8-way D-pad?

I'm looking for a wheel and pedals....:) Several wheels are fitted with a "8-way D-pad"....but i don't know what that is....please fill me in...:) All I need is a good wheel with a good set of pedals for 1) RM(rally on gravel, ice/snow and tarmack) 2) STCC2 ( Touring-cars on swedish tarmack racetracks) 3) Maybe I will dig out my copy of SCGT someday....:) I've read something of new cars/tracks here in the forum... 4) GP3...i've also read about something new add-on for this -- Med venlig hilsen / Best regards Thore Sorensen - [email hidden] DK-2700 Bronshoj - Denmark

>"Thore Sorensen" <[email hidden]> wrote > I'm looking for a wheel and pedals....:) > Several wheels are fitted with a "8-way D-pad"....but i don't know what > that is....please fill me in...:) The only "good" wheel that has a D-Pad is the ACT Labs RS. Most of the wheel setups that have such feature are targeted towards the arcade crowd. They are mostly cheap plastic wheels. What it is, it's a gamepad that is on the wheel. It has 8 direction (up/down/left/right/diagonal) and is shaped like a NES gamepad. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

I won't bother describing what a d-pad is since that's already been done, but you can be sure it is a total gimmick. Four or six buttons is way more useful. The wheels you'll probably want to look at are the Act-Labs 'Force RS' and the Guillemot 'Ferrari'. If you don't need force-feedback then the MS 'Precision Racing wheel' is good value. "Thore Sorensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I'm looking for a wheel and pedals....:)<snip> > DK-2700 Bronshoj - Denmark

On Thu, 15 Mar 2001 13:00:35 GMT, "Simon Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I won't bother describing what a d-pad is since that's already been done, >but you can be sure it is a total gimmick. Four or six buttons is way more >useful. The wheels you'll probably want to look at are the Act-Labs 'Force >RS' and the Guillemot 'Ferrari'. If you don't need force-feedback then the >MS 'Precision Racing wheel' is good value. Thx for ur statements ymenard and simon... I was only curious that the 8wd-pad was something to look for in future...but it isnt...:) so I will forget about that... 2 paddles (or shifter) for gear up/down and 1 button (handbreak) is all I need..:) And pedals for speeder/break ofcourse... My PC (for now) is a PII-400 MHz/256MB and I worry about those USB wheels...is it gonna take too much CPU power? If it's so I will look for a wheel with standard gameport interface...and I believe the MS Prec. cant be delievered with that..:( Hmmmm... im confused...maybe I'll take a Thomas wheel...it looks nice.. Or a.... or a....:( BTW: The Guillemot Ferrari ...is that the same as Thrustmaster 360 Modena? Next week I visit Cebit in Hannover/Germany...maybe I should take a real look there for every wheel in the world...and become more confused... -- Med venlig hilsen / Best regards Thore Sorensen - [email hidden] DK-2700 Bronshoj - Denmark

I have a similar PC (PII-333/128MB) and a USB wheel (Logitech Wingman Formula Force) and there is *no* CPU hit as far as I can tell. I believe only the Microsoft FF wheel causes a USB hit because it doesn't use the Immersion technology for force feedback, but rather Microsoft's own implementation, which is CPU-intensive. "Thore Sorensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> My PC (for now) is a PII-400 MHz/256MB and I worry about those USB > wheels...is it gonna take too much CPU power? If it's so I will look for > a wheel with standard gameport interface...and I believe the MS Prec. > cant be delievered with that..:( > Hmmmm... im confused...maybe I'll take a Thomas wheel...it looks nice.. > Or a.... or a....:( >

Having a USB wheel isn't a problem, USB is actually a faster interface than a gameport or serial port. What you've probably heard is stories about the slow-down with the MS FF USB wheel, but that's unique to that wheel, and not a general USB problem. I briefly owned the MS FF USB and it produced quite a big slow-down with GPL and Sports Car GT (in the region of 25% frame rate drop under demanding conditions like race starts), so I obviously returned it, and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone else for the same reason. There's been plenty of speculation as to why this wheel has this problem, centring on the amount of cpu time the wheel needs to generate FF effects, and also possibly faulty drivers/software, but I'm pretty sure it's nothing to do with being a USB wheel. The reason I say that is because the slow-down disappears when FF is switched off, and other usb wheels don't have the slow-down. I own the old Logitech wheel and the Guillemot Ferrari, both of which have usb connectors and neither of which produce any noticeable slow-down. Same with the non-FF version of the MS wheel (Precision Racing Wheel), no slow-down, but if you can afford a Thomas and you're happy without FF then you shouldn't even be looking at the Precision racing wheel :) "Thore Sorensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Thu, 15 Mar 2001 13:00:35 GMT, "Simon Brown" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >I won't bother describing what a d-pad is since that's already been done, > >but you can be sure it is a total gimmick. Four or six buttons is waymore > >useful. The wheels you'll probably want to look at are the Act-Labs'Force > >RS' and the Guillemot 'Ferrari'. If you don't need force-feedback thenthe

