How far alongside for a corner to be yours?

It's my understanding that in F1 and CART the inside car needs to be at least halfway alongside the outside car before the outside car turns in for the apex for the corner to belong to the inside car... any less and the inside car should give way. At least that's how I (try to) drive on VROC. Is this also true in Nascar? Are the rules any different on ovals? Yeah, I'm asking b/c the Gordon/Stewart incident at Bristol, but I may also run Nascar races online in the future, too. Your help is always appreciated, David

If im under someone im not backing out, im racing

Well, in GPL, you have to be pretty far forward to be seen. If I can't see you, then I will most likely turn in. Then YOU have caused the accident IMO. That's not racing, that's arrogant stupidity. -Tony- George Major wrote: > If im under someone im not backing out, im racing

As long as you're alongside the corner can only be half "yours", it's the same for both the inside and the outside car. Jan. =--- David Montani wrote... > <snip>

This is quite an interesting problem in VROC (and F1, as it happens!). I've found that the best policy if someone tries to dive inside me is actually to take a wider line rather than trying to shut the door - you can still keep them behind you, and it gives them a chance to realise their mistake and avoid hitting you. As Frentzen discovered at Australia, it may be the following guy's fault, but you can still end up worse off! If he had taken a *slightly* wider line, Barrichello would have been able to avoid him, but would still not have been able to overtake. I've been told that the convention in '67 was to stick to your own half of the track if there is any overlap - this seems to work well in T1, as I normally find that if someone makes a reckless pass, it's better to let them through and wait for them to drive off the circuit a few corners later! I do agree that it's normally the following driver's fault if there is any contact, but it's a good idea to drive defensively at all times! "Tony Jester" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Well, in GPL, you have to be pretty far forward to be seen. If I can't > see you, then I will most likely turn in. Then YOU have caused the > accident IMO. That's not racing, that's arrogant stupidity. > > -Tony- > > George Major wrote: > > > If im under someone im not backing out, im racing >

Well David.... As a practical matter, your description (F1 and CART) are accurate....as to the generally accepted "gentlemen's" agreement among open wheel drivers....on road courses. The matter in F1 and CART....is as much an issue of "no fenders".....as it is one of turn/apex ownership. Generally speaking, two open wheel cars coming together in any side by side situation, results in the day/race being over for both drivers....or much worse. Such is not the case obviously with closed wheel race cars. And it is certainly not the case when racing on oval speedways. The "oval" part of the track is not a "turn" as we think of the term in road racing. And while there are exceptions to the "multiple racing lane/line" being predominant on oval speedways....for the most part, there are two lanes (sometimes three) that represent racing lines around the track.....cars can be equally fast in either, depending on how they are set up....or, how their "setup" has come in....so to speak....to the current laps on the tires and track conditions (and weight of the car, etc.). You will often hear these referred to as "on the bottom" (the lower lane next to the inside yellow stripe) or "up top" (next lane up) and so forth. In NASCAR...and most forms of oval track racing.....it is generally accepted that the car (driver) is always entitled to the real estate they currently occupy (meaning the lane they are in)....and if they move out of that lane and make car contact.....its their fault (the flip side of that being, if you remain in your lane...and another competitor moves out of theirs.....and hits you...its their fault). Now.......what really goes on between drivers on the track...... is the good sense (racing sense) that drivers have...or lack...with regard to knowing when another car is encroaching on your territory.....but its being done unavoidably by the other driver. Sometimes you "yield" your lane to avoid an accident......period! Other times you stray into another lane by mistake.......sometimes by "chance" and often it is even unavoidable (your car is pushing and it just won't hold a line).....and, "yes" sometimes you do it on purpose! I saw the "incident" between Gordon and Stewart today too. I also had taped the race, so I was able to playback the "replay" several times. If I was the NASCAR official in charge....I would have blamed the incident on Stewart......and had nothing else transpired...chalked it off to a "racing accident." Gordon was clearly "on the bottom".....Stewart was clearly coming down from the next lane up.....when the "contact" occurred. And, how they each got into that position isn't really too important......especially in the last 10 laps at Bristol. Gordon was entitled to the real estate his car occupied...as was Tony. But, Tony's car appears to come down into the bottom lane.....granted he's ahead of Gordon....but not enough that his left rear clears Gordon's right front.....as Tony's car comes into the bottom lane. At Bristol.....the car on top of an exchange like that is going to lose! There isn't a good race car driver anywhere in the world....let alone in NASCAR....that will back out of the throttle...racing in the last 10 laps at any track...and they are on the bottom! If Stewart wanted the bottom lane....then it was his responsibility to clear Gordon's car......period! One exceptional bit of circumstance to add to all of this .....is that produced by the car physics of the Bristol track itself. The high banking, relatively short radius turns....mean the cars are not traveling all that fast (certainly not as fast as they run through the high banks at Talladega or Daytona).....and if you let out of the throttle.......even so slightly too much......your car is going to come down the banking as it slows....even a mile an hour or two! That's why I say...."it was Stewarts's fault.....but chalk it off to a racing accident." I don't think Tony was intentionally trying to take the bottom away from Gordon. If he was, he would have done so on the entry.....not in the middle or almost in the middle of the turn. What happened subsequently....is an entirely different matter. I have not been to FOX, NASCAR.com....or read lower than this r.a.s. post...so I'm unaware of any "news" about what NASCAR's "response" was (or is) to Stewart ramming Gordon on pit road following the checkered. I know, you could sense even Darrel Waltrip's "shock" at what Stewart did. Even though Darrell was trying to make a joke of it......regarding Tony apparently "losing his brakes".....you could see (hear) he was embarrassed by Stewart's actions. I was embarrassed by Stewart's action. I think most race car drivers would be........since that type of behavior is not acceptable under any conditions for any reason what so ever. For a celebrity race car driver to pull something like that.....is embarrassing to all race car drivers......who don't want the fans.....or none drivers.....to think that's "ok" to do! This is not about being a Stewart fan....or a Jeff Gordon fan.......heck, if Dale himself came down from heaven to race for a day.....I'd be all over him for doing something like Tony did today at Bristol! That was wrong, that was flagrant....and that was completely disrespectful to racing....and every person in it.....past, present and future! I hope they throw the book at him! In fact, had Tony been going just a little faster.....its possible he could have been arrested for that stupid move. You do that on the street....and its called "attempted murder, or an attempt to do bodily harm or property damage with a lethal weapon.....a car!" That's a felony....and it has a mandatory prison sentence. My God, what was Tony thinking? Did he think he'd just finished a pickup race on Sierra.com at Bristol? It will take something quite extraordinary for Tony Stewart to ever have my respect again. What's worse, I think when he looks at the tape...he'll see that Gordon did nothing intentional....that, in fact....it was his own fault he got spun by Jeff. I'd be looking for my hari-kari belt and candle if I was Stewart tonight! Tom Pabst

