proposed solution to pull to left

I think it would be a good idea for Papy to code the sim so that on the straights, the wheel does not pull to left. But upon entering a turn, the pull comes into play. This, in my opinion, would be easy to implement and would solve the problem. Brian

Yeah, but then you're taking the "sim" out of simulation. This is the way real stock cars react when setup properly on such speedways as Daytona, Talledega, etc. If you don't like it then adjust your camber (I beleive this is the setting) so as to correct the suspension settings that are causing this so called "problem". Be aware that drivers that can adjust to this setup will be quicker around the track than you. best of luck edb Brian Carabee <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:E%Sk6.636$[email hidden]...

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> I think it would be a good idea for Papy to code the sim so that on the > straights, the wheel does not pull to left. But upon entering a turn, the > pull comes into play. This, in my opinion, would be easy to implement and > would solve the problem. > > Brian > >

No matter how you slice it, we are only driving a sim and therefore we are at an extreme disadvantage in terms of control and situational awareness. The sense of "feel" and balance, along with peripheral vision is missing in a sim, and in my opinion, to be realistic, these missing factors must be compensated for. Any pilot will tell you that if a real plane were actually as hard to land as a flight sim plane, they wouldn't fly. The same goes for our hobby. If we crashed in real life as much as we do in N4, then this newsgroup would be small indeed! Adjusting the camber to eliminate the pull is not a viable solution, for as you mentioned, performance will suffer. The fact is that modern day wheels do not give us the same degree of fine control we would have in a real car; hence the need to compensate somehow for the left pull. Maybe a FF wheel handles it better, but that too is a cheat because I understand that a FF wheel does not try to return to center. Brian "EDB" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:rwTk6.348$[email hidden]... > Yeah, but then you're taking the "sim" out of simulation. This is the way > real stock cars react when setup properly on such speedways as Daytona, > Talledega, etc. If you don't like it then adjust your camber (I beleivethis

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> is the setting) so as to correct the suspension settings that are causing > this so called "problem". Be aware that drivers that can adjust to this > setup will be quicker around the track than you. > > best of luck > > edb > > > Brian Carabee <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:E%Sk6.636$[email hidden]... > > I think it would be a good idea for Papy to code the sim so that on the > > straights, the wheel does not pull to left. But upon entering a turn,

the > > pull comes into play. This, in my opinion, would be easy to implementand

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> > would solve the problem. > > > > Brian > > > > > >

I use a LWFF wheel and the sensation is pretty much like a real car with that setup in it would feel. I agree, until someone can put "seat of the pants" feel into any sim, it will be lacking. My argument is that this is just the way the game should be if it is going to be a "sim". I know a lot of guys are struggling with this issue, but we demanded a more realistic sim and Papy delivered, now they're taking the heat for it. We got exactly what we wanted and I just don't understand all the complaining. I've been running it a few hours a day since I got my first copy Saturday (bought 2 since for remote dedicated server use) and to be honest, I am already beyond the "pull" issue and after firing up N3 last night for a while, like N4 a ton better. I look at it this way, since this realease and its tunability that has created this "pull", the likelyhood of racing against guys playing with keyboards has gone to nill. ;) Lets agree to disagree, I think the latest NR will be great when all the real bugs are squashed, and most people will end up understanding that the "pull" is a desriable characteristic. Best of luck to you, edb PS: Just don't race at the big tracks right off and you won't have the trouble, the fast setups for say Bristol, Phoenix, road courses, etc don't have the "pull" in them. Want to learn how to "ease" into dealing with it, run the fast setups at Charlotte (its Lowes, I know, but its one of my home state tracks, old habits ya know) and/or Texas. These are less severe and could help you understand how to "compensate" for it better. Brian Carabee <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:s4Vk6.663$[email hidden]... > No matter how you slice it, we are only driving a sim and therefore we are > at an extreme disadvantage in terms of control and situational awareness. > The sense of "feel" and balance, along with peripheral vision is missingin > a sim, and in my opinion, to be realistic, these missing factors must be > compensated for. > > Any pilot will tell you that if a real plane were actually as hard to land > as a flight sim plane, they wouldn't fly. The same goes for our hobby. Ifwe > crashed in real life as much as we do in N4, then this newsgroup would be > small indeed! > > Adjusting the camber to eliminate the pull is not a viable solution, foras > you mentioned, performance will suffer. The fact is that modern day wheels > do not give us the same degree of fine control we would have in a realcar;

