Thanks Papy for fixing FFB

You don't say anything about FFB (Ferrari wheel in my case) in the readme, but fixed it is. Huge improvement over 1.0. Thanks! For those of you unaware of the problems, it was very weak and would tend to lots of spurious quakes and motions. Others reported that it would conk out completely, though I never had that happen. Marc. -- **************************************************************************** Marc Collins [email hidden] Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect. Reboot now? ****************************************************************************

Ooops, I spoke too soon. The quaking/shaking is still there occasionally, although the general feedback is better--almost like it is being polled more frequently than before. Marc. "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:LxHG6.731148$[email hidden]... > You don't say anything about FFB (Ferrari wheel in my case) in the readme, > but fixed it is. Huge improvement over 1.0. Thanks! > > For those of you unaware of the problems, it was very weak and would tendto > lots of spurious quakes and motions. Others reported that it would conkout > completely, though I never had that happen. > > Marc. > > -- >**************************************************************************** > Marc Collins > [email hidden] > > Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change > to take effect. Reboot now? >**************************************************************************** > > >

Unfortunately, I haven't noticed any changes. Talladega still feels like I'm driving a 1966 Chrysler Town & Country Station Wagon. Anyone who has driven one of these knows what 'light steering' feels like :) -Larry "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Gr4H6.653281$[email hidden]... > Ooops, I spoke too soon. The quaking/shaking is still there occasionally, > although the general feedback is better--almost like it is being polledmore

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> frequently than before. > > Marc. > > "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:LxHG6.731148$[email hidden]... > > You don't say anything about FFB (Ferrari wheel in my case) in the

readme, > > but fixed it is. Huge improvement over 1.0. Thanks! > > > > For those of you unaware of the problems, it was very weak and wouldtend

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> to > > lots of spurious quakes and motions. Others reported that it would conk > out > > completely, though I never had that happen. > > > > Marc. > > > > -- > > >

****************************************************************************

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> > Marc Collins > > [email hidden] > > > > Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change > > to take effect. Reboot now? > > >

**************************************************************************** > > > > > > > >

"Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:qGeH6.46157$[email hidden]... > Unfortunately, I haven't noticed any changes. > > Talladega still feels like I'm driving a 1966 Chrysler Town & Country > Station Wagon. > > Anyone who has driven one of these knows what 'light steering' feels like:) > > -Larry Hi Larry I notice the same thing as you at Daytona and Tally. Try this, turn the latency in the FFB option up and/or turn the steering ratio in your set-up down, I found that these help a lot. The down sides though are that turning up the latency causes controller spiking so experiment until you find a happy medium, also any new setting you arrive at for Daytona and Tally will be undrivable on the other tracks, I start to get spiking with my MSFF after about 125ms, and turning the steering ratio down makes the steering quicker so you have to use a lighter touch with the wheel. Mark

Mark, I have experimented with the Latency, and you're right. It does help. I can't see myself changing the ratio, though. I already feel like it needs to be raised to 45:1. It's way, way more sensitive than it ever was at setting 5 in Nascar Racing <4. I was really hoping for that in the patch, but didn't get it :( Does anyone know of a way, maybe in DirectX, to kill off the steering sensitivity _before_ it gets to N4 ? I always felt that Papy's SIMS had the best controller code going. Unfortunately, I feel they have taken a huge step backwards in N4. Thanks for the idea! -Larry "Mark Aisthorpe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:KzjH6.24696$HH6.54837@news2-hme0...

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> > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:qGeH6.46157$[email hidden]... > > Unfortunately, I haven't noticed any changes. > > > > Talladega still feels like I'm driving a 1966 Chrysler Town & Country > > Station Wagon. > > > > Anyone who has driven one of these knows what 'light steering' feels

like

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> :) > > > > -Larry > > Hi Larry > > I notice the same thing as you at Daytona and Tally. > Try this, turn the latency in the FFB option up and/or turn the steering > ratio in your set-up down, I found that these help a lot. The down sides > though are that turning up the latency causes controller spiking so > experiment until you find a happy medium, also any new setting you arrive

at > for Daytona and Tally will be undrivable on the other tracks, I start toget > spiking with my MSFF after about 125ms, and turning the steering ratiodown

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> makes the steering quicker so you have to use a lighter touch with the > wheel. > > Mark > > >

FWIW & My 2cents, When I first got my FFB wheel I felt that most of my sim racing steer "lock" had to be dropped! I have always raced with a low lock from World Circuit Racing by Micoprose {without FFB} and nothing has changed with FFB except I have dropped down further! In ICR2 I used a 14:1 to 12:1 and GPL I used the same but when I got my FFB wheel I dropped it more! For me the super light touch is the only' way to go! But many drive differently and I can see how many want the higher steer lock.. The lower 'lock' has always let me acquire faster lap times and with the FFB it is even better! Especially in N4! To be honest for a long time I thought everyone used at least a 14:1 lock in all sims...duh!!! Soon I found out otherwise. "O" Well different strokes for different folks..eh??? Happy Racing.. Cheers Thom_j. P.S. Gee I never messed with the latency setting before. I wonder if I could 'squezze' another sec or 2 from Dega & Tona? Hmmm? "Mark Aisthorpe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:KzjH6.24696$HH6.54837@news2-hme0...