Exactly. Once I'm in the corner its mine. The only way he is getting it back is either by outrunning me on the outside or pushing me off the track. I have no intention of backing off each time he might want to pass me and get into that turn first. I'm racing. ************************************ Dave Pawlikowski [email hidden] www.cushdrive.com www.luftwaffe-experten.com ICQ - 103134094 "Ah, the Luftwaffe.. The Washington Generals of The History Channel." Homer Simpson ************************************ "George Major" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Nlzv6.12079$[email hidden]... > If im under someone im not backing out, im racing > >

"Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:CBDv6.5286> > I saw the "incident" between Gordon and Stewart today too. I also hadtaped > the race, so I was able to playback the "replay" several times. If I was > the NASCAR official in charge....I would have blamed the incident on > Stewart......and had nothing else transpired...chalked it off to a "racing > accident." Gordon was clearly "on the bottom".....Stewart was clearly > coming down from the next lane up.....when the "contact" occurred. And,how > they each got into that position isn't really tooimportant......especially > in the last 10 laps at Bristol. Gordon was entitled to the real estatehis > car occupied...as was Tony. But, Tony's car appears to come down into the > bottom lane.....granted he's ahead of Gordon....but not enough that hisleft > rear clears Gordon's right front.....as Tony's car comes into the bottom > lane. I didn't tape it so I'll have to wait for a re-airing but I didn't notice any contact before Gordon had reached the apron. That would indicate that Gordon gave up the real estate he was entitled to. Had he kept his lefts above the apron, and then Tony came down into him your reasoning would make sense. It looked to me that after Gordon reached the apron, and Tony had his lefts down near the yellow line before Gordon move back onto the track and that contact is was spun Stewart. It would seem to me that if a driver breaches that yellow line he has lost all "rights" to any real estate. I think they both made bad choices, and Gordon happened to get lucky.

IMHO, that's the type of attitude that causes all the T1 crashes in online racing. It's better to back off and live to fight another day than push a risky move. -- Ian P <email invalid due to spam> Karaya One <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:x4Ev6.1370$[email hidden]... > Exactly. > > Once I'm in the corner its mine. The only way he is getting it back is > either by outrunning me on the outside or pushing me off the track. > > I have no intention of backing off each time he might want to pass me and > get into that turn first. I'm racing. > >

> Once I'm in the corner its mine. The only way he is getting it back is > either by outrunning me on the outside or pushing me off the track. >So you're the one causing all the T1 pileups!!! > I have no intention of backing off each time he might want to pass me and > get into that turn first. I'm racing. >The race goes for n-many laps, not just one corner. I am sick and tired of guys that have to win the race in the first corner. So many VROC racers know nothing about racecraft: picking your spot, looking for weaknesses, forcing errors, etc. What you guys need is a NHRA sim, then you can leave the corners to people who know how to race. --MikeE

I caught an interview with Stewart on the tube last night; after seeing the video, he admitted it was his fault, apologized to his sponsors, etc.. Clearly he came down on Gordon after he'd gotten a bit high. Said he just didn't see him "on my fender". Sounds like some online races, eh? Best sim strategy is; if you miss your apex and someone sticks a nose under you, stay wide and keep as much steam as possible going into the next straight/turn. If you chop 'em off you're probably both done, at least until online racing becomes more tolerant of car contact. Cheers, Steve B. "Mike White" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jMEv6.12560$[email hidden]... > > "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:CBDv6.5286> > > I saw the "incident" between Gordon and Stewart today too. I also had > taped > > the race, so I was able to playback the "replay" several times. If Iwas > > the NASCAR official in charge....I would have blamed the incident on > > Stewart......and had nothing else transpired...chalked it off to a"racing

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> > accident." Gordon was clearly "on the bottom".....Stewart was clearly > > coming down from the next lane up.....when the "contact" occurred. And, > how > > they each got into that position isn't really too > important......especially > > in the last 10 laps at Bristol. Gordon was entitled to the real estate > his > > car occupied...as was Tony. But, Tony's car appears to come down into

the

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> > bottom lane.....granted he's ahead of Gordon....but not enough that his > left > > rear clears Gordon's right front.....as Tony's car comes into the bottom > > lane. > > > I didn't tape it so I'll have to wait for a re-airing but I didn't notice > any contact before Gordon had reached the apron. That would indicate that > Gordon gave up the real estate he was entitled to. Had he kept his lefts > above the apron, and then Tony came down into him your reasoning would

make > sense. > > It looked to me that after Gordon reached the apron, and Tony had hislefts > down near the yellow line before Gordon move back onto the track and that > contact is was spun Stewart. It would seem to me that if a driverbreaches > that yellow line he has lost all "rights" to any real estate. > > I think they both made bad choices, and Gordon happened to get lucky. > > >

Karaya One wrote:

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> > Exactly. > > Once I'm in the corner its mine. The only way he is getting it back is > either by outrunning me on the outside or pushing me off the track. > > I have no intention of backing off each time he might want to pass me and > get into that turn first. I'm racing.

