IRL Blows!

I have had many discussions about this with my good friend John Bodin. However, I was watching the race yesterday for about 5 minutes. Everyone was doing routine pit stops and low and behold, the Penske team was getting from more mileage than anyone else. Anyway, Deferan slows to come into the pits and gets assholed by some IRL back marker. What a bunch of bush league drivers! No offense to Nascar :-) I turned the channel shortly after that one. It was just disgusting. -- [email hidden]

Gee Greg, tell us how you REALLY feel... That said, during the drivers meeting, the drivers were instructed to move below the yellow line in turn three when making a pit stop... Gil Deferan obviously choose not to follow those instructions and was still in the middle of the track, well above the yellow (inside track marker) line while coming through turn FOUR! Granted, Shreoder (a road racing veteran, who competed at the 24 hours of Daytona and Grand-Am race at Homestead earlier this year) should have moved high on the track, and stayed there, rather than first going high, then choosing to go low, then changing his mind and trying to go back high on the track to avoid a MUCH slower Deferan who was still in the racing groove. Perhaps he he wouldn't have changed his mind he would have avoided Gil... Guess we'll never know, but I do know that Shroeder was angry at the CART champion afterwards, stating that he didn't understand why Gil was go SO slowly while still in the racing groove... On TV It sure looked like a bonehead move by Shroeder, but in all actuality, it was probably "just one of them racing deals". Jay J PS: Greg are you from Canada? "Greg Cisko" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Wrot6.5170$[email hidden]...

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> I have had many discussions about this with my good friend > John Bodin. However, I was watching the race yesterday for > about 5 minutes. Everyone was doing routine pit stops and > low and behold, the Penske team was getting from more > mileage than anyone else. Anyway, Deferan slows to come > into the pits and gets assholed by some IRL back marker. > > What a bunch of bush league drivers! No offense to Nascar :-) > > I turned the channel shortly after that one. It was just disgusting. > > -- > > [email hidden] > > > >

It's fairly common for a league to take care of it's own. Remember when Mike Andretti tried F1? Almost every race, good ol Karl Wedlinger would seek him out and the two would end up walking home. And back in the 80's Al Unser Jr. tried Nascar. First time he got in the middle of a 3 wide situation...bang! Both outside cars closed in and Narrowed his car significantly. Robbie Gordon's first Nascar season was pretty rough as well, however he probably bounced others just as much. Even management gets involved in subtle ways...Alex Zanardi was never allowed to develop his own setups. Williams went to each track with base setups from Ralf Schumi. It's a wonder they even molded a proper seat for him. dave henrie "Greg Cisko" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Wrot6.5170$[email hidden]...

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> I have had many discussions about this with my good friend > John Bodin. However, I was watching the race yesterday for > about 5 minutes. Everyone was doing routine pit stops and > low and behold, the Penske team was getting from more > mileage than anyone else. Anyway, Deferan slows to come > into the pits and gets assholed by some IRL back marker. > > What a bunch of bush league drivers! No offense to Nascar :-) > > I turned the channel shortly after that one. It was just disgusting. > > -- > > [email hidden] > > > >

I'm going to give the IRL a chance this season. ... Okay it still sucks. KILL TONY GEORGE!!!!! :all your base are belong to us: Greg Cisko wrote:

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> I have had many discussions about this with my good friend > John Bodin. However, I was watching the race yesterday for > about 5 minutes. Everyone was doing routine pit stops and > low and behold, the Penske team was getting from more > mileage than anyone else. Anyway, Deferan slows to come > into the pits and gets assholed by some IRL back marker. > > What a bunch of bush league drivers! No offense to Nascar :-) > > I turned the channel shortly after that one. It was just disgusting. > > -- > > [email hidden]

-- Rob Swindells ///////////// Caps Lock

<SARCASM> Come on, Greg -- De Ferran was as much at fault as Schroeder in this incident. I hated to see a Penske driver taken out by an IRL driver, but it was NOT anything intentional (or does anybody want to drag out any conpiracy theories about Castroneves' motor? You probably missed this one, though, since you changed the channel in disgust shortly after the De Ferran incident). Here was what Schroeder and De Ferran had to say about the incident: =============== "I'd been following de Ferran for a few laps," Schroeder said. "He went to the inside and I thought he was just blocking or something. We got into three together, and I backed out of it and got in behind him. I was just trying to bide my time and stay out of trouble. "Going under the bridge all of a sudden he got on the binders and was headed into the pits. It didn't look to me like he was trying to get into the pits before that. I ran into the back of him. I was drafting him, and when he did that I had nowhere to go but straight into the back of him. I'm sore; my head, neck and shoulders hurt, but I passed medical. It was a harder hit than Kentucky last year. "I was picking off one car at a time, trying to stay out of trouble and pick my way to the front, but unfortunately things like this happen sometimes." De Ferran saw the incident the same way. "I was going into the pits, but Jeret probably didn't realize that I was coming in," he said. "I thought I was slowing down enough. It was a misunderstanding." =============== When I first saw the replay on TV, I thought it looked like Schroeder actually ACCELERATED into De Ferran, but after watching it a few times from the various angles, it became obvious that De Ferran got on the binders WAY above the yellow line, and Schroeder was basically following along behind in the draft, waiting for an opportunity to pass; when De Ferran slowed so suddenly, Schroeder had nowhere to go. Jeret Schroeder hasn't had a chance to shine in the IRL yet, but he's an accomplished driver -- he basically comes from a sports car background, having competed in ALMS, USRRC, Toyota Atlantic, and U.S. Formula Ford 2000 series, with a career stretching back to 1990. Based on his background and resume, he's EXACTLY the kind of young American driver who should be driving for a CART team, but it appears that if it weren't for the IRL, he wouldn't be racing in open-wheelers at this point in his career. Care to remind me just how many U.S.-born drivers are racing in CART right now? FWIW, I've had the opportunity to race karts with Schroeder here at Indy at Stefan Johansson's place, and I've got nothing but respect for him. He's a professional, and there's no way he would have taken out De Ferran on purpose. Obviously, De Ferran must feel the same, based on his statement that the incident "was a misunderstanding." Frankly, I really hated to see Penske meet with such bad luck overall -- I was truly hoping that they would add to the overall drama. All in all, though, Phoenix turned out to be a good race with PLENTY of drama towards the end -- any racing fan who wasn't able to see that is simply blinded by the love of CART and disdain for the IRL, and, hence, they shouldn't try to pass themselves off as true "race fans." If you don't like the IRL, that's fine, but judging the racing action based on that inherent dislike is, well, frankly, it's biased, plain and simple, and that pretty much discounts your ability to serve as a jude in this instance. I'm not a big CART fan, personally -- I feel no connection to any of the drivers and teams, but whenever I've tuned in to watch a CART race, I've always been able to admit that there was some good racing action going on (and usually some bad, as well), even at the non-oval events. Furthermore, I really do try to keep any comments I might make about CART positive -- at this point in time, negativity about either the IRL or CART is just another nail in the coffin for open wheel racing in this country. The IRL/CART split is over five years old now -- it's time for EVERYBODY to get over it and get on with life, or seek professional help if you're unable to do otherwise. This is a sport -- "entertainment," to be exact -- and if you think that having two similar racing series that results in more racing overall is a bad thing, then you really must not like racing all that much. But, to get us back on-topic (which was, I believe, "IRL Blows!"), I did find it interesting that former CART and current IRL driver Shigeaki Hattori fared better than BOTH of Penske's drivers in yesterday's race -- including De Ferran, the reigning CART champion. Hattori didn't fare so well in CART last season, so Walker shifted him over to an IRL ride, which led to much derision from the CART ranks, if I recall correctly. To Hattori's credit, keeping out of trouble on the track is a critical part of the racing experience -- "in order to finish first, you must first finish," as they say, and although Hattori didn't finish first, he DID finish the race, even if he was a few laps down. Basically, Hattori stayed out of trouble, and successfully managed to enter the pits at each pit stop in a safe enough manner that he did NOT get rear-ended, which is more than you can say for CART's finest, Gil De Ferran. Basically, if you can't drop down low enough to enter the pits without leaving the guy behind you oblivious of your intentions, then you've pretty much got to accept that your chances of finishing the race -- let alone winning -- are pretty slim. So yeah, maybe the IRL does blow, but when CART's finest come calling and fare so poorly, what does that say about CART? As they say, "People in glass houses . . ." BTW, congratulations on scuttling any kind sentiments or vestigial interest I might have been developing for CART. I'm sure Penske and the other owners appreicate your efforts to draw in new fans for the series. </SARCASM> -- JB P.S. One last thing to remember: This is the REC.AUTOS.SIMULATORS newsgroup, not REC.AUTOS.SPORT.INDY, which I typically avoid like the plague thanks to this type of inane IRL and CART bashing. Ymenard will no doubt be reminding us both to review the newsgroup's charter shortly. ;-) On Mon, 19 Mar 2001 08:15:24 -0600, "Greg Cisko" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>I have had many discussions about this with my good friend >John Bodin. However, I was watching the race yesterday for >about 5 minutes. Everyone was doing routine pit stops and >low and behold, the Penske team was getting from more >mileage than anyone else. Anyway, Deferan slows to come >into the pits and gets assholed by some IRL back marker. > >What a bunch of bush league drivers! No offense to Nascar :-) > >I turned the channel shortly after that one. It was just disgusting. > >-- > >[email hidden] > > > >

