Dale Sr. didn't want H.A.N.S.

I just saw a news story about the race. In it, they were saying that there is this device called H.A.N.S. It stands for "Head And Neck Support". It's a device that the drivers wear around their shoulders, kind of like a "U" shape device, which has an attachment at the back, for a short strap that goes directly to the back of the helmet. The way it works is that, it prevents the head from moving too far forward in a front-on crash. When such an accident happens, the neck muscles on a particular driver may be strong, but the problem occurs at the base of the skull where the breakage actually occurs. They also said that in Nascar, it's not compulsory, as it is in other auto sports. Only 4 or 5 drivers are currently using the device. They also said that the last 7 deaths that have occured, would have been prevented if the drivers were wearing this device. According to the story, Dale knew about the device and had seen the videos of crash tests, but he didn't want to use it. If you like, you can read more about it here: http://www.racingone.com/article.asp?artnum=4996

This has only been mentioned, what, a couple of thousand times in RAS? Freedom of choice and acceptance of responsiblity. He knew the risks and made his choice. He's dead, let's move on. "Incubus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:mkTk6.3080$[email hidden]...

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> I just saw a news story about the race. In it, they were saying that there > is this device called H.A.N.S. > > It stands for "Head And Neck Support". > > It's a device that the drivers wear around their shoulders, kind of like a > "U" shape device, which has an attachment at the back, for a short strap > that goes directly to the back of the helmet. > > The way it works is that, it prevents the head from moving too far forward > in a front-on crash. When such an accident happens, the neck muscles on a > particular driver may be strong, but the problem occurs at the base of the > skull where the breakage actually occurs. > > They also said that in Nascar, it's not compulsory, as it is in other auto > sports. Only 4 or 5 drivers are currently using the device. They also said > that the last 7 deaths that have occured, would have been prevented if the > drivers were wearing this device. > > According to the story, Dale knew about the device and had seen the videos > of crash tests, but he didn't want to use it. > > If you like, you can read more about it here: > > http://www.racingone.com/article.asp?artnum=4996 > >

AndrewS wrote: > > This has only been mentioned, what, a couple of thousand times in RAS? > Freedom of choice and acceptance of responsiblity. He knew the risks and > made his choice. He's dead, let's move on. Unfortunately, it was his decision. But athlete's such as racers are stubborn and don't know what is for their own good or even the average person for that matter doesn't know what is for their own good. This is the reason why helmets are mandated in racing and there was a law made for seat belts and motorcycle helmets. If they didn't then people wouldn't use them. NASCAR needs to make them mandatory if they are proven to help, which they are. Did I want to wear a neck protector in hockey? No! It was uncomfortable and made you sweat even more and at first it felt like you were being choked. You felt like it was holding you back and wrecking your concentration. I swore when they made it mandatory but I didn't have much of a choice. I got used to it rather quick and later on if I didn't have it on I felt naked. It saved my life a couple times so I'm really happy they mandated or I wouldn't of worn one even if it was for my own good. After watching Clint Malarchuck in Buffalo nearly bleed to death on the ice when he got his throat slit open by a skate blade I'm glad I was wearing one. Clint was wearing one when he came back and I bet he wish the NHL mandated it as well so he didn't have to go through the trauma. This is exactly the same as the HANS device. People are just afraid of new things and change. Dale made his own decision, lets hope others learn from it. -- Solo1 C-Modified (CASC-OR/BARC) http://www.barc-oc.com http://www.casc.on.ca

Yep. We all make bad choices. "AndrewS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:N_Tk6.1558$[email hidden]...

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> This has only been mentioned, what, a couple of thousand times in RAS? > Freedom of choice and acceptance of responsiblity. He knew the risks and > made his choice. He's dead, let's move on. > > "Incubus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:mkTk6.3080$[email hidden]... > > I just saw a news story about the race. In it, they were saying that

there > > is this device called H.A.N.S. > > > > It stands for "Head And Neck Support". > > > > It's a device that the drivers wear around their shoulders, kind of likea > > "U" shape device, which has an attachment at the back, for a short strap > > that goes directly to the back of the helmet. > > > > The way it works is that, it prevents the head from moving too farforward > > in a front-on crash. When such an accident happens, the neck muscles ona > > particular driver may be strong, but the problem occurs at the base ofthe > > skull where the breakage actually occurs. > > > > They also said that in Nascar, it's not compulsory, as it is in otherauto > > sports. Only 4 or 5 drivers are currently using the device. They alsosaid > > that the last 7 deaths that have occured, would have been prevented ifthe > > drivers were wearing this device. > > > > According to the story, Dale knew about the device and had seen thevideos

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> > of crash tests, but he didn't want to use it. > > > > If you like, you can read more about it here: > > > > http://www.racingone.com/article.asp?artnum=4996 > > > > > >

You're new to racing apparently. Everyone is familiar with the HANS Device. NASCAR doesn't mandate it, but it probably should. Dale was very old-school and refused to use much of the modern safety equipment many other drivers use. He died because of it. And no, his life would not have been saved just because of a HANS system. Ridiculous! :( -- ------------------------------------- Morgan Vincent Wooten GPLRank: +10.02 http://home.earthlink.net/~morganv00/ ------------------------------------- "Incubus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:mkTk6.3080$[email hidden]... > I just saw a news story about the race. In it, they were saying that there > is this device called H.A.N.S. > > It stands for "Head And Neck Support". > > It's a device that the drivers wear around their shoulders, kind of like a > "U" shape device, which has an attachment at the back, for a short strap > that goes directly to the back of the helmet. > > The way it works is that, it prevents the head from moving too far forward > in a front-on crash. When such an accident happens, the neck muscles on a > particular driver may be strong, but the problem occurs at the base of the > skull where the breakage actually occurs. > > They also said that in Nascar, it's not compulsory, as it is in other auto > sports. Only 4 or 5 drivers are currently using the device. They also said > that the last 7 deaths that have occured, would have been prevented if the > drivers were wearing this device. > > According to the story, Dale knew about the device and had seen the videos > of crash tests, but he didn't want to use it. > > If you like, you can read more about it here: > > http://www.racingone.com/article.asp?artnum=4996 > > >

Any other safety devices you would like to see become optional? "AndrewS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:N_Tk6.1558$[email hidden]... > This has only been mentioned, what, a couple of thousand times in RAS? > Freedom of choice and acceptance of responsiblity. He knew the risks and > made his choice. He's dead, let's move on.

Right we are trying to find out in the NASCAR rule book, which NASCAR won't make public and only a selected few have seen it, but we think Helmets and Firesuits are optional in NASCAR WC, believe it or not. Simon Brown wrote:

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> > Any other safety devices you would like to see become optional? > > "AndrewS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:N_Tk6.1558$[email hidden]... > > This has only been mentioned, what, a couple of thousand times in RAS? > > Freedom of choice and acceptance of responsiblity. He knew the risks and > > made his choice. He's dead, let's move on.