I disagree. I'll back off enough to avoid the wreck, but not enough where I'll lose the draft. As long as I've got the draft there's no doubt we will be rumbling again later in the race. The only exception I make is if I'm going for the win on the last lap. The last 2 corners I'm not backing down for nothing. -- Fester

Well I thought it was hilarious. > I saw the "incident" between Gordon and Stewart today too. I also hadtaped > the race, so I was able to playback the "replay" several times. If I was > the NASCAR official in charge....I would have blamed the incident on > Stewart......and had nothing else transpired...chalked it off to a "racing > accident." Gordon was clearly "on the bottom".....Stewart was clearly > coming down from the next lane up.....when the "contact" occurred. And,how > they each got into that position isn't really tooimportant......especially > in the last 10 laps at Bristol. Gordon was entitled to the real estatehis > car occupied...as was Tony. But, Tony's car appears to come down into the > bottom lane.....granted he's ahead of Gordon....but not enough that hisleft > rear clears Gordon's right front.....as Tony's car comes into the bottom > lane. At Bristol.....the car on top of an exchange like that is going to > lose! There isn't a good race car driver anywhere in the world....letalone > in NASCAR....that will back out of the throttle...racing in the last 10laps > at any track...and they are on the bottom! If Stewart wanted the bottom > lane....then it was his responsibility to clear Gordon's car......period! > One exceptional bit of circumstance to add to all of this .....is that > produced by the car physics of the Bristol track itself. The highbanking, > relatively short radius turns....mean the cars are not traveling all that > fast (certainly not as fast as they run through the high banks atTalladega > or Daytona).....and if you let out of the throttle.......even so slightly > too much......your car is going to come down the banking as itslows....even > a mile an hour or two! That's why I say...."it was Stewarts'sfault.....but

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> chalk it off to a racing accident." I don't think Tony was intentionally > trying to take the bottom away from Gordon. If he was, he would have done > so on the entry.....not in the middle or almost in the middle of the turn. > > What happened subsequently....is an entirely different matter. I have not > been to FOX, NASCAR.com....or read lower than this r.a.s. post...so I'm > unaware of any "news" about what NASCAR's "response" was (or is) to

Stewart > ramming Gordon on pit road following the checkered. I know, you couldsense > even Darrel Waltrip's "shock" at what Stewart did. Even though Darrellwas > trying to make a joke of it......regarding Tony apparently "losing his > brakes".....you could see (hear) he was embarrassed by Stewart's actions.I > was embarrassed by Stewart's action. I think most race car drivers would > be........since that type of behavior is not acceptable under anyconditions > for any reason what so ever. For a celebrity race car driver to pull > something like that.....is embarrassing to all race car drivers......who > don't want the fans.....or none drivers.....to think that's "ok" to do! > This is not about being a Stewart fan....or a Jeff Gordon fan.......heck,if > Dale himself came down from heaven to race for a day.....I'd be all overhim > for doing something like Tony did today at Bristol! That was wrong, that > was flagrant....and that was completely disrespectful to racing....andevery > person in it.....past, present and future! I hope they throw the book at > him! In fact, had Tony been going just a little faster.....its possiblehe > could have been arrested for that stupid move. You do that on the > street....and its called "attempted murder, or an attempt to do bodilyharm > or property damage with a lethal weapon.....a car!" That's afelony....and > it has a mandatory prison sentence. My God, what was Tony thinking? Didhe > think he'd just finished a pickup race on Sierra.com at Bristol? > > It will take something quite extraordinary for Tony Stewart to ever havemy > respect again. What's worse, I think when he looks at the tape...he'llsee > that Gordon did nothing intentional....that, in fact....it was his ownfault > he got spun by Jeff. I'd be looking for my hari-kari belt and candle if I > was Stewart tonight! > > Tom Pabst > >

Well I thought it was hilarious. important......especially

No, no, not at all! There are NO rules for overtaking in any form of motorsport, there is only a gentlemanly conduct that drivers are supposed to follow. Nobody can own the corner. If There is a car to your inside you can stop him from overtaking you if it's possible but you must let him stay on the track. If you look to the inside of a driver and clearly see that he is not aware of you being there or you just aren't far enough along side to make a decent effort then back out. Too many drivers seem to have the desire to make an effort at overtaking even if they know they'll be hit just so they can say they are in the right. It's only all common sense and chivalry. That's why I sort of defended Rubens in Melbourne. The TV shots showed he tried to back out (broke very very hard to stop the car) when he realised he was too far back. Frentzen had the idea in his head that if he's ahead, he "owns" the corner, so he turned in much too sharply with a car to your inside, Rubens nose was there and bam, out goes Heinz. In fairness to Rubens he looked like he tried to back out but couldn't completely stop his car at that speed! Frentzen took a very tight racing line as if there wasn't a car in sight hoping that if they did touch he'd just blame Rubens as "he owned the corner". Rubbish. It's a race, if you can genuinely make an attempt then you are entitled to, weather you make it or not. The lead car does not have a right to take a tight line knowing you'll touch. If often find that, the lead car can usually avoid the collision by taking a slightly later apex so they'll go wide and not hit the car trying to pass but cut in late making sure they stay ahead. As far as overtaking "rules" go, they are all in the imagination of Anti-Schumacher fans :-) David Montani <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:H8zv6.5890$[email hidden]... > It's my understanding that in F1 and CART the inside car needs to be at > least halfway alongside the outside car before the outside car turns infor