You mean you didn't stay to see the big super-imposed portrait of Sam Hornish Jr. that ABC put on the start finish line section of the track when he crossed it and won? ABC is getting way carried-away with that super-imposed crap. I feel insulted for some strange reason everytime I see one of those ads. *shrug* "Greg Cisko" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Wrot6.5170$[email hidden]...

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> I have had many discussions about this with my good friend > John Bodin. However, I was watching the race yesterday for > about 5 minutes. Everyone was doing routine pit stops and > low and behold, the Penske team was getting from more > mileage than anyone else. Anyway, Deferan slows to come > into the pits and gets assholed by some IRL back marker. > > What a bunch of bush league drivers! No offense to Nascar :-) > > I turned the channel shortly after that one. It was just disgusting. > > -- > > [email hidden] > > > >

Did anyone happen to notice the HUGE number of empty seats in the grandstands? I've seen better attendance at high school football games. Pathetic... -- See ya in the pits, Dean I have a terrible memory. In fact my memory's so bad I can't remember how long it's been since I've forgotten anything. "Greg Cisko" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Wrot6.5170$[email hidden]... > I have had many discussions about this with my good friend > John Bodin. However, I was watching the race yesterday for > about 5 minutes. Everyone was doing routine pit stops and > low and behold, the Penske team was getting from more > mileage than anyone else. Anyway, Deferan slows to come > into the pits and gets assholed by some IRL back marker. > > What a bunch of bush league drivers! No offense to Nascar :-) > > I turned the channel shortly after that one. It was just disgusting. > > -- > > [email hidden] > > > > >

On Mon, 19 Mar 2001 14:29:56 GMT, "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> It's fairly common for a league to take care of it's own. Remember when >Mike Andretti tried F1? Almost every race, good ol Karl Wedlinger would >seek >him out and the two would end up walking home. > And back in the 80's Al Unser Jr. tried Nascar. First time he got in the >middle >of a 3 wide situation...bang! Both outside cars closed in and Narrowed his >car >significantly. Robbie Gordon's first Nascar season was pretty rough as >well, however >he probably bounced others just as much. > Even management gets involved in subtle ways...Alex Zanardi was never >allowed >to develop his own setups. Williams went to each track with base setups >from >Ralf Schumi. It's a wonder they even molded a proper seat for him. > dave henrie

I think Unser Jrs nascar stint was in 1993. He got hit from behind by Earnhardt.

You feel insulted? Really.... I for one think it's a great use of technology! They used it during qualifying too, when each driver took their first lap, they showed that drivers picture, car number and name... If you ask me, it's a great way for uninformed fans to put faces with names they hear during the broadcast. JJ "doubleu" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9961ks$s09$[email hidden]... > You mean you didn't stay to see the big super-imposed portrait of Sam > Hornish Jr. that ABC put on the start finish line section of the trackwhen > he crossed it and won? > > ABC is getting way carried-away with that super-imposed crap. I feel > insulted for some strange reason everytime I see one of those ads.*shrug*

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> > "Greg Cisko" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Wrot6.5170$[email hidden]... > > I have had many discussions about this with my good friend > > John Bodin. However, I was watching the race yesterday for > > about 5 minutes. Everyone was doing routine pit stops and > > low and behold, the Penske team was getting from more > > mileage than anyone else. Anyway, Deferan slows to come > > into the pits and gets assholed by some IRL back marker. > > > > What a bunch of bush league drivers! No offense to Nascar :-) > > > > I turned the channel shortly after that one. It was just disgusting. > > > > -- > > > > [email hidden] > > > > > > > > > >

On Mon, 19 Mar 2001 23:14:38 GMT, "Jay J" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I for one think it's a great use of technology! They used it during >qualifying too, when each driver took their first lap, they showed that >drivers picture, car number and name... > >If you ask me, it's a great way for uninformed fans to put faces with names >they hear during the broadcast. It seemed to me that the broadcast (ABC's race 'cast) was devoid of technology, if anything. Seemed like little scoring data (times, laps down, etc.), not many in-car shots, etc. Also, as goofy as it may seem, Fox's GPS-based car-tracker (which always looks to me like alien spacecraft zapping the cars from high above :) would be a real boon to IRL (or CART) with the relatively tinier and thus harder to recognize cars. Or maybe I just need to get a big screen TV... ;) "But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark

On Mon, 19 Mar 2001 21:40:14 GMT, [email hidden] (John Bodin) wrote: >Here was what Schroeder and De Ferran had to say about the incident: Thanks for posting that (saved me the trouble of chasing it down).