-- Solo1 C-Modified (CASC-OR/BARC) 76 Trans-Am 600+hp http://www.barc-oc.com http://www.casc.on.ca

Unbelievable. David G Fisher "Alan Orton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Right we are trying to find out in the NASCAR rule book, which NASCAR > won't make public and only a selected few have seen it, but we think > Helmets and Firesuits are optional in NASCAR WC, believe it or not. > > Simon Brown wrote: > > > > Any other safety devices you would like to see become optional? > > > > "AndrewS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:N_Tk6.1558$[email hidden]... > > > This has only been mentioned, what, a couple of thousand times in RAS? > > > Freedom of choice and acceptance of responsiblity. He knew the risks

and

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> > > made his choice. He's dead, let's move on. > > -- > Solo1 C-Modified (CASC-OR/BARC) > 76 Trans-Am 600+hp > http://www.barc-oc.com > http://www.casc.on.ca

"Incubus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:mkTk6.3080$[email hidden]...

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> I just saw a news story about the race. In it, they were saying that there > is this device called H.A.N.S. > > It stands for "Head And Neck Support". > > It's a device that the drivers wear around their shoulders, kind of like a > "U" shape device, which has an attachment at the back, for a short strap > that goes directly to the back of the helmet. > > The way it works is that, it prevents the head from moving too far forward > in a front-on crash. When such an accident happens, the neck muscles on a > particular driver may be strong, but the problem occurs at the base of the > skull where the breakage actually occurs. > > They also said that in Nascar, it's not compulsory, as it is in other auto > sports. Only 4 or 5 drivers are currently using the device. They also said > that the last 7 deaths that have occured, would have been prevented if the > drivers were wearing this device. > > According to the story, Dale knew about the device and had seen the videos > of crash tests, but he didn't want to use it. > > If you like, you can read more about it here: > > http://www.racingone.com/article.asp?artnum=4996 > >

Stan Fox was in a coma for months after his Indy 500 crash. There wasn't so much as a scuff mark on his helmet. How can this happen? Because if the impact generates enough g loading the brain is damaged by the simple act of impacting on the inside of the skull. The H.A.N.S. device actually INCREASES the chance of this happening. Every safty device is an engineering trade off. Belts actually crush the chest cavity if the impact is hard enough. It's a matter of playing the odds, NOT total protection. There is, very simply, * no safty device in the world* that protects a driver once the g forces exceed a certain amount. KFG

On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 21:53:07 GMT, "Morgan V. Wooten" <[email hidden]> wrote: > Dale was very old-school and >refused to use much of the modern safety equipment many other drivers use. He >died because of it. Which modern safety equipment would have saved his life? ~daxe

>Right we are trying to find out in the NASCAR rule book, which NASCAR >won't make public and only a selected few have seen it, but we think >Helmets and Firesuits are optional in NASCAR WC, believe it or not. > I believe DW mentioned that firesuits became mandatory while speaking in a recent interview. It was on a special about the WC that aired on Fox Sports Net this weekend. -And David, try to at least WAIT for proof before you place guilt....Napoleonic Law doesn't apply in our nation- Alan Dale Earnhardt, 1951-2001: "The Last American Hero" R.I.P.

The vast majority of Nascar Drivers do NOT use HANS. I think you can count the number of drivers that do on one hand... -Larry "Incubus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:mkTk6.3080$[email hidden]...

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> I just saw a news story about the race. In it, they were saying that there > is this device called H.A.N.S. > > It stands for "Head And Neck Support". > > It's a device that the drivers wear around their shoulders, kind of like a > "U" shape device, which has an attachment at the back, for a short strap > that goes directly to the back of the helmet. > > The way it works is that, it prevents the head from moving too far forward > in a front-on crash. When such an accident happens, the neck muscles on a > particular driver may be strong, but the problem occurs at the base of the > skull where the breakage actually occurs. > > They also said that in Nascar, it's not compulsory, as it is in other auto > sports. Only 4 or 5 drivers are currently using the device. They also said > that the last 7 deaths that have occured, would have been prevented if the > drivers were wearing this device. > > According to the story, Dale knew about the device and had seen the videos > of crash tests, but he didn't want to use it. > > If you like, you can read more about it here: > > http://www.racingone.com/article.asp?artnum=4996 > >

It has been said time and time again, a HANS device would not have saved him. The Dr's said so, and the Autopsy Report makes it pretty clear... It was bad luck, nothing more, nothing less... -Larry "Morgan V. Wooten" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:7NWk6.242$[email hidden]... > You're new to racing apparently. Everyone is familiar with the HANSDevice. > NASCAR doesn't mandate it, but it probably should. Dale was veryold-school and > refused to use much of the modern safety equipment many other drivers use.He > died because of it. And no, his life would not have been saved justbecause of a

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> HANS system. Ridiculous! :( > > -- > ------------------------------------- > Morgan Vincent Wooten > GPLRank: +10.02 > http://home.earthlink.net/~morganv00/ > ------------------------------------- > > > "Incubus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:mkTk6.3080$[email hidden]... > > I just saw a news story about the race. In it, they were saying that

there > > is this device called H.A.N.S. > > > > It stands for "Head And Neck Support". > > > > It's a device that the drivers wear around their shoulders, kind of likea > > "U" shape device, which has an attachment at the back, for a short strap > > that goes directly to the back of the helmet. > > > > The way it works is that, it prevents the head from moving too farforward > > in a front-on crash. When such an accident happens, the neck muscles ona > > particular driver may be strong, but the problem occurs at the base ofthe > > skull where the breakage actually occurs. > > > > They also said that in Nascar, it's not compulsory, as it is in otherauto > > sports. Only 4 or 5 drivers are currently using the device. They alsosaid > > that the last 7 deaths that have occured, would have been prevented ifthe > > drivers were wearing this device. > > > > According to the story, Dale knew about the device and had seen thevideos

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> > of crash tests, but he didn't want to use it. > > > > If you like, you can read more about it here: > > > > http://www.racingone.com/article.asp?artnum=4996 > > > > > > > >

Alan Conceicao wrote:

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> > >Right we are trying to find out in the NASCAR rule book, which NASCAR > >won't make public and only a selected few have seen it, but we think > >Helmets and Firesuits are optional in NASCAR WC, believe it or not. > > > > I believe DW mentioned that firesuits became mandatory while speaking in a > recent interview. It was on a special about the WC that aired on Fox Sports Net > this weekend. > > -And David, try to at least WAIT for proof before you place guilt....Napoleonic > Law doesn't apply in our nation- > Alan > > Dale Earnhardt, 1951-2001: > "The Last American Hero" > R.I.P.

You could be right, it is hard to believe they wouldn't make such a thing mandatory. Still trying to find out for sure but it is pretty much futile to find the truth. -- Solo1 C-Modified (CASC-OR/BARC) http://www.barc-oc.com http://www.casc.on.ca

daxe wrote:

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> > On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 21:53:07 GMT, "Morgan V. Wooten" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > Dale was very old-school and > >refused to use much of the modern safety equipment many other drivers use. He > >died because of it. > > Which modern safety equipment would have saved his life?

None. -- Fester Restrictor plate racing killed Dale Earnhardt.

Simon Brown wrote: > > Any other safety devices you would like to see become optional? All of it. I'd call it freedom. 'Course many would call me a radical. Or worse. <g> -- Fester Restrictor plate racing killed Dale Earnhardt.

