gp3 physics

being not a 'bad' gpl driver (128.68) round monza. i thought i'd have a shufty at gp3. altho the graphics were disappointing on voodoo 3 , framerate was ok thanks to the duron 900. anyway i did a few laps on brazil, i remembered it quite well thanks to my good laps on the amiga f1gp back in the early 90s. anyway i found that i had something called steering help turned on, which i was pissed about cos i like to race it as its supposed to be, after i turned it off, i found that taking a corner which i feel wasn't overly quick the car just spun, it was like there was NO warning, i tried to correct as quick as i could but there was nothing there. is it really this hard to drive a gp car nowadays? or isn't it realistic ? any help/info would be cool, btw using default car setups

Don't know about anyone else, but after driving GPL and going to GP3 I thought the exact same thing. But after several hours of use, I did start to get a "feel" for the car and was able to "catch" it, most times anyway, before it took off on me. In my case, my ability to feel the car got better as my brain came up to speed on the very frantic pace of the sim. JMHO Mike

Yeah, takes a while to get used to... FF is more detailed than I first imagined. Brazil is a bad example as there's some quite nasty bumps in the corners there (e.g. Bico de Pato), which call for the rear to be noodled up somewhat (certainly from the default setup). You make a good point about the pace of driving being quite frantic. While I drive online GPL GP's *for relaxation*, I find GP3 races take a lot out of me (and I'm just driving 60% distance). Very hard to consistently stay ahead of the car. Jan. =--- http://topgear.dhs.org (quick plug <g>). Race1530 wrote...

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> Don't know about anyone else, but after driving GPL and going > to GP3 I thought the exact same thing. But after several hours > of use, I did start to get a "feel" for the car and was able to > "catch" it, most times anyway, before it took off on me. > In my case, my ability to feel the car got better as my brain > came up to speed on the very frantic pace of the sim. > > JMHO > Mike

whena car with wings goes, it tends to go. pez Race1530 <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Don't know about anyone else, but after driving GPL and going to GP3 Ithought > the exact same thing. But after several hours of use, I did start to geta > "feel" for the car and was able to "catch" it, most times anyway, beforeit > took off on me. > In my case, my ability to feel the car got better as my brain came up tospeed > on the very frantic pace of the sim. > > JMHO > Mike

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > ...... > Very hard to consistently stay ahead of the car. > > Jan. Try to stay IN the car Jan ;-) Bart

Hehehe... very clever. ;-) Jan. =--- PS.: just remembered I still need to do the scores for Solitude and Glen... scheduled. Bart Westra wrote...

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> <snip> > Try to stay IN the car Jan ;-) > > Bart > > > >

"Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> being not a 'bad' gpl driver (128.68) round monza. > > i thought i'd have a shufty at gp3. altho the graphics were > disappointing on voodoo 3 , framerate was ok thanks to the duron 900. > > anyway i did a few laps on brazil, i remembered it quite well thanks > to my good laps on the amiga f1gp back in the early 90s. > > anyway i found that i had something called steering help turned on, > which i was pissed about cos i like to race it as its supposed to be, > after i turned it off, i found that taking a corner which i feel > wasn't overly quick the car just spun, it was like there was NO > warning, i tried to correct as quick as i could but there was nothing > there. > > is it really this hard to drive a gp car nowadays? or isn't it > realistic ? > > any help/info would be cool, btw using default car setups

you must realise that current F1s effectively do not have suspension... pound that kerb and you'll bounce the car... if there's any power down when you bounce, chances are you'll spin. your driving line shouldn't be circular unless you're taking the corner at constant velocity. as you brake increase the wheel lock as you approach the apex (within reason, you shouldn't get too much rear end movement), and ease it off as the power is fed in... with practice you'll get a feel for how much. before long you should easily be able to place the car onto the ripple strips going in and coming out. on fast corners there is some margin for error... you'll generally feel the front pushing long before the rear gets loose.... just ease back on the wheel lock and/or throttle.. it doesn't take much to reel the car back in.... of course, a big slide and you're gone.... when you're doing that many g's round a corner and the traction really lets go, there's not much you can do. KK