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> hence the need to compensate somehow for the left pull. Maybe a FF wheel > handles it better, but that too is a cheat because I understand that a FF > wheel does not try to return to center. > > Brian > > "EDB" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:rwTk6.348$[email hidden]... > > Yeah, but then you're taking the "sim" out of simulation. This is the

way > > real stock cars react when setup properly on such speedways as Daytona, > > Talledega, etc. If you don't like it then adjust your camber (I beleive > this > > is the setting) so as to correct the suspension settings that arecausing

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> > this so called "problem". Be aware that drivers that can adjust to this > > setup will be quicker around the track than you. > > > > best of luck > > > > edb > > > > > > Brian Carabee <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:E%Sk6.636$[email hidden]... > > > I think it would be a good idea for Papy to code the sim so that on

the

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> > > straights, the wheel does not pull to left. But upon entering a turn, > the > > > pull comes into play. This, in my opinion, would be easy to implement > and > > > would solve the problem. > > > > > > Brian > > > > > > > > > > > >

I found that, for me, the more linear one adjusts ones steering the easier it is to deal with the pull to the left. When I started driving the sim (leaving linearity at the default setting) I had a very difficult time adjusting. Now I have adjusted the linearity to nearly full linear and the pull is no longer objectionable to me and feels "real". Force feedback effects improved greatly also. Just my two cents worth.

There's no problem in the first place. Just recalibrate your wheel to take advantage of the left-ward pull and get used to it. It's working great for me. -- ------------------------------------- Morgan Vincent Wooten GPLRank: +10.02 http://home.earthlink.net/~morganv00/ ------------------------------------- "Brian Carabee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:E%Sk6.636$[email hidden]... > I think it would be a good idea for Papy to code the sim so that on the > straights, the wheel does not pull to left. But upon entering a turn, the > pull comes into play. This, in my opinion, would be easy to implement and > would solve the problem. > > Brian > > >

I'm not complaining - I think it's fine that the camber pull is there. I'm just suggesting that it would be a good idea to look into compensating for the fact that driving a sim is in fact much more difficult than driving an actual car. In view of that fact, I feel the sim becomes unrealistic if it mimics real-life physics exactly. Again I cite FOV, peripheral vision, lack of feel (inertia), and the fairly in-exact nature of our control devices. I think it would be great to be able to choose whether the car pulls left in the straights or not, for those of us who have older, less precise wheels. But I understand the purists' point of view too. Although I'm sure some did not like this in Nascar 3, I thought the "side-view" section of the rear-view mirror was an effective way to overcome the peripheral vision issue. Someone mentioned to me that you can get that in N4, but all I see is detail level settings and toggling the inside cage. Not to be argumentative - just tossing around some ideas that might help to overcome sim limitations. Brian "EDB" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:FqWk6.836$[email hidden]...

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> I use a LWFF wheel and the sensation is pretty much like a real car with > that setup in it would feel. I agree, until someone can put "seat of the > pants" feel into any sim, it will be lacking. > > My argument is that this is just the way the game should be if it is going > to be a "sim". I know a lot of guys are struggling with this issue, but we > demanded a more realistic sim and Papy delivered, now they're taking the > heat for it. We got exactly what we wanted and I just don't understand all > the complaining. > > I've been running it a few hours a day since I got my first copy Saturday > (bought 2 since for remote dedicated server use) and to be honest, I am > already beyond the "pull" issue and after firing up N3 last night for a > while, like N4 a ton better. > > I look at it this way, since this realease and its tunability that has > created this "pull", the likelyhood of racing against guys playing with > keyboards has gone to nill. ;) > > Lets agree to disagree, I think the latest NR will be great when all the > real bugs are squashed, and most people will end up understanding that the > "pull" is a desriable characteristic. > > > Best of luck to you, > > edb > > PS: Just don't race at the big tracks right off and you won't have the > trouble, the fast setups for say Bristol, Phoenix, road courses, etc don't > have the "pull" in them. Want to learn how to "ease" into dealing with it, > run the fast setups at Charlotte (its Lowes, I know, but its one of my