> Fester > > Restrictor plate racing killed Dale Earnhardt.no the wall did. plenty of other drivers survived the restrictor plate affair. We could go on and on all night what could or couldn't have caused the wreck. If anyone but Michael had been in front, would he have held back to block the pack? Do we blame Michael and Dale Jr? Do we blame Kenny Schrader? Do we blame Dale himself? No... remember the three very similar deaths last year came not on high banked tracks, nor plate tracks. Racing killed Dale Earnhardt. dave henrie

Where can we read the autopsy report? I haven't seen any definitive statements by the doctors who treated Dale that the HANS device definitely wouldn't have saved him. The statements I've seen were that "we don't know" or "the HANS device might not have saved him". Alison On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 02:40:17 GMT, "Dog-Leg" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>It has been said time and time again, a HANS device would not have saved >him. The Dr's said so, and the Autopsy Report makes it pretty clear... > >It was bad luck, nothing more, nothing less... > >-Larry > >"Morgan V. Wooten" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:7NWk6.242$[email hidden]... >> You're new to racing apparently. Everyone is familiar with the HANS >Device. >> NASCAR doesn't mandate it, but it probably should. Dale was very >old-school and >> refused to use much of the modern safety equipment many other drivers use. >He >> died because of it. And no, his life would not have been saved just >because of a >> HANS system. Ridiculous! :( >> >> -- >> ------------------------------------- >> Morgan Vincent Wooten >> GPLRank: +10.02 >> http://home.earthlink.net/~morganv00/ >> ------------------------------------- >> >> >> "Incubus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:mkTk6.3080$[email hidden]... >> > I just saw a news story about the race. In it, they were saying that >there >> > is this device called H.A.N.S. >> > >> > It stands for "Head And Neck Support". >> > >> > It's a device that the drivers wear around their shoulders, kind of like >a >> > "U" shape device, which has an attachment at the back, for a short strap >> > that goes directly to the back of the helmet. >> > >> > The way it works is that, it prevents the head from moving too far >forward >> > in a front-on crash. When such an accident happens, the neck muscles on >a >> > particular driver may be strong, but the problem occurs at the base of >the >> > skull where the breakage actually occurs. >> > >> > They also said that in Nascar, it's not compulsory, as it is in other >auto >> > sports. Only 4 or 5 drivers are currently using the device. They also >said >> > that the last 7 deaths that have occured, would have been prevented if >the >> > drivers were wearing this device. >> > >> > According to the story, Dale knew about the device and had seen the >videos >> > of crash tests, but he didn't want to use it. >> > >> > If you like, you can read more about it here: >> > >> > http://www.racingone.com/article.asp?artnum=4996 >> > >> > >> > >> >> >

Alison From: [email hidden] Reply-To: [email hidden] Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me. http://eaglewoman.maximumspeed.net

"Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > All of it. I'd call it freedom. 'Course many would call me a radical. > Or worse. <g> > > -- > > Fester > > Restrictor plate racing killed Dale Earnhardt.

Restictor plates slow the cars in the wrong way, why not just reduce engine size or something that won't lead to exaggerated drafting? I hope you wouldn't like to see seat-belts become optional, and helmets, and fire-proof overalls, and side-impact protection, and those anti-flip things on the roof (can you tell I don't watch a lot of Nascar? ;) ), etc etc. Even if racing fans do go just to see crashes, we can have crashes with less chance of fatalities. And the series will lose appeal if it continues to lose the top drivers in accidents. I can't see a good argument against making HANS compulsory. Cramping the drivers style isn't a good argument either, that's why Nascar don't let them race in t-shirt, jeans and baseball cap.

"Kevin Gavitt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:fP_k6.160169$[email hidden]... > > Stan Fox was in a coma for months after his Indy 500 crash. There wasn'tso > much as a scuff mark on his helmet. > > How can this happen? Because if the impact generates enough g loading the > brain is damaged by the simple act of impacting on the inside of theskull. > The H.A.N.S. device actually INCREASES the chance of this happening. Every > safty device is an engineering trade off. Belts actually crush the chest > cavity if the impact is hard enough. It's a matter of playing the odds,NOT > total protection. > > There is, very simply, * no safty device in the world* that protects a > driver once the g forces exceed a certain amount. > > KFG That's all true, and indeed I would guess that every safety device can actually be a hindrance under certain conditions, *but* you have to weigh the benefits against the harm for each device, and if it will save more lives than it takes, then in the long wrong it's better to have it.

Yes...thats what I saw too...that they can't say for sure. "Alison Hine" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Where can we read the autopsy report? > > I haven't seen any definitive statements by the doctors who treated Dale > that the HANS device definitely wouldn't have saved him. The statements > I've seen were that "we don't know" or "the HANS device might not have > saved him". > > Alison > > On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 02:40:17 GMT, "Dog-Leg" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >It has been said time and time again, a HANS device would not have saved > >him. The Dr's said so, and the Autopsy Report makes it pretty clear... > > > >It was bad luck, nothing more, nothing less... > > > >-Larry > > > >"Morgan V. Wooten" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:7NWk6.242$[email hidden]... > >> You're new to racing apparently. Everyone is familiar with the HANS > >Device. > >> NASCAR doesn't mandate it, but it probably should. Dale was very > >old-school and > >> refused to use much of the modern safety equipment many other drivers

use.

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> >He > >> died because of it. And no, his life would not have been saved just > >because of a > >> HANS system. Ridiculous! :( > >> > >> -- > >> ------------------------------------- > >> Morgan Vincent Wooten > >> GPLRank: +10.02 > >> http://home.earthlink.net/~morganv00/ > >> ------------------------------------- > >> > >> > >> "Incubus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >> news:mkTk6.3080$[email hidden]... > >> > I just saw a news story about the race. In it, they were saying that > >there > >> > is this device called H.A.N.S. > >> > > >> > It stands for "Head And Neck Support". > >> > > >> > It's a device that the drivers wear around their shoulders, kind of

like > >a > >> > "U" shape device, which has an attachment at the back, for a shortstrap > >> > that goes directly to the back of the helmet. > >> > > >> > The way it works is that, it prevents the head from moving too far > >forward > >> > in a front-on crash. When such an accident happens, the neck muscleson > >a > >> > particular driver may be strong, but the problem occurs at the baseof

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> >the > >> > skull where the breakage actually occurs. > >> > > >> > They also said that in Nascar, it's not compulsory, as it is in other > >auto > >> > sports. Only 4 or 5 drivers are currently using the device. They also > >said > >> > that the last 7 deaths that have occured, would have been prevented

if

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> >the > >> > drivers were wearing this device. > >> > > >> > According to the story, Dale knew about the device and had seen the > >videos > >> > of crash tests, but he didn't want to use it. > >> > > >> > If you like, you can read more about it here: > >> > > >> > http://www.racingone.com/article.asp?artnum=4996 > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > Alison > > From: [email hidden] > Reply-To: [email hidden] > Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me. > http://eaglewoman.maximumspeed.net

Thats true, but if I was racing, I'd use it. I'd use any safety device that was developed. And I'd be the first to try it out, if given the opportunity. But I realise, everyone is different. "Dog-Leg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:SY_k6.2333$[email hidden]...