In article <JugE6.5732$[email hidden]>, "Kasper Kowalski" <[email hidden]> writes: >your driving line shouldn't be circular unless you're taking the corner at >constant velocity. as you brake increase the wheel lock as you approach the >apex (within reason, you shouldn't get too much rear end movement), and ease >it off as the power is fed in... with practice you'll get a feel for how >much. before long you should easily be able to place the car onto the ripple >strips going in and coming out. "your driving line shouldn't be circular"...? Ok, I give up - what does that mean? Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +28.67...F2 +151.26... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <JugE6.5732$[email hidden]>, "Kasper Kowalski" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >your driving line shouldn't be circular unless you're taking the cornerat > >constant velocity. as you brake increase the wheel lock as you approachthe > >apex (within reason, you shouldn't get too much rear end movement), andease > >it off as the power is fed in... with practice you'll get a feel for how > >much. before long you should easily be able to place the car onto theripple > >strips going in and coming out. > > "your driving line shouldn't be circular"...? Ok, I give up - what doesthat > mean? your turn radius is directly proportional to your cornering velocity.... as you increase speed coming out of a turn you need to decrease your wheel lock to be able to get all the power to the road, and not spin the wheels..... look at the way the drivers typically take a hairpin, they drive almost to the outside of the track going in so that they have as straight an exit as possible (crucial when you're trying to use all the engines power and don't have much downforce at the lower speed). KK

EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <JugE6.5732$[email hidden]>, "Kasper Kowalski" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >your driving line shouldn't be circular unless you're taking the cornerat > >constant velocity. as you brake increase the wheel lock as you approachthe > >apex (within reason, you shouldn't get too much rear end movement), andease > >it off as the power is fed in... with practice you'll get a feel for how > >much. before long you should easily be able to place the car onto theripple > >strips going in and coming out. > > "your driving line shouldn't be circular"...? Ok, I give up - what doesthat > mean? I think he's talking about making the apex the tightest part of the corner thus getting higher entry and exit speeds, as opposed to trying to find the largest constant radius through the corner. Does that help? ;-) Jonny

"Jonny Hodgson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > I think he's talking about making the apex the tightest part of the corner > thus > getting higher entry and exit speeds, as opposed to trying to find the > largest > constant radius through the corner. > > Does that help? ;-)

spot on :) i thought i'd leave out the bit about the friction circle :o KK

In article <QDsE6.5984$[email hidden]>, "Kasper Kowalski" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>> "your driving line shouldn't be circular"...? Ok, I give up - what does >that >> mean? > >your turn radius is directly proportional to your cornering velocity.... as >you increase speed coming out of a turn you need to decrease your wheel lock >to be able to get all the power to the road, and not spin the wheels..... >look at the way the drivers typically take a hairpin, they drive almost to >the outside of the track going in so that they have as straight an exit as >possible (crucial when you're trying to use all the engines power and don't >have much downforce at the lower speed). >

I seem to always end up turning the wheel MORE at the turn exit, just to stay on the track. There's a flaw in my driving style that I can't seem to fix. Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +28.67...F2 +151.26... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > I seem to always end up turning the wheel MORE at the turn exit, just tostay > on the track. There's a flaw in my driving style that I can't seem tofix. most probably because you're carrying a little too much mid-corner speed.... i'm normaly quite slow at mid-corner, usually two wheels on the inside kerb to buy myself as much exit space as possible. it has the added benefit of forcing the guy chasing to slow down, then you get the jump coming out and don't have to worry too much about him getting a tow and taking the place back. KK

>"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote > I seem to always end up turning the wheel MORE at the turn exit, just tostay > on the track. There's a flaw in my driving style that I can't seem tofix. Ouch I understand that problem. Too much speed or a too early apex is often the cause. You could in GPL tweak with the clutches, or to loosen up the car. It's something we learn much on Stockcars, from N1 to N4. Try to have the wheel straight as soon as possible exiting a corner. At tracks like Dover, the effect is essential for a fast car. The mid-corner portion is quite long, so you have to modulate the throttle to find the best moment to straighten the wheel. The guy who is fastest on the track is the one who has the wheel straight more then anybody else!!!!! -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

