F1 Safety ????

A marshall injured and now Hakinen flying right through the gravel....he'd still be sliding if not for the tire wall....how is it gravel is supposed to slow a car down? dave henrie

Depends upon how it's laid and raked.

According to Schumacher, the track Marshall at Australia died from injuries suffered from the Villenuve accident. Another sad ending to an exuberant day. dave henrie > A marshall injured and now Hakinen flying right through thegravel....he'd > still be sliding if not for the tire wall....how is it gravel is supposed > to slow a car down? > dave henrie > >

On Sun, 04 Mar 2001 05:03:15 GMT, "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote: > Another sad ending to an exuberant day. It won't be long before the media starts to hammer on this. Those of us who follow the sport know better, but in the general press, the coverage will be all about the bloodshed, not the race. On F1-ITV website, Ralf was quoted as saying the worker was hit by a tire, which begs the question of why, especially after Monza last year, workers aren't behind some sort of barricade while the race is in progress... Paul the Cat =^..^= "We've been sleeping all our lives -- At last we can open our eyes." -- Carly Simon

On Sun, 04 Mar 2001 03:54:53 GMT, "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote: > A marshall injured and now Hakinen flying right through the gravel....he'd >still be sliding if not for the tire wall....how is it gravel is supposed >to slow a car down? >dave henrie I think the ridging in the gravel was supposed to help, but then that's what flipped Michael's car in practice, and they might have smoothed them down a bit (at least it looked that way from the changing in coloring in all the tinted gravel traps). They've got to do something about these cornerworker fatalities, though. With cornerworkers so close to the action, I don't know if anyone could have reacted quickly enough to duck behind a barrier for protection. Doesn't it take 1/2sec just to react to any type of emergency? I don't know what the solution is - flag marshals all in towers (could the drivers see them)? A fully electronic on-board warning (what would be the manual back-up)? Hell - long flags that would let the workers stay far enough behind the barriers? Kendt

He was, initial reports would suggest a) the tyre punchured the wire mesh fence (unlikely) or b) the tyre went under a photographers and track access point where the fence is raised about a foot. Terrible, but likely unavoidable, in what must simply be a freakish racing accident. Regards, Matt, Australia The Black Cat =^..^= <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Sun, 04 Mar 2001 05:03:15 GMT, "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > > Another sad ending to an exuberant day. > > It won't be long before the media starts to hammer on this. Those of > us who follow the sport know better, but in the general press, the > coverage will be all about the bloodshed, not the race. > > On F1-ITV website, Ralf was quoted as saying the worker was hit by a > tire, which begs the question of why, especially after Monza last > year, workers aren't behind some sort of barricade while the race is > in progress... > > Paul the Cat =^..^= > > "We've been sleeping all our lives -- > At last we can open our eyes." > -- Carly Simon

On Sun, 4 Mar 2001 16:38:17 +1100, "Matt Wilson" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Terrible, but likely unavoidable, in what must simply be a freakish racing >accident. Once is a freakish accident, twice starts to look like a pattern. What will be most interesting is where the marshal was stationed, and whether he was hit when Jacques' car got up into the fencing or further down the track where all the debris was scattered. In any case, it seemed to me that workers were right next to the fence, literally leaning on the barricades and that's just not acceptable in a hard braking zone such as that location where accidents are common. If the worker was struck at that location -- and I'm not sure that's the case -- then it's evidence that more space needs to be maintained between the fence and the workers' stations. Paul the Cat =^..^= "We've been sleeping all our lives -- At last we can open our eyes." -- Carly Simon

Yeah....the gravel trap didn't do anything to prevent Hakkinen from sliding into the tire barrier. I believe they mentioned that he received a concussion or something along those lines when he hit the wall.... As for the track worker, my condelences to his family.... Dave "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:h0jo6.501937$[email hidden]... > A marshall injured and now Hakinen flying right through thegravel....he'd > still be sliding if not for the tire wall....how is it gravel is supposed > to slow a car down? > dave henrie > >

Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:h0jo6.501937$[email hidden]... > A marshall injured and now Hakinen flying right through thegravel....he'd > still be sliding if not for the tire wall....how is it gravel is supposed > to slow a car down? > dave henrie > Um, friction? You can't have floating gravel can you, until they come up with something like this then plain ol' gravel is the best we have... And it does a damn fine job when called upon in most cases.

