... >> The problem with the Michelin tyres - as has been made abundantly evident >> for anyone with the ability to read (see AutoSport, this week, as well as >> Gazetta dello Sport, Thursday last week, Atlas-F1 article) is that >> Michelin's design of its tyres are at fault - they could test 1 trillion >> laps at Indy, it would make bugger all difference because the actual >> design of the tyre (as opposed to its manufacture/compound) means it >> cannot take over 800kilo loads - ther only thing Michelin could have done >> was used last year's Michelin which, as far as I understand it, were >> already on the limit (see Ralf's smash last year) - fact is, not only did >> Michelin know they were in trouble last year, they probably knew they >> were screwed this year before they even arrived at Indy (explaining why >> they only had one tyre compound to begin with) - now, do me a favour, >> since you've been reduced to name-calling, I take it you have nothing >> further to contribute so - laters.. >> > > Well, now that we're back to the facts - > http://www.formula1.com/race/news/3230/740.html > > See 2nd paragraph. > > No testing and a different surface - lets see anyone in here get it > right building a tyre for that race! Bridgestone were privvy to info about > the resurfaced track - simple fact.

Well then you could say they were going the wrong way so how could they possibly test a left hand turn. LMAO -- Sean Higgins www.higpup.com My Trans Am Pictures http://www.higpup.com/ta Ferrari Pictures http://www.higpup.com/Ferrari

You all seem to be forgetting that Michelin and their teams agreed to race for no points if there was a chicane. Ferrari would still have won their points, but the fans could have seen a real race where likely Ferrari wouldn't have placed 1st and 2nd on the track. At least a full field "real" race would have occurred for the fans and TV audience. Not an optimal situation, but a lot better than the alternative. Ferrari was the only team that did not agree to that...and then at the last moment Jordan copped-out and Minardi reluctantly followed suit. Marc "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:42bffd42$0$779$[email hidden]...

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> > "Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> >> What don't you get about Ferrari and the other Bridgestone runners came >> prepared to race. The Michelin teams were not, this has NOTHING to do >> with Ferrari's decisions to compromise they're hard work to accommodate >> some dolts that can't make tires, who are cleaning up in the >> championship. Why would Ferrari want to change anything, Michelin screwed >> 7 teams out of potential points, and that is great for Ferrari as they >> CAME PREPARED. LOL >> > > I wonder what some of the other teams would have done if in Ferrari's > position? > > Mind you, it's ridiculous to ask teams anyway. >

They agreed Ferrari, Minardi and Jordan would get points and them (7 michelin teams) not? First I've heard of this. I heard the if they did the chicane, it would not be an FIA sanctioned event any longer, which means no points for anyone. -- Sean Higgins www.higpup.com My Trans Am Pictures http://www.higpup.com/ta Ferrari Pictures http://www.higpup.com/Ferrari "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:eUnwe.7633$[email hidden]... > You all seem to be forgetting that Michelin and their teams agreed to race > for no points if there was a chicane. Ferrari would still have won their > points, but the fans could have seen a real race where likely Ferrari > wouldn't have placed 1st and 2nd on the track. At least a full field > "real" race would have occurred for the fans and TV audience. Not an > optimal situation, but a lot better than the alternative. Ferrari was the > only team that did not agree to that...and then at the last moment Jordan > copped-out and Minardi reluctantly followed suit. > > Marc > > > > "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:42bffd42$0$779$[email hidden]... >> >> "Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:[email hidden]... >>> >>> What don't you get about Ferrari and the other Bridgestone runners came >>> prepared to race. The Michelin teams were not, this has NOTHING to do >>> with Ferrari's decisions to compromise they're hard work to accommodate >>> some dolts that can't make tires, who are cleaning up in the >>> championship. Why would Ferrari want to change anything, Michelin >>> screwed 7 teams out of potential points, and that is great for Ferrari >>> as they CAME PREPARED. LOL >>> >> >> I wonder what some of the other teams would have done if in Ferrari's >> position? >> >> Mind you, it's ridiculous to ask teams anyway. >> > >

"Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:eUnwe.7633$[email hidden]...