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| | "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message | news:qGeH6.46157$[email hidden]... | > Unfortunately, I haven't noticed any changes. | > | > Talladega still feels like I'm driving a 1966 Chrysler Town & Country | > Station Wagon. | > | > Anyone who has driven one of these knows what 'light steering' feels

like

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| :) | > | > -Larry | | Hi Larry | | I notice the same thing as you at Daytona and Tally. | Try this, turn the latency in the FFB option up and/or turn the steering | ratio in your set-up down, I found that these help a lot. The down sides | though are that turning up the latency causes controller spiking so | experiment until you find a happy medium, also any new setting you arrive

at | for Daytona and Tally will be undrivable on the other tracks, I start toget | spiking with my MSFF after about 125ms, and turning the steering ratiodown

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| makes the steering quicker so you have to use a lighter touch with the | wheel. | | Mark | | |

& FWIW <g> This is really odd Larry...lol.. Read my other post and you will see the lower the better for me and you prefer higher.. Much! Higher! Wow!! I barely move my wheel in N4 2"s {either way} from top dead center at any given time and I prefer less! It just goes to show ya' that is why they make Vanilla, Chocolate & Strawberry Ice Cream.. hahaha!!! Cheers Thom_j. "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:SfkH6.47695$[email hidden]... | Mark, | | I have experimented with the Latency, and you're right. It does help. | | I can't see myself changing the ratio, though. I already feel like itneeds

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| to be raised to 45:1. It's way, way more sensitive than it ever was at | setting 5 in Nascar Racing <4. | | I was really hoping for that in the patch, but didn't get it :( | | Does anyone know of a way, maybe in DirectX, to kill off the steering | sensitivity _before_ it gets to N4 ? | | I always felt that Papy's SIMS had the best controller code going. | Unfortunately, I feel they have taken a huge step backwards in N4. | | Thanks for the idea! | | -Larry | "Mark Aisthorpe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message | news:KzjH6.24696$HH6.54837@news2-hme0... | > | > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message | > news:qGeH6.46157$[email hidden]... | > > Unfortunately, I haven't noticed any changes. | > > | > > Talladega still feels like I'm driving a 1966 Chrysler Town & Country | > > Station Wagon. | > > | > > Anyone who has driven one of these knows what 'light steering' feels | like | > :) | > > | > > -Larry | > | > Hi Larry | > | > I notice the same thing as you at Daytona and Tally. | > Try this, turn the latency in the FFB option up and/or turn the steering | > ratio in your set-up down, I found that these help a lot. The down sides | > though are that turning up the latency causes controller spiking so | > experiment until you find a happy medium, also any new setting you

arrive

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| at | > for Daytona and Tally will be undrivable on the other tracks, I start to | get | > spiking with my MSFF after about 125ms, and turning the steering ratio | down | > makes the steering quicker so you have to use a lighter touch with the | > wheel. | > | > Mark | > | > | > | |

I think the force effects in N4 are perfect! I use the Act labs force rs. Yiou guys having problem ...have yall tried adjusting the castor settings in the setup. More positive caster wil give you a heavier wheel. I can even feel a diference as to how much air is in the tires! "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:dkkH6.39883$[email hidden]...

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> FWIW & My 2cents, > When I first got my FFB wheel I felt that most of my sim racing steer > "lock" had to be dropped! I have always raced with a low lock from > World Circuit Racing by Micoprose {without FFB} and nothing has > changed with FFB except I have dropped down further! > In ICR2 I used a 14:1 to 12:1 and GPL I used the same but when I > got my FFB wheel I dropped it more! For me the super light touch > is the only' way to go! But many drive differently and I can see how > many want the higher steer lock.. > The lower 'lock' has always let me acquire faster lap times and with > the FFB it is even better! Especially in N4! To be honest for a long > time I thought everyone used at least a 14:1 lock in all sims...duh!!! > Soon I found out otherwise. "O" Well different strokes for different > folks..eh??? Happy Racing.. > Cheers Thom_j. > P.S. Gee I never messed with the latency setting before. I wonder > if I could 'squezze' another sec or 2 from Dega & Tona? Hmmm? > > "Mark Aisthorpe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:KzjH6.24696$HH6.54837@news2-hme0... > | > | "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > | news:qGeH6.46157$[email hidden]... > | > Unfortunately, I haven't noticed any changes. > | > > | > Talladega still feels like I'm driving a 1966 Chrysler Town & Country > | > Station Wagon. > | > > | > Anyone who has driven one of these knows what 'light steering' feels > like > | :) > | > > | > -Larry > | > | Hi Larry > | > | I notice the same thing as you at Daytona and Tally. > | Try this, turn the latency in the FFB option up and/or turn the steering > | ratio in your set-up down, I found that these help a lot. The down sides > | though are that turning up the latency causes controller spiking so > | experiment until you find a happy medium, also any new setting you

arrive

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> at > | for Daytona and Tally will be undrivable on the other tracks, I start to > get > | spiking with my MSFF after about 125ms, and turning the steering ratio > down > | makes the steering quicker so you have to use a lighter touch with the > | wheel. > | > | Mark > | > | > | > > >