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>Jeret Schroeder hasn't had a chance to shine in the IRL yet, but he's >an accomplished driver -- he basically comes from a sports car >background, having competed in ALMS, USRRC, Toyota Atlantic, and U.S. >Formula Ford 2000 series, with a career stretching back to 1990. >Based on his background and resume, he's EXACTLY the kind of young >American driver who should be driving for a CART team, but it appears >that if it weren't for the IRL, he wouldn't be racing in open-wheelers >at this point in his career. Care to remind me just how many >U.S.-born drivers are racing in CART right now?

I'm sorry, but most CART teams aren't in the position to "take a shot" at just any U.S. racer, even with a colorful helmet. And looking at Jaret's resume (http://www.indyracingleague.com/drivers), he doesn't really look like CART material to me (the only bright spot being the '95 F2000 championship in eight years of pro racing). If you look at any of the newer drivers in CART, they bring something to their team, either a proven high skill level (for the better teams) or sponsorship (for the lesser teams). Jaret doesn't seem to offer either, unfortunately. I wish their were more U.S. racers in CART, but Jaret isn't at the top of my list. I think you'd make a much better case with Buddy Lazier, but that one's been shot down before, too. There are a *ton* of "accomplished drivers", but less than 30 CART seats. PS - there are plenty of American racers in CART, about 18 at last count. Yeah, you corrected yourself later in the paragraph, but I couldn't resist. :) "But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark

>>PS - there are plenty of American racers in CART, about 18 at lastcount. Yeah, you corrected yourself later in the paragraph, but I couldn't resist. :) 18 American racers in CART????!!!!???? WHO? Well... Let's see there is: Michael Andretti Jimmy Vasser and then there's... Uh. Um.. Well... Hmmm... Golly Gee, That's all I can think of! Well... Let's see, which teams are the top teams in CART, maybe we can figure out who has a driver from the USA running for them this year... Penske.. Hmmm Nope no American's there, unless you count SOUTH Americans ;-) Ganassi ? Nope none there either... Rahal? Nada... Team Green? Yep.. 1 Mikey, ok so far so good... Patrick? Yep.. 1 on that team too, Jimmy V., ok that's two... Mo Nun? Nope.... Newman Haas? Hmmm Nope none there either... Players Forsythe? Nope.. Canadian's are NORTH Americans though, does that count? PacWest? Nope... Walker Racing? Nada... Bettenhausen? No none there either.... Fernandez racing? Sorry none there either... Jeeze I guess that's about it huh? Sorry for the sarcasm, but for a series based in the USA, with the vast majority of it's races held in the USA, with the majority of it's TV programming aimed at USA audiences, they've got a real problem don't ya think? Now... Before you bash me... Let it be known that I enjoy CART racing, in fact the Wife and I will be attending a CART event next month, and even though Alex Z, Adrian Fernandez, Paul Tracy and Kenny Brack are not from the USA they are my favorite drivers in that series! Jay J "Jeff Vincent" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Mon, 19 Mar 2001 21:40:14 GMT, [email hidden] (John Bodin) > wrote: > > >Here was what Schroeder and De Ferran had to say about the incident: > > Thanks for posting that (saved me the trouble of chasing it down). > > >Jeret Schroeder hasn't had a chance to shine in the IRL yet, but he's > >an accomplished driver -- he basically comes from a sports car > >background, having competed in ALMS, USRRC, Toyota Atlantic, and U.S. > >Formula Ford 2000 series, with a career stretching back to 1990. > >Based on his background and resume, he's EXACTLY the kind of young > >American driver who should be driving for a CART team, but it appears > >that if it weren't for the IRL, he wouldn't be racing in open-wheelers > >at this point in his career. Care to remind me just how many > >U.S.-born drivers are racing in CART right now? > > I'm sorry, but most CART teams aren't in the position to "take a > shot" at just any U.S. racer, even with a colorful helmet. And > looking at Jaret's resume (http://www.indyracingleague.com/drivers), > he doesn't really look like CART material to me (the only bright spot > being the '95 F2000 championship in eight years of pro racing). If > you look at any of the newer drivers in CART, they bring something to > their team, either a proven high skill level (for the better teams) or > sponsorship (for the lesser teams). Jaret doesn't seem to offer > either, unfortunately. > > I wish their were more U.S. racers in CART, but Jaret isn't at the > top of my list. I think you'd make a much better case with Buddy > Lazier, but that one's been shot down before, too. There are a *ton* > of "accomplished drivers", but less than 30 CART seats. > > PS - there are plenty of American racers in CART, about 18 at last > count. Yeah, you corrected yourself later in the paragraph, but I > couldn't resist. :) > > "But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was > nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into > a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark

I agree, i've never been so in-the-dark as to the actual positions of the drivers. I don't think I ever knew the complete 1-10 positions during the whole race. Very little on-screen graphics and the commentators didn't give the positions either. "Jeff Vincent" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > It seemed to me that the broadcast (ABC's race 'cast) was devoid of > technology, if anything. Seemed like little scoring data (times, laps > down, etc.), not many in-car shots, etc. Also, as goofy as it may > seem, Fox's GPS-based car-tracker (which always looks to me like alien > spacecraft zapping the cars from high above :) would be a real boon to > IRL (or CART) with the relatively tinier and thus harder to recognize > cars. Or maybe I just need to get a big screen TV... ;)

On Tue, 20 Mar 2001 00:52:13 GMT, "Jay J" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>>>PS - there are plenty of American racers in CART, about 18 at last >count. Yeah, you corrected yourself later in the paragraph, but I >couldn't resist. :) > >18 American racers in CART????!!!!???? WHO? >Well... Let's see there is: > >Michael Andretti >Jimmy Vasser >and then there's... > >Uh. Um.. Well... Hmmm... Golly Gee, That's all I can think of! > >Well... Let's see, which teams are the top teams in CART, maybe we can >figure out who has a driver from the USA running for them this year... > >Penske.. Hmmm Nope no American's there, unless you count SOUTH Americans ;-) >Ganassi ? Nope none there either... >Rahal? Nada... >Team Green? Yep.. 1 Mikey, ok so far so good... >Patrick? Yep.. 1 on that team too, Jimmy V., ok that's two... >Mo Nun? Nope.... >Newman Haas? Hmmm Nope none there either... >Players Forsythe? Nope.. Canadian's are NORTH Americans though, does that >count? >PacWest? Nope... >Walker Racing? Nada... >Bettenhausen? No none there either.... >Fernandez racing? Sorry none there either... > >Jeeze I guess that's about it huh? > >Sorry for the sarcasm, but for a series based in the USA, with the vast >majority of it's races held in the USA, with the majority of it's TV >programming aimed at USA audiences, they've got a real problem don't ya >think?