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> the apex for the corner to belong to the inside car... any less and the > inside car should give way. At least that's how I (try to) drive on VROC. > Is this also true in Nascar? Are the rules any different on ovals? Yeah, > I'm asking b/c the Gordon/Stewart incident at Bristol, but I may also run > Nascar races online in the future, too. > Your help is always appreciated, > David > >

Tony Jester <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Well, in GPL, you have to be pretty far forward to be seen. If I can't > see you, then I will most likely turn in. Then YOU have caused the > accident IMO. That's not racing, that's arrogant stupidity. > > -Tony- > > George Major wrote: > > > If im under someone im not backing out, im racing >

huh? It's his fault for you not being aware of your surroundings? You'll make an F1 driver yet :-) If his on your inside you can fight him but you haven't got the right to turn in on him. (people have a terrible habit of turning very early when defending positions, I don't know why, it makes them slower in corners and makes them hit a car to their inside.)

Karaya One <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:x4Ev6.1370$[email hidden]...

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> Exactly. > > Once I'm in the corner its mine. The only way he is getting it back is > either by outrunning me on the outside or pushing me off the track. > > I have no intention of backing off each time he might want to pass me and > get into that turn first. I'm racing. >

A good philosophy! Co-incidentally this is the reason I like guys like Montoya and Schumacher, if their on your inside and think they can make it, they'll race you and go for it! It's racing afterall! And it's the same reason i don't like the style of someone like DC. "I was 2mm ahead, I owned the corner, I had to right to turn in on him"...etc... Rubbish!

Mike Eppel <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:99nkrf$8g1$[email hidden]... > > Once I'm in the corner its mine. The only way he is getting it back is > > either by outrunning me on the outside or pushing me off the track. > > > So you're the one causing all the T1 pileups!!! > > > I have no intention of backing off each time he might want to pass meand > > get into that turn first. I'm racing. > > > The race goes for n-many laps, not just one corner. I am sick and tiredof > guys that have to win the race in the first corner. So many VROC racers > know nothing about racecraft: picking your spot, looking for weaknesses, > forcing errors, etc. What you guys need is a NHRA sim, then you can leave > the corners to people who know how to race. > Who said anything about first corners? You have to be sensible then, if there is free track take it, but if there is a group just stay where you are. We are talking about a 1 on 1 battle for a corner here.

"GraDee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:99nucv$lqg$[email hidden]...

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> > Mike Eppel <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:99nkrf$8g1$[email hidden]... > > > Once I'm in the corner its mine. The only way he is getting it back is > > > either by outrunning me on the outside or pushing me off the track. > > > > > So you're the one causing all the T1 pileups!!! > > > > > I have no intention of backing off each time he might want to pass me > and > > > get into that turn first. I'm racing. > > > > > The race goes for n-many laps, not just one corner. I am sick and tired > of > > guys that have to win the race in the first corner. So many VROC racers > > know nothing about racecraft: picking your spot, looking for weaknesses, > > forcing errors, etc. What you guys need is a NHRA sim, then you can

leave

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> > the corners to people who know how to race. > > > > Who said anything about first corners? You have to be sensible then, if > there is free track take it, but if there is a group just stay where you > are. > We are talking about a 1 on 1 battle for a corner here.

You're forgetting that the guy in front is generally braking *as late and hard as he possibly can*. He's already fully committed to the corner. So it's impossible for him to back off, and sometimes it's not even possible for him to make room for you. So it's the passing car's responsibility to make sure he brakes early enough that he can back off if he doesn't get a good run on the other guy. If everyone has a policy of never backing off, that's just asking for accidents. There's only one ideal braking point, and one apex in most corners. Can't have two cars in one place at the same time. On ovals of course, it's a little different because the leading car can back off much more easily. -A

> No, no, not at all! > There are NO rules for overtaking in any form of motorsport, there is onlya > gentlemanly conduct that drivers are supposed to follow. >Wrong! The "International Sporting Code", Appendix L, Chapter IV, Section 2 is about "Overtaking". There are clear regulations regarding what a driver may/may not do during overtaking. So, yes the ARE rules for overtaking. Everyone would be better served if you included an "AFAIK" in front of you statements of pseudo-fact. > Rubbish. It's a race, if you can genuinely make an attempt then you are > entitled to, weather you make it or not. > The lead car does not have a right to take a tight line knowing you'll > touch. >Its about physics, plain and simple. Two cars cannot occupy the same space at the same time. Being able to reset your car gives sim racers false courage. Change all the VROC servers to Pro damage and see what happens<g>. > As far as overtaking "rules" go, they are all in the imagination of > Anti-Schumacher fans :-) >And FIA apparently. --MikeE

"GraDee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:99nu9b$lq8$[email hidden]... > Co-incidentally this is the reason I like guys like Montoya andSchumacher, > if their on your inside and think they can make it, they'll race you andgo > for it! It's racing afterall! > And it's the same reason i don't like the style of someone like DC. "I was > 2mm ahead, I owned the corner, I had to right to turn in on him"...etc... > Rubbish! Oh come on, when did he last do that? In the last couple of seasons I reckon Coulthard has made some of the best (only?) overtaking moves on the track. Two years ago he did manage to spin out his team-mate with a rather dumb move, but since then he's been excellent in the overtaking department (if not everywhere else...). It all started when he was accused of being "too nice", so he's now making sure he overtakes whenever he can!