Some of us try to use the amount of castor that optimises the speed and set-up of the car. Why would anyone want to adjust it just so that you can get appropriate FFB? Shouldn't Papy design the FFB to work with all set-ups and tracks? Does a real car steering wheel lose all the feedback with a castor adjustment? It should feel different with the castor adjustment, not make the difference of being there or not there. Marc. "Ronnie Bigwhip" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:_uoH6.4433$[email hidden]... > I think the force effects in N4 are perfect! I use the Act labs force rs. > Yiou guys having problem ...have yall tried adjusting the castor settingsin

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> the setup. More positive caster wil give you a heavier wheel. I can even > feel a diference as to how much air is in the tires! > > > "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:dkkH6.39883$[email hidden]... > > FWIW & My 2cents, > > When I first got my FFB wheel I felt that most of my sim racing steer > > "lock" had to be dropped! I have always raced with a low lock from > > World Circuit Racing by Micoprose {without FFB} and nothing has > > changed with FFB except I have dropped down further! > > In ICR2 I used a 14:1 to 12:1 and GPL I used the same but when I > > got my FFB wheel I dropped it more! For me the super light touch > > is the only' way to go! But many drive differently and I can see how > > many want the higher steer lock.. > > The lower 'lock' has always let me acquire faster lap times and with > > the FFB it is even better! Especially in N4! To be honest for a long > > time I thought everyone used at least a 14:1 lock in all sims...duh!!! > > Soon I found out otherwise. "O" Well different strokes for different > > folks..eh??? Happy Racing.. > > Cheers Thom_j. > > P.S. Gee I never messed with the latency setting before. I wonder > > if I could 'squezze' another sec or 2 from Dega & Tona? Hmmm? > > > > "Mark Aisthorpe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:KzjH6.24696$HH6.54837@news2-hme0... > > | > > | "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > | news:qGeH6.46157$[email hidden]... > > | > Unfortunately, I haven't noticed any changes. > > | > > > | > Talladega still feels like I'm driving a 1966 Chrysler Town &

Country

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> > | > Station Wagon. > > | > > > | > Anyone who has driven one of these knows what 'light steering' feels > > like > > | :) > > | > > > | > -Larry > > | > > | Hi Larry > > | > > | I notice the same thing as you at Daytona and Tally. > > | Try this, turn the latency in the FFB option up and/or turn the

steering > > | ratio in your set-up down, I found that these help a lot. The downsides > > | though are that turning up the latency causes controller spiking so > > | experiment until you find a happy medium, also any new setting you > arrive > > at > > | for Daytona and Tally will be undrivable on the other tracks, I startto

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> > get > > | spiking with my MSFF after about 125ms, and turning the steering ratio > > down > > | makes the steering quicker so you have to use a lighter touch with the > > | wheel. > > | > > | Mark > > | > > | > > | > > > > > > > >

If you get the castor set good it makes the car drive a little better but it also gives you better feel. Its just like any other part of the setup and ther always are chioces to make. I have some very good setups for speed and wear and they all have alot of good feel through the wheel, so we already have what your talking about. If you find a good ratio that you cant live without then all you have to do is keep the same ratio and adjust it that way. Castor is not gonna make a drastic difference in speed though. "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:7hGH6.910$[email hidden]... > Some of us try to use the amount of castor that optimises the speed and > set-up of the car. Why would anyone want to adjust it just so that youcan > get appropriate FFB? Shouldn't Papy design the FFB to work with allset-ups > and tracks? Does a real car steering wheel lose all the feedback with a > castor adjustment? It should feel different with the castor adjustment,not

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> make the difference of being there or not there. > > Marc. > > "Ronnie Bigwhip" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:_uoH6.4433$[email hidden]... > > I think the force effects in N4 are perfect! I use the Act labs force

rs. > > Yiou guys having problem ...have yall tried adjusting the castorsettings

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> in > > the setup. More positive caster wil give you a heavier wheel. I can even > > feel a diference as to how much air is in the tires! > > > > > > "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:dkkH6.39883$[email hidden]... > > > FWIW & My 2cents, > > > When I first got my FFB wheel I felt that most of my sim racing steer > > > "lock" had to be dropped! I have always raced with a low lock from > > > World Circuit Racing by Micoprose {without FFB} and nothing has > > > changed with FFB except I have dropped down further! > > > In ICR2 I used a 14:1 to 12:1 and GPL I used the same but when I > > > got my FFB wheel I dropped it more! For me the super light touch > > > is the only' way to go! But many drive differently and I can see how > > > many want the higher steer lock.. > > > The lower 'lock' has always let me acquire faster lap times and with > > > the FFB it is even better! Especially in N4! To be honest for a long > > > time I thought everyone used at least a 14:1 lock in all sims...duh!!! > > > Soon I found out otherwise. "O" Well different strokes for different > > > folks..eh??? Happy Racing.. > > > Cheers Thom_j. > > > P.S. Gee I never messed with the latency setting before. I wonder > > > if I could 'squezze' another sec or 2 from Dega & Tona? Hmmm? > > > > > > "Mark Aisthorpe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:KzjH6.24696$HH6.54837@news2-hme0... > > > | > > > | "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > | news:qGeH6.46157$[email hidden]... > > > | > Unfortunately, I haven't noticed any changes. > > > | > > > > | > Talladega still feels like I'm driving a 1966 Chrysler Town & > Country > > > | > Station Wagon. > > > | > > > > | > Anyone who has driven one of these knows what 'light steering'