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> The vast majority of Nascar Drivers do NOT use HANS. > > I think you can count the number of drivers that do on one hand... > > -Larry > > "Incubus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:mkTk6.3080$[email hidden]... > > I just saw a news story about the race. In it, they were saying that

there > > is this device called H.A.N.S. > > > > It stands for "Head And Neck Support". > > > > It's a device that the drivers wear around their shoulders, kind of likea > > "U" shape device, which has an attachment at the back, for a short strap > > that goes directly to the back of the helmet. > > > > The way it works is that, it prevents the head from moving too farforward > > in a front-on crash. When such an accident happens, the neck muscles ona > > particular driver may be strong, but the problem occurs at the base ofthe > > skull where the breakage actually occurs. > > > > They also said that in Nascar, it's not compulsory, as it is in otherauto > > sports. Only 4 or 5 drivers are currently using the device. They alsosaid > > that the last 7 deaths that have occured, would have been prevented ifthe > > drivers were wearing this device. > > > > According to the story, Dale knew about the device and had seen thevideos

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> > of crash tests, but he didn't want to use it. > > > > If you like, you can read more about it here: > > > > http://www.racingone.com/article.asp?artnum=4996 > > > > > >

A lot of interesting points in there... On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 06:06:30 GMT, "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote: >> Fester >> >> Restrictor plate racing killed Dale Earnhardt. > >no the wall did. The only way to save drivers from these sort of rapid deceleration accidents (probably 75-100 instantaneous g's or more) is to reduce the deceleration. Something like HANS will only transfer the deceleration from the neck to inside the skull -- it's a "choice" between instant death or lingering brain death. The two simplest ways would be a more deformable chassis ("crush/crumple zones") or softer walls. I'm not sure how far you can go on a more deformable chassis, with the concrete walls and the cost constraints (team money) of NASCAR. I think softer walls is a better bet. It will cost money, but it will be series and track owner money (deeper pockets). The experimental walls at Indy seemed to to work well (at least for a small IROC field). I think the problem of debris cleanup time is justifiable if it only occurs in rare (life-saving) cases. I'm not sure how the Indy walls are built, but I picture a three-layer structure: an inner wall that is strong enough to withstand "minor" crashes (low force/g events in which a solid concrete wall wouldn't harm drivers and wouldn't necessitate lengthy cleanup for minor incidents) but that yields in high force/g events, a soft layer to gradually decelerate the cars, and an outer concrete wall to protect the fans. > plenty of other drivers survived the restrictor plate >affair. We could go on and on all night what could or couldn't have >caused the wreck. If anyone but Michael had been in front, would >he have held back to block the pack? While much has been made of it, I don't think Dale was sandbagging to block. He just doesn't know how to do that. Looking at the performance of the car and consdiring the numerous dings it got through the race (particularly with Schrader in the pits), I think he was giving it all he had, and those circumstances put him in 3rd and blocking. > Do we blame Michael and Dale Jr? >Do we blame Kenny Schrader? I don't "blame" Kenny, but my hunch is that the final tip from the presence of Kenny's car put Dale's car at a much higher angle of attack to the wall and significantly increased the force of impact. I think that single factor probably made all the difference. :( Also, someone you didn't mention is Sterling. I'm a Dale fan, but to my eyes Sterling was holding his line and Dale came down into him (either consciously or that's just the way the car went), starting it all off. All of the harrassment that he's getting now over the incident only makes a sad situation that much sadder. Also, I haven't had the heart to watch the replays enough, but what did Dale's spotter say just before the crash? He had been saying "three wide, car low", then there was something different, then Dale moved down the track. Maybe we can "blame" the spotter too while we're at it. :( > Do we blame Dale himself? No... Well, Dale himself was running pretty fast and loose out there. But he's Dale, he's invincable... :( > remember the three very similar deaths last year came not on high >banked tracks, nor plate tracks. > Racing killed Dale Earnhardt. And racing *made* his life for all these years... "But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark

Simon Brown wrote:

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> I hope you wouldn't like to see seat-belts become optional, and helmets, and > fire-proof overalls, and side-impact protection, and those anti-flip things > on the roof (can you tell I don't watch a lot of Nascar? ;) ), etc etc. > > Even if racing fans do go just to see crashes, we can have crashes with less > chance of fatalities. And the series will lose appeal if it continues to > lose the top drivers in accidents. I can't see a good argument against > making HANS compulsory. Cramping the drivers style isn't a good argument > either, that's why Nascar don't let them race in t-shirt, jeans and baseball > cap.

Well, I can't state it nearly as well as Joe62 did in the thread "NASCAR should be shut down", so I'll just quote him here. "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote: >You knew it was going to happen, and so did I. So did the drivers in the race. Who the hell are you to tell them what risks they should be allowed to take? Joe McGinn" The actual context of his quote may not apply, but IMHO the thought itself does. Given most human's safety-conciousness, the bulk of the equipment would be worn voluntarily as it is. When it's not my life to save or lose, who the hell am I to dictate what *must* be worn? Cheers -- Fester Restrictor plate racing killed Dale Earnhardt.

Dave Henrie wrote:

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> > > Fester > > > > Restrictor plate racing killed Dale Earnhardt. > no the wall did. plenty of other drivers survived the restrictor plate > affair. We could go on and on all night what could or couldn't have > caused the wreck. If anyone but Michael had been in front, would > he have held back to block the pack? Do we blame Michael and Dale Jr? > Do we blame Kenny Schrader? Do we blame Dale himself? No... > remember the three very similar deaths last year came not on high > banked tracks, nor plate tracks. > Racing killed Dale Earnhardt. > dave henrie

I didn't see him as blocking there at the end. About 2 (or was it 3?) laps before the final one, Marlin had tapped the back of his car due to the draft sucking him up to him. Dale had to slightly lift for just an instant. That was just enough, with these restrictors in place, to allow the field to come up & bunch up around him. It appeared that from Rusty on his rear spoiler it got his rear just loose enough he had incidental contact with Sterling which set off the chain of events. I still maintain that without restrictors the dogpack wouldn't have gotten up around him like it did to set off the final tragic chain of events. Are Rusty, Sterling, Kenny or Dale to blame? Hell no, not in the slightest. -- Fester Restrictor plate racing killed Dale Earnhardt.

Simon Brown wrote: > > That's all true, and indeed I would guess that every safety device can > actually be a hindrance under certain conditions, *but* you have to weigh > the benefits against the harm for each device, and if it will save more > lives than it takes, then in the long wrong it's better to have it. IMO, it's best to allow the individual who is putting his hide on the line to make his own decision, weighing risks against benefits. -- Fester Restrictor plate racing killed Dale Earnhardt.

I am just wondering, did Dale's car whip back to the right by itself , or was he trying to catch the spin?