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> You all seem to be forgetting that Michelin and their teams agreed to race > for no points if there was a chicane. Ferrari would still have won their > points, but the fans could have seen a real race where likely Ferrari > wouldn't have placed 1st and 2nd on the track. At least a full field > "real" race would have occurred for the fans and TV audience. Not an > optimal situation, but a lot better than the alternative. Ferrari was the > only team that did not agree to that...and then at the last moment Jordan > copped-out and Minardi reluctantly followed suit. > > Marc > > > > "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:42bffd42$0$779$[email hidden]... >> >> "Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:[email hidden]... >>> >>> What don't you get about Ferrari and the other Bridgestone runners came >>> prepared to race. The Michelin teams were not, this has NOTHING to do >>> with Ferrari's decisions to compromise they're hard work to accommodate >>> some dolts that can't make tires, who are cleaning up in the >>> championship. Why would Ferrari want to change anything, Michelin >>> screwed 7 teams out of potential points, and that is great for Ferrari >>> as they CAME PREPARED. LOL >>> >> >> I wonder what some of the other teams would have done if in Ferrari's >> position? >> >> Mind you, it's ridiculous to ask teams anyway. >> >

Fans didn't come to watch a 'friendly' - it's like buying tickets to the world cup final and being told it's been changed into a friendly - this was meant to be a round of the FIA world championship. Were it not - most people wouldn't have bothered attending anyway.

"Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:42c17759$0$784$[email hidden]...

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> > "alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:1Pawe.28294$[email hidden]... >> >> Once more - it is NOT the compound that is at issue, it is the actual >> DESIGN of the tyre by Michelin - now, why don't you do as I suggested and >> do some reading up on the matter, and then, when you have finally >> understood that there is NOTHING Michelin could have done about this - >> other than completely re-designing their tyres - that work - and >> outperform - Bridgestone on 99% of tracks - which would effectively mean >> surrendering their entire season - and the billions of dollars of >> investment - to create ONE tyre for ONE race. >> >> LAst year, Michelin was already marginal at Indy - this year they went >> over the hump. >> >> It is a simple thing Byron, and I am sure that you'll be able to get it >> sooner or later. > > Yes, it is a simple thing - > http://www.formula1.com/race/news/3230/740.html > > No testing and a different track. Ferrari would have been in the same > boat without being privvy to Firestone data.

Yes, from your very own link: In a statement released on Tuesday, Michelin admitted its engineers had greatly underestimated the loads exerted on the rear left tyre through the corner, hinting that revisions to the regulations, the cars' aerodynamics and the track surface for 2005 had affected their pre-race calculations. "The problem was that we under-evaluated the extreme constraints to which tyres were exposed through Turn 13 in the specific context of 2005," confirmed Michelin Competition's Director, Pierre Dupasquier. Pointing out the unique nature of Turn 13 in Formula One racing, Michelin said it has now revised its simulation model for banked corners and requested that testing be allowed at Indianapolis ahead of future Grands Prix there. --------------------- In other words, it was NOT the compound it was the DESIGN of the tyre that was unable to take the loads from the banking - there is NOTHING that indicates it was the new surface that posed the problem, but THE LOAD EXERTED ON THE TYRE which is precisely what everyone - and his cousin - has been telling you for two weeks now. There are NO NEW LOADS EXERTED ON THE TYRES BECAUSE OF THE CHANGE IN TRACK SURFACE _ THE LOADS, as MICHELIN POINT OUT IN YOUR LINK, are because of the OVAL, and NOT because of the SURFACE - there was and is NOTHING Michelin can do to make a tyre for Indy - they sacrificed this race knowing that they would have an advantage on ALL OTHER tracks. Expect Bridgestone to learn a lesson here. Not Michelin.

"Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> OK, I'll bite on this. I'm not trying to change your mind, just not > willing to let your incorrect reading of my mind go unchallenged. > >> Perhaps. I don't know what they knew. Obviously, you're one of the >> people who would stand back and potentially see Michelin runners get >> killed, >> I'm not in that category. > > No, I just believe that any fair solution to "putting on a > show" would have maintained the well earned advantage of the > Bridgestone folks, all of them, including Minardi. Maybe put the > chicane in and penalize the Michelin runners 5 laps. Or mandatory tire > changes every X laps for the Michelin runners. Or mandatory use of the > pit lane for the Michelin runners with an appropriate no passing zone > for safety. The Michelin runners deserved to fight it out amongst > themselves for seventh place (or higher if there were DNFs), they did > not deserve a shot at winning. But the reason the Michelin runners > were at risk was 1. Michelins screwup in making the tire, and 2. > their unwillingness to have a solid backup, and 3. their unwillingness > to scramble and make a sturdy substitute, surely within their > capabilities. Instead, they tried to use a bad situation they created > to blackmail the FIA into changing the rules to give them a shot at > winning (the chicane) that they in no way deserved. >