"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:n0ko6.502360$[email hidden]... > According to Schumacher, the track Marshall at Australia died from > injuries > suffered from the Villenuve accident. Another sad ending to an exuberant > day. Yep. So much for F1 Safety. -- [email hidden]

Perhaps David Fisher will post an expose on how lame and outdated track safety in F1 is now, but I doubt it. Prayers for the worker's family and loved ones. -- Scott B. Husted PA-Scott ICQ# 4395450 "Greg Cisko" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:1Rso6.155419$[email hidden]... > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:n0ko6.502360$[email hidden]... > > According to Schumacher, the track Marshall at Australia died from > > injuries > > suffered from the Villenuve accident. Another sad ending to an exuberant > > day. > > Yep. So much for F1 Safety. > > > -- > > [email hidden] > > > > >

Just a question that begs to be asked, wasn't it F1 that pioneered wheel tethers? I'm certain that there will be a few questions why they failed in this collision. Then again, if sufficient force is exerted in snapping a tether, then it's force that isn't being used to send an object at high speed into a crowd. "The Black Cat =^..^=" wrote:

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> On Sun, 04 Mar 2001 05:03:15 GMT, "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > > Another sad ending to an exuberant day. > > It won't be long before the media starts to hammer on this. Those of > us who follow the sport know better, but in the general press, the > coverage will be all about the bloodshed, not the race. > > On F1-ITV website, Ralf was quoted as saying the worker was hit by a > tire, which begs the question of why, especially after Monza last > year, workers aren't behind some sort of barricade while the race is > in progress... > > Paul the Cat =^..^= > > "We've been sleeping all our lives -- > At last we can open our eyes." > -- Carly Simon

"Scott B. Husted" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Perhaps David Fisher will post an expose on how lame and outdated track > safety in F1 is now, but I doubt it. > > Prayers for the worker's family and loved ones. Ditto. -- [email hidden]

Kendt Eklund wrote: > I don't know what the solution is - flag marshals all in towers (could > the drivers see them)? A fully electronic on-board warning (what > would be the manual back-up)? Hell - long flags that would let the > workers stay far enough behind the barriers? NASCAR uses a lighting system all around a race track. Except for road courses... :\ Perhaps this is something that F1 might want to take a look at.

On Sun, 04 Mar 2001 17:33:42 GMT, Mike Donnelly Jr <[email hidden]> wrote: >Just a question that begs to be asked, wasn't it F1 that pioneered wheel >tethers? According to the announcers, if the bits that the tethers are attached to are torn off, the tethers do no good. In a severe enough accident, NOTHING helps, and clearly this was a bad one. =^..^=

On Sun, 04 Mar 2001 17:42:47 GMT, Mike Donnelly Jr <[email hidden]> wrote: >NASCAR uses a lighting system all around a race track. Except for road >courses... :\ Perhaps this is something that F1 might want to take a look at. > Yep - with all the money in F1, you'd think they could implement something similar in a reasonable timeframe. Condolences to the friends and family of the cornerworker. Kendt

On Sun, 04 Mar 2001 17:42:47 GMT, Mike Donnelly Jr <[email hidden]> wrote: Starting last year,all F1 cars have yellow and red lights in the cockpit for indicating track conditions,it is a mandatory rule. Dave K > >NASCAR uses a lighting system all around a race track. Except for road >courses... :\ Perhaps this is something that F1 might want to take a look at. >

On Sun, 04 Mar 2001 17:42:47 GMT, Mike Donnelly Jr Starting last year,all F1 cars have yellow and red lights in the ***pit for indicating track conditions,it is a mandatory rule. Dave K

Good point(s). "The Black Cat =^..^=" wrote:

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> On Sun, 04 Mar 2001 17:33:42 GMT, Mike Donnelly Jr > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Just a question that begs to be asked, wasn't it F1 that pioneered wheel > >tethers? > > According to the announcers, if the bits that the tethers are attached > to are torn off, the tethers do no good. In a severe enough accident, > NOTHING helps, and clearly this was a bad one. > =^..^=

"Scott B. Husted" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Perhaps David Fisher will post an expose on how lame and outdated track > safety in F1 is now, but I doubt it. > yeah; i don't expect that, er, person to show his face around these parts for a few days, at least...

I have always felt that all road courses should have lights at every corner that the corner worker could stand back and control from a safer distance. Also have them connected to a main control panel for the chief flagger at the starting line so they can control them and view what corner has warning light on. Lights are a lot more visible than flags in wet conditions also. This would also help during testing days as many race tracks (in US anyway) do not use the full flagging crew (usually just a few) and some blind corners are left without a flagger. I don't think the electronics are that complicated or expensive compared to the amount of money that is spent to jam more spectators in (like Sears Point). On the other subject of gravel traps, If the car travels into the gravel pointed forward at slower speeds then a rough surface can slow them down very effectively, but at faster speeds the gravel needs to be smooth otherwise the car will bounce in the air and could tumble. If the car enters sideways then a wheel will dig in and flip the car unless its traveling slowly. Its a lot like tire walls or concrete walls. A tire wall is good for forward (90 deg)impact, but at an angle the car will get thrown into a tumble. A concrete wall is very bad for forward impact as it has no give, but at high angles the car slides along it and most likely wont tumble. I would rather have more asphalt or other hard surface where the gravel traps are. Lutrell "Kendt Eklund" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Sun, 04 Mar 2001 17:42:47 GMT, Mike Donnelly Jr > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >NASCAR uses a lighting system all around a race track. Except for road > >courses... :\ Perhaps this is something that F1 might want to take alook at.