In article <W9NE6.714059$[email hidden]>, "ymenard" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>>"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote >> I seem to always end up turning the wheel MORE at the turn exit, just to >stay >> on the track. There's a flaw in my driving style that I can't seem to >fix. > > >Ouch I understand that problem. Too much speed or a too early apex is often >the cause. You could in GPL tweak with the clutches, or to loosen up the >car. It's something we learn much on Stockcars, from N1 to N4. Try to have >the wheel straight as soon as possible exiting a corner. At tracks like >Dover, the effect is essential for a fast car. The mid-corner portion is >quite long, so you have to modulate the throttle to find the best moment to >straighten the wheel.

Probably a little of both. I've been 'conditioned' to believe that I have to get through the corner as fast as possible. Well, fast implies using the accelerator. So I end up stomping the gas as soon as I make the turn-in(which is usually early). In looking back, I can see this style has followed me through N1 and ICR1 forward. It's so ingrained now(I guess) that I don't know how to break the habit. Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +28.67...F2 +151.26... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On 23 Apr 2001 20:00:12 GMT, EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote: >Probably a little of both. I've been 'conditioned' to believe that I have to >get through the corner as fast as possible. Well, fast implies using the Depends on the corner: what counts (also depending on the bit of track following the corner) is exit speed. Run, don't walk to amazon.com and order your copy of "Going Faster" by a certain Mr. Lopez. It's the best book I've read so far on driving technique (funny as hell in parts, too ;-) and it gained me at least a second on all the non-nuerburging tracks. >accelerator. So I end up stomping the gas as soon as I make the turn-in(which >is usually early). In looking back, I can see this style has followed me Do not stomp the gas. Transition from neutral to full throttle should take one to two seconds at least, again depending on the corner. >through N1 and ICR1 forward. It's so ingrained now(I guess) that I don't know >how to break the habit. > Cheers, Uwe -- Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) Ever wondered what's wrong with the world? http://bnetwork.com/ PGP Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

"Uwe Schuerkamp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Depends on the corner: what counts (also depending on the bit > of track following the corner) is exit speed. Run, don't walk > to amazon.com and order your copy of "Going Faster" by a > certain Mr. Lopez. It's the best book I've read so far on > driving technique (funny as hell in parts, too ;-) and it > gained me at least a second on all the non-nuerburging tracks. better yet.. read the gp3 manual and get your head around the friction circle (F1 racing also did an article on this a year or two ago)... once you understand that, you really get a feel for the relationship between throttle/brake and steering input.. and getting the most from the cars grip. KK

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Uwe Schuerkamp) writes:

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>On 23 Apr 2001 20:00:12 GMT, EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote: > >>Probably a little of both. I've been 'conditioned' to believe that I have >to >>get through the corner as fast as possible. Well, fast implies using the > >Depends on the corner: what counts (also depending on the bit >of track following the corner) is exit speed. Run, don't walk >to amazon.com and order your copy of "Going Faster" by a >certain Mr. Lopez. It's the best book I've read so far on >driving technique (funny as hell in parts, too ;-) and it >gained me at least a second on all the non-nuerburging tracks. >

Yeah, I read that on the plane to Laguna Seca last year. Very interesting and cool to read, but it hasn't helped yet.

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>>accelerator. So I end up stomping the gas as soon as I make the >turn-in(which >>is usually early). In looking back, I can see this style has followed me > >Do not stomp the gas. Transition from neutral to full throttle >should take one to two seconds at least, again depending on the >corner.