All you say here fails to take into account the rules implemented by the FIA and the failure of the FIA to provide testing. By the time Michelin worked out they needed an all new tyre it was no doubt too late. Testing would have averted all of this. With chicane, I think having all the Bridgestone teams on the front 3 rows plus a stop/go, servable in the first 5 laps say, for the Michelin teams would have been fair. More than that, like you suggest, and we're deep back into "farce" territory imo.

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>> > 2. Blames the FIA (and/or Ferrari) for not fixing Michelin's screwup >> > by redoing the track to suit Michelin's tire. >> > >> >> "To suit Michelin's tyre"? - what a lot of bullshit. To suit the fans >> and the sport more lile it ferrari boy! :) > > I'm far from a Ferrari supporter, I like underdogs, and am > no fan of Schumacher. My big joy was seeing Jordan and Minardi finish > well. The fact is that Michelins tire was fragile and no doubt fast. > Slowing the circuit would inappropritely penalize Bridgestone for > making a sturdier and no doubt slower tire. Any blame for "damage to > the sport" lies soley with Michelin. >

"Any blame for "damage to the sport" lies soley with Michelin" - just rubbish. You also fail to realise the distinct possibility that Bridgestone were privvy to data about T13 that Michelin had no access to after resurfacing. > I'm done here, and disavow in advance any further comments you > have on what _I_ believe. > You will be assimilated! :)

"Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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>> >> No testing and a different surface - lets see anyone in here get it >> right building a tyre for that race! Bridgestone were privvy to info >> about the resurfaced track - simple fact. > > Well then you could say they were going the wrong way so how could they > possibly test a left hand turn. LMAO >

Well, at least you're paying attention! Data is data - general clues eg. stresses on tyres will be greater. Something like this would be easy to plan for if you knew about it. If not, where do you start your design plans from?

"alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ELuwe.31766$[email hidden]... > > Fans didn't come to watch a 'friendly' - it's like buying tickets to the > world cup final and being told it's been changed into a friendly - this > was meant to be a round of the FIA world championship. Were it not - most > people wouldn't have bothered attending anyway. > agreed.

"alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:tRuwe.31767$[email hidden]...

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> > In other words, it was NOT the compound it was the DESIGN of the tyre that > was unable to take the loads from the banking - there is NOTHING that > indicates it was the new surface that posed the problem, but THE LOAD > EXERTED ON THE TYRE which is precisely what everyone - and his cousin - > has been telling you for two weeks now. There are NO NEW LOADS EXERTED ON > THE TYRES BECAUSE OF THE CHANGE IN TRACK SURFACE _ THE LOADS, as MICHELIN > POINT OUT IN YOUR LINK, are because of the OVAL, and NOT because of the > SURFACE - there was and is NOTHING Michelin can do to make a tyre for > Indy - they sacrificed this race knowing that they would have an advantage > on ALL OTHER tracks. >

I don't know why you harp on about compound Vs construction - there is no failure to understand this on my part. The fact is that the track was resurfaced and is thus slightly geometrically different and also some sort of change traction and abrasion wise would be expected. It could be bumpier which would place more stress as it bounced more. More traction would stress the entire tyre more as it went thru its harmonics Ridges/irregularities in the track could create shredding/tearing All these possibilities an NO TESTING????????????? To suggest Michelin decided to be fast everywhere else and totally stuff up at IMS is rubbish. They can have solid rubber tyres if they like, but need track data b4 making an accurate decision of construction/compound - simple.