If you really are faster , you won't need to run someone else off the road to get past. I have so much more respect for a driver's skill who can stay with me without sitting so close that a crash is INEVITABLE , and then walk past when I slide wide or whatever , or even if they never get past. There's often some bell-end who forces their way down the inside late braking into Parabolica etc and then slides across the racing line - you can laugh at them in a couple of laps 'cos they'll always crash out - because they aren't really very good drivers when all's said and done. In answer to the question , if you can SEE the driver alongside , and you know they're faster than you - it's theirs. Mike Eppel <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:99nkrf$8g1$[email hidden]... > > Once I'm in the corner its mine. The only way he is getting it back is > > either by outrunning me on the outside or pushing me off the track. > > > So you're the one causing all the T1 pileups!!! > > > I have no intention of backing off each time he might want to pass meand > > get into that turn first. I'm racing. > > > The race goes for n-many laps, not just one corner. I am sick and tiredof

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> guys that have to win the race in the first corner. So many VROC racers > know nothing about racecraft: picking your spot, looking for weaknesses, > forcing errors, etc. What you guys need is a NHRA sim, then you can leave > the corners to people who know how to race. > > --MikeE > >

In article <jMEv6.12560$[email hidden]>, "Mike White" <[email hidden]> writes: >I didn't tape it so I'll have to wait for a re-airing but I didn't notice >any contact before Gordon had reached the apron. That would indicate that >Gordon gave up the real estate he was entitled to. Had he kept his lefts >above the apron, and then Tony came down into him your reasoning would make >sense. > Re-airing? When? Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +28.67...F2 +151.26... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <Nlzv6.12079$[email hidden]>, "George Major" <[email hidden]> writes: >If im under someone im not backing out, im racing > So you'd rather crash, and take BOTH cars out? That's not racing, that's wrecking... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +28.67...F2 +151.26... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Fox Sports Net has been re-airing the races during the following week, typically at 8PM local time. Sometimes Monday Nights sometimes Tuesday Nights. edb EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <jMEv6.12560$[email hidden]>,"Mike

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> White" <[email hidden]> writes: > > Re-airing? When? > > Eldred > -- > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > F1 hcp. +28.67...F2 +151.26...

So you feel that if you can get an inch inside of a guy's bumper, then the corner is yours? That is total BS. You must earn that position, you can't just push your way in. Sure many people will give you the corner, but you shouldn't expect it to be given. JB "George Major" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Nlzv6.12079$[email hidden]... > If im under someone im not backing out, im racing > >

So a guy only has to get 1 inch ahead of your back end and it is his corner? You have to WORK to pass someone, you can't just inch forward and expect to have the apex. JB "GraDee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:99nu5c$lpr$[email hidden]...

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> > Tony Jester <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Well, in GPL, you have to be pretty far forward to be seen. If I can't > > see you, then I will most likely turn in. Then YOU have caused the > > accident IMO. That's not racing, that's arrogant stupidity. > > > > -Tony- > > > > George Major wrote: > > > > > If im under someone im not backing out, im racing > > > > huh? It's his fault for you not being aware of your surroundings? You'll > make an F1 driver yet :-) > > If his on your inside you can fight him but you haven't got the right to > turn in on him. > (people have a terrible habit of turning very early when defending > positions, I don't know why, it makes them slower in corners and makes

them > hit a car to their inside.) > >

Exactly the sort of info I was looking for... thanks a bunch, David Tom Pabst <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:CBDv6.5286$[email hidden]... > Well David.... > As a practical matter, your description (F1 and CART) are accurate....asto > the generally accepted "gentlemen's" agreement among open wheel > drivers....on road courses. The matter in F1 and CART....is as much an > issue of "no fenders".....as it is one of turn/apex ownership. Generally > speaking, two open wheel cars coming together in any side by sidesituation, > results in the day/race being over for both drivers....or much worse. > > Such is not the case obviously with closed wheel race cars. > > And it is certainly not the case when racing on oval speedways. The"oval" > part of the track is not a "turn" as we think of the term in road racing. > And while there are exceptions to the "multiple racing lane/line" being > predominant on oval speedways....for the most part, there are two lanes > (sometimes three) that represent racing lines around the track.....carscan > be equally fast in either, depending on how they are set up....or, howtheir > "setup" has come in....so to speak....to the current laps on the tires and > track conditions (and weight of the car, etc.). You will often hear these > referred to as "on the bottom" (the lower lane next to the inside yellow > stripe) or "up top" (next lane up) and so forth. In NASCAR...and mostforms

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> of oval track racing.....it is generally accepted that the car (driver) is > always entitled to the real estate they currently occupy (meaning the lane > they are in)....and if they move out of that lane and make car > contact.....its their fault (the flip side of that being, if you remain in > your lane...and another competitor moves out of theirs.....and hits > you...its their fault). > > Now.......what really goes on between drivers on the track...... is the

good

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> sense (racing sense) that drivers have...or lack...with regard to knowing > when another car is encroaching on your territory.....but its being done > unavoidably by the other driver. Sometimes you "yield" your lane to avoid > an accident......period! Other times you stray into another lane by > mistake.......sometimes by "chance" and often it is even unavoidable (your > car is pushing and it just won't hold a line).....and, "yes" sometimes you > do it on purpose! > > I saw the "incident" between Gordon and Stewart today too. I also had

taped > the race, so I was able to playback the "replay" several times. If I was > the NASCAR official in charge....I would have blamed the incident on > Stewart......and had nothing else transpired...chalked it off to a "racing > accident." Gordon was clearly "on the bottom".....Stewart was clearly > coming down from the next lane up.....when the "contact" occurred. And,how > they each got into that position isn't really tooimportant......especially > in the last 10 laps at Bristol. Gordon was entitled to the real estatehis > car occupied...as was Tony. But, Tony's car appears to come down into the > bottom lane.....granted he's ahead of Gordon....but not enough that hisleft > rear clears Gordon's right front.....as Tony's car comes into the bottom > lane. At Bristol.....the car on top of an exchange like that is going to > lose! There isn't a good race car driver anywhere in the world....letalone > in NASCAR....that will back out of the throttle...racing in the last 10laps > at any track...and they are on the bottom! If Stewart wanted the bottom > lane....then it was his responsibility to clear Gordon's car......period! > One exceptional bit of circumstance to add to all of this .....is that > produced by the car physics of the Bristol track itself. The highbanking, > relatively short radius turns....mean the cars are not traveling all that > fast (certainly not as fast as they run through the high banks atTalladega > or Daytona).....and if you let out of the throttle.......even so slightly > too much......your car is going to come down the banking as itslows....even > a mile an hour or two! That's why I say...."it was Stewarts'sfault.....but