feels

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> > > like > > > | :) > > > | > > > > | > -Larry > > > | > > > | Hi Larry > > > | > > > | I notice the same thing as you at Daytona and Tally. > > > | Try this, turn the latency in the FFB option up and/or turn the > steering > > > | ratio in your set-up down, I found that these help a lot. The down > sides > > > | though are that turning up the latency causes controller spiking so > > > | experiment until you find a happy medium, also any new setting you > > arrive > > > at > > > | for Daytona and Tally will be undrivable on the other tracks, I

start > to > > > get > > > | spiking with my MSFF after about 125ms, and turning the steeringratio > > > down > > > | makes the steering quicker so you have to use a lighter touch withthe

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> > > | wheel. > > > | > > > | Mark > > > | > > > | > > > | > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Ronnie B, I understand what you are trying to say but I have no problems with my FFB wheel and I can feel every little change I make in N4 or any other setup in other sims that have FFB. I feel that you can and should do your FFB setup within the controller setup in any sim/game with FFB.. So I get what you are saying but I have never needed to change a 'castor' setting just to feel or not to feel something in mg FFB.. Its all subjective I guess?? Cheers Thom_j. "Ronnie Bigwhip" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:YxKH6.171$[email hidden]... | If you get the castor set good it makes the car drive a little better but | it also gives you better feel. Its just like any other part of the setupand | ther always are chioces to make. I have some very good setups for speedand

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| wear and they all have alot of good feel through the wheel, so we already | have what your talking about. If you find a good ratio that you cant live | without then all you have to do is keep the same ratio and adjust it that | way. Castor is not gonna make a drastic difference in speed though. | | "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message | news:7hGH6.910$[email hidden]... | > Some of us try to use the amount of castor that optimises the speed and | > set-up of the car. Why would anyone want to adjust it just so that you | can | > get appropriate FFB? Shouldn't Papy design the FFB to work with all | set-ups | > and tracks? Does a real car steering wheel lose all the feedback with a | > castor adjustment? It should feel different with the castor adjustment, | not | > make the difference of being there or not there. | > | > Marc. | > | > "Ronnie Bigwhip" <[email hidden]> wrote in message | > news:_uoH6.4433$[email hidden]... | > > I think the force effects in N4 are perfect! I use the Act labs force | rs. | > > Yiou guys having problem ...have yall tried adjusting the castor | settings | > in | > > the setup. More positive caster wil give you a heavier wheel. I can

even

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| > > feel a diference as to how much air is in the tires! | > > | > > | > > "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote in message | > > news:dkkH6.39883$[email hidden]... | > > > FWIW & My 2cents, | > > > When I first got my FFB wheel I felt that most of my sim racing

steer

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| > > > "lock" had to be dropped! I have always raced with a low lock from | > > > World Circuit Racing by Micoprose {without FFB} and nothing has | > > > changed with FFB except I have dropped down further! | > > > In ICR2 I used a 14:1 to 12:1 and GPL I used the same but when I | > > > got my FFB wheel I dropped it more! For me the super light touch | > > > is the only' way to go! But many drive differently and I can see how | > > > many want the higher steer lock.. | > > > The lower 'lock' has always let me acquire faster lap times and with | > > > the FFB it is even better! Especially in N4! To be honest for a long | > > > time I thought everyone used at least a 14:1 lock in all

sims...duh!!!

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| > > > Soon I found out otherwise. "O" Well different strokes for different | > > > folks..eh??? Happy Racing.. | > > > Cheers Thom_j. | > > > P.S. Gee I never messed with the latency setting before. I wonder | > > > if I could 'squezze' another sec or 2 from Dega & Tona? Hmmm? | > > > | > > > "Mark Aisthorpe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message | > > > news:KzjH6.24696$HH6.54837@news2-hme0... | > > > | | > > > | "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message | > > > | news:qGeH6.46157$[email hidden]... | > > > | > Unfortunately, I haven't noticed any changes. | > > > | > | > > > | > Talladega still feels like I'm driving a 1966 Chrysler Town & | > Country | > > > | > Station Wagon. | > > > | > | > > > | > Anyone who has driven one of these knows what 'light steering' | feels | > > > like | > > > | :) | > > > | > | > > > | > -Larry | > > > | | > > > | Hi Larry | > > > | | > > > | I notice the same thing as you at Daytona and Tally. | > > > | Try this, turn the latency in the FFB option up and/or turn the | > steering | > > > | ratio in your set-up down, I found that these help a lot. The down | > sides | > > > | though are that turning up the latency causes controller spiking

so

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| > > > | experiment until you find a happy medium, also any new setting you | > > arrive | > > > at | > > > | for Daytona and Tally will be undrivable on the other tracks, I | start | > to | > > > get | > > > | spiking with my MSFF after about 125ms, and turning the steering | ratio | > > > down | > > > | makes the steering quicker so you have to use a lighter touch with | the | > > > | wheel. | > > > | | > > > | Mark | > > > | | > > > | | > > > | | > > > | > > > | > > > | > > | > > | > | > | > | |