Byron Forbes wrote in news:42c2897e$0$778$[email hidden] om.au:

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> > "alex martini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:tRuwe.31767$[email hidden]... >> >> In other words, it was NOT the compound it was the DESIGN of the >> tyre that was unable to take the loads from the banking - there >> is NOTHING that indicates it was the new surface that posed the >> problem, but THE LOAD EXERTED ON THE TYRE which is precisely what >> everyone - and his cousin - has been telling you for two weeks >> now. There are NO NEW LOADS EXERTED ON THE TYRES BECAUSE OF THE >> CHANGE IN TRACK SURFACE _ THE LOADS, as MICHELIN POINT OUT IN >> YOUR LINK, are because of the OVAL, and NOT because of the >> SURFACE - there was and is NOTHING Michelin can do to make a tyre >> for Indy - they sacrificed this race knowing that they would have >> an advantage on ALL OTHER tracks. >> > > I don't know why you harp on about compound Vs construction - > there is > no failure to understand this on my part. > > The fact is that the track was resurfaced and is thus slightly > geometrically different and also some sort of change traction and > abrasion wise would be expected. > > It could be bumpier which would place more stress as it > bounced more. More traction would stress the entire tyre more > as it went thru its > harmonics > Ridges/irregularities in the track could create > shredding/tearing > > All these possibilities an NO TESTING?????????????

It's one of those FIA rules. There are VERY limited number of tracks at which teams may test. The tire companies cannot test on their own (because they do not have formula 1 cars to test with, and to test with any other car would be, at best, a wild approximation -- which is what got us into this mess in the first place.)

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> > To suggest Michelin decided to be fast everywhere else and > totally stuff > up at IMS is rubbish. They can have solid rubber tyres if they > like, but need track data b4 making an accurate decision of > construction/compound - simple. > > >

"Darryl Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%9wwe.7986$[email hidden]...

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> Byron Forbes wrote in > news:42c2897e$0$778$[email hidden] > om.au: >> >> The fact is that the track was resurfaced and is thus slightly >> geometrically different and also some sort of change traction and >> abrasion wise would be expected. >> >> It could be bumpier which would place more stress as it >> bounced more. More traction would stress the entire tyre more >> as it went thru its >> harmonics >> Ridges/irregularities in the track could create >> shredding/tearing >> >> All these possibilities an NO TESTING????????????? > > It's one of those FIA rules. There are VERY limited number of tracks > at which teams may test. The tire companies cannot test on their own > (because they do not have formula 1 cars to test with, and to test > with any other car would be, at best, a wild approximation -- which > is what got us into this mess in the first place.) >

Yes. This is what annoys me with all the finger pointing at Michelin and the implication that the FIA is blameless. The FIA has introduced - 1/ 1 Tyre for the entire race + qualifying 2/ Tyre companies may have only 2 options of tyres Even without the special T13 of the IMS, with the ever changing nature of the cars, regulations and tracks/surfaces, with these sort of rules it is just about guaranteed that you will eventually find yourself in a situation like what we just had at IMS. Solution - test at every track. Maybe move the Friday prac to a Monday or Tuesday. This gives companies a chance to react to a situation like we just had at IMS - OR the FIA specifies some sort of super durable tyre that all teams must have available at any race - a 3rd failsafe. With the present rules, backup option tyres will not be too different from the bullseye tyre - why should they think the bullseye will be so off the mark? And this is where the problem is. As a tyre designer, you don't want a backup that makes McLarens slower than Jordans! Now on top of it all, we have the FIA holding the teams and especially Michelin, to ransom with the suspended penalty - IT STINKS!

"Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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>> Perhaps. I don't know what they knew. Obviously, you're one of the >> people who would stand back and potentially see Michelin runners get >> killed, >> I'm not in that category. > > No, I just believe that any fair solution to "putting on a > show" would have maintained the well earned advantage of the > Bridgestone folks, all of them, including Minardi. Maybe put the > chicane in and penalize the Michelin runners 5 laps.