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> > > Do we blame Michael and Dale Jr? > >Do we blame Kenny Schrader? > > I don't "blame" Kenny, but my hunch is that the final tip from the > presence of Kenny's car put Dale's car at a much higher angle of > attack to the wall and significantly increased the force of impact. I > think that single factor probably made all the difference. :( > > Also, someone you didn't mention is Sterling. I'm a Dale fan, but > to my eyes Sterling was holding his line and Dale came down into him > (either consciously or that's just the way the car went), starting it > all off. All of the harrassment that he's getting now over the > incident only makes a sad situation that much sadder. > > Also, I haven't had the heart to watch the replays enough, but what > did Dale's spotter say just before the crash? He had been saying > "three wide, car low", then there was something different, then Dale > moved down the track. Maybe we can "blame" the spotter too while > we're at it. :(

> > Also, someone you didn't mention is Sterling. Deliberately. That opens up several cans-of-worms that I don't think the population here wants to address. But I will say this...Sterling Marlin has received several death threats via the phone, email, and snail mail. This behaivor by 'fans' of Dale is sad. dave henrie

Dave Henrie wrote: > > But I will say this...Sterling Marlin has received several death > threats via the phone, email, and snail mail. This behaivor by > 'fans' of Dale is sad. I agree wholehartedly. It is totally unacceptable behaviour. IMHO. -- Fester Restrictor plate racing killed Dale Earnhardt.

Here's an interesting URL dug up by Scott B. Husted: http://ojr.usc.edu/content/story.cfm?request=540 quoting in part... "It turns out, however, that Earnhardt didn't die from a basilar skull fracture (although HANS demands are today running in every mainstream U.S. newspaper). Preliminary autopsy results released late Monday revealed that Earnhardt suffered a skull fracture which ran from the front to the back of his head -- not the base. Further eroding the HANS cause, there was no spinal damage, although the crash did break Earnhardt's sternum (previously broken in a crash in 1996), eight left ribs and his left ankle. "Rib, sternum and especially leg injuries are relatively common in motor sport; a host of veteran drivers walk with what is known as "Lola limp" after crashing British-made Lola race cars in the 1970s. But Earnhardt's skull fracture is puzzling; the autopsy reported "blunt trauma injury" to the back of the head. This isn't usually an injury caused by the skull whipping forward, as is basilar skull injury. It's caused by something hitting the rear of Earnhardt's crash helmet hard enough to break his skull. That's an enormous hit. " "But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark

Don't know where to find the autopsy report, sorry. A friend that does accident reconstruction did a frame-by-frame analysis of the broadcast video of Earnhardt's crash (he has special equipment for this type of analysis). He concluded that the velocity component into the wall at the time of crash was about 30 mph. I believe that there was a technical paper given on the HANS at the last SAE MotorSports Engineering Conference, this can be ordered from <http://www.sae.org>. -- Doug Douglas Milliken <[email hidden]> Milliken Research Associates Inc. On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Alison Hine wrote:

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> Where can we read the autopsy report? > > I haven't seen any definitive statements by the doctors who treated Dale > that the HANS device definitely wouldn't have saved him. The statements > I've seen were that "we don't know" or "the HANS device might not have > saved him". > > Alison >

>It would be complete speculation to say that he wouldn't have died if >he had worn a HANS device, but there's one thing that no one can >argue: He would NOT have died of what he did (the basal skull >fracture). Several posts seem to claim that it was not a basal skull fracture, but one that ran along the length of the skull. It was accompanied by 8 broken ribs and a collapsed lung. Again, this is based on a previous post here (which I forgot). - Alan Dale Earnhardt, 1951-2001: "The Last American Hero" R.I.P.

The HANS device wouldn't have helped. Even if the device had protected his brain, it wouldn't have done anything to protect his internal organs. The hit was just too hard. For those interested, here is a formula to determine the G force in a frontal impact. G's = .0333 x (MPH x MPH) / distance. MPH is the speed at the time of impact and distance is the stopping distance. CART medical staff have stated in the past that the highest survivable crash is around 90 G's. This is in a CART car that has more deformable structure that a Winston Cup car. It's unknown the exact numbers to use in the formula for Dale's crash, but by using rough estimates it's pretty obvious he surpassed the 90 G's by a good margin. Alison Hine wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

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>Where can we read the autopsy report? > >I haven't seen any definitive statements by the doctors who treated Dale >that the HANS device definitely wouldn't have saved him. The statements >I've seen were that "we don't know" or "the HANS device might not have >saved him". > >Alison > >On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 02:40:17 GMT, "Dog-Leg" <[email hidden]> wrote: > >>It has been said time and time again, a HANS device would not have saved >>him. The Dr's said so, and the Autopsy Report makes it pretty clear... >> >>It was bad luck, nothing more, nothing less... >> >>-Larry >> >>"Morgan V. Wooten" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >>news:7NWk6.242$[email hidden]... >>> You're new to racing apparently. Everyone is familiar with the HANS >>Device. >>> NASCAR doesn't mandate it, but it probably should. Dale was very >>old-school and >>> refused to use much of the modern safety equipment many other drivers

use.

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>>He >>> died because of it. And no, his life would not have been saved just >>because of a >>> HANS system. Ridiculous! :( >>> >>> -- >>> ------------------------------------- >>> Morgan Vincent Wooten >>> GPLRank: +10.02 >>> http://home.earthlink.net/~morganv00/ >>> ------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> "Incubus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >>> news:mkTk6.3080$[email hidden]... >>> > I just saw a news story about the race. In it, they were saying that >>there >>> > is this device called H.A.N.S. >>> > >>> > It stands for "Head And Neck Support". >>> > >>> > It's a device that the drivers wear around their shoulders, kind of

like >>a >>> > "U" shape device, which has an attachment at the back, for a shortstrap >>> > that goes directly to the back of the helmet. >>> > >>> > The way it works is that, it prevents the head from moving too far >>forward >>> > in a front-on crash. When such an accident happens, the neck muscleson

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>>a >>> > particular driver may be strong, but the problem occurs at the base of >>the >>> > skull where the breakage actually occurs. >>> > >>> > They also said that in Nascar, it's not compulsory, as it is in other >>auto >>> > sports. Only 4 or 5 drivers are currently using the device. They also >>said >>> > that the last 7 deaths that have occured, would have been prevented if >>the >>> > drivers were wearing this device. >>> > >>> > According to the story, Dale knew about the device and had seen the >>videos >>> > of crash tests, but he didn't want to use it. >>> > >>> > If you like, you can read more about it here: >>> > >>> > http://www.racingone.com/article.asp?artnum=4996 >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >> > > >Alison > >From: [email hidden] >Reply-To: [email hidden] >Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me. >http://eaglewoman.maximumspeed.net

Guys, the doctor did report he did not think the HANS device would have helped him. I would venture to guess reason being is the internal injuries were vast and well the head trauma might have been the greatest. The HANS device is a very good safety item. there are just some iccidents where nothing is going to help you. Dave Incubus <[email hidden]> wrote in article <24al6.3560$[email hidden]>...

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> Yes...thats what I saw too...that they can't say for sure. > > > "Alison Hine" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Where can we read the autopsy report? > > > > I haven't seen any definitive statements by the doctors who treated

Dale > > that the HANS device definitely wouldn't have saved him. Thestatements

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> > I've seen were that "we don't know" or "the HANS device might not have > > saved him". > > > > Alison > > > > On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 02:40:17 GMT, "Dog-Leg" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >It has been said time and time again, a HANS device would not have

saved > > >him. The Dr's said so, and the Autopsy Report makes it prettyclear...