Two seconds? That's an ETERNITY... Meanwhile, everyone else is rocketing away... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +27.07...F2 +151.26... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On 02 May 2001 16:01:12 GMT, EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote: > >Two seconds? That's an ETERNITY... Meanwhile, everyone else is rocketing >away... > >Eldred Well, I'm might be rocketting away from you, but I take 1-2 secs to go from neutral to full, so it must work ;-) uwe -- Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) Ever wondered what's wrong with the world? http://bnetwork.com/ PGP Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Uwe Schuerkamp) writes:

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>On 02 May 2001 16:01:12 GMT, EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote: >> >>Two seconds? That's an ETERNITY... Meanwhile, everyone else is rocketing >>away... >> >>Eldred > >Well, I'm might be rocketting away from you, but I take 1-2 >secs to go from neutral to full, so it must work ;-)

Again, this makes no sense. How can you take LONGER to get back on the gas, but pull away faster?!? Ugh, I'm gettin' a headache...<g> Eldred - glad he doesn't have to run the Rouen Screamers race...<g> -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +25.37...F2 +151.26... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EldredP wrote... > <snip> > Again, this makes no sense. How can you take LONGER to get back > on the gas, but pull away faster?!? Ugh, I'm gettin' a headache...<g> > > Eldred - glad he doesn't have to run the Rouen Screamers race...<g> > -- I think it's a mistake to think Uwe gets on the gas "later". On the contrary, if one "jumps" on the gas one has to "get on it" later. I.e. 10-1 Uwe gets on the gas sooner than you and, because he applies it smoother, doesn't get wheelspin and is moving a couple mph faster when he gets to full throttle (which might be at the same time you do or even sooner depending on the layout of the turn), then continues to build on that advantage throuh the exit and down the next straight. Jan. =---- "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn.

Jan Verschueren wrote:

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> > I think it's a mistake to think Uwe gets on the gas "later". On the > contrary, if one "jumps" on the gas one has to "get on it" later. I.e. 10-1 > Uwe gets on the gas sooner than you and, because he applies it smoother, > doesn't get wheelspin and is moving a couple mph faster when he gets to full > throttle (which might be at the same time you do or even sooner depending on > the layout of the turn), then continues to build on that advantage throuh > the exit and down the next straight. > > Jan. > =---- > "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn.

Also, he could be coming onto the throttle later, but that enables him to carry much more speed through the corner, and that's exactly what works best in some corners. The problem is, you sacrifice much more lateral grip than you gain in longitudinal acceleration when you go to full throttle since only two wheels are driven and the fronts must carry very little lateral force when the rears are at full power in a low gear. -Gregor

In article <[email hidden]>, Gregor Veble <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Jan Verschueren wrote: >> >> I think it's a mistake to think Uwe gets on the gas "later". On the >> contrary, if one "jumps" on the gas one has to "get on it" later. I.e. 10-1 >> Uwe gets on the gas sooner than you and, because he applies it smoother, >> doesn't get wheelspin and is moving a couple mph faster when he gets to >full >> throttle (which might be at the same time you do or even sooner depending >on >> the layout of the turn), then continues to build on that advantage throuh >> the exit and down the next straight. >> >> Jan. >> =---- >> "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn. > >Also, he could be coming onto the throttle later, but that enables him >to carry much more speed through the corner, and that's exactly what >works best in some corners. The problem is, you sacrifice much more >lateral grip than you gain in longitudinal acceleration when you go to >full throttle since only two wheels are driven and the fronts must carry >very little lateral force when the rears are at full power in a low >gear.

It's probably the higher cornering speed. People can go faster in the turns faster than I can' even if I'm right on their bumper(meaning driving the same line). I've had drivers lap me in league races, and they checked out before I could even observe their driving enough to help me. Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +25.37...F2 +151.26... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

You know, if that is the case, it sounds to me like an understeering setup. Perhaps you should try experimenting with something that is fairly neutral in the middle of the turn and sacrifice it for some oversteer on the exit, although one can be surprised how well presumably oversteering setups can behave on exits if one applies the throttle smoothly! I'd start with opening the diff on the coast side. -Gregor EldredP wrote:

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> > > It's probably the higher cornering speed. People can go faster in the turns > faster than I can' even if I'm right on their bumper(meaning driving the same > line). I've had drivers lap me in league races, and they checked out before I > could even observe their driving enough to help me. > > Eldred

In article <[email hidden]>, Gregor Veble <[email hidden]> writes:

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>You know, if that is the case, it sounds to me like an understeering >setup. Perhaps you should try experimenting with something that is >fairly neutral in the middle of the turn and sacrifice it for some >oversteer on the exit, although one can be surprised how well presumably >oversteering setups can behave on exits if one applies the throttle >smoothly! > >I'd start with opening the diff on the coast side. > >-Gregor > >EldredP wrote: > >> >> >> It's probably the higher cornering speed. People can go faster in the >turns >> faster than I can' even if I'm right on their bumper(meaning driving the >same >> line). I've had drivers lap me in league races, and they checked out >before I >> could even observe their driving enough to help me. >> >> Eldred

Unfortunately, I don't have any setup skill. You might as well have posted your suggestion in Chinese - I would have understood it about the same... :) Are Alison's settings usually understeering? Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +25.37...F2 +151.26... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Eldred....surely you should be nearer to - rank by now....? Morgan Boof

Depends on what you set your steer lock too.. <g> | Are Alison's settings usually understeering? | Eldred

In article <8CzL6.659$[email hidden]>, "Morgan Boof" <[email hidden]> writes: >Eldred....surely you should be nearer to - rank by now....? Nearer is only that - nearer. If I dropped .01 second, that would be nearer. It wouldn't really help me, though<G> Still at about +25 seconds - I have a long way to go... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +25.37...F2 +151.26... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <%VBL6.483$[email hidden]>, "Thom j." <[email hidden]> writes: >Depends on what you set your steer lock too.. <g> > >| Are Alison's settings usually understeering? >| Eldred Usually 17+... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +25.37...F2 +151.26... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Hey Eldred, Alison's settings seem to be actually very nice to drive (esp. her Ferrari ones), so perhaps it's not an understeering setup. But, just to see, what is the differential setting? I find that for me 1 clutch with a 60/60 works about the best in a Ferrari, as the car doesn't resist turning in that way. -Gregor EldredP wrote:

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> > Unfortunately, I don't have any setup skill. You might as well have posted > your suggestion in Chinese - I would have understood it about the same... :) > Are Alison's settings usually understeering? > > Eldred > -- > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > F1 hcp. +25.37...F2 +151.26... > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, Gregor Veble <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Hey Eldred, > >Alison's settings seem to be actually very nice to drive (esp. her >Ferrari ones), so perhaps it's not an understeering setup. But, just to >see, what is the differential setting? I find that for me 1 clutch with >a 60/60 works about the best in a Ferrari, as the car doesn't resist >turning in that way. > >-Gregor

I don't remember. I'll have to check... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +25.37...F2 +151.26... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

writes: I don't remember. I'll have to check... Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +25.37...F2 +151.26... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (EldredP) writes:

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>In article <[email hidden]>, Gregor Veble ><[email hidden]> >writes: > >>Hey Eldred, >> >>Alison's settings seem to be actually very nice to drive (esp. her >>Ferrari ones), so perhaps it's not an understeering setup. But, just to >>see, what is the differential setting? I find that for me 1 clutch with >>a 60/60 works about the best in a Ferrari, as the car doesn't resist >>turning in that way. >> >>-Gregor > >I don't remember. I'll have to check... >