I had the same concern when I first started playing N4. Now however I really love the fact that you can feel the changes in the setup it is extremly useful as you can tell whether or not the setup is good by how the car feels in the wheel! I think all force games should reflect setup changes in the car ..this seems to be in line with what id expect in real life. "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:p2LH6.43571$[email hidden]... > Ronnie B, I understand what you are trying to say but I have no problems > with my FFB wheel and I can feel every little change I make in N4 or any > other setup in other sims that have FFB. I feel that you can and should do > your FFB setup within the controller setup in any sim/game with FFB.. > So I get what you are saying but I have never needed to change a 'castor' > setting just to feel or not to feel something in mg FFB.. Its allsubjective

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> I > guess?? > Cheers Thom_j. > > "Ronnie Bigwhip" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:YxKH6.171$[email hidden]... > | If you get the castor set good it makes the car drive a little better

but > | it also gives you better feel. Its just like any other part of the setup > and > | ther always are chioces to make. I have some very good setups for speed > and > | wear and they all have alot of good feel through the wheel, so wealready > | have what your talking about. If you find a good ratio that you cantlive > | without then all you have to do is keep the same ratio and adjust itthat > | way. Castor is not gonna make a drastic difference in speed though. > | > | "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > | news:7hGH6.910$[email hidden]... > | > Some of us try to use the amount of castor that optimises the speedand > | > set-up of the car. Why would anyone want to adjust it just so thatyou > | can > | > get appropriate FFB? Shouldn't Papy design the FFB to work with all > | set-ups > | > and tracks? Does a real car steering wheel lose all the feedback witha > | > castor adjustment? It should feel different with the castoradjustment,

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> | not > | > make the difference of being there or not there. > | > > | > Marc. > | > > | > "Ronnie Bigwhip" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > | > news:_uoH6.4433$[email hidden]... > | > > I think the force effects in N4 are perfect! I use the Act labs

force

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> | rs. > | > > Yiou guys having problem ...have yall tried adjusting the castor > | settings > | > in > | > > the setup. More positive caster wil give you a heavier wheel. I can > even > | > > feel a diference as to how much air is in the tires! > | > > > | > > > | > > "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote in message > | > > news:dkkH6.39883$[email hidden]... > | > > > FWIW & My 2cents, > | > > > When I first got my FFB wheel I felt that most of my sim racing > steer > | > > > "lock" had to be dropped! I have always raced with a low lock from > | > > > World Circuit Racing by Micoprose {without FFB} and nothing has > | > > > changed with FFB except I have dropped down further! > | > > > In ICR2 I used a 14:1 to 12:1 and GPL I used the same but when I > | > > > got my FFB wheel I dropped it more! For me the super light touch > | > > > is the only' way to go! But many drive differently and I can see

how > | > > > many want the higher steer lock.. > | > > > The lower 'lock' has always let me acquire faster lap times andwith > | > > > the FFB it is even better! Especially in N4! To be honest for along > | > > > time I thought everyone used at least a 14:1 lock in all > sims...duh!!! > | > > > Soon I found out otherwise. "O" Well different strokes fordifferent

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> | > > > folks..eh??? Happy Racing.. > | > > > Cheers Thom_j. > | > > > P.S. Gee I never messed with the latency setting before. I wonder > | > > > if I could 'squezze' another sec or 2 from Dega & Tona? Hmmm? > | > > > > | > > > "Mark Aisthorpe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > | > > > news:KzjH6.24696$HH6.54837@news2-hme0... > | > > > | > | > > > | "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > | > > > | news:qGeH6.46157$[email hidden]... > | > > > | > Unfortunately, I haven't noticed any changes. > | > > > | > > | > > > | > Talladega still feels like I'm driving a 1966 Chrysler Town & > | > Country > | > > > | > Station Wagon. > | > > > | > > | > > > | > Anyone who has driven one of these knows what 'light steering' > | feels > | > > > like > | > > > | :) > | > > > | > > | > > > | > -Larry > | > > > | > | > > > | Hi Larry > | > > > | > | > > > | I notice the same thing as you at Daytona and Tally. > | > > > | Try this, turn the latency in the FFB option up and/or turn the > | > steering > | > > > | ratio in your set-up down, I found that these help a lot. The

down > | > sides > | > > > | though are that turning up the latency causes controller spiking > so > | > > > | experiment until you find a happy medium, also any new settingyou

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> | > > arrive > | > > > at > | > > > | for Daytona and Tally will be undrivable on the other tracks, I > | start > | > to > | > > > get > | > > > | spiking with my MSFF after about 125ms, and turning the steering > | ratio > | > > > down > | > > > | makes the steering quicker so you have to use a lighter touch

with

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> | the > | > > > | wheel. > | > > > | > | > > > | Mark > | > > > | > | > > > | > | > > > | > | > > > > | > > > > | > > > > | > > > | > > > | > > | > > | > > | > | > > >

I wanna have to actually crank that puppy around by 90 deg in the turns at the SS's ! -Larry "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:CPmH6.40609$[email hidden]...