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> > > > > >It was bad luck, nothing more, nothing less... > > > > > >-Larry > > > > > >"Morgan V. Wooten" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > >news:7NWk6.242$[email hidden]... > > >> You're new to racing apparently. Everyone is familiar with the HANS > > >Device. > > >> NASCAR doesn't mandate it, but it probably should. Dale was very > > >old-school and > > >> refused to use much of the modern safety equipment many other

drivers

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> use. > > >He > > >> died because of it. And no, his life would not have been saved just > > >because of a > > >> HANS system. Ridiculous! :( > > >> > > >> -- > > >> ------------------------------------- > > >> Morgan Vincent Wooten > > >> GPLRank: +10.02 > > >> http://home.earthlink.net/~morganv00/ > > >> ------------------------------------- > > >> > > >> > > >> "Incubus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > >> news:mkTk6.3080$[email hidden]... > > >> > I just saw a news story about the race. In it, they were saying

that > > >there > > >> > is this device called H.A.N.S. > > >> > > > >> > It stands for "Head And Neck Support". > > >> > > > >> > It's a device that the drivers wear around their shoulders, kindof

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> like > > >a > > >> > "U" shape device, which has an attachment at the back, for a short > strap > > >> > that goes directly to the back of the helmet. > > >> > > > >> > The way it works is that, it prevents the head from moving too far > > >forward > > >> > in a front-on crash. When such an accident happens, the neck

muscles > on > > >a > > >> > particular driver may be strong, but the problem occurs at thebase > of > > >the > > >> > skull where the breakage actually occurs. > > >> > > > >> > They also said that in Nascar, it's not compulsory, as it is inother > > >auto > > >> > sports. Only 4 or 5 drivers are currently using the device. Theyalso > > >said > > >> > that the last 7 deaths that have occured, would have beenprevented > if > > >the > > >> > drivers were wearing this device. > > >> > > > >> > According to the story, Dale knew about the device and had seenthe

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> > >videos > > >> > of crash tests, but he didn't want to use it. > > >> > > > >> > If you like, you can read more about it here: > > >> > > > >> > http://www.racingone.com/article.asp?artnum=4996 > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > Alison > > > > From: [email hidden] > > Reply-To: [email hidden] > > Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me. > > http://eaglewoman.maximumspeed.net > > >

That's a "yes" then, you would like to see every piece of safety equipment become optional, and many more driver deaths. "Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > Well, I can't state it nearly as well as Joe62 did in the thread "NASCAR > should be shut down", so I'll just quote him here. > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >You knew it was going to happen, and so did I. > > So did the drivers in the race. Who the hell are you to tell them what > risks they should be allowed to take? > > Joe McGinn" > > The actual context of his quote may not apply, but IMHO the thought > itself does. Given most human's safety-conciousness, the bulk of the > equipment would be worn voluntarily as it is. When it's not my life to > save or lose, who the hell am I to dictate what *must* be worn? > > Cheers > > -- > > Fester > > Restrictor plate racing killed Dale Earnhardt.

I don't think we're gonna agree on this one :) "Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > Simon Brown wrote: > > > > That's all true, and indeed I would guess that every safety device can > > actually be a hindrance under certain conditions, *but* you have toweigh

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> > the benefits against the harm for each device, and if it will save more > > lives than it takes, then in the long run it's better to have it. > > > IMO, it's best to allow the individual who is putting his hide on the > line to make his own decision, weighing risks against benefits. > > -- > > Fester > > Restrictor plate racing killed Dale Earnhardt.

Simon Brown wrote: > > That's a "yes" then, you would like to see every piece of safety equipment > become optional, and many more driver deaths. No sir, that's an inaccurate paraphrase. What I said was that drivers shouldn't be forced into wearing apparatuses (boy, I killed that word!) that they themselves don't feel secure with. The vast majority of equipment would be worn anyway as a matter of course. They just don't need to be dictated to is all. -- Fester > > "Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > Well, I can't state it nearly as well as Joe62 did in the thread "NASCAR > > should be shut down", so I'll just quote him here. > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >You knew it was going to happen, and so did I. > > > > So did the drivers in the race. Who the hell are you to tell them what > > risks they should be allowed to take? > > > > Joe McGinn" > > > > The actual context of his quote may not apply, but IMHO the thought > > itself does. Given most human's safety-conciousness, the bulk of the > > equipment would be worn voluntarily as it is. When it's not my life to > > save or lose, who the hell am I to dictate what *must* be worn? > > > > Cheers > > > > -- > > > > Fester > > > > Restrictor plate racing killed Dale Earnhardt.

Simon Brown wrote: > > I don't think we're gonna agree on this one :) LOL!! Possibly. One last try though. ;-) Don't *you* think the drivers will do everything reasonable in their eyes to save their own backside without being dictated too? I think these regulations do more to make the rest of us feel like we're contributing to their safety. Kinda removes the collective guilt from our shoulders when/if something goes wrong. -- Fester > > "Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > Simon Brown wrote: > > > > > > That's all true, and indeed I would guess that every safety device can > > > actually be a hindrance under certain conditions, *but* you have to > weigh > > > the benefits against the harm for each device, and if it will save more > > > lives than it takes, then in the long run it's better to have it. > > > > > > IMO, it's best to allow the individual who is putting his hide on the > > line to make his own decision, weighing risks against benefits. > > > > -- > > > > Fester > > > > Restrictor plate racing killed Dale Earnhardt.

If you notice, he had Rusty under his rear spoiler, Sterling coming to the inside, Schrader on the outside. Some will say that Dale was blocking, others that Rusty took the air off his spoiler, some have suggested that Sterling tagged him. Anyway, the car veered to the left and got the left sides on the apron. I'll say he realized it and tried to save it. Keeping his foot down he tries to bring it back on the race track and salvage his 3rd place position. Smart racers would have turned it left, lifted, and spun it. Those smart racers wouldn't have his talent nor his 7 Cups nor 76 points wins. The day prior he saved one that was unsavable, why wouldn't he save this one as well? The car came back and, if you've raced enough (real or sim), you know what snap oversteer is like. Those (relatively) supersoft lefts side gripped as advertise. At this point, it is unsavable. Up he goes. The collision is sever. NASCAR doesn't go in for accelerometers, so the exact force produced isn't precise. I've heard 200+ g's. The car's hood sheers the pins, but doesn't fly off - the hood teathers don't allow it and I'm not sure they came in to play. The front end crumples. Up to a point. Some of the force is absorbed by the car. Not enough though. Much of the force goes into the body. This test the integrity of the restraining harness. For the first time in 52 years the webbing fails. The remaining force is still there and must be absorbed, and the driver is the final place for it to go. As released today, the trademark open faced helmet comes into play as the left side lapbelt fails. Not unbuckles. Not frays. The mount doesn't give. The webbing snaps. 52 years of NASCAR and this is the first failure of the type. Dale's body shifts to the right and forward. His face was susceptible to, and recieved severe damage. Little wonder Schrader was quick to turn and wave paramedics to the sceene. They couldn't know it, but it was futile. Back to the advertised topic, had the belt kept him in place, a basal skull fracture would still have been a distinct possiblity. HANS may need development, but it also needs a greater audience to work with it. After this, though, I think we'll soon see a few more drivers in full face helmets. Junior I hope at least, maybe Spencer (although he's as stubborn as the Bulldog his home town embraces - Go Dawgs!!!). Trickle might although he has a practical reason not to, he also has a very persuasive reason to give up the open face (giving up smoking might be too much to ask for). I'm hoping for a decade (at least) until the next fatality. If I have to wait longer, I'll not mind it one bit. drinklime wrote:

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> I am just wondering, did Dale's car whip back to the right by itself , or > was he trying to catch the spin? > > > > > > Do we blame Michael and Dale Jr? > > >Do we blame Kenny Schrader? > > > > I don't "blame" Kenny, but my hunch is that the final tip from the > > presence of Kenny's car put Dale's car at a much higher angle of > > attack to the wall and significantly increased the force of impact. I > > think that single factor probably made all the difference. :( > > > > Also, someone you didn't mention is Sterling. I'm a Dale fan, but > > to my eyes Sterling was holding his line and Dale came down into him > > (either consciously or that's just the way the car went), starting it > > all off. All of the harrassment that he's getting now over the > > incident only makes a sad situation that much sadder. > > > > Also, I haven't had the heart to watch the replays enough, but what > > did Dale's spotter say just before the crash? He had been saying > > "three wide, car low", then there was something different, then Dale > > moved down the track. Maybe we can "blame" the spotter too while > > we're at it. :(

Given that most of these guys have families they're being pretty irresponsible if they don't use every piece of safety equipment available. On using safety devices, I think that once the drivers get into certain habits, they stick with them, particularly the older drivers. The fact is though, that Nascar make the rules, and if Nascar say HANS and full helmets are mandatory, then the drivers would all use them. It's supposed to be motor-sport, not a blood bath. Maybe if there were three deaths per year for the next five years running you'd all change your minds. "Uncle Fester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Simon Brown wrote: > > > > I don't think we're gonna agree on this one :) > > > LOL!! Possibly. One last try though. ;-) Don't *you* think the > drivers will do everything reasonable in their eyes to save their own > backside without being dictated too? I think these regulations do more > to make the rest of us feel like we're contributing to their safety. > Kinda removes the collective guilt from our shoulders when/if something > goes wrong. > > -- > > Fester

Uncle Fester wrote:

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> Simon Brown wrote: > > > > That's a "yes" then, you would like to see every piece of safety equipment > > become optional, and many more driver deaths. > > No sir, that's an inaccurate paraphrase. What I said was that drivers > shouldn't be forced into wearing apparatuses (boy, I killed that word!) > that they themselves don't feel secure with. The vast majority of > equipment would be worn anyway as a matter of course. They just don't > need to be dictated to is all.

Um, there was a day when convincing a driver to wear a helmet was damn hard. Getting them into coveralls was (once) pushing it - they preferred the T-shirts as a matter of comfort. Joey Weatherly got the safety nets installed and helmets became very popular after a couple of drivers got the 'red asphalt' treatment. Glen Roberts made fireproofing coveralls and fuel cells popular. It took a number of rollovers to get rollbars in and quite a while to get the modern roll cage developed. Safety effort in NASCAR has always lagged behind safety needs. CART and F1 have had that one area which they tend to shine. Although sometimes F1 departs into 'overkill' mode. Probably because of having to deal with so many legal systems.

Safety effort in NASCAR has always lagged behind > safety needs. CART and F1 have had that one area which they tend toshine. > Although sometimes F1 departs into 'overkill' mode. Probably because ofhaving > to deal with so many legal systems. > Well F1 during the 60s and 70s was killing drivers a lot. One F1 World Champion never lived to see himself win the championship. Champ cars as they were called back then were just as bad. Heck the roll bars did not even get above the drivers head during the 60s in either F1 or Champ cars. The Dirt Champ cars did not have full cages like Current Sprint cars. Mario Andretti even mentioned at the beginning of the year you looked around at all the drivers and wondered who was going to be around at the end of the season. During this time well Stock cars had full cages with door bars as they do today. Even during the middle 70s F1 hads problems. Just take one real good look at Niki Lauda and well you will see the marks left behind from a crash at the dangerous Ring. Nascar may be at a point where the corner speeds are just too fast for the tracks they run right now. CART has the same problem currently, and well look at what F1 has done to the race tracks it runs on. also remember the CART drivers who have died in the last few years starting with Jeff Krosnoff. IT might be time for NASCAR to look hard at its tracks and its speed of the cars like F1 and CART have had to do. Dave

> > I am just wondering, did Dale's car whip back to the right by itself ,or > > was he trying to catch the spin? I was very suprised he tried to save it actaully, but being from the same town as Gordon Smiley its been kinda drummed into my head you never ever turn right at all on an oval. Gordon's Indy car did the same thing many years ago at Indy. The result was the same. The cars rear tires gripped and he turned straight into the wall. Dave

On Sat, 24 Feb 2001 05:44:19 GMT, Mike Donnelly Jr <[email hidden]> wrote: >Safety effort in NASCAR has always lagged behind >safety needs. CART and F1 have had that one area which they tend to shine. I think the higher safety consciousness due to a driver (or fan) fatality or near-fatality (ie: reactive vs. proactive safety measures) is true in all series, it's just human nature. You can find many hypothetical safety problems, but until the results are right in front of you, you don't fully comprehend the consequences. Think of wheel tethers (Charlotte and Michigan fans) or soft barriers (Blundell in Rio) in CART, chicanes (Senna) and greater head protection (Senna/Wendlinger) in F1, throttle cutoffs (A. Petty and Irwin) in NASCAR. Just the same way your local dangerous intersection doesn't get a traffic light until one or two people die there. Human nature. :| "But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark

David wrote:

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> Safety effort in NASCAR has always lagged behind > > safety needs. CART and F1 have had that one area which they tend to > shine. > > Although sometimes F1 departs into 'overkill' mode. Probably because of > having > > to deal with so many legal systems. > > > > Well F1 during the 60s and 70s was killing drivers a lot. One F1 World > Champion never lived to see himself win the championship. Champ cars as > they were called back then were just as bad. Heck the roll bars did not > even get above the drivers head during the 60s in either F1 or Champ cars. > The Dirt Champ cars did not have full cages like Current Sprint cars. Mario > Andretti even mentioned at the beginning of the year you looked around at > all the drivers and wondered who was going to be around at the end of the > season. During this time well Stock cars had full cages with door bars as > they do today. Even during the middle 70s F1 hads problems. Just take one > real good look at Niki Lauda and well you will see the marks left behind > from a crash at the dangerous Ring.