Isn't the "good ole US of A" all about being the best? And if it means bringing guys in from the Caribbean (such as baseball), then bring them in. There are very few American drivers who are good enough to run CART It's the truth. So the team owners have gone looking elsewhere. I'd rather watch Alex Zanardi rather than Jeret Schroeder. That's fer sure. BTW perhaps the original poster is in reference to America being North America + South America. Afterall the USA is just the "United States" OF AMERICA. Of course that would have been bad taste.

>I'm not a big CART fan, personally .... This is a serious question, and not sarcastic, I am just curious. Were you an Indycar fan before 1996?

I just wish I could find some REAL RACE FANS on this newsgroup!! All sanctioning bodies are exciting to watch! This whole CART v. IRL thing is long gone. Give it up already!!! Penske has! F1 is boring to NASCAR fans..IRL sucks to CART fans...enough already!!! All racing rules and any true blue race fan will understand this. Thanks for letting me vent.

On 20 Mar 2001 03:57:12 GMT, [email hidden] (Tomlani) wrote:

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>I just wish I could find some REAL RACE FANS on this newsgroup!! All >sanctioning bodies are exciting to watch! This whole CART v. IRL thing is long >gone. Give it up already!!! Penske has! F1 is boring to NASCAR fans..IRL >sucks to CART fans...enough already!!! All racing rules and any true blue race >fan will understand this. > >Thanks for letting me vent.

Thank you thank you thank you thank you!!!!!! VERY well-said. Now, will the REAL race fans please raise their hands? [NOTE: Put your hand back down if you're either an IRL or a CART basher.] ;-) -- JB

On Tue, 20 Mar 2001 03:25:45 GMT, "Don Chapman" <[email hidden]> wrote: >>I'm not a big CART fan, personally .... > >This is a serious question, and not sarcastic, I am just curious. > >Were you an Indycar fan before 1996? Yes -- unequivocably, yes. The 6-foot stand-up Bobby Rahal that resided in my living room in 1993 - 95 was testimony to that. When the IRL and CART split initially occurred, I was outraged, and I immediately took CART's side. After researching the issue and reviewing all the info I could find, I decided that based on what the IRL brought to the table, that would probably be a worthwhile series, given enough time. Since there was no middle ground on the issue, the IRL won my sole support, mainly because I agreed with the need for a series like the IRL. Also, I came to the realization that the ovals were my favorit part of the Indycar series, and although I avidly followed the CART Indycar series, I would occasionally miss races like Vancouver or Portland and find myself not really missing the race at all, if you know what I mean. I'd never miss races like Michigan or Milwaukee, though, which spoke to me even further on the issue. From a sim standpoint (imagine that -- mentioning racing sim in the rec.autos.simulators newsgroup!), I enjoy road racing quite a bit more than ovals, but from a spectator's standpoint, nothing beats watching a good oval race. NASCAR bores me, though, FWIW -- there's something about the skill, speed, and finesse required to race an open-wheeler on an oval that just really makes it all worth watching. I have started following F1, though, and I've always enjoyed Elkhart Lake, Mid-Ohio, and Cleveland, so don't think that I'm trying to bash road and street racing, because I'm not. In the pre-1995 era, I was thoroughly unimpressed with Buddy Lazier, and his presence in the IRL didn't excite me all that much. Now, though, thanks to the IRL, I've learned that Buddy Lazier is not only one of the most personable drivers I've ever met in any series, he's also an oval ace who is ALWAYS worth watching. And Lazier isn't my favorite IRL driver, for that matter. Guys like Jeff Ward have really had a chance to shine in the IRL (if you discount the season he had last year with Foyt, that is), and when you toss in the young up-and-comers like Sam Hornish and Sarah Fisher, the IRL makes for a very appealing package these days. Zanardi's return to CART has also served to spark my enthusiasm there -- over the past few of years, Zanardi and Montoya have been the two main reasons I've watched any CART races at all, but those guys definitely made it worth watching. Overall, though, since CART doesn't race in Indy anymore, I just don't feel that hometown "connection" these days. I don't know how you guys manage who live in cities where they DON'T have any major races at all. <G> When it comes down to "the stars and the cars," I think the IRL and CART both have each commodity in spades -- but the IRL vs CART turmoil has only served to denigrate what both series has to offer, and I find that to be the REALLY sad part of all this. So, does this answer your question? ;-) -- JB

"doubleu" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9961ks$s09$[email hidden]... > You mean you didn't stay to see the big super-imposed portrait of Sam > Hornish Jr. that ABC put on the start finish line section of the trackwhen > he crossed it and won? I hope they stop doing that. I find it to be really annoying and distracting.

"Jay J" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3Jot6.448815$[email hidden]... > PS: Greg are you from Canada? Nope. Is that important? Anyway, I didn't know about the yellow line, so thanks for that info. -- [email hidden]

John Bodin wrote: > > Hattori didn't fare so well in CART last season, so Walker shifted him > over to an IRL ride, which led to much derision from the CART ranks, > if I recall correctly. To say that Hattori didn't fare so well in CART must be the understatement of the year, he had his licence revoked "because his performance did not meet the standards of a Champ Car competitor". A homourous summary of his season in CART can be found at: http://www.deepthrottle.com/scorecard.shtml -- -am

"DTP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:YSvt6.11940$[email hidden]... > Did anyone happen to notice the HUGE number of empty seats in the > grandstands? I've seen better attendance at high school football games. > Pathetic... Yes. But I didn't want to mention that. I think the XFL is getting better attendance :-) -- [email hidden]

"John Bodin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > BTW, congratulations on scuttling any kind sentiments or vestigial > interest I might have been developing for CART. I'm sure Penske and > the other owners appreicate your efforts to draw in new fans for the > series. Wow that was some episle! You cannot seriously believe that comments I make here could hurt the no-shows at the races or on ABC. That is quite funny. > P.S. One last thing to remember: This is the REC.AUTOS.SIMULATORS > newsgroup, not REC.AUTOS.SPORT.INDY, which I typically avoid like the > plague thanks to this type of inane IRL and CART bashing. Ymenard > will no doubt be reminding us both to review the newsgroup's charter > shortly. Screw ymenard. Who give a shit about him anyway? -- [email hidden]

On Tue, 20 Mar 2001 05:37:53 GMT, [email hidden] (John Bodin) wrote:

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>On 20 Mar 2001 03:57:12 GMT, [email hidden] (Tomlani) wrote: > >>I just wish I could find some REAL RACE FANS on this newsgroup!! All >>sanctioning bodies are exciting to watch! This whole CART v. IRL thing is long >>gone. Give it up already!!! Penske has! F1 is boring to NASCAR fans..IRL >>sucks to CART fans...enough already!!! All racing rules and any true blue race >>fan will understand this. >> >>Thanks for letting me vent. > >Thank you thank you thank you thank you!!!!!! > >VERY well-said. > >Now, will the REAL race fans please raise their hands? > >[NOTE: Put your hand back down if you're either an IRL or a CART >basher.] > >;-)

OK, I don't understand this. If I'm a "real race fan", I'm supposed to *like* *every* form of motorsport? F1? CART? IRL? NASCAR? ALMS? Grand-Am? SCCA? NHRA? IHRA? land speed record attempts? local dirt tracks? motocross? sno-cross? swamp buggies? tractor pulls? demolition derby? slot car racing? bar stool and lawnmower races? rush hour at the local traffic circle? (did I miss anyone's favorite racing genre and thereby insult them?) And if I don't like *every single one*, I'm not a "real race fan"? So maybe I should go quietly sob in the corner 'cause JB and Tomlani have voted me out of the "real race fans" club? :) The point being, there's a difference between being tolerant and lacking any sort of discrimination (and for the politically correct, a reminder that the "D-word" *isn't* a curse word). <paragraph on the IRL deleted; your welcome> PS - rereading my posts (both of them), I *thought* I was discussing drivers and the series in a fairly objective manner. I'm sorry if that is considering bashing nowadays. PPS - John, your long post to John Chapman was interesting, but may put you in danger of being thrown out of the "race racing fan" club. :) "But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark

I suppose I consider myself a real racing fan. I watch whatever I can find on tv, whether it be one of the big 4 (nascar,cart,f1,irl); or even ALMS, etc. on Speedvision. I love watching racing events in person, and it just kills me everytime I see the empty grandstands at Texas for the IRL, or the Rock for Nascar last year, or at Michigan for CART. If I lived in the Fort Worth area, you can bet I'd go to every truck race, IRL race, etc. there that I could. I live in the middle of nowhere here in Nebraska and honestly cannot wait to go to the IRL race at Kansas City this July. Sadly I think getting tickets won't be a problem. "Tomlani" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I just wish I could find some REAL RACE FANS on this newsgroup!! All > sanctioning bodies are exciting to watch! This whole CART v. IRL thing islong > gone. Give it up already!!! Penske has! F1 is boring to NASCARfans..IRL > sucks to CART fans...enough already!!! All racing rules and any true bluerace > fan will understand this. > > Thanks for letting me vent.

On Tue, 20 Mar 2001 15:11:12 GMT, [email hidden] (Jeff Vincent) wrote: >On Tue, 20 Mar 2001 05:37:53 GMT, [email hidden] (John Bodin) >wrote: > >>On 20 Mar 2001 03:57:12 GMT, [email hidden] (Tomlani) wrote: >> <LIBERAL SNIP>

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> OK, I don't understand this. If I'm a "real race fan", I'm >supposed to *like* *every* form of motorsport? F1? CART? IRL? >NASCAR? ALMS? Grand-Am? SCCA? NHRA? IHRA? land speed record >attempts? local dirt tracks? motocross? sno-cross? swamp buggies? >tractor pulls? demolition derby? slot car racing? bar stool and >lawnmower races? rush hour at the local traffic circle? (did I miss >anyone's favorite racing genre and thereby insult them?)

Oh, I'm sure you qualify as a "real race fan" -- I wasn't implying that you had to LIKE every form of motorsports, but rather that there should be some inherent level of respect for motorsports in general if you claim to be a "real race fan." Heck, during the heat of the football season, I find myself scanning Speedvision just for a measly tractor pull or something, mainly because ANY motorsport is better than football, as far as I'm concerned. ;-)

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> And if I don't like *every single one*, I'm not a "real race fan"? >So maybe I should go quietly sob in the corner 'cause JB and Tomlani >have voted me out of the "real race fans" club? :) > > The point being, there's a difference between being tolerant and >lacking any sort of discrimination (and for the politically correct, a >reminder that the "D-word" *isn't* a curse word).

I think it's perfectly all right to have discriminatory tastes when it comes to racing -- NASCAR doesn't float my boat, but I have the utmost respect for NASCAR drivers because of what they do for a living, and I try to extend that respect to NASCAR fans as well. I will occasionally engage in some good-natured ribbing with regards to NASCAR, but general I try to show some measure of respect even when among my closest friends. Given the tension and hostilities between the IRL and CART camps, and the way that open-wheel racing is suffering in this country at the moment, I think we'd all be better off if all IRL and CART fans would adopt this same type of attitude with regards to each other's series of choice. ><paragraph on the IRL deleted; your welcome> > > PS - rereading my posts (both of them), I *thought* I was >discussing drivers and the series in a fairly objective manner. I'm >sorry if that is considering bashing nowadays. You were -- I was referring more to the Greg Cisko's of the world <G>. > PPS - John, your long post to John Chapman was interesting, but may >put you in danger of being thrown out of the "race racing fan" club. >:) Au contraire -- I believe my comments there showed a fair degree of respect for CART and its drivers (and fans), despite the fact that I don't really enjoy many of the CART street races. My decision to follow the IRL basically made me an outcast -- as I said, "Since there was no middle ground on the issue, the IRL won my sole support." Basically, many, many, MANY CART fans would not allow you to take a middle ground, and since I found myself somewhat excited about the arrival of the IRL, that immediately "branded" me as an IRL fan (and hence, and anti-CART fan). All the mindless rhetoric about CART's "Cars and Stars," the dire predictions about the demise of the Indy 500 and the IRL, and the tremdous embarrassment that was called the U.S. 500 only served to widen the gulf between people like me who were excited about the IRL and people who continually make posts with titles like "IRL Blows!" Rather than put up with the endless comparisons between the IRL and CART -- and heaven forbid I should lapse into that same pattern myself -- I simply decided that although I respected CART's drivers and teams, the politics, passions, and animosity amongst the fans were just too hot to handle, so my interest in CART essentially waned. I would still catch the occasional CART race -- just as I also catch the occasional NASCAR race, for that matter -- but I found that any passion I had once had for CART was buried beneath a ton of resentment that was generated by CART's own so-called fans. Talk about a public service announcement, eh? Montoya's win at Indy, Penske's return to Indy this year and his presence at Phoenix, and my work with the folks on the CART2K conversion for F1CS2K has helped rekindle that enthusiasm somewhat, but -- what do you know -- along comes someone with pop-off valve comments like Cisko's "IRL Blows!" post, and suddenly I find myself rapidly loosing interest in CART again. This isn't necessarily aimed at you, Jeff, but at all those IRL and CART fans who do nothing more than fan the flames of resentment between the IRL and CART camps: PYHO. 'Nuff said. -- JB