home

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> state tracks, old habits ya know) and/or Texas. These are less severe and > could help you understand how to "compensate" for it better. > > > Brian Carabee <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:s4Vk6.663$[email hidden]... > > No matter how you slice it, we are only driving a sim and therefore we

are > > at an extreme disadvantage in terms of control and situationalawareness. > > The sense of "feel" and balance, along with peripheral vision is missing > in > > a sim, and in my opinion, to be realistic, these missing factors must be > > compensated for. > > > > Any pilot will tell you that if a real plane were actually as hard toland > > as a flight sim plane, they wouldn't fly. The same goes for our hobby.If > we > > crashed in real life as much as we do in N4, then this newsgroup wouldbe > > small indeed! > > > > Adjusting the camber to eliminate the pull is not a viable solution, for > as > > you mentioned, performance will suffer. The fact is that modern daywheels > > do not give us the same degree of fine control we would have in a real > car; > > hence the need to compensate somehow for the left pull. Maybe a FF wheel > > handles it better, but that too is a cheat because I understand that aFF

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> > wheel does not try to return to center. > > > > Brian > > > > "EDB" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:rwTk6.348$[email hidden]... > > > Yeah, but then you're taking the "sim" out of simulation. This is the > way > > > real stock cars react when setup properly on such speedways as

Daytona, > > > Talledega, etc. If you don't like it then adjust your camber (Ibeleive > > this > > > is the setting) so as to correct the suspension settings that are > causing > > > this so called "problem". Be aware that drivers that can adjust tothis

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> > > setup will be quicker around the track than you. > > > > > > best of luck > > > > > > edb > > > > > > > > > Brian Carabee <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:E%Sk6.636$[email hidden]... > > > > I think it would be a good idea for Papy to code the sim so that on > the > > > > straights, the wheel does not pull to left. But upon entering a

turn, > > the > > > > pull comes into play. This, in my opinion, would be easy toimplement

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> > and > > > > would solve the problem. > > > > > > > > Brian > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

here is the technical problem your solution creates. just where do you enable this sudden leftward pull. If I line up 100 drivers at Charlotte and trace thier laps...I'd probably come up with 97 completely different lines, turn in points, angles, etc. What might be the perfect place for one user would be 10 yards too late for another or 10 yards too soon. The easiest and best solution for the N4 pull is N3. dave henrie "Brian Carabee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:E%Sk6.636$[email hidden]...

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> I think it would be a good idea for Papy to code the sim so that on the > straights, the wheel does not pull to left. But upon entering a turn, the > pull comes into play. This, in my opinion, would be easy to implement and > would solve the problem. > > Brian > >

We've covered this before. Not EVERYTHING real transfers to a Sim well. This is one of them. You are only taking into your experience with your controller. You take a FF wheel and disable FF (so it uses centering) or use a non FF wheel and you will understand why some find this an issue. -Larry "EDB" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:rwTk6.348$[email hidden]... > Yeah, but then you're taking the "sim" out of simulation. This is the way > real stock cars react when setup properly on such speedways as Daytona, > Talledega, etc. If you don't like it then adjust your camber (I beleivethis

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> is the setting) so as to correct the suspension settings that are causing > this so called "problem". Be aware that drivers that can adjust to this > setup will be quicker around the track than you. > > best of luck > > edb > > > Brian Carabee <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:E%Sk6.636$[email hidden]... > > I think it would be a good idea for Papy to code the sim so that on the > > straights, the wheel does not pull to left. But upon entering a turn,

the > > pull comes into play. This, in my opinion, would be easy to implementand

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> > would solve the problem. > > > > Brian > > > > > >

This is a shakey operation at best... Not all tracks are the same, and your method (fudge-calibration ?) can't possibly work at all tracks the same way. -Larry "Morgan V. Wooten" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:CJWk6.228$[email hidden]... > There's no problem in the first place. Just recalibrate your wheel to take > advantage of the left-ward pull and get used to it. It's working great forme.