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> chalk it off to a racing accident." I don't think Tony was intentionally > trying to take the bottom away from Gordon. If he was, he would have done > so on the entry.....not in the middle or almost in the middle of the turn. > > What happened subsequently....is an entirely different matter. I have not > been to FOX, NASCAR.com....or read lower than this r.a.s. post...so I'm > unaware of any "news" about what NASCAR's "response" was (or is) to

Stewart > ramming Gordon on pit road following the checkered. I know, you couldsense > even Darrel Waltrip's "shock" at what Stewart did. Even though Darrellwas > trying to make a joke of it......regarding Tony apparently "losing his > brakes".....you could see (hear) he was embarrassed by Stewart's actions.I > was embarrassed by Stewart's action. I think most race car drivers would > be........since that type of behavior is not acceptable under anyconditions > for any reason what so ever. For a celebrity race car driver to pull > something like that.....is embarrassing to all race car drivers......who > don't want the fans.....or none drivers.....to think that's "ok" to do! > This is not about being a Stewart fan....or a Jeff Gordon fan.......heck,if > Dale himself came down from heaven to race for a day.....I'd be all overhim > for doing something like Tony did today at Bristol! That was wrong, that > was flagrant....and that was completely disrespectful to racing....andevery > person in it.....past, present and future! I hope they throw the book at > him! In fact, had Tony been going just a little faster.....its possiblehe > could have been arrested for that stupid move. You do that on the > street....and its called "attempted murder, or an attempt to do bodilyharm > or property damage with a lethal weapon.....a car!" That's afelony....and > it has a mandatory prison sentence. My God, what was Tony thinking? Didhe > think he'd just finished a pickup race on Sierra.com at Bristol? > > It will take something quite extraordinary for Tony Stewart to ever havemy > respect again. What's worse, I think when he looks at the tape...he'llsee > that Gordon did nothing intentional....that, in fact....it was his ownfault > he got spun by Jeff. I'd be looking for my hari-kari belt and candle if I > was Stewart tonight! > > Tom Pabst > >

When I was racing SCCA we had these discussions all the time. They were just as conclusive :-). There are no written rules. The defacto rules seem to be: In CART you can crash all you want provided that you take the racing line, not a blocking line, and that you do it less frequently than Paul Tracy. In SCCA if you crash while overtaking twice in a year in front of the same Stewrd he'll do something about it. In F1, you can just take someone out, provided it wins you the Championship (Schumacher). In NASCAR you can take one inch of the inside line (Gordon) and if the other guy comes down (Stewart) that's tough. You cannot spin someone out by driving into them from behind, and they'll do something about it maybe 50% of the time. If you just screw up their corner without actually spinng them, they'll never take action. In all forms of racing, the real enforcer is the Golden Rule. Do something bad to another driver and everyone will cheer when he retaliates. No NASCAR driver wants to see another driver's race totally ruined because some clown went for fourth place (winning would be a totally different story). If Stewart had just kept his cool he would have had a free shot at Gordon to use when it counted. And Gordon would have known it, too, which could also be used by Stewart. It was just dumb to give that advantage up.

> If Stewart had just kept his cool he would have had a free shot at Gordonto use when it > counted. And Gordon would have known it, too, which could also be usedby Stewart. > It was just dumb to give that advantage up. >That is what I'm talking about... racecraft. The best drivers are thinking drivers. --MikeE

GraDee wrote:

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> It's only all common sense and chivalry. That's why I sort of defended > Rubens in Melbourne. The TV shots showed he tried to back out (broke very > very hard to stop the car) when he realised he was too far back. Frentzen > had the idea in his head that if he's ahead, he "owns" the corner, so he > turned in much too sharply with a car to your inside, Rubens nose was there > and bam, out goes Heinz. In fairness to Rubens he looked like he tried to > back out but couldn't completely stop his car at that speed! Frentzen took a > very tight racing line as if there wasn't a car in sight hoping that if they > did touch he'd just blame Rubens as "he owned the corner".

IMO you are talking utter rubbish, just my opinion of course. Gerry

In article <99o3ab$n75$[email hidden]>, "Mike Eppel" <[email hidden]> writes: >Its about physics, plain and simple. Two cars cannot occupy the same space >at the same time. Being able to reset your car gives sim racers false >courage. Change all the VROC servers to Pro damage and see what happens<g>. No one joins them. They're all scared of the CHALLENGE...<g> Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +28.67...F2 +151.26... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Right. So, if any guy might have a chance to pass me while I'm firmly entrenched in my low line in the turn, I should back off and let him pass me. Eventually, I'll be in last place. Shall I slow down before the turn in case a guy might be coming, so as to let him pass me, and avoid the wreck that might happen? And when I want to fight my way back to the front? Only straightaway passing, no corners? No wonder I stuck with SCCA Solo 2 all those years. Cones don't worry about the racing line! ************************************ Dave Pawlikowski [email hidden] www.cushdrive.com www.luftwaffe-experten.com ICQ - 103134094 "Ah, the Luftwaffe.. The Washington Generals of The History Channel." Homer Simpson ************************************ "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:99ng68$70b$[email hidden]... > IMHO, that's the type of attitude that causes all the T1 crashes in online > racing. > It's better to back off and live to fight another day than push a risky > move. > >

