N4 - Dissappointing AI

I've tried to run a 100% laps race at Daytona last night and a 100% laps race at Rockingham this evening and i only came to one conclusion: It's impossible to finish since Papy took too little time for programming the AI. Both races had a AI strenght of 95% and all goes well until the first yellow comes out. From that moment on it seems like you're no longer recognised by the AI, they simply slam into you during yellow, wrecking your car so bad that you have no other choice than going in again. And the spotter tells you to pass a car that is either 12 positions ahead or 20 positions down! Also they also keep slamming into each other during yellow, not to mention the pile-up's entering pit road. Another thing i noticed is that the AI are a bit boring in battlin' each other, not much overtaking is done. Well, i could go on a little while, but i don't wanna be too negative. I'm sure N4 performs great for on-line racing, but i haven't read much complaints from others about the AI, so i doubt if Papy will ever look in to this... Blues

"Blues DeVille" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:979moa$2ul$[email hidden]... > I've tried to run a 100% laps race at Daytona last night and a 100% laps > race at Rockingham this evening and i only came to one conclusion: > It's impossible to finish since Papy took too little time for programming > the AI.(snip) > Well, i could go on a little while, but i don't wanna be too negative. > I'm sure N4 performs great for on-line racing, but i haven't read much > complaints from others about the AI, so i doubt if Papy will ever look into > this... > > Blues >I know what your sayin' . While I eventually figured out how to run at Daytona against the AI it was more a case of "learn by being crashed" than any sort of exercise in reason. I can't picture trying to run an offline season in this without a lot of practising to puzzle out just what sort of weirdness the AI is going to pull on you next. If you think Daytona and the Rock are bad you're not going to like Indy at all. The AI there can barely make a lap without colliding with each other. Just like GPL, N4 is in need of a patch or two to let the essentially excellent sim shine through. Dave_Erb

On Sun, 25 Feb 2001 02:24:40 GMT, "David Erb" <[email hidden]> wrote: > The AI there can barely >make a lap without colliding with each other. Just like GPL, N4 is in need >of a patch or two to let the essentially excellent sim shine through. > >Dave_Erb True, but I'm still amazed that a game which was so long in development was released with such glaring AI errors. Andre

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > True, but I'm still amazed that a game which was so long in > development was released with such glaring AI errors. > > Andre > > There was a gerat deal of effort put into the online portion of the game at, it seems, the expense of the offline AI. I guess Papyrus must have figured that few would play the game offline, so nobody would notice. Unfortunatley for them, the game is such a hit that there are a lot of people like us struggling with the weak offline AI. How you guys got out of the practice at Rockingham in one piece is beyond me :-). I'm sure they'll eventually fix it, but they must have known about the AI problems before they shipped the game. They're too obvious after five minutes of driving. Chris

Actually it seems that lately I'm running into more AI problems online than off... Someone really should have put more effort into the skills of the average online driver... ;-) -John On Sat, 24 Feb 2001 22:29:40 -0500, Christopher E. Johnson <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>In article <[email hidden]>, >[email hidden] says... >> True, but I'm still amazed that a game which was so long in >> development was released with such glaring AI errors. >> >> Andre >> >> >There was a gerat deal of effort put into the online portion of the game >at, it seems, the expense of the offline AI. I guess Papyrus must have >figured that few would play the game offline, so nobody would notice. >Unfortunatley for them, the game is such a hit that there are a lot of >people like us struggling with the weak offline AI. How you guys got out >of the practice at Rockingham in one piece is beyond me :-). > >I'm sure they'll eventually fix it, but they must have known about the >AI problems before they shipped the game. They're too obvious after five >minutes of driving. > >Chris