Actually, the XFL is one of the few events that attracts smaller viewership than the IRL (and CART at certain venues). ;-) BTW, check your hotmail account, Greg -- it's VERY important! -- JB On Tue, 20 Mar 2001 07:58:08 -0600, "Greg Cisko" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> >"DTP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:YSvt6.11940$[email hidden]... >> Did anyone happen to notice the HUGE number of empty seats in the >> grandstands? I've seen better attendance at high school football games. >> Pathetic... > >Yes. But I didn't want to mention that. I think the XFL is getting >better attendance :-) > > >-- > >[email hidden] > > > > >

>"Tomlani" <[email hidden]> wrote > I just wish I could find some REAL RACE FANS on this newsgroup!! All > sanctioning bodies are exciting to watch! That's my motto, but I just find that open-wheel cars on ovals is not as exciting, especially in a series that 1) runs on boring tracks 2) has no real history or heritage 3) has a list of very average drivers 4) has bland cars. Sure there is exceptions to all those points, but still... <G> CART on oval tracks is also less fun to watch then when they race on a road course, for me. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

>"Greg Cisko" <[email hidden]> wrote > Screw ymenard. Who give a shit about him anyway? Who give a shit about you anyway? -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

"John Bodin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Actually, the XFL is one of the few events that attracts smaller > viewership than the IRL (and CART at certain venues). > > ;-) > > BTW, check your hotmail account, Greg -- it's VERY important! I just did. Thanks :-) Wow. -- [email hidden]

"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:DmQt6.424301$[email hidden]... > >"Greg Cisko" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Screw ymenard. Who give a shit about him anyway? > > Who give a shit about you anyway? OK I apologize. I meant "who gives a shit". -- [email hidden]

"John Bodin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Montoya's win at Indy, Penske's return to Indy this year and his > presence at Phoenix, and my work with the folks on the CART2K > conversion for F1CS2K has helped rekindle that enthusiasm somewhat, > but -- what do you know -- along comes someone with pop-off valve > comments like Cisko's "IRL Blows!" post, and suddenly I find myself > rapidly loosing interest in CART again. Right. You would loose interest in CART because of something I said in a newsgroup??? I can hardly stop laughing. I lost interest in the IRL until Indy when the IRL guy took out DeFarren. At least that is something substantial. -- [email hidden]

On Tue, 20 Mar 2001 20:36:53 -0600, "Greg Cisko" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>"John Bodin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> Actually, the XFL is one of the few events that attracts smaller >> viewership than the IRL (and CART at certain venues). >> >> ;-) >> >> BTW, check your hotmail account, Greg -- it's VERY important! > >I just did. Thanks :-)

You're welcome! >Wow. Yes, impressive, isn't it? ;-) -- JB

Not really, I thought I might have had you confused for someone on another forum that's all.. JJ "Greg Cisko" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:39Jt6.483$[email hidden]...

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> > "Jay J" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:3Jot6.448815$[email hidden]... > > PS: Greg are you from Canada? > > Nope. Is that important? Anyway, I didn't know about the yellow line, > so thanks for that info. > > -- > > [email hidden] > > > > >

"John Bodin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > >Wow. > > Yes, impressive, isn't it? > > ;-) Frankly, that is yet to be determined :-) -- [email hidden]

"Greg Cisko" <[email hidden]> wrote > OK I apologize. I meant "who gives a shit". LOL ;-) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

In article <9961ks$s09$[email hidden]>, "doubleu" <[email hidden]> writes: >You mean you didn't stay to see the big super-imposed portrait of Sam >Hornish Jr. that ABC put on the start finish line section of the track when >he crossed it and won? > I thought that was pretty cheesy... :( Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +28.67...F2 +151.26... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

writes: I thought that was pretty cheesy... :( Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +28.67...F2 +151.26... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