More than one corner? No kidding! You think?? So, I should yield to every other racer on the track while in the corner, though I'm firmly placed in the racing line? And when I'm in last place, then what happens? And who knows how to race? YOU??????? ************************************ Dave Pawlikowski [email hidden] www.cushdrive.com www.luftwaffe-experten.com ICQ - 103134094 "Ah, the Luftwaffe.. The Washington Generals of The History Channel." Homer Simpson ************************************ > > > The race goes for n-many laps, not just one corner. I am sick and tiredof

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> guys that have to win the race in the first corner. So many VROC racers > know nothing about racecraft: picking your spot, looking for weaknesses, > forcing errors, etc. What you guys need is a NHRA sim, then you can leave > the corners to people who know how to race. > > --MikeE > >

So - I back off even though I have the line? I force him to go around me as we are side by side. And this makes me a bad guy? The other racer having to actually RACE for the position? Do some of you actually RACE on-line, or is it just one big band of gentlemen afraid to make a stand in a turn? When the corner comes along, is there lots of frantic typing " You first! " " Or no! You first! " " Oh I couldn't! You please! " If the nose of my car is at his rear quarter panel in the turn, I have no problem backing off. There is always time to get the position back. However, if I have the advantage of the low line and we are side by side or he is behind I'm keeping it to the floor. But, it seems this type of attitude is detrimental to racing. At least to a few here. ************************************ Dave Pawlikowski [email hidden] www.cushdrive.com www.luftwaffe-experten.com ICQ - 103134094 "Ah, the Luftwaffe.. The Washington Generals of The History Channel." Homer Simpson ************************************ "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:99ng68$70b$[email hidden]...

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> IMHO, that's the type of attitude that causes all the T1 crashes in online > racing. > It's better to back off and live to fight another day than push a risky > move. > > -- > Ian P > <email invalid due to spam> > > > Karaya One <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:x4Ev6.1370$[email hidden]... > > Exactly. > > > > Once I'm in the corner its mine. The only way he is getting it back is > > either by outrunning me on the outside or pushing me off the track. > > > > I have no intention of backing off each time he might want to pass me

and > > get into that turn first. I'm racing. > > > > > >

I race alright, it's just that I make sensible moves, not diving into the inside of another car to try and gain a place. I will follow through a corner and make a pass on the straight. If that's not possible I will make sure that I have a good run into the next corner and that the car I am overtaking knows that I am there and has plenty of time to react to me being there. Although from what you're saying, you're talking more about NASCAR type oval racing than road circuit racing, thats a totally different ball game because you can easily run at least two wide at most ovals -- Ian P <email invalid due to spam> Karaya One <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:PY8w6.2188$[email hidden]... > So - I back off even though I have the line? I force him to go around me as > we are side by side. And this makes me a bad guy? The other racer having to > actually RACE for the position? > > Do some of you actually RACE on-line, or is it just one big band of > gentlemen afraid to make a stand in a turn? > > When the corner comes along, is there lots of frantic typing " You first! " > " Or no! You first! " " Oh I couldn't! You please! " > > If the nose of my car is at his rear quarter panel in the turn, I have no > problem backing off. There is always time to get the position back. However, > if I have the advantage of the low line and we are side by side or he is > behind I'm keeping it to the floor. > > But, it seems this type of attitude is detrimental to racing. At least to a > few here. >

> Is this also true in Nascar? Are the rules any different on ovals? Yeah, Rules ? in NASCAR ? they don't even have a faint clue about rules in NASCAR !!!

> So, I should yield to every other racer on the track while in the corner, > though I'm firmly placed in the racing line? And when I'm in last place, > then what happens? >Why is it that you have to see this as a black or white issue? Nobody is suggesting that you yield to every driver that hints at passing you. The issue is about judgement... when to press and when not to press. Pressing a bad position into Eau Rouge or Masta is just stupid. On the other hand, you can have cars side-by-side through Curva Grande, if the drivers are aware and skillful. > And who knows how to race? YOU??????? >As a matter of fact... Yes. Methinks thou dost protest too much. --MikeE

Mike Eppel wrote:

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> > No, no, not at all! > > There are NO rules for overtaking in any form of motorsport, there is only > a > > gentlemanly conduct that drivers are supposed to follow. > > > Wrong! The "International Sporting Code", Appendix L, Chapter IV, Section 2 > is about "Overtaking". There are clear regulations regarding what a driver > may/may not do during overtaking. So, yes the ARE rules for overtaking. > > Everyone would be better served if you included an "AFAIK" in front of you > statements of pseudo-fact. > > > Rubbish. It's a race, if you can genuinely make an attempt then you are > > entitled to, weather you make it or not. > > The lead car does not have a right to take a tight line knowing you'll > > touch. > > > Its about physics, plain and simple. Two cars cannot occupy the same space > at the same time. Being able to reset your car gives sim racers false > courage. Change all the VROC servers to Pro damage and see what happens<g>. > > > As far as overtaking "rules" go, they are all in the imagination of > > Anti-Schumacher fans :-) > > > And FIA apparently.

The FIA really doesn't know much about racing, at least not if you look at the state of F1: drag race followed by a parade. That's one good thing about short track ovals: the FIA has 0 oversite of them. The *smart* racers tend to use those rules that the FIA has just because they make sense most of the time - the last few laps being the exception. I've heard a lot of smart racers (cyber and otherwise) use the quote "you can't win the race on the first lap, but you can certainly lose it". It's the reality that if you don't take care in passing, you'll wreck. If you wreck often enough, you'll eventually lose your ride. Just ask Robby Gordon. About the only way he's going to race is out of his own pocket.

