Re: It isn't the cars that are dangerous...

I remember seeing a new type of of wall used on a track for a CART race. I think it may have been Miami, but I'm not sure. They had like, 1 inch thick rubber infront of the actual wall, and between the wall and the rubber may have been tyres. "Tim O" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (23 lines)

> > ... it's the tracks. > > I keep seeing comments about the HANS devices and the relatively open > cockpits of Winston Cup cars. > The problem isn't what you're driving so much as what you hit. In > NASCAR's case at most tracks, it's a concrete wall. > > I don't know if it's possible to make a car safe in a 180 MPH impact > with concrete. The saftey of F1 is mentioned, but if an F1 car hit > like Earnhardts car did, I think that driver would also be dead. > What would save lives are run-offs with gravel or sand, but we're > never going to see them due to cost. > > Having an "artificial" break away barrier in place of the concrete > wall, and surrounded by a gravel trap would most likely have saved > everyone killed in the last few years. > The problem is that the old design of the tracks has seating all the > way around, and right up to the track. Making the ovals truly safe > would be a huge expense. It needs to be done, but it won't. > > Tim >

... it's the tracks. I keep seeing comments about the HANS devices and the relatively open cockpits of Winston Cup cars. The problem isn't what you're driving so much as what you hit. In NASCAR's case at most tracks, it's a concrete wall. I don't know if it's possible to make a car safe in a 180 MPH impact with concrete. The saftey of F1 is mentioned, but if an F1 car hit like Earnhardts car did, I think that driver would also be dead. What would save lives are run-offs with gravel or sand, but we're never going to see them due to cost. Having an "artificial" break away barrier in place of the concrete wall, and surrounded by a gravel trap would most likely have saved everyone killed in the last few years. The problem is that the old design of the tracks has seating all the way around, and right up to the track. Making the ovals truly safe would be a huge expense. It needs to be done, but it won't. Tim

was at Rio..conveyor belt in front of tires. I believe in reaction to Blundells crash there. "Incubus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:V9al6.3563$[email hidden]... > I remember seeing a new type of of wall used on a track for a CART race. I > think it may have been Miami, but I'm not sure. They had like, 1 inchthick

Quoted text (29 lines)

> rubber infront of the actual wall, and between the wall and the rubber may > have been tyres. > "Tim O" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > ... it's the tracks. > > > > I keep seeing comments about the HANS devices and the relatively open > > cockpits of Winston Cup cars. > > The problem isn't what you're driving so much as what you hit. In > > NASCAR's case at most tracks, it's a concrete wall. > > > > I don't know if it's possible to make a car safe in a 180 MPH impact > > with concrete. The saftey of F1 is mentioned, but if an F1 car hit > > like Earnhardts car did, I think that driver would also be dead. > > What would save lives are run-offs with gravel or sand, but we're > > never going to see them due to cost. > > > > Having an "artificial" break away barrier in place of the concrete > > wall, and surrounded by a gravel trap would most likely have saved > > everyone killed in the last few years. > > The problem is that the old design of the tracks has seating all the > > way around, and right up to the track. Making the ovals truly safe > > would be a huge expense. It needs to be done, but it won't. > > > > Tim > > > >

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > I don't know if it's possible to make a car safe in a 180 MPH impact > with concrete. The saftey of F1 is mentioned, but if an F1 car hit > like Earnhardts car did, I think that driver would also be dead. > What would save lives are run-offs with gravel or sand, but we're > never going to see them due to cost. >

From what I've seen, F1 cars are designed to break apart in various ways to dissipate energy away from the driver. With all those parts flying off the way they're supposed to, just think of the enormous amounts of energy that is diverted away from the driver. Brian

> What would save lives are run-offs with gravel or sand, but we're > never going to see them due to cost. BS.....gravel and sand cause other problems, such as the cars flipping at horrible rates when the come into contact with either the gravel or sand....the best runoff is asphalt... Dave

Something like that would work perfectly...it just needs to be covered with a thin steel/aluminium sheet or some other material so that the closed-wheel cars don't get "caught" on it as they rub against it when they are driving parallel to the wall. Quite tricky and expensive, I am sure...but obviously worth it. Marc. "Incubus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:V9al6.3563$[email hidden]... > I remember seeing a new type of of wall used on a track for a CART race. I > think it may have been Miami, but I'm not sure. They had like, 1 inchthick

Quoted text (29 lines)