> >Were you an Indycar fan before 1996? > > Yes -- unequivocably, yes. The 6-foot stand-up Bobby Rahal that > resided in my living room in 1993 - 95 was testimony to that. < Lots of good stuff SNIPPED> > So, does this answer your question? Yes, it does, and I appreciate your response John. I only asked because I have found that many of my IRL friends seem to act as if Indycar racing did not exist before 1996. I have always enjoyed the IRL Insider and have appreciated your contributions to the racing sim community. I also felt that even though you may be on the "other side of the fence" from me, you would be able to provide me with some unbiased insight into the reasons a long time Indycar fan would have become an IRL fan after the split. I agree that the way the two camps initially started out, there was no middle ground on the issue. It was setup to make you choose one side or the other. I know I am going way past the approved topics of this newsgroup, but I promise I will mention some sim racing stuff at the bottom. Let me give some of the reasons why I ended up on the CART side of the split, even though I grew up in the shadow of the Speedway. I am an Indianapolis native who was born and raised an Indycar fan. I started going to the Indianapolis 500 in the early seventies before the series became CART and I believe it was loosely organized by USAC. I attended Indy 500's in the last 3 decades, and watched or listened to every Indycar race I could. I saw all 4 of Rick Mears wins at Indy. I enjoy many forms of racing, but I always told people I was first and foremost an Indycar fan. Back then, I honestly did not pay much attention to the politics, and I would have never told people I was a CART fan. It was simple, I was an Indycar fan, and the greatest race in the world was the Indianpolis 500. No other motor race in the world has existed longer and attracted the best drivers in the world from all forms of racing - Formula 1, Nascar, Sprint cars, Sports cars, Motorcycles, Trans-Am, Off-Road racing, etc. Of course, I knew of some rumblings between the team owners, USAC, the Speedway, etc., but I really did not care. I just loved to follow the drivers and teams in what I considered to be the greatest racing series in the world. I am also a Nascar fan, and back in the eighties I ended up moving south to Nascar country. I still remained a hard core Indycar fan and when my Nascar friends would kid me about Indycars, I would always retort with the fact that there was no other top tier championship in the world that required their drivers to master ovals, super speedways, street circuits, and road courses. No other championship included the greatest race in the world, the Indianapolis 500. Sure, Daytona, Monaco, Monza, Le Mans, there is history there, but it still does not compare to Indy. Where else could you have one race with the likes of Mario Andretti, Dan Gurney, Gordon Johncock, Jackie Stewart, AJ Foyt, Al Unser, Bobby Unser, Johnny Rutherford, Cale Yarborough, Jimmy Clark, Jochen Rindt, Parnelli Jones, and Graham Hill(Indy - 1967). Now granted, I know that these days with longer seasons, huge driver contracts, sponser obligations and specializations, this is not really possible, but the point is the Indianapolis 500 was always about attracting the best drivers in the world to compete in the biggest race in the world. When IMS and the IRL split from CART, they took this part of the Indianapolis 500 with them. The IRL schedule and the Indy points qualifying system(25 of the 33 spots were reserved for IRL teams) made it virtually impossible for a CART team to even compete, or anyone else for that matter. Yes, CART made a boneheaded move by trying to stage the US 500 on the same day as Indy, but both races suffered greatly. Anyone who thinks the Indy 500 has not suffered from the split is fooling themselves. The Indy 500 averaged a 9.5 TV rating from 1992-1994(before the split), but has averaged 6.2 in the three races that have run without delay since 1995. In 1999, the event hit an all-time low of 5.5 and in 2000 it was the same. Granted, no CART race would approach a 5.5 rating, but the point is the 500 was the marque event for US open wheel racing, and since the split it is hurting greatly. I have no problem with some of the reasons Tony George and IMS had for forming the IRL. Reducing costs, increasing parity, more openings for young American sprint car drivers, etc. These are admirable goals. However, this should not have been at the expense of the Indianapolis 500's prestige and tradition. Also, in the 5 years of the IRL, I do not believe many of these goals have come to fruition. Granted, 5 years may not be enough time to have realized all these things, but lets look at the statistics. Since the IRL's formation in 1996 there have been a total of 44 races(including Phoenix last weekend). These 44 races have been won by 20 different drivers. Of these 20 individuals, 5 of them are foreign(25%). Of the 44 total races, 13 of them have been won by foreigners. This is 30% of the total races. On average, one in every 3.33 IRL races will be won by someone who was not born in the USA. Three of the five IRL contested Indy 500's have been won by foreigners. This is 60%!. In the 17 years CART ran at Indy, only 4 were won by foreigners(24%). Of course there are very few American drivers in CART, but my point is the IRL is hardly an American only series. I have never really understood the philosophy that the IRL is geared towards furthering US born drivers, especially given the statistics above. While I would like to see more US drivers in open-wheel racing, the bottom line is that I want to see the BESTopen-wheel racers, regardless of nationality. Do we lament the fact that the US national pastime of baseball is more and more dominated by Puerto Ricans, Cubans, and Mexicans? Do we care that the NHL is dominated by Canadians and Russians? Personally, I do not. These are where some of the best players in the world are from in these sports, and that is who should be competing. My all time favorite sport is track and field, specifically distance running. I grew up when Americans like Jim Ryan, Frank Shorter, Marty Liquori, Steve Prefontaine, Bill Rodgers, Alberto Salazar and Craig Virgin were the best in the world. In the last 20 years, the North Africans from countries like Kenya, Morocco, and Ethiopia have completely dominated the sport. An American distance runner is lucky to make it to an Olympic final, let alone have a chance at a medal. So do we decide to form our own US only Olympics, or do we try to figure out the reasons why we are unable to compete with the best in the world? American institutions like the Boston Marathon(105 years old) and the New York Marathon(30 years old) have not been won by an American since the early 80's. Should we now limit these races to Americans only, or somehow give Americans an advantage? No! These races are about attracting the best in the world, regardless of nationality. In regards to the IRL helping out the Sprint car guys, out of these 20 IRL winners, only 3 came from Sprint car backgrounds(15%). Tony Stewart, Billy Boat, and Al Unser Jr. And you can hardly count Al Unser Jr. as a sprint car IRL success. He went from the World of Outlwas series in the late 70's to CART where he had almost 20 years of success before "retiring" to the IRL. 5 wins of 44 total IRL races can be attributed to "midget" and "sprint" car guys. This is 11%. Hardly an homage to the Sprint car guys. No IRL contested Indy 500 has been won by a racer that was bred on Sprint cars. In fact, all 5 IRL contested Indy 500's have been won by either former or current CART drivers(100%). Of the 20 IRL winners, 13 of them are either former or current CART drivers(65%). 32 out of 44 IRL races have been won by former or current CART drivers(73%). Given these statistics, the idea that the IRL is somehow giving more chances to up and coming drivers from other series seems overblown. I was glad to see young Sam Hornish get his first win last weekend at Phoenix, and I hope to see Casey Mears next! Yes, the cost to start a team is cheaper in the IRL but the teams with the most money are still the ones who dominate. A.J. Foyt Enterprises, Team Menard, Kelley Racing, Panther Racing, Hemelgarn Racing, Treadway Racing. These are the teams that are always winning in the IRL, and these are the teams with the most money. The Buzz Calkins and Jim Guthrie type wins are few and far between. The reality of motorsport is that even if you make the price of admission cheaper, it is still the teams with the most money that usually have the most success. This is true in virtually all professional sports, especially team based. This is no different than Ganassi, Penske, Team Green, Newman/Haas Racing, Patrick Racing, and Team Rahal dominating in CART. Now I do realize that motorsports has as much to do with sponsorships and money, as it does talent. Sometimes the most talented driver may not get a break due to low budget teams with no chance to win. Part of the reason why CART has fewer American drivers, is because they have had fewer American sponsors. The fact is, open wheel racing is more popular in other countries, therefore, there is more interest, more support, and possibly a larger talent pool coming from outside the US. Forbes magazine lists Michael Schumacher as the highest grossing athlete in the world for 2000, ahead of Tiger Woods, yet most Americans have no idea who he is. However, everyone in America knows the names of Jeff Gordon and Dale Earnhardt. This is not because Nascar has only American drivers, or that it has better racing, or that Americans only like ovals. It is because Nascar has