I don't believe that a hastily knocked together tyre chicane would have neccessarily been any safer than running flat out on dodgy tyres. It would have added 73 additional heavy braking zones for each driver, on top of the amount of braking zones expected when the brake discs had been chosen, hence increasing the risk of brake failure (for 20 drivers, not just 14). Should there have been a serious accident at the tyre chicane (either caused by brake failure or some other factor) which had resulted in an injury or fatality of any kind, then whoever gave the nod to a chicane would potentially be liable, as I understand these things. > Or mandatory tire > changes every X laps for the Michelin runners. There weren't the spare tyres available. 1 set per car to last the whole race, remember? The tyre suppliers don't drag along hundreds of the things to every race any more. In any case, what was the proper value odf X to ensure safety? Ralf's tyre failure was reportedly on his FIRST flying lap of the weekend. > Or mandatory use of the > pit lane for the Michelin runners with an appropriate no passing zone > for safety. The Michelin runners deserved to fight it out amongst > themselves for seventh place (or higher if there were DNFs), they did > not deserve a shot at winning. Going through the pitlane every lap would have probably (it'd have been fairly close) have slowed the Michelin drivers down enough that'd they'd have not completed 90% of race distance, and hence not have been able to score any points anyway. Besides, 14 cars driving through the pits every lap makes for a very crowded pitlane, and again, wouldn't have neccessarily been any safer (not for the pit crews, certainly). And would have arguably been just as much of a farce as a 6 car race. > But the reason the Michelin runners > were at risk was 1. Michelins screwup in making the tire, Yes. > and 2. > their unwillingness to have a solid backup, Ah, you believe that particular item of Mosleyist propaganda, then? There is no requirement for the tyre supplier to bring 1 "fast" tyre compound and 1 "safe" tyre compound, despite the FIA's revisionist statements. Tyre suppliers bring _up_to_ 2 compounds, the teams run them on Friday to find out which suits the driver/ car/ strategy/ track better. There is no responsibility on the supplier to provide a bullet proof "backup" tyre in case of a problem with the first choice. As such, both Michelin tyre constructions happened to suffer from the same flaw. > and 3. their unwillingness > to scramble and make a sturdy substitute, surely within their > capabilities. As I understand it, substitute Michelin's *were* flown out, but got no further than the airport at Indianapolis, as the FIA, in line with the rules, prevented any substitute from being fitted to the Michelin cars. > I'm far from a Ferrari supporter, I like underdogs, and am > no fan of Schumacher. My big joy was seeing Jordan and Minardi finish > well. The fact is that Michelins tire was fragile and no doubt fast. > Slowing the circuit would inappropritely penalize Bridgestone for > making a sturdier and no doubt slower tire. Bridgestone's tyres being slower have little to do with their being tougher (ask Schumi about his 'sturdy' Bridgestones at Barcelona), and more to do with their systematic alienation over the past few years of the big teams other than Ferrari, thus denying them testing data. > Any blame for "damage to > the sport" lies soley with Michelin. This bit, I agree with, up until the day after the race. The behaviour of the FIA since then in relasing misleading statements and levelling unfair charges against the teams has been highly damaging in itself. Tim -- ---------------- I love the smell of vomit in the newsgroup, it smells like...VICTORY! Jim M - Usenet out-take If you want to reply by email, replace the asterisks with underscores. Currently listening to: 'Seal My Fate' - Belly

Marc Collins wrote:

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> You all seem to be forgetting that Michelin and their teams agreed to race > for no points if there was a chicane. Ferrari would still have won their > points, but the fans could have seen a real race where likely Ferrari > wouldn't have placed 1st and 2nd on the track. At least a full field "real" > race would have occurred for the fans and TV audience. Not an optimal > situation, but a lot better than the alternative. Ferrari was the only team > that did not agree to that...and then at the last moment Jordan copped-out > and Minardi reluctantly followed suit.

I don't understand why esp. US racing fans make a big noise about the 6 car race. If it rains before or during a ChampCar/NASCAR race, there's simply no race at all...at least on ovals. They should be used to it... l8er ronny

Ronald Stoehr wrote: > I don't understand why esp. US racing fans make a big noise about the 6 car > race. If it rains before or during a ChampCar/NASCAR race, there's simply > no race at all...at least on ovals. They should be used to it... There's a huge difference between a race being cancelled due to inclement weather and stupidity on the part of the participants.

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Ronald Stoehr wrote: > >> I don't understand why esp. US racing fans make a big noise about the 6 >> car >> race. If it rains before or during a ChampCar/NASCAR race, there's simply >> no race at all...at least on ovals. They should be used to it... > > There's a huge difference between a race being cancelled due to > inclement weather and stupidity on the part of the participants. >

Also, if you're looking at attending one of those you know the risks. People came hundreds and thousands of miles, set aside the time, forked out a ton of cash, etc. The FIA STINKS!