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> > -- > ------------------------------------- > Morgan Vincent Wooten > GPLRank: +10.02 > http://home.earthlink.net/~morganv00/ > ------------------------------------- > > > "Brian Carabee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:E%Sk6.636$[email hidden]... > > I think it would be a good idea for Papy to code the sim so that on the > > straights, the wheel does not pull to left. But upon entering a turn,

the > > pull comes into play. This, in my opinion, would be easy to implementand

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> > would solve the problem. > > > > Brian > > > > > > > >

I thought maybe have the pull gradually fade in on approach. Admittedly, it's not an ideal solution. I suppose the best solution is for me to get rid of my TM T2 and get a more modern wheel. Brian "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:GXXk6.453878$[email hidden]...

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> here is the technical problem your solution creates. > just where do you enable this sudden leftward pull. If I line up 100 > drivers at > Charlotte and trace thier laps...I'd probably come up with 97 completely > different lines, turn in points, angles, etc. What might be the perfect > place for > one user would be 10 yards too late for another or 10 yards too soon. > The easiest and best solution for the N4 pull is N3. > dave henrie > "Brian Carabee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:E%Sk6.636$[email hidden]... > > I think it would be a good idea for Papy to code the sim so that on the > > straights, the wheel does not pull to left. But upon entering a turn,

the > > pull comes into play. This, in my opinion, would be easy to implementand > > would solve the problem. > > > > Brian > > > > >

Of course it doesn't work the same way at all tracks. You have to recalibrate, the same thing real drivers do when they arrive at the next track. It's all part of the setup. -- ------------------------------------- Morgan Vincent Wooten GPLRank: +10.02 http://home.earthlink.net/~morganv00/ ------------------------------------- "Dog-Leg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:_0%k6.2348$[email hidden]... > This is a shakey operation at best... > > Not all tracks are the same, and your method (fudge-calibration ?) can't > possibly work at all tracks the same way. > > -Larry > > "Morgan V. Wooten" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:CJWk6.228$[email hidden]... > > There's no problem in the first place. Just recalibrate your wheel to take > > advantage of the left-ward pull and get used to it. It's working great for > me. > > > > -- > > ------------------------------------- > > Morgan Vincent Wooten > > GPLRank: +10.02 > > http://home.earthlink.net/~morganv00/ > > ------------------------------------- > > > > > > "Brian Carabee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:E%Sk6.636$[email hidden]... > > > I think it would be a good idea for Papy to code the sim so that on the > > > straights, the wheel does not pull to left. But upon entering a turn, > the > > > pull comes into play. This, in my opinion, would be easy to implement > and > > > would solve the problem. > > > > > > Brian > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

"Brian Carabee" <[email hidden]> writes: Maybe a FF wheel > handles it better, but that too is a cheat because I understand that a FF > wheel does not try to return to center. FF a cheat ? That's a new one. The great thing about Papy FF is that the wheel tells what the front wheels are doing, and when going down the straights the wheel feels centered, even if it's not. So IMHO a FF is the best and most realistic solution to what some people call a problem, but is nothing else than a feature missing from older sims :) -- Olav K. Malmin remove .spam when replying