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> >MS 'Precision Racing wheel' is good value. > > Thx for ur statements ymenard and simon... > I was only curious that the 8wd-pad was something to look for in > future...but it isnt...:) so I will forget about that... > > 2 paddles (or shifter) for gear up/down and 1 button (handbreak) is all > I need..:) And pedals for speeder/break ofcourse... > > My PC (for now) is a PII-400 MHz/256MB and I worry about those USB > wheels...is it gonna take too much CPU power? If it's so I will look for > a wheel with standard gameport interface...and I believe the MS Prec. > cant be delievered with that..:( > Hmmmm... im confused...maybe I'll take a Thomas wheel...it looks nice.. > Or a.... or a....:( > > BTW: The Guillemot Ferrari ...is that the same as Thrustmaster 360 > Modena? > > Next week I visit Cebit in Hannover/Germany...maybe I should take a real > look there for every wheel in the world...and become more confused... > > -- > Med venlig hilsen / Best regards > > Thore Sorensen - [email hidden] > DK-2700 Bronshoj - Denmark

Thx all for your reply's....:-) Nice to know that we can get answers for our questions here...:) I'm glad the USB-thing was just a MS-annoyment....:-( I will take an extra look at the Guillemot thing and the LWFF.... If I not just order a TSW2....i believe they will be present at: >> Next week I visit Cebit in Hannover/Germany...maybe I should take a real >> look there for every wheel in the world...and become more confused... So I will get a close look and maybe "hands-on" there... -- Med venlig hilsen / Best regards Thore Sorensen - [email hidden] DK-2700 Bronshoj - Denmark

While working on FF for Heat, I was puzzled by the incredible amount of time the MS wheel took to do force feedback (IIRC it was something like 10-20 milliseconds to update the wheel force) compared to less than one millisecond for Logitech et al. The original (slow) MS wheel used the MIDI port, to which I initially attributed the slowdown, but when I tested a USB wheel and found it just as slow I was pretty amazed. I posted a question to the DirectX group, and got a response a long time later (well after we shipped) from someone in the MS DirectInput group (not the Sidewinder group); it seems like the problem is that when you send a force feedback command to a wheel, the DirectX interface is supposed to wait for it to complete, which involves sending a USB packet to the wheel, and then waiting for a reply... The conjecture was that the Logitech drivers were being more clever and perhaps spawning another thread to wait for the reply and let the computer go off and do work while waiting... the MS guy said they were trying to add an "asynchronous" call to DirectInput so that the game could just send a command and not have to hang around for it's return. Perhaps the MS drivers were sticking to the "letter of the law" of DirectInput, while Logitech was playing "fast and loose", but who knows. It's possible that there is something about the firmware for the MS device that requires the slow interlocking access, but I really suspect that it could be fixed with drivers. In theory the games could "work around" this problem by using a seperate thread for force feedback, but the problem is who knows how robust calling DirectX from multiple threads will be--I think nobody wants to be the first to use a particular code path, especially one that could expose all kinds of nasty synchronization problems in DirectX, just to speed up one steering wheel which has already been "tarred and feathered" as a slow wheel. (I think there was at least one other "slow" wheel but I forget which one it was; definitely both Logitech and ACT labs had fast FF times circa a year ago) The next time I work on another PC product I may try the multi-threaded approach if they haven't fixed their drivers by then. As I recall the MS wheel had a pretty nice feel, and it would be a shame not to be able to utilize it properly... but maybe in the mean time someone could get on the Sidewinder driver guys to speed up the existing programs ;) But anyways, a non-FF USB controller is _much_ faster than a gameport device, unless the drivers are really broken. If you look up how the gameport works on PC's, you will understand why! There are some dedicated "digital" gameport cards that speed this up, but those are pretty uncommon these days. -Dave "Thore Sorensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Thx all for your reply's....:-) > Nice to know that we can get answers for our questions here...:) > I'm glad the USB-thing was just a MS-annoyment....:-( > I will take an extra look at the Guillemot thing and the LWFF.... > If I not just order a TSW2....i believe they will be present at: > > >> Next week I visit Cebit in Hannover/Germany...maybe I should take a

real

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> >> look there for every wheel in the world...and become more confused... > > So I will get a close look and maybe "hands-on" there... > > -- > Med venlig hilsen / Best regards > > Thore Sorensen - [email hidden] > DK-2700 Bronshoj - Denmark