Ok - keep in mind I don't know what this crap means... Mosport/Kyalami: ramp: 85/30 diff: 9/31 clutches: 4 Silverstone/Zandvoort: ramp 85/30 diff 8/31 clutches 4 Mexico: ramp 85/30 diff 8/31 clutches 4 All from Alison's Ferrari setups. Does that mean anything to you? Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +25.37...F2 +151.26... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Hi Eldred, sure does mean a lot! I never knew Alison put so much coast side locking into her diff. The 85/30 ramp angle is the default in GPL setups, and is really the easist but not the fastest to drive. The first ramp angle number represents the locking power of the differential on applied throttle, and the second one on throttle released (coast). The higher the number, the lower the locking. The higher number of clutches also increases the locking of the wheels. The diff number is just the gear ratioo fht differential and is not important for this discussion. Basically, on the coast side you don't want much locking at all, as in a corner situation with throttle idle in a locking case both rear wheels will get some stabilizing torque in the longitudinal direction, and invariably this will produce some midturn understeer. On the other hand, a low ramp angle (high locking) on the coast side will help stabilize the car under braking and turn-in. If you are doing a lot of trail braking, then you will want to have more locking on the coast side (second number) as it will help stabilize the car and you will compensate for any midturn understeer by staying on the brakes and transitioning immediately to the throttle (I'm not talking about simultaneous application of throttle and brake here, but braking deep into the corner). Then, the setup as you've given it is pretty much what you want. I, however, prefer to not do that much trailbraking in GPL (in Nascar 4, however, this is much, much easier to do and I use it there), as it really tends to upset the car and with my level of skill I find it (mildly) efficient only for hotlapping. Therefore, I prefer use a higher coast side number, and this introduces drifting with neutral throttle that wasn't quite possible before. I suggest you start with an 85/60 differential with 4 clutches (i.e. only alter the coast ramp number), especially in a place like Zandvoort where there is a lot of sweeping turns. What you will need to alter simultaneously will be the rear anti roll bar, decrease this setting until additional oversteer thbat was introduced by the differential is compensated for. You might find cars extremely responsive on turn in, but don't dismiss the setup just yet, as with altering your driving style just a little bit by trying not to turn in before the entire braking is almost done, and transitioning to the throttle immediately afterwards, you should find the sweeps of Zandvoort much more pleasant and easy to handle. I hope this is of some use, -Gregor EldredP wrote:

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> > Ok - keep in mind I don't know what this crap means... > Mosport/Kyalami: > ramp: 85/30 > diff: 9/31 > clutches: 4 > > Silverstone/Zandvoort: > ramp 85/30 > diff 8/31 > clutches 4 > > Mexico: > ramp 85/30 > diff 8/31 > clutches 4 > > All from Alison's Ferrari setups. Does that mean anything to you? > > Eldred > -- > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > F1 hcp. +25.37...F2 +151.26... > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On 13 May 2001 15:09:22 GMT, EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>In article <[email hidden]>, Gregor Veble <[email hidden]> >writes: >Unfortunately, I don't have any setup skill. You might as well have posted >your suggestion in Chinese - I would have understood it about the same... :) >Are Alison's settings usually understeering? > >Eldred

I cannot believe it... the augurs of RAS discussing my driving technique! thanks ;-) Eldred, have you tried Roland Ehnstroehms (sp?) setups? I find them very balanced and great to drive for any chassis he's cared to release setups for. I usually take front roll bar down a notch, and the car works beautifully. cheers, uwe -- Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) Ever wondered what's wrong with the world? http://bnetwork.com/ PGP Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

Great input Gregor!! I learned alot!! Thank you! Thom_j. "Gregor Veble" wrote: | Hi Eldred,<snipped for space>

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Uwe Schuerkamp) writes: >Eldred, have you tried Roland Ehnstroehms (sp?) setups? I find >them very balanced and great to drive for any chassis he's >cared to release setups for. I usually take front roll bar down >a notch, and the car works beautifully. Yes, I've tried his setups before. I can't remember for which track, though. I'm thinking that my Ferrari PB for Spa was using his... I've never tried changing any of the settings, except for steering lock. I'll have to see if I can find the setups again. Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +25.37...F2 +151.26... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, Gregor Veble <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Hi Eldred, > >sure does mean a lot! I never knew Alison put so much coast side locking >into her diff. > >If you are doing a lot of trail braking, then you will want to have more >locking on the coast side (second number) as it will help stabilize the >car and you will compensate for any midturn understeer by staying on the >brakes and transitioning immediately to the throttle (I'm not talking >about simultaneous application of throttle and brake here, but braking >deep into the corner). Then, the setup as you've given it is pretty much >what you want. >

Actually, I *don't* do much trailbraking. The only time I'm on the brakes deep into a corner is when I've screwed up and hit it way too fast...

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>I, however, prefer to not do that much trailbraking in GPL (in Nascar 4, >however, this is much, much easier to do and I use it there), as it >really tends to upset the car and with my level of skill I find it >(mildly) efficient only for hotlapping. Therefore, I prefer use a higher >coast side number, and this introduces drifting with neutral throttle >that wasn't quite possible before. > >I suggest you start with an 85/60 differential with 4 clutches (i.e. >only alter the coast ramp number), especially in a place like Zandvoort >where there is a lot of sweeping turns. What you will need to alter >simultaneously will be the rear anti roll bar, decrease this setting >until additional oversteer thbat was introduced by the differential is >compensated for. > >You might find cars extremely responsive on turn in, but don't dismiss >the setup just yet, as with altering your driving style just a little >bit by trying not to turn in before the entire braking is almost done, >and transitioning to the throttle immediately afterwards, you should >find the sweeps of Zandvoort much more pleasant and easy to handle.

Well, I'm going to print this out to study until I understand it. I should finish by sometime next week...<g> You said Alison's settings are easy, but not the fastest. If I change the differential to a higher number, that means the car will become more tail-happy, correct? I've heard that the fastest car is a loose one, but I've never heard why. Response?<g> Thanks, Gregor. Eldred -- Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett F1 hcp. +25.37...F2 +151.26... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message I've heard that the fastest car > is a loose one, but I've never heard why. Response?<g> > Thanks, Gregor. > > Eldred The reason is simple....because the UNIVERSE knew clutz's like me couldn't keep up with a loose car....ergo... I'm doooommmmed to be a slug. dave henrie

I just found this out at the ring Eldred! Wow it was too loose for me!! "EldredP" wrote:

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| Gregor Veble writes: | >I suggest you start with an 85/60 differential with 4 clutches (i.e. | >only alter the coast ramp number), especially in a place like Zandvoort | >where there is a lot of sweeping turns. What you will need to alter | >simultaneously will be the rear anti roll bar, decrease this setting | >until additional oversteer thbat was introduced by the differential is | >compensated for. | > | Well, I'm going to print this out to study until I understand it. I

should | finish by sometime next week...<g> You said Alison's settings are easy,but | not the fastest. If I change the differential to a higher number, thatmeans | the car will become more tail-happy, correct? I've heard that the fastestcar | is a loose one, but I've never heard why. Response?<g> | Thanks, Gregor. | | Eldred

Hi Eldred, actually, I would say Alison's setups are easy and rather fast in a racing condition, they're just not what I would call hotlapping material, and to my knowledge this was not their intent in the first place. For racing, the most important thing is that the car is responsive (i.e. you can easily go from under- to oversteer and the opposite at demand), speed comes naturally from that. Actually, the fastest car is the neutral car. If the car is either oversteering or understeering badly, it means that one corner of a car lost its optimal grip, while the other is still not achieving its full potential, so the total force produced is lower than it would be if the point of optimal grip is simultaneously reached both front and rear. Unfortunately, the above situation is very much idealized, and the ballance changes with applications of throttle and brake, so a neutral car will find itself oversteering at some points on the circuit and understeering at other ones. Since the oversteering condition is an unstable one, whenever you provoke tha car too badly you loose the car, and a generally neutral setup can be labeled as an oversteering one quickly when it actually isn't. Therefore you are striving for a very neutral car, one which, at neutral (not idle!) throttle drifts nicely through a corner. Such a car can easily be tailored to either produce an oversteer or understeer by an application of throttle. Since oversteer can quickly lead to a spin, you err on the side of caution by indroducing a bit of understeer to leave some margin for driver error, however, as close to a neutral setup you can come to be able to control it, the faster you will be. That's probably where the answer to your question is. -Gregor P.S.: about the differential; yes, a higher number means more oversteer. With higher settings on the coast side, the car is much more responsive on lift off, and this is good to set the initial attitude of the car for a corner, and, if the setup is good, you need to apply about neutral throttle when going of the apex (see the neutral car definition), zero throttle will provoke oversteer. It takes a while to get used to, at least it did for me, but after I came to grips with it (bad pun, bad pun!) it was the first time I felt that I am not fighting the car in GPL. EldredP wrote:

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> > Well, I'm going to print this out to study until I understand it. I should > finish by sometime next week...<g> You said Alison's settings are easy, but > not the fastest. If I change the differential to a higher number, that means > the car will become more tail-happy, correct? I've heard that the fastest car > is a loose one, but I've never heard why. Response?<g> > Thanks, Gregor. > > Eldred > -- > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > F1 hcp. +25.37...F2 +151.26... > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.