marketed itself very well, and has ALWAYS catered to the fans, sometimes to a fault. I am not of the thinking that Nascar is the evil in American motorsports, or that Nascar has to fail for the IRL or CART to grow. I have heard these philosophies in both camps and I think this is incorrect thinking. I think one of the main reasons open wheel racing in America is hurting is because of the damage that was done to the fans with the split. I was an Indycar fan from the early 70's up until 1996-1997. Then somehow, I became the bad guy or traitor in the eyes of many of my friends and familyu still in Indy. I continued to follow the drivers(Michael Andretti, Bobby Rahal, Emerson Fittapaldi, Al Unser, Jr.), the teams(Penske, Gurney, Patrick, Newman/Haas), the tracks(Michigan, Milwaukee, Mid-Ohio, Long Beach, Laguna Seca, Elkhart Lake, Cleveland), and the cars(Lola, Reynard, AAR Ealges, Penske, Ilmor, Mercedes, Ford Cosworth, etc.) that I had followed for the past 20+ years. However, now my IRL friends said I could not call myself an Indycar fan. I had to call myself a CART fan, a Champcar fan. Whatever.... The "Indycars" of the IRL were now V8 powered cars that sounded more like a stock car than the high pitched whine of the turbocharged CART cars that I had grown to love. Yes, this new series had the Indianapolis 500, but all the other races were oval only and spread so far apart as to make it uninteresting from a series championship standpoint. Some of the IRL drivers I knew from CART(Cheever, Sharp, Goodyear, Lazier, Luyendyk), but none of these drivers were coming from championship caliber performances. These were guys who were either on the tail end of their careers, or had had no luck in CART. Young midget/sprint car champ Tony Stewart was the most compelling IRL driver, and it only took a couple years for Nascar to scoop him up. Most Americans probably have no idea he had a stint in the IRL. As I saw it, the IRL was not remotely the Indycar racing I had been raised on. Outside of AJ Foyt's involvement, I felt no attachment to it whatsoever. Not only had Tony George and the IRL limited the competition at the Indy 500, but they also cahnged the traditions that I had grown to love in the month of May regarding practice and qualifying. I was devastated. I refused to watch any IRL race, although I followed the resutls and standings closely. I hoped for a quick reconciliation. Five years later this still looks a long way off. I am gald that the IRL lifted the Indy qualifying limits and that CART was smart enough to stop trying to compete with the 500, thus allowing CART teams to compete at Indy if they desired. So last year, I did watch the Indianapolis 500 for the first time since 1995. In fact, I believe I watched all the IRL races last year. And I even enjoyed many of them. However, I still hold a huge grudge for the disservice that was done to the Indycar fans and the CART drivers by Tony George and the IRL. Before you tell me that the CART drivers could have gone to the IRL and run at Indy if they had wanted to, let me give you some perspective from the drivers side. Al Unser Jr., Michael Andretti, Bobby Rahal, Jimmy Vasser, Scott Pruett and Emerson Fittipaldi surely wanted to still run at Indy. But what could they do? Their hands were tied. These drivers were in a well established series with lucrative contracts, sponsorships, and prize money. They were driving for big teams that had 20-30+ years experience. Al Unser Jr. was coming off his best season ever in 1994 with Penske. Fittapaldi was coming off a few good seasons with Penske as well, and Michael was on the comeback trail after his F1 dissappointment. The IRL's first season in 1996 consisted of 5 races spread out over 9 months with the first three races counting for the 1996 season and the last 2 races counting for the 1996-1997 season, which was 10 races spread out over 14 months! CART was running 17-19 races a season with solid International and Stateside support. There were virtually no teams in the IRL that could have paid any of these CART drivers a fair salary compared to what they were making in CART. Outside of the Indy 500, their was no comparison in the prize money at the races, let alone the championship points battle. Also, the IRL was an oval only series that was going to race only on American soil. CART had long standing and successful road/street races in Australia, Canada, Long Beach, and Laguna Seca. Plus, the majority of these drivers had spent their whole careers learning the intricacies of running road/street circuits, ovals, and superspeedways. "Little Al" leaving Penske at that time to go to the IRL, would have been similar to Schumacher leaving Ferrari now for a new racing series. If you think that the CART team owners should have just given in to the Speedway and the IRL, keep in mind that huge amounts of money and time had already been invested into the track contracts, sponsorships, TV deals, enginge/chassis manufacturers, etc. It would be like telling the NFL to give it up and join the XFL. It would have been financial suicide. In the end, it is the fans and the drivers that were hurt the most. How great would Zanardi have been at Indy from 1996-1998 during his prime? How great would Greg Moore have been at the Speedway? Unfortunately we will never know. I also find it very sad that Bobby Rahal and Emerson Fittipaldi retired after the split before running their last Indy, and getting the admiration and recognition from the Indy fans for all they did at the Speedway. I no longer have much hope that the Indy 500 will be restored to its past glory. The idea of a CART(road/street course) IRL(oval) combination series sounds ok, but in reality is probably not doable because of the huge egos in both camps and the major differences in the rules, engine specs, etc. As a long time Indycar fan, I just have a much closer attachment to CART as Indycar racing than I do the IRL. However, I agree that it can't be true Indycar racing without the Indianapolis 500 as the marquee event. The IRL just does not feel like the racing I grew up with. I always ask my IRL friends in Indianapolis what they called themselves before 1996? Were they not Indycar fans then? Did they hate CART back then? I don't remeber even using the words CART back then. I seem to remember going to the races with them. I do not remember them bemoaning CART, street circuits, and foreign drivers. Do they forget that USAC Indycars even raced at road circuits, and that AJ Foyt himself won Indycar races at Silverstone and Mosport Park before CART was formed? Do they not realize that Rick Mears, one of the greatest Indycar racers of all time, won all 4 of his Indianapolis 500 titles during the CART era? Do they now dismiss the CART era Indy 500 wins of Al Unser Jr., Danny Sullivan, Bobby Rahal, and Emerson Fittipaldi? To better illustrate my feelings and help those unfamiliar with all the specifics of the CART/IRL spilt, I will end with an analogy that sums up how the whole thing hurt me as a fan. I think it can safely be argued that The Masters in Augusta is the pinnacle of professional golf. Think of Augusta as the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, The Masters as the 500, and the PGA as CART. What if you had followed PGA golfers and the Masters all your life, then one day Augusta has a dispute with the PGA, and decides to break away from the PGA and start its own circuit called the MGA. It will have far less tournaments, less overall prize money, and some of the tournaments will conflict with PGA tournaments. As a pro golfer, if you want to even participate in The Masters, you would have to participate in the other MGA events, thus bypassing PGA events. Not only that, but they change the rules as well. In the MGA the clubs and balls now have different specs, and they no longer compete outside the US. Sure, some guys like John Daly, Greg Norman or Seve Ballesteros decide to go over to the MGA, but guys like Tiger, Garcia, Mickleson, and Duval stick with the PGA due to the increased opportunities and their established relationships with sponsors that expect them to compete in PGA events. So, The Masters goes on but it just is not the same because it is missing many of the best golfers in the world and has changed its previous tranditions. The PGA championship goes on, but its just not the same without The Masters as its marquee event. Maybe Greg Norman finally wins it, but all the best in the world are not there. You love Augusta and The Masters because of its history and all the years you followed it, but now it just does not feel right. This is how I feel about the Indianapolis Motor Speedway and the IRL. Someday, I would like to be able to call myself an Indycar fan again and brag about the Indy 500 being the greatest race in the world. As for my sim racing, I am looking forward to both CART Heat and IRL Heat, as well as the CART F1 2000 patch. I really appreciate all the work you guys have done. I have owned and played virtually every open wheel racing sim starting with Indianpolis 500: The Simulation to GP3 and F1CS2K. I used to play ABC Interactive's Indy Racing game(after you hooked me up with the utitlity to make the steering better), and I currently play Indy Net Race Live. My sim racing is unbiased. Too bad Indy was not included with Nascar Heat, that would be the ultimate. The best open wheel version we currently have of the Speedway is the Nascar 3 track converted to Grand Prix Legends. Anyway, thanks for your time and keep up the good work! Don Chapman [email hidden]

Don Chapman wrote in message ... <a great article deleted for brevity> Great stuff, Don. You should send this in for publication! Thanks, Dave Ewing