Thanks for the info Dave...don't be a stranger...we need more coders hanging around.. dave henrie "Dave Pollatsek" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3ab80678$0$48741$[email hidden]... > While working on FF for Heat,

**** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com **** Microsoft? Update SideWinder Drivers? LOL! This is the most non-updated software on the planet. When it comes to MS hardware, you get what you get in the box, and can never count on anything changing after that :( -Larry "Dave Pollatsek" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3ab80678$0$48741$[email hidden]... > While working on FF for Heat, I was puzzled by the incredible amount oftime > the MS wheel took to do force feedback (IIRC it was something like 10-20 > milliseconds to update the wheel force) compared to less than one > millisecond for Logitech et al. The original (slow) MS wheel used theMIDI > port, to which I initially attributed the slowdown, but when I tested aUSB > wheel and found it just as slow I was pretty amazed. > I posted a question to the DirectX group, and got a response a long time > later (well after we shipped) from someone in the MS DirectInput group(not > the Sidewinder group); it seems like the problem is that when you send a > force feedback command to a wheel, the DirectX interface is supposed towait > for it to complete, which involves sending a USB packet to the wheel, and > then waiting for a reply... > > The conjecture was that the Logitech drivers were being more clever and > perhaps spawning another thread to wait for the reply and let the computer > go off and do work while waiting... the MS guy said they were trying toadd > an "asynchronous" call to DirectInput so that the game could just send a > command and not have to hang around for it's return. Perhaps the MSdrivers > were sticking to the "letter of the law" of DirectInput, while Logitechwas

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> playing "fast and loose", but who knows. It's possible that there is > something about the firmware for the MS device that requires the slow > interlocking access, but I really suspect that it could be fixed with > drivers. > > In theory the games could "work around" this problem by using a seperate > thread for force feedback, but the problem is who knows how robust calling > DirectX from multiple threads will be--I think nobody wants to be the

first > to use a particular code path, especially one that could expose all kindsof

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> nasty synchronization problems in DirectX, just to speed up one steering > wheel which has already been "tarred and feathered" as a slow wheel. (I > think there was at least one other "slow" wheel but I forget which one it > was; definitely both Logitech and ACT labs had fast FF times circa a year > ago) > > The next time I work on another PC product I may try the multi-threaded > approach if they haven't fixed their drivers by then. As I recall the MS > wheel had a pretty nice feel, and it would be a shame not to be able to > utilize it properly... but maybe in the mean time someone could get on the > Sidewinder driver guys to speed up the existing programs ;) > > But anyways, a non-FF USB controller is _much_ faster than a gameport > device, unless the drivers are really broken. If you look up how the > gameport works on PC's, you will understand why! There are some dedicated > "digital" gameport cards that speed this up, but those are pretty uncommon > these days. > -Dave > > "Thore Sorensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Thx all for your reply's....:-) > > Nice to know that we can get answers for our questions here...:) > > I'm glad the USB-thing was just a MS-annoyment....:-( > > I will take an extra look at the Guillemot thing and the LWFF.... > > If I not just order a TSW2....i believe they will be present at: > > > > >> Next week I visit Cebit in Hannover/Germany...maybe I should take a > real > > >> look there for every wheel in the world...and become more confused... > > > > So I will get a close look and maybe "hands-on" there... > > > > -- > > Med venlig hilsen / Best regards > > > > Thore Sorensen - [email hidden] > > DK-2700 Bronshoj - Denmark > >

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Well that's what we hope for in the X-Box... ;) "Dog-Leg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3abba1ff$[email hidden]...

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> **** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com **** > > Microsoft? Update SideWinder Drivers? > > LOL! > > This is the most non-updated software on the planet. > > When it comes to MS hardware, you get what you get in the box, and can

never > count on anything changing after that :( > > -Larry<snip>