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> > & FWIW <g> > This is really odd Larry...lol.. Read my other post and you will see the > lower the better for me and you prefer higher.. Much! Higher! Wow!! > I barely move my wheel in N4 2"s {either way} from top dead center > at any given time and I prefer less! It just goes to show ya' that is why > they make Vanilla, Chocolate & Strawberry Ice Cream.. hahaha!!! > Cheers Thom_j. > > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:SfkH6.47695$[email hidden]... > | Mark, > | > | I have experimented with the Latency, and you're right. It does help. > | > | I can't see myself changing the ratio, though. I already feel like it > needs > | to be raised to 45:1. It's way, way more sensitive than it ever was at > | setting 5 in Nascar Racing <4. > | > | I was really hoping for that in the patch, but didn't get it :( > | > | Does anyone know of a way, maybe in DirectX, to kill off the steering > | sensitivity _before_ it gets to N4 ? > | > | I always felt that Papy's SIMS had the best controller code going. > | Unfortunately, I feel they have taken a huge step backwards in N4. > | > | Thanks for the idea! > | > | -Larry > | "Mark Aisthorpe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > | news:KzjH6.24696$HH6.54837@news2-hme0... > | > > | > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > | > news:qGeH6.46157$[email hidden]... > | > > Unfortunately, I haven't noticed any changes. > | > > > | > > Talladega still feels like I'm driving a 1966 Chrysler Town &

Country

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> | > > Station Wagon. > | > > > | > > Anyone who has driven one of these knows what 'light steering' feels > | like > | > :) > | > > > | > > -Larry > | > > | > Hi Larry > | > > | > I notice the same thing as you at Daytona and Tally. > | > Try this, turn the latency in the FFB option up and/or turn the

steering > | > ratio in your set-up down, I found that these help a lot. The downsides > | > though are that turning up the latency causes controller spiking so > | > experiment until you find a happy medium, also any new setting you > arrive > | at > | > for Daytona and Tally will be undrivable on the other tracks, I startto

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> | get > | > spiking with my MSFF after about 125ms, and turning the steering ratio > | down > | > makes the steering quicker so you have to use a lighter touch with the > | > wheel. > | > > | > Mark > | > > | > > | > > | > | > >

Hahahaha.. Now this is funny!! You prefer tossing the wheel back & forth 90&90 and I want it to barely move 3/4" each way!! See Vanilla, Chocolate & Strawberry..<RBFG> Thom_j. "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Cz_H6.64215$[email hidden]...

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| I wanna have to actually crank that puppy around by 90 deg in the turns at | the SS's ! | | -Larry | | "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote in message | news:CPmH6.40609$[email hidden]... | > | > & FWIW <g> | > This is really odd Larry...lol.. Read my other post and you will see the | > lower the better for me and you prefer higher.. Much! Higher! Wow!! | > I barely move my wheel in N4 2"s {either way} from top dead center | > at any given time and I prefer less! It just goes to show ya' that is

why

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| > they make Vanilla, Chocolate & Strawberry Ice Cream.. hahaha!!! | > Cheers Thom_j. | > | > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message | > news:SfkH6.47695$[email hidden]... | > | Mark, | > | | > | I have experimented with the Latency, and you're right. It does help. | > | | > | I can't see myself changing the ratio, though. I already feel like it | > needs | > | to be raised to 45:1. It's way, way more sensitive than it ever was

at

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| > | setting 5 in Nascar Racing <4. | > | | > | I was really hoping for that in the patch, but didn't get it :( | > | | > | Does anyone know of a way, maybe in DirectX, to kill off the steering | > | sensitivity _before_ it gets to N4 ? | > | | > | I always felt that Papy's SIMS had the best controller code going. | > | Unfortunately, I feel they have taken a huge step backwards in N4. | > | | > | Thanks for the idea! | > | | > | -Larry | > | "Mark Aisthorpe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message | > | news:KzjH6.24696$HH6.54837@news2-hme0... | > | > | > | > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message | > | > news:qGeH6.46157$[email hidden]... | > | > > Unfortunately, I haven't noticed any changes. | > | > > | > | > > Talladega still feels like I'm driving a 1966 Chrysler Town & | Country | > | > > Station Wagon. | > | > > | > | > > Anyone who has driven one of these knows what 'light steering'

feels

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| > | like | > | > :) | > | > > | > | > > -Larry | > | > | > | > Hi Larry | > | > | > | > I notice the same thing as you at Daytona and Tally. | > | > Try this, turn the latency in the FFB option up and/or turn the | steering | > | > ratio in your set-up down, I found that these help a lot. The down | sides | > | > though are that turning up the latency causes controller spiking so | > | > experiment until you find a happy medium, also any new setting you | > arrive | > | at | > | > for Daytona and Tally will be undrivable on the other tracks, I

start | to | > | get | > | > spiking with my MSFF after about 125ms, and turning the steeringratio | > | down | > | > makes the steering quicker so you have to use a lighter touch withthe

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| > | > wheel. | > | > | > | > Mark | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | | > | | > | > | |

That's easy, set steering linearity at 0% if that's your bag, personally I'm of the least movement in the wheel the better cam :o) Mark "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Cz_H6.64215$[email hidden]...