> rubber infront of the actual wall, and between the wall and the rubber may > have been tyres. > "Tim O" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > ... it's the tracks. > > > > I keep seeing comments about the HANS devices and the relatively open > > cockpits of Winston Cup cars. > > The problem isn't what you're driving so much as what you hit. In > > NASCAR's case at most tracks, it's a concrete wall. > > > > I don't know if it's possible to make a car safe in a 180 MPH impact > > with concrete. The saftey of F1 is mentioned, but if an F1 car hit > > like Earnhardts car did, I think that driver would also be dead. > > What would save lives are run-offs with gravel or sand, but we're > > never going to see them due to cost. > > > > Having an "artificial" break away barrier in place of the concrete > > wall, and surrounded by a gravel trap would most likely have saved > > everyone killed in the last few years. > > The problem is that the old design of the tracks has seating all the > > way around, and right up to the track. Making the ovals truly safe > > would be a huge expense. It needs to be done, but it won't. > > > > Tim > > > >

A quick note on this. There was an article in Racecar Engineering on this wall a few years back. In the article, one of the egineers that helped design the system stated that the effectiveness of the wall was very dependent on the radius of the turns, expected angles of impact, etc... So while this system is very promising it is, unfortunately, not a cure-all for every track. You would think that it would certainly help in some of them though. -Bill In article <[email hidden]>, D <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (10 lines)

>was at Rio..conveyor belt in front of tires. >I believe in reaction to Blundells crash there. > >"Incubus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:V9al6.3563$[email hidden]... >> I remember seeing a new type of of wall used on a track for a CART race. I >> think it may have been Miami, but I'm not sure. They had like, 1 inch >thick >> rubber infront of the actual wall, and between the wall and the rubber may >> have been tyres.

-- | "Instead of letting the moon be the Bill Mette | gateway to our future, we have let Enteract, Chicago | it become a brief chapter in our [email hidden] | history." - Andrew Chaikin

Tim O wrote in message ... >The saftey of F1 is mentioned, but if an F1 car hit >like Earnhardts car did, I think that driver would also be dead. Valid point. Isn't that essentially what happened to Senna? I don't mean the actual mode of injury but just the hitting of the wall. I don't have the footage here at work but I seem to remember Senna hit a relatively unprotected wall almost head-on. Dale.

"Tim O" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (10 lines)

> On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:49:40 -0500, "Dave St.Onge" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >BS.....gravel and sand cause other problems, such as the cars flipping at > >horrible rates when the come into contact with either the gravel or > >sand....the best runoff is asphalt... > > Can you site an example for me? I've never seen this. > > Tim

From F1 at Silverstone. Michael Schumacher blew the turn at the end of the hanger straight. (official reason was mechanical failure) He bounced through the gravel trap and hit the tire wall at almost the same speed he left the raceway. Further back in time Nigel Mansell spun off the road while attempting a pass. His car did a 360 and drifted back onto the track, then amazingly, the tires gripped and he took off...this all happend in about 2 seconds..on/off/on and the the thing was WHIPPING around till it caught the asphalt. Next: California Speedway. Two CART drivers, in separate accidents, lost grip coming out of the last turn, they both slide over the grass infield with virtually NO loss of speed. One of those drivers was killed by the impact.(Greg Moore). The old school thinking was gravel was the best way to grab a car and stop it. But the cars these days grip asphalt like you won't believe. A large asphalt runoff area would stop a car rather than bounce it like gravel traps do these days. dave henrie

Yeah the concrete runoff really helped Senna out. JB "Dave St.Onge" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Gwal6.322$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > What would save lives are run-offs with gravel or sand, but we're > > never going to see them due to cost. > > BS.....gravel and sand cause other problems, such as the cars flipping at > horrible rates when the come into contact with either the gravel or > sand....the best runoff is asphalt... > > Dave > > >

On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:49:40 -0500, "Dave St.Onge" <[email hidden]> wrote: >BS.....gravel and sand cause other problems, such as the cars flipping at >horrible rates when the come into contact with either the gravel or >sand....the best runoff is asphalt... Can you site an example for me? I've never seen this. Tim

On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:43:57 GMT, "Brian Carabee" <[email hidden]> wrote: >From what I've seen, F1 cars are designed to break apart in various ways to >dissipate energy away from the driver. With all those parts flying off the >way they're supposed to, just think of the enormous amounts of energy that >is diverted away from the driver. True, but in Earnhardts accident, the enery was dissipated instantly. That was sort of my point. No amount of breakaway parts or a carbon fiber tub is going to prevent a 180 to 0 MPH impact against concrete. Tim

The paved area along the backstretch at Talladega slows the cars a lot more than the grass did. Also, they paved it going into turn 1. On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:57:15 GMT, "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (32 lines)

> >"Tim O" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:49:40 -0500, "Dave St.Onge" >> <[email hidden]> wrote: >> >> >BS.....gravel and sand cause other problems, such as the cars flipping at >> >horrible rates when the come into contact with either the gravel or >> >sand....the best runoff is asphalt... >> >> Can you site an example for me? I've never seen this. >> >> Tim > From F1 at Silverstone. Michael Schumacher blew the turn at the end of >the >hanger straight. (official reason was mechanical failure) He bounced >through the gravel trap and hit the tire wall at almost the same speed he >left the raceway. Further back in time Nigel Mansell spun off the road >while attempting a pass. His car did a 360 and drifted back onto the track, >then amazingly, the tires gripped and he took off...this all happend in >about 2 seconds..on/off/on and the the thing was WHIPPING around till it >caught >the asphalt. Next: California Speedway. Two CART drivers, in separate >accidents, lost grip coming out of the last turn, they both slide over the >grass infield with virtually NO loss of speed. One of those drivers was >killed by the impact.(Greg Moore). > The old school thinking was gravel was the best way to grab a car and >stop it. But the cars these days grip asphalt like you won't believe. A >large asphalt runoff area would stop a car rather than bounce it like gravel >traps do these days. >dave henrie >

"Sideshow Bob" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:[email hidden]... Hi! > Isn't that essentially what happened to Senna? I don't mean the actualmode > of injury but just the hitting of the wall. > I don't have the footage here at work but I seem to remember Senna hit a > relatively unprotected wall almost head-on. Senna wasn't killed by the impact itself but by parts of the front right wheel suspension that pierced the visor of his helmet and caused fatal head and brain injuries. I've seen the crash of Dale from various perspectives now and I am sure that it also wasn't the impact itself that killed him but maybe some part of the car that struck him. Regards Crash

>From what I've seen, F1 cars are designed to break apart in various ways to >dissipate energy away from the driver. With all those parts flying off the >way they're supposed to, just think of the enormous amounts of energy that >is diverted away from the driver. > All the energy dissapating materials in the world didn't help Sam Schmidt, Scott Brayton, etc. Good luck finding a incident similar to Earnhardt's, at the same speed, in which the driver survived or did not recieve massive injuries. - Alan Dale Earnhardt, 1951-2001: "The Last American Hero" R.I.P.

I thought the cause of Senna's death was a freak thing. It was my understanding he was hit and killed with a part on the car that had broken prior to the crash, this did not happen? "Wosco" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:IZel6.2926$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (10 lines)

> Yeah the concrete runoff really helped Senna out. > > JB > > "Dave St.Onge" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Gwal6.322$[email hidden]... > > > What would save lives are run-offs with gravel or sand, but we're > > > never going to see them due to cost. > > > > BS.....gravel and sand cause other problems, such as the cars flipping

at

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > horrible rates when the come into contact with either the gravel or > > sand....the best runoff is asphalt... > > > > Dave > > > > > > > >

Yes I believe it was a suspension linkage to the head. But you have to wonder if a trap would have slowed him just enough to save him...car rolling (not sliding) on concrete loses very little speed. JB "jaf" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (29 lines)

> I thought the cause of Senna's death was a freak thing. It was my > understanding he was hit and killed with a part on the car that had broken > prior to the crash, this did not happen? > > > "Wosco" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:IZel6.2926$[email hidden]... > > Yeah the concrete runoff really helped Senna out. > > > > JB > > > > "Dave St.Onge" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:Gwal6.322$[email hidden]... > > > > What would save lives are run-offs with gravel or sand, but we're > > > > never going to see them due to cost. > > > > > > BS.....gravel and sand cause other problems, such as the cars flipping > at > > > horrible rates when the come into contact with either the gravel or > > > sand....the best runoff is asphalt... > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

In article <[email hidden]>, Tim O <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted text (11 lines)

>On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:49:40 -0500, "Dave St.Onge" ><[email hidden]> wrote: > >>BS.....gravel and sand cause other problems, such as the cars flipping at >>horrible rates when the come into contact with either the gravel or >>sand....the best runoff is asphalt... > >Can you site an example for me? I've never seen this. > >Tim >

Patrick Carpentier at Elkhart Lake, Martin Brundle, there are a couple more that I remember but can't think of the driver right now... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL F1 hcp. +28.67...F2 +151.26...F3 hcp. +373.73 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

>Patrick Carpentier at Elkhart Lake, Martin Brundle, there are a couple more >that I remember but can't think of the driver right now... > Michael Andretti at Portland? - Alan Dale Earnhardt, 1951-2001: "The Last American Hero" R.I.P.

Think of the hundreds if not thousands of drivers who's lives were saved by the combination of energy dissipating materials and construction. It would be foolish to think that these techniques would save the life of every driver in every crash, but that does not negate the fact that hundreds of lives have been saved. Therefore I contend that research should continue and energy dissipating techniques should be employed wherever possible. Brian "Alan Conceicao" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > >From what I've seen, F1 cars are designed to break apart in various waysto > >dissipate energy away from the driver. With all those parts flying offthe > >way they're supposed to, just think of the enormous amounts of energythat > >is diverted away from the driver. > > > > All the energy dissapating materials in the world didn't help Sam Schmidt, > Scott Brayton, etc. Good luck finding a incident similar to Earnhardt's,at the > same speed, in which the driver survived or did not recieve massiveinjuries.

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > - > Alan > > Dale Earnhardt, 1951-2001: > "The Last American Hero" > R.I.P.

Tim O wrote: > > True, but in Earnhardts accident, the enery was dissipated instantly. > That was sort of my point. No amount of breakaway parts or a carbon > fiber tub is going to prevent a 180 to 0 MPH impact against concrete. > > Tim That's exactly the point. If you build a car as strong as a tank, it will not deform on impact but simply stop almost instantly upon collision with the wall. Simple physics (average force times the time interval equals mass times the change in velocity) will tell you that if a car disippates a given momentum (mass times the change velocity) upon collision, the average force acting on the car and therefore average acceleration (average force divided by mass of the car) on the driver within it is inveresly proportional to the time that the deformation takes place. So, if a car is build very rigid, the time spent in a collision is much shorter than it would be if a car is deigned to crumple as much as possible (without deforming the driver cell, of course), and the short times involved create large accelerations and it is these that cause injuries. -Gregor

>Therefore I contend that research should continue and >energy dissipating techniques should be employed wherever possible. I don't disagree. I'm just stating that not every impact is survivable. - Alan Dale Earnhardt, 1951-2001: "The Last American Hero" R.I.P.

But ---- they all survived. Maybe the gravel trap was the reason they survived. The tumbling dissapates the energy in small segments. The drivers are strapped into a survival cell, the cockpit, which protects them from the tumbling. ...Bob "Alan Conceicao" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > >Patrick Carpentier at Elkhart Lake, Martin Brundle, there are a couplemore

Quoted text (11 lines)

> >that I remember but can't think of the driver right now... > > > > Michael Andretti at Portland? > > - > Alan > > Dale Earnhardt, 1951-2001: > "The Last American Hero" > R.I.P.

Exactly, and NASCAR has a head-the-sand attitude about known safetly technology that could be saving more lives. Four deaths in one year I think show more needs to be done and NASCAR officials act more concerned about image and liability than safety. Now with the death of a 'super star' hopefully they will wake up. Marty Brian Carabee wrote:

Quoted text (32 lines)

> Think of the hundreds if not thousands of drivers who's lives were saved by > the combination of energy dissipating materials and construction. It would > be foolish to think that these techniques would save the life of every > driver in every crash, but that does not negate the fact that hundreds of > lives have been saved. Therefore I contend that research should continue and > energy dissipating techniques should be employed wherever possible. > > Brian > > "Alan Conceicao" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > >From what I've seen, F1 cars are designed to break apart in various ways > to > > >dissipate energy away from the driver. With all those parts flying off > the > > >way they're supposed to, just think of the enormous amounts of energy > that > > >is diverted away from the driver. > > > > > > > All the energy dissapating materials in the world didn't help Sam Schmidt, > > Scott Brayton, etc. Good luck finding a incident similar to Earnhardt's, > at the > > same speed, in which the driver survived or did not recieve massive > injuries. > > > > - > > Alan > > > > Dale Earnhardt, 1951-2001: > > "The Last American Hero" > > R.I.P.

On 23 Feb 2001 18:38:44 GMT, [email hidden] (Alan Conceicao) wrote: >>Therefore I contend that research should continue and >>energy dissipating techniques should be employed wherever possible. > >I don't disagree. I'm just stating that not every impact is survivable. > With all due respect, that isn't really much use, is it? We can sit around saying "shit happens" but to achive anthing we need to be asking "How can we minimise the possibility of shit happening? How can we make shit less damaging when it does happen?" To sit about saying "well it didn't help in this case..." or "well it wouldn't have made any difference to Dale (or another deceased driver)' is, frankly, a waste of time and space. Yet that seems to be what about half the responses to any of these suggestions seem to be. DG

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Alan Conceicao) writes:

Quoted text (7 lines)

>>Patrick Carpentier at Elkhart Lake, Martin Brundle, there are a couple more >>that I remember but can't think of the driver right now... >> > >Michael Andretti at Portland? > >-

Was that Portland(right side of the track just before a right-hander)? I'm thinking Elkhart Lake again... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL F1 hcp. +28.67...F2 +151.26...F3 hcp. +373.73 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EldredP wrote: > > Was that Portland(right side of the track just before a right-hander)? I'm > thinking Elkhart Lake again... I think you're right. Seems to me it was Elkhart Lake. -- Fester

>> Was that Portland(right side of the track just before a right-hander)? I'm >> thinking Elkhart Lake again... > > >I think you're right. Seems to me it was Elkhart Lake. > I was thinking it was Portland. Perhaps I'm wrong. - Alan Dale Earnhardt, 1951-2001: "The Last American Hero" R.I.P.