Except that the FF wheels are working the wrong way in N4, they should drive with the wheel straight (as though it had been compensated for the pull) but with the force still pulling to the left. As it is, the wheel is held to the right, but without any force acting on it. -- Ian P <email invalid due to spam> Olav K. Malmin <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > "Brian Carabee" <[email hidden]> writes: > > Maybe a FF wheel > > handles it better, but that too is a cheat because I understand that a FF > > wheel does not try to return to center. > > FF a cheat ? That's a new one. The great thing about Papy FF is that > the wheel tells what the front wheels are doing, and when going down > the straights the wheel feels centered, even if it's not. So IMHO a FF > is the best and most realistic solution to what some people call a > problem, but is nothing else than a feature missing from older sims :) > > -- > Olav K. Malmin > remove .spam when replying

Which is the LWFF again? I know the FF is force feedback, but what is LW? My problem with the T2 is that no matter how I set linearity and steering ratio, I get over-steering when trying to compensate for the left pull. The pot seems to be good as there is little jumping on the calibration screen. Oh well, the pull to left can be gotten used to, and ultimately I think it's a good thing. What I can't get used to is the stupidity of the AI, or should I say "ai" drivers. They seem to be mindless robots just like in previous versions. Surprising, since this is 2001 and it's not that hard to write code for object avoidance. That's my only disappointment with this sim. Brian "John Hilsman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 02:46:43 GMT, "Brian Carabee" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > >I thought maybe have the pull gradually fade in on approach. Admittedly, > >it's not an ideal solution. I suppose the best solution is for me to getrid

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> >of my TM T2 and get a more modern wheel. > > I finally unplugged my T2 and got a LWFF in December. Very difficult > to get the feel of it, but once I did I loved it (I played more Heat > in December and January than I've ever played a driving sim). > > I didn't play the N4 demo much, and when it was released the pull > drove me nuts - at first. I haven't got as much time in with N4 as > most, but I've gotten a bit used to it and I find that I'm actually > beginning to rely on the pull. > > I ran laps at Pocono until I felt more comfortable with the different > driving model. I like that track, and the 3 different corners seem to > be a good challenge to learn how the car responds in different > situations. I used to love Heat, but when I fire it up now it just > doesn't seem as good. > > Anyway, just my thoughts on a similar situation :) Good luck! >

"Brian Carabee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:XqHl6.1$[email hidden]... > Which is the LWFF again? I know the FF is force feedback, but what is LW? LWFF stands for Logitech Wingman Formula Force. > > My problem with the T2 is that no matter how I set linearity and steering > ratio, I get over-steering when trying to compensate for the left pull.The > pot seems to be good as there is little jumping on the calibration screen. From what I've gathered reading here in RAS...The non-force feedback wheels like your T2 have the most trouble with the left pull. With a FF wheel, you just get a little tension pulling you left...so you can counter steer without wobbling all over. dave henrie > > Oh well, the pull to left can be gotten used to, and ultimately I thinkit's > a good thing. What I can't get used to is the stupidity of the AI, orshould

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> I say "ai" drivers. They seem to be mindless robots just like in previous > versions. Surprising, since this is 2001 and it's not that hard to write > code for object avoidance. That's my only disappointment with this sim. > > Brian > > "John Hilsman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 02:46:43 GMT, "Brian Carabee" > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >I thought maybe have the pull gradually fade in on approach.

Admittedly, > > >it's not an ideal solution. I suppose the best solution is for me toget

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> rid > > >of my TM T2 and get a more modern wheel. > > > > I finally unplugged my T2 and got a LWFF in December. Very difficult > > to get the feel of it, but once I did I loved it (I played more Heat > > in December and January than I've ever played a driving sim). > > > > I didn't play the N4 demo much, and when it was released the pull > > drove me nuts - at first. I haven't got as much time in with N4 as > > most, but I've gotten a bit used to it and I find that I'm actually > > beginning to rely on the pull. > > > > I ran laps at Pocono until I felt more comfortable with the different > > driving model. I like that track, and the 3 different corners seem to > > be a good challenge to learn how the car responds in different > > situations. I used to love Heat, but when I fire it up now it just > > doesn't seem as good. > > > > Anyway, just my thoughts on a similar situation :) Good luck! > > > >