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> > > > Yep - with all the money in F1, you'd think they could implement > something similar in a reasonable timeframe. > > Condolences to the friends and family of the cornerworker. > > Kendt

"Mike Donnelly Jr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Just a question that begs to be asked, wasn't it F1 that pioneered wheel > tethers? I'm certain that there will be a few questions why they failed > in this collision. Then again, if sufficient force is exerted in > snapping a tether, then it's force that isn't being used to send an > object at high speed into a crowd. > Was it a case of the tether breaking or what the tether was attached to disentegrating? Big difference there. Jerry Morelock

No, I'm here. F1 fans don't lick the collective backside of their choice of motorsport, unlike fans of another form of, er, racing. From Atlas F1: "Early reports in the paddock suggest that a wheel from Villeneuve's car flew through a photographer's station window in the fencing and hit the marshal with fatal consequences." It's a very freak accident if this is true. The photographers' window is small, and the wheels are now double teathered (an improvement since last season). I'm glad to see that immediately following the race, from the top F1 officials on down to the drivers, they all called for improved safety standards for the track side officials and for a thorough investigation. They, and fans, are not making ridiculous comments such as, "It's a dangerous sport, there's not much you can do." Or, "Either you accept the fact that dying is a part of motor sports, or take up tennis." If they had, I'd rip them apart with criticism. If it turns out that the worker was killed due to gross negligence (such as in NASCAR where they still don't require such basic safety precautions as mandatory full-faced helmets for drivers), then F1 will deserve strong criticism and demands for changes in management of the sport. F1 doesn't react to disaster by hiding from inquires, avoiding changes, and conducting half-hearted investigations. Also from Atlas F1: "Ralf Schumacher said he and Villeneuve had been lucky they were not also injured in the crash: "It's only thanks to the safety level of our cars that nothing bad happened to either of us," he said. "After I got out of my car I had a look in the cockpit of the BAR which was almost destroyed and I was glad to know that Jacques had already stepped out of it." Cockpit safety standards were raised since last season, and there is already new standards set to go into effect next season. Once again the phenomenal safety standards of F1 allowed a driver to walk away from a tremendous accident virtually unhurt. They also wear full-faced helmets so their skulls aren't cracked from front to back if their faces hit the steering wheel. Imagine that? David G Fisher "Mark Stahl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:97u3u7$cqd$[email hidden]...

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> > "Scott B. Husted" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Perhaps David Fisher will post an expose on how lame and outdated track > > safety in F1 is now, but I doubt it. > > > > yeah; i don't expect that, er, person to show his face around these parts > for a few days, at least... > >

Good question. And given that I don't have speedvision and Fox isn't (apparently) showing a replay, I won't get to see it. chainbreaker wrote:

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> "Mike Donnelly Jr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Just a question that begs to be asked, wasn't it F1 that pioneered wheel > > tethers? I'm certain that there will be a few questions why they failed > > in this collision. Then again, if sufficient force is exerted in > > snapping a tether, then it's force that isn't being used to send an > > object at high speed into a crowd. > > > > Was it a case of the tether breaking or what the tether was attached to > disentegrating? Big difference there. > > Jerry Morelock

"Mike Donnelly Jr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Good question. And given that I don't have speedvision and Fox isn't > (apparently) showing a replay, I won't get to see it. Speedvision showed the Australian TV Feed not the F1 world feed. So what I saw on Speedvision was essentially what I saw on Fox last year. The *ONLY* thing you will get with Speedvision is live practice, qual and races. But the much vaunted F1 world feed (with the awesome cameras and angles) which the Europeans get are definitely missing. For example, there was no way that you could tell that JV rearended Ralf from the Speedvision views. We were in a bar and it was noisy so we couldn't hear the sound and commentary for the most part. So we were relying on the picture only. Speedvision was extremely lacking IMHO. About what ESPN used to do actually as they used to have the F1 races live. -- [email hidden]

> They also wear full-faced helmets so their skulls aren't cracked fromfront > to back if their faces hit the steering wheel. Imagine that? I wonder if you would be shouting so loud, had Mikka died in Aus a few years back. I seem to remember that it was touch and go for a while....... MS > > David G Fisher