This is an Amazing case of Deju Vu. Nascar Heat came out with stellar physics but lacked competent AI. (and a basic lack of race strategy) Now N4 comes out with equally brillant car physics but woefully weak AI. Is there a pattern here? Does the complexity of these two programs cause inherrent problems coding AI? Is the physics demand so great that the AI get only a few spare cpu cycles per 1000? dave henrie "Christopher E. Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > > True, but I'm still amazed that a game which was so long in > > development was released with such glaring AI errors. > > > > Andre > > > > > There was a gerat deal of effort put into the online portion of the game > at, it seems, the expense of the offline AI. I guess Papyrus must have > figured that few would play the game offline, so nobody would notice. > Unfortunatley for them, the game is such a hit that there are a lot of > people like us struggling with the weak offline AI. How you guys got out > of the practice at Rockingham in one piece is beyond me :-). > > I'm sure they'll eventually fix it, but they must have known about the > AI problems before they shipped the game. They're too obvious after five > minutes of driving. > > Chris

On Sun, 25 Feb 2001 05:32:21 GMT, "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> This is an Amazing case of Deju Vu. Nascar Heat came out with stellar >physics but lacked competent AI. (and a basic lack of race strategy) Now >N4 comes out with equally brillant car physics but woefully weak AI. Is >there a pattern here? Does the complexity of these two programs cause >inherrent >problems coding AI? Is the physics demand so great that the AI get only a >few spare cpu cycles per 1000? >dave henrie

You could be onto somethign there. In most flight-sims only the users plane has complex flight models probably because the AI can't fly them adequately on todays cpu's.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> Actually it seems that lately I'm running into more AI problems online > than off... Someone really should have put more effort into the > skills of the average online driver... ;-) > > -John > >

Heh, it's a Catch-22. You could tell the online newbie drivers to practice more gainst the AI drivers, but since they can't finish races on many of the tracks and the AI sucks, they say screw it and try to race online <g>. Or maybe Papyrus was trying to model the eratic behavior of online drivers in the offline portion of the game :-). If so, they did a really good job... Chris

Blues DeVille wrote:

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> I've tried to run a 100% laps race at Daytona last night and a 100% laps > race at Rockingham this evening and i only came to one conclusion: > It's impossible to finish since Papy took too little time for programming > the AI. > > Both races had a AI strenght of 95% and all goes well until the first yellow > comes out. From that moment on it seems like you're no longer recognised > by the AI, they simply slam into you during yellow, wrecking your car so bad > that you have no other choice than going in again. > And the spotter tells you to pass a car that is either 12 positions ahead or > 20 positions down! > Also they also keep slamming into each other during yellow, not to mention > the pile-up's entering pit road. > Another thing i noticed is that the AI are a bit boring in battlin' each > other, > not much overtaking is done. > > Well, i could go on a little while, but i don't wanna be too negative. > I'm sure N4 performs great for on-line racing, but i haven't read much > complaints from others about the AI, so i doubt if Papy will ever look in to > this... > > Blues

I have gone on record here about it. My biggest problem is the AI sometimes knows where your car is, and other times it doesn't know (or seem to care). Passing them low coming out of turn 2 at 'Dega is very dicey because they often are stubborn enough to hug the low line, your presence be damned, and you drift right up into them as they drift back down (rrrrr!). If he is on the same lap as I am I don't mind too much but those lapped cars are always getting in your way like this... The biggest quibble that I have is that it doesn't plan ahead >at all<, which is to say that it never 'thinks' more than 1 second ahead; like you said, it is crappy at passing.(if it comes up on a slow lapped car that is hugging the low line in a turn, it will jam on the brakes and pile up behind it, even though it could have easily passed on the outside...). John DiFool

GPL didn't need any patching to run "normal" races. Neither did N3. N4, like NH, was released before its time. Marc. "David Erb" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:I1_l6.3785$[email hidden]... > > "Blues DeVille" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:979moa$2ul$[email hidden]... > > I've tried to run a 100% laps race at Daytona last night and a 100% laps > > race at Rockingham this evening and i only came to one conclusion: > > It's impossible to finish since Papy took too little time forprogramming > > the AI. > (snip) > > Well, i could go on a little while, but i don't wanna be too negative. > > I'm sure N4 performs great for on-line racing, but i haven't read much > > complaints from others about the AI, so i doubt if Papy will ever lookin