Karaya One wrote:

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> So - I back off even though I have the line? I force him to go around me as > we are side by side. And this makes me a bad guy? The other racer having to > actually RACE for the position? > > Do some of you actually RACE on-line, or is it just one big band of > gentlemen afraid to make a stand in a turn? > > When the corner comes along, is there lots of frantic typing " You first! " > " Or no! You first! " " Oh I couldn't! You please! "

This kinda reminds me of a race in an online league I had a few years ago. A friend of mine (who incidently is my teamate - still) were racing at Phoenix and as we went into the final turn early in the race it was him and I and while I was under him and could have pushed my position, I elected not to - I didn't want to mess up my teamate's car (particularly since I'm the owner!). Well, he kept to the high line because he didn't want to tangle with *his* teammate either... So, after a moment's hesitation and the realization that the other guy was giving up the line - you guessed it! - we both accepted the other's offer. I managed not to destroy my teammate's car at the cost of my own. Some days it doesn't pay to be the nice guy.

"Mike Donnelly Jr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > This kinda reminds me of a race in an online league I had a few years ago.A > friend of mine (who incidently is my teamate - still) were racing atPhoenix and > as we went into the final turn early in the race it was him and I andwhile I > was under him and could have pushed my position, I elected not Dale Jarret did much the same several years ago in a Busch race. He had caught the leader with about 3 laps to go...a kid who had NEVER won before.. Jarret was a Daytona winner, a Winston Cup contender, and yet he stayed behind the fellow for the last laps with SEVERAL opportunities to spin him out of the way...(short track..Marty or Bristol??) dave henrie

Mike Eppel <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:99o3ab$n75$[email hidden]... > > No, no, not at all! > > There are NO rules for overtaking in any form of motorsport, there isonly > a > > gentlemanly conduct that drivers are supposed to follow. > > > Wrong! The "International Sporting Code", Appendix L, Chapter IV, Section2 > is about "Overtaking". There are clear regulations regarding what adriver > may/may not do during overtaking. So, yes the ARE rules for overtaking. > > Everyone would be better served if you included an "AFAIK" in front of you > statements of pseudo-fact. Doh! So there are... that'll teach me to skip over things. Anyhow, part of what I was saying still stands... people tend to decide on their own rules too much to suit their own driver. If a leading car doesn't leave room for an overtaking car I think he's in the wrong. If an overtaking car makes an attempt when the leading car is ahead earning he has already turned and a collision is imminent then it's his fault. That's just my own idea of things and it applies to every touch. Peoples views of the rules change from incident to incident to suit the driver they follow to much IMO.

Gerry Aitken <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > GraDee wrote: > > > It's only all common sense and chivalry. That's why I sort of defended > > Rubens in Melbourne. The TV shots showed he tried to back out (brokevery > > very hard to stop the car) when he realised he was too far back.Frentzen > > had the idea in his head that if he's ahead, he "owns" the corner, so he > > turned in much too sharply with a car to your inside, Rubens nose wasthere > > and bam, out goes Heinz. In fairness to Rubens he looked like he triedto > > back out but couldn't completely stop his car at that speed! Frentzentook a > > very tight racing line as if there wasn't a car in sight hoping that ifthey > > did touch he'd just blame Rubens as "he owned the corner". > > IMO you are talking utter rubbish, just my opinion of course. > > Gerry Ok, if that's your pinion, after reading your own in-depth explanation I how have seen overtaking in a new light :-)

Wosco <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:czVv6.11122$[email hidden]... > So a guy only has to get 1 inch ahead of your back end and it is hiscorner? > You have to WORK to pass someone, you can't just inch forward and expectto > have the apex. > Well that's where the confusion is made. I don't get this "owning a corner". You have to keep fighting, most of the time in F1 drivers just sort of give up or allow someone past after such a point as they'll get it anyway but that's off the topic. If a guy has an inch on your back wheel you don't let him past, no not at all. BUT! But if you turn in on him, you'll go out of the race and blame him. Its not That fair, you're moving into his space yet you blame him. You have to fight fight fight but if a guy even has an inch on you have to allow him his space, you do NOT have to let him past, IMO. They are two very different things IMHO.

Neil Raine <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:R7Nv6.50835$[email hidden]...

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> "GraDee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:99nu9b$lq8$[email hidden]... > > Co-incidentally this is the reason I like guys like Montoya and > Schumacher, > > if their on your inside and think they can make it, they'll race you and > go > > for it! It's racing afterall! > > And it's the same reason i don't like the style of someone like DC. "I

was > > 2mm ahead, I owned the corner, I had to right to turn in onhim"...etc...

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> > Rubbish! > > Oh come on, when did he last do that? > > In the last couple of seasons I reckon Coulthard has made some of the best > (only?) overtaking moves on the track. > > Two years ago he did manage to spin out his team-mate with a rather dumb > move, but since then he's been excellent in the overtaking department (if > not everywhere else...). > > It all started when he was accused of being "too nice", so he's now making > sure he overtakes whenever he can! >

heh hehe, I did exaggerate. But what I mean is that in the few of DC's overtaking manoeuvres he's touched people (i.e. Schumacehr) who resisted the overtaking manoeuvre. The French (Fish) Finger suggested he didn't approve of MS fighting back in a corner that was "his". I fairness though, I'm picking on DC, that's not fair in this situation.

GraDee wrote: > Ok, if that's your pinion, after reading your own in-depth explanation I > how have seen overtaking in a new light :-) RB had a brain-fart, how much more in-depth explanation is needed? I'm amazed you think Frentzen had time to check to see if someone was on collision course, what with him being a bit busy turning the corner at the time. BTW, he had to turn the corner at some point. RB came from SO far back with no hope of achieving his goal, that only a real novice observer would lay any blame AT ALL at HHF's door. Gerry PS. Please keep away from VROC.