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> I wanna have to actually crank that puppy around by 90 deg in the turns at > the SS's ! > > -Larry > > "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:CPmH6.40609$[email hidden]... > > > > & FWIW <g> > > This is really odd Larry...lol.. Read my other post and you will see the > > lower the better for me and you prefer higher.. Much! Higher! Wow!! > > I barely move my wheel in N4 2"s {either way} from top dead center > > at any given time and I prefer less! It just goes to show ya' that is

why

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> > they make Vanilla, Chocolate & Strawberry Ice Cream.. hahaha!!! > > Cheers Thom_j. > > > > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:SfkH6.47695$[email hidden]... > > | Mark, > > | > > | I have experimented with the Latency, and you're right. It does help. > > | > > | I can't see myself changing the ratio, though. I already feel like it > > needs > > | to be raised to 45:1. It's way, way more sensitive than it ever was

at

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> > | setting 5 in Nascar Racing <4. > > | > > | I was really hoping for that in the patch, but didn't get it :( > > | > > | Does anyone know of a way, maybe in DirectX, to kill off the steering > > | sensitivity _before_ it gets to N4 ? > > | > > | I always felt that Papy's SIMS had the best controller code going. > > | Unfortunately, I feel they have taken a huge step backwards in N4. > > | > > | Thanks for the idea! > > | > > | -Larry > > | "Mark Aisthorpe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > | news:KzjH6.24696$HH6.54837@news2-hme0... > > | > > > | > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > | > news:qGeH6.46157$[email hidden]... > > | > > Unfortunately, I haven't noticed any changes. > > | > > > > | > > Talladega still feels like I'm driving a 1966 Chrysler Town & > Country > > | > > Station Wagon. > > | > > > > | > > Anyone who has driven one of these knows what 'light steering'

feels

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> > | like > > | > :) > > | > > > > | > > -Larry > > | > > > | > Hi Larry > > | > > > | > I notice the same thing as you at Daytona and Tally. > > | > Try this, turn the latency in the FFB option up and/or turn the > steering > > | > ratio in your set-up down, I found that these help a lot. The down > sides > > | > though are that turning up the latency causes controller spiking so > > | > experiment until you find a happy medium, also any new setting you > > arrive > > | at > > | > for Daytona and Tally will be undrivable on the other tracks, I

start > to > > | get > > | > spiking with my MSFF after about 125ms, and turning the steeringratio > > | down > > | > makes the steering quicker so you have to use a lighter touch withthe

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> > | > wheel. > > | > > > | > Mark > > | > > > | > > > | > > > | > > | > > > > > >

Hehe :) -Larry "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:0R%H6.44407$[email hidden]...

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> Hahahaha.. Now this is funny!! You prefer tossing the wheel back > & forth 90&90 and I want it to barely move 3/4" each way!! See > Vanilla, Chocolate & Strawberry..<RBFG> Thom_j. > > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Cz_H6.64215$[email hidden]... > | I wanna have to actually crank that puppy around by 90 deg in the turns

at

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> | the SS's ! > | > | -Larry > | > | "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote in message > | news:CPmH6.40609$[email hidden]... > | > > | > & FWIW <g> > | > This is really odd Larry...lol.. Read my other post and you will see

the

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> | > lower the better for me and you prefer higher.. Much! Higher! Wow!! > | > I barely move my wheel in N4 2"s {either way} from top dead center > | > at any given time and I prefer less! It just goes to show ya' that is > why > | > they make Vanilla, Chocolate & Strawberry Ice Cream.. hahaha!!! > | > Cheers Thom_j. > | > > | > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > | > news:SfkH6.47695$[email hidden]... > | > | Mark, > | > | > | > | I have experimented with the Latency, and you're right. It does

help. > | > | > | > | I can't see myself changing the ratio, though. I already feel likeit

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> | > needs > | > | to be raised to 45:1. It's way, way more sensitive than it ever was > at > | > | setting 5 in Nascar Racing <4. > | > | > | > | I was really hoping for that in the patch, but didn't get it :( > | > | > | > | Does anyone know of a way, maybe in DirectX, to kill off the

steering

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> | > | sensitivity _before_ it gets to N4 ? > | > | > | > | I always felt that Papy's SIMS had the best controller code going. > | > | Unfortunately, I feel they have taken a huge step backwards in N4. > | > | > | > | Thanks for the idea! > | > | > | > | -Larry > | > | "Mark Aisthorpe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > | > | news:KzjH6.24696$HH6.54837@news2-hme0... > | > | > > | > | > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > | > | > news:qGeH6.46157$[email hidden]... > | > | > > Unfortunately, I haven't noticed any changes. > | > | > > > | > | > > Talladega still feels like I'm driving a 1966 Chrysler Town & > | Country > | > | > > Station Wagon. > | > | > > > | > | > > Anyone who has driven one of these knows what 'light steering' > feels > | > | like > | > | > :) > | > | > > > | > | > > -Larry > | > | > > | > | > Hi Larry > | > | > > | > | > I notice the same thing as you at Daytona and Tally. > | > | > Try this, turn the latency in the FFB option up and/or turn the > | steering > | > | > ratio in your set-up down, I found that these help a lot. The down > | sides > | > | > though are that turning up the latency causes controller spiking

so

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> | > | > experiment until you find a happy medium, also any new setting you > | > arrive > | > | at > | > | > for Daytona and Tally will be undrivable on the other tracks, I > start > | to > | > | get > | > | > spiking with my MSFF after about 125ms, and turning the steering > ratio > | > | down > | > | > makes the steering quicker so you have to use a lighter touch with > the > | > | > wheel. > | > | > > | > | > Mark > | > | > > | > | > > | > | > > | > | > | > | > | > > | > > | > | > >