Point taken. Okay, there *WAS* a time that NASCAR was a leader in safety. That time passed long ago. Probably in the late 60s to early 70s. I think a quote from Eddie Murphy on an unrelated subject is appropriate: "What have you done for me lately?" NASCAR has had warnings that there was trouble in paradise - Bodine's wreck. They've seen the trouble, Adam and Kenny. They were given a reprieve to correct things, then when they failed to, they got another dose. Question is, how late is too late? Next question is who is looking into the safety question and what are they looking at? I'd be willing to be the NSA (CIA isn't permitted to operate in the US) couldn't find out from NASCAR. > Nascar may be at a point where the corner speeds are just too fast for the > tracks they run right now. CART has the same problem currently, and well > look at what F1 has done to the race tracks it runs on. I'd say that it is a distinct possiblity that the next evolutionary step needs to be taken. Possibly smaller carbs, smaller formula. As to what F1 has done to their tracks, I'd rather not go there. They've destroyed a lot of tracks with chicanes and made parades out of races. I don't think NASCAR wants to consider going down that road. Besides, that's impossible to do with an oval anyhow, and if I want to see 'stock' cars road racing, there was the Trans-Am series. > also remember the CART drivers who have died in the last few years starting > with Jeff Krosnoff. I remember Jeff very well. Jeff Krosnoff, Greg Moore, Scott Brayton, Adam Petty, Kenny Irwin, Tony Roper. I know I've had to forget a few. Neil Bonnet happened before I really got into racing - the first NASCAR race I really sat down to watch was the spring Rockingham race in '95. I've never watched him run, but with Dale talking about him often, you felt his impact on the sport seemingly each year. > IT might be time for NASCAR to look hard at its tracks and its speed of the > cars like F1 and CART have had to do. I think starting with the tracks and then going into the driver's space will be the next great advancements in safety. It may be time to consider bringing NASCAR in to the world class arena and have it's own traveling medical staff. Not that it would have helped Dale, but it's about time.

Jeff Vincent wrote:

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> On Sat, 24 Feb 2001 05:44:19 GMT, Mike Donnelly Jr > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Safety effort in NASCAR has always lagged behind > >safety needs. CART and F1 have had that one area which they tend to shine. > > I think the higher safety consciousness due to a driver (or fan) > fatality or near-fatality (ie: reactive vs. proactive safety measures) > is true in all series, it's just human nature. You can find many > hypothetical safety problems, but until the results are right in front > of you, you don't fully comprehend the consequences. > > Think of wheel tethers (Charlotte and Michigan fans) or soft > barriers (Blundell in Rio) in CART, chicanes (Senna) and greater head > protection (Senna/Wendlinger) in F1, throttle cutoffs (A. Petty and > Irwin) in NASCAR.

Chicanes are not a safety feature. I've seen them cause more wrecks then they could ever prevent. Throttle cutoffs was the proverbial 'knee-jerk' reaction that NASCAR claims it wants to avoid. Asking the drivers, it's rather useless. I'd say the first really usefull safety item that came about as a proactive measure (sort of) was the roof-flaps in NASCAR. Even then, it was a problem that NASCAR had encountered and 'fixed' by adding the restrictor plate. Now that speeds were coming up, they added the roof flaps to prevent cars from flying into the grandstands. NASCAR hasn't ever been pro-active. Initiative is something that is left to individual crew chiefs. Once they cross over and start carrying a NASCAR badge, it goes out the window seemingly. > Just the same way your local dangerous intersection doesn't get a > traffic light until one or two people die there. Human nature. :| Question is, how many drivers have to die before NASCAR clues into the idea that something is wrong?

In article <01c09e03$2da432c0$fbd2fc3f@packardbell>, "David" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>> > I am just wondering, did Dale's car whip back to the right by itself , >or >> > was he trying to catch the spin? > >I was very suprised he tried to save it actaully, but being from the same >town as Gordon Smiley its been kinda drummed into my head you never ever >turn right at all on an oval. Gordon's Indy car did the same thing many >years ago at Indy. The result was the same. The cars rear tires gripped >and he turned straight into the wall. >

I think it's just instinct to steer into the skid. I know *I've* done it in sims...although with the same results. Haven't you? Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL F1 hcp. +28.67...F2 +151.26...F3 hcp. +373.73 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

> I think it's just instinct to steer into the skid. I know *I've* done itin > sims...although with the same results. Haven't you? > > Eldred > -- Well yes I have, but I will say sims are vastly different the real life. Even the little bit of Autocrossing I do beat the heck out of running GPL, N3 or any other game. I watched the Indy 500 last year just waiting for Montoya to end up in the wall. Lap after lap I watched the rear end of his car twitch in turn one, infact more then guys who ended up in the wall. Juan did catch it every lap and it was amazing. At Daytona the one thing I remember distinctly was why is he turning the wheel to the right. There was no tire smoke at all so the car was really hooked up when it turned right. I guess it did really show the world Dale was like everyone in the world human. a Great Racer, but human none the less and well humans make mistakes. dave

In article <01c09f80$2a46fee0$cfd2fc3f@packardbell>, "David" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>> I think it's just instinct to steer into the skid. I know *I've* done it >in >> sims...although with the same results. Haven't you? >> >> Eldred >> -- > >Well yes I have, but I will say sims are vastly different the real life. >Even the little bit of Autocrossing I do beat the heck out of running GPL, >N3 or any other game. >

I know(or imagine), and I'm jealous!<g> But what I'm saying is when you learn to drive, you learn to steer into the skid. I even had to do it(once or twice<g>) at Laguna Seca last year. I've never driven on an oval, though. I'm not so sure it's an easy habit to break... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL F1 hcp. +28.67...F2 +151.26...F3 hcp. +373.73 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

It's one of the things that they teach you in recovering from a spin. I'd imagine if you look at Dale's front wheels when he hits the wall they're cranked all the way to the left as he's trying to save the over-correction that was the result of getting off the apron. I *have* recovered from some loose conditions by turning into the spin. But, only if you do it very early. For the most part, I have yet to catch a N4 Dodge... Haven't tried any other cars, but I suspect it's much the same. EldredP wrote:

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> In article <01c09e03$2da432c0$fbd2fc3f@packardbell>, "David" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >> > I am just wondering, did Dale's car whip back to the right by itself , > >or > >> > was he trying to catch the spin? > > > >I was very suprised he tried to save it actaully, but being from the same > >town as Gordon Smiley its been kinda drummed into my head you never ever > >turn right at all on an oval. Gordon's Indy car did the same thing many > >years ago at Indy. The result was the same. The cars rear tires gripped > >and he turned straight into the wall. > > > > I think it's just instinct to steer into the skid. I know *I've* done it in > sims...although with the same results. Haven't you? > > Eldred > -- > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. 1951-2001 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPL F1 hcp. +28.67...F2 +151.26...F3 hcp. +373.73 > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Mike Donnelly Jr <[email hidden]> wrote in article <[email hidden]>... > It's one of the things that they teach you in recovering from a spin. I'd > imagine if you look at Dale's front wheels when he hits the wall they'recranked > all the way to the left as he's trying to save the over-correction thatwas the > result of getting off the apron. > I understand that and well its also very well known you do not turn right on an oval. Reason being was viewed very graphically at Daytona. I am not talking about road racing or road driving, but oval racing. And not in a Sim either. > I *have* recovered from some loose conditions by turning into the spin. But, > only if you do it very early. For the most part, I have yet to catch aN4 > Dodge... Haven't tried any other cars, but I suspect it's much the same. > In a game or in real life on a high speed oval. there is a big difference. The game cannot model everything. Dave