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> to > > this... > > > > Blues > > > I know what your sayin' . While I eventually figured out how to run at > Daytona against the AI it was more a case of "learn by being crashed" than > any sort of exercise in reason. I can't picture trying to run an offline > season in this without a lot of practising to puzzle out just what sort of > weirdness the AI is going to pull on you next. If you think Daytona and

the

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> Rock are bad you're not going to like Indy at all. The AI there can barely > make a lap without colliding with each other. Just like GPL, N4 is in need > of a patch or two to let the essentially excellent sim shine through. > > Dave_Erb > >

"Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jddm6.227208$[email hidden]... > GPL didn't need any patching to run "normal" races. Neither did N3. N4, > like NH, was released before its time. > > Marc. > Depends on what you expect: one players "normal" is anothers "occasional". To expect N4 to repeat the same problems in the same sequence as GPL and N3 is a bit much. N4 , like GPL , showed up on shelves in less than optimum condition however, to address one area, the multiplayer in N4 release version is much more robust than GPL's initial release was. I have no problems understanding why N4 was relaesed at this time (to match the start of the racing season) and have no real doubts that Papy will patch those areas that need work. This is part of the business of game producing nowadays and the only way to avoid it is to set your own personal release date i.e. wait until all the outstanding issues have been addressed prior to buying it. My posts on these matters are meant in the form of feedback to the developers. There is an excellent sim at the root of N4 and patches, like those applied to GPL, will be required to reveal it. Dave_Erb

Well, it seems i'm not the only one who's dissappointed after all... It at least gives me some confidence that this will be adressed in a future patch. I can understand that they wanted it to be released at the start of the season, but i seriously doubt if they would have sold less copies if it was released a little later. I believe the Papyrus Nascar series is so well known, it will sell any time of the year... Blues "David Erb" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht news:Wlfm6.4095$[email hidden]... > > "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:jddm6.227208$[email hidden]... > > GPL didn't need any patching to run "normal" races. Neither did N3.N4, > > like NH, was released before its time. > > > > Marc. > > > Depends on what you expect: one players "normal" is anothers > "occasional". To expect N4 to repeat the same problems in the samesequence > as GPL and N3 is a bit much. N4 , like GPL , showed up on shelves in less > than optimum condition however, to address one area, the multiplayer in N4 > release version is much more robust than GPL's initial release was. Ihave > no problems understanding why N4 was relaesed at this time (to match the > start of the racing season) and have no real doubts that Papy will patch > those areas that need work. This is part of the business of game producing > nowadays and the only way to avoid it is to set your own personal release > date i.e. wait until all the outstanding issues have been addressed priorto

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> buying it. My posts on these matters are meant in the form of feedback to > the developers. There is an excellent sim at the root of N4 and patches, > like those applied to GPL, will be required to reveal it. > > Dave_Erb > >

Marc, Papy released about 12 patches within the first 3 months or so after its release and many of these addressed problems with running off-line races. -- Jeff Causey FrogDog Racing www.frogdogracing.com Home of the FrogDog Cyber Racing School Member of the raceserver.net network of servers "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jddm6.227208$[email hidden]... > GPL didn't need any patching to run "normal" races. Neither did N3. N4, > like NH, was released before its time. > > Marc. > > "David Erb" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:I1_l6.3785$[email hidden]... > > > > "Blues DeVille" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:979moa$2ul$[email hidden]... > > > I've tried to run a 100% laps race at Daytona last night and a 100% laps > > > race at Rockingham this evening and i only came to one conclusion: > > > It's impossible to finish since Papy took too little time for > programming > > > the AI. > > (snip) > > > Well, i could go on a little while, but i don't wanna be too negative. > > > I'm sure N4 performs great for on-line racing, but i haven't read much > > > complaints from others about the AI, so i doubt if Papy will ever look > in > > to > > > this... > > > > > > Blues > > > > > I know what your sayin' . While I eventually figured out how to run at > > Daytona against the AI it was more a case of "learn by being crashed" than > > any sort of exercise in reason. I can't picture trying to run an offline > > season in this without a lot of practising to puzzle out just what sort of > > weirdness the AI is going to pull on you next. If you think Daytona and > the > > Rock are bad you're not going to like Indy at all. The AI there can barely > > make a lap without colliding with each other. Just like GPL, N4 is in need > > of a patch or two to let the essentially excellent sim shine through. > > > > Dave_Erb > > > > > >