As has been brought up before, Liniarity won't do it. It just doesn't feel right. It has to be Linear. The RATIO range needs to be increased. Anyone used to running 5 in N3 for steering is gonna have a fit with N4, even at 32:1. -Larry "Mark Aisthorpe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ao1I6.4$mB4.1047@news2-hme0... > That's easy, set steering linearity at 0% if that's your bag, personallyI'm

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> of the least movement in the wheel the better cam :o) > > Mark > > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Cz_H6.64215$[email hidden]... > > I wanna have to actually crank that puppy around by 90 deg in the turns

at

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> > the SS's ! > > > > -Larry > > > > "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:CPmH6.40609$[email hidden]... > > > > > > & FWIW <g> > > > This is really odd Larry...lol.. Read my other post and you will see

the

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> > > lower the better for me and you prefer higher.. Much! Higher! Wow!! > > > I barely move my wheel in N4 2"s {either way} from top dead center > > > at any given time and I prefer less! It just goes to show ya' that is > why > > > they make Vanilla, Chocolate & Strawberry Ice Cream.. hahaha!!! > > > Cheers Thom_j. > > > > > > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:SfkH6.47695$[email hidden]... > > > | Mark, > > > | > > > | I have experimented with the Latency, and you're right. It does

help. > > > | > > > | I can't see myself changing the ratio, though. I already feel likeit

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > > needs > > > | to be raised to 45:1. It's way, way more sensitive than it ever was > at > > > | setting 5 in Nascar Racing <4. > > > | > > > | I was really hoping for that in the patch, but didn't get it :( > > > | > > > | Does anyone know of a way, maybe in DirectX, to kill off the

steering

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> > > | sensitivity _before_ it gets to N4 ? > > > | > > > | I always felt that Papy's SIMS had the best controller code going. > > > | Unfortunately, I feel they have taken a huge step backwards in N4. > > > | > > > | Thanks for the idea! > > > | > > > | -Larry > > > | "Mark Aisthorpe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > | news:KzjH6.24696$HH6.54837@news2-hme0... > > > | > > > > | > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > | > news:qGeH6.46157$[email hidden]... > > > | > > Unfortunately, I haven't noticed any changes. > > > | > > > > > | > > Talladega still feels like I'm driving a 1966 Chrysler Town & > > Country > > > | > > Station Wagon. > > > | > > > > > | > > Anyone who has driven one of these knows what 'light steering' > feels > > > | like > > > | > :) > > > | > > > > > | > > -Larry > > > | > > > > | > Hi Larry > > > | > > > > | > I notice the same thing as you at Daytona and Tally. > > > | > Try this, turn the latency in the FFB option up and/or turn the > > steering > > > | > ratio in your set-up down, I found that these help a lot. The down > > sides > > > | > though are that turning up the latency causes controller spiking

so

Quoted text (26 lines)

> > > | > experiment until you find a happy medium, also any new setting you > > > arrive > > > | at > > > | > for Daytona and Tally will be undrivable on the other tracks, I > start > > to > > > | get > > > | > spiking with my MSFF after about 125ms, and turning the steering > ratio > > > | down > > > | > makes the steering quicker so you have to use a lighter touch with > the > > > | > wheel. > > > | > > > > | > Mark > > > | > > > > | > > > > | > > > > | > > > | > > > > > > > > > > > >

Have you actually tried it? I thought the same as you until I did a few runs at 16:1 just to try it. Turns out I liked it much better! -Phasor "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:IliI6.69142$[email hidden]... > As has been brought up before, Liniarity won't do it. It just doesn'tfeel

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> right. > > It has to be Linear. > > The RATIO range needs to be increased. > > Anyone used to running 5 in N3 for steering is gonna have a fit with N4, > even at 32:1. > > -Larry > > "Mark Aisthorpe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:ao1I6.4$mB4.1047@news2-hme0... > > That's easy, set steering linearity at 0% if that's your bag, personally > I'm > > of the least movement in the wheel the better cam :o) > > > > Mark > > > > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:Cz_H6.64215$[email hidden]... > > > I wanna have to actually crank that puppy around by 90 deg in the

turns

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> at > > > the SS's ! > > > > > > -Larry > > > > > > "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:CPmH6.40609$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > & FWIW <g> > > > > This is really odd Larry...lol.. Read my other post and you will see > the > > > > lower the better for me and you prefer higher.. Much! Higher! Wow!! > > > > I barely move my wheel in N4 2"s {either way} from top dead center > > > > at any given time and I prefer less! It just goes to show ya' that

is

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> > why > > > > they make Vanilla, Chocolate & Strawberry Ice Cream.. hahaha!!! > > > > Cheers Thom_j. > > > > > > > > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:SfkH6.47695$[email hidden]... > > > > | Mark, > > > > | > > > > | I have experimented with the Latency, and you're right. It does > help. > > > > | > > > > | I can't see myself changing the ratio, though. I already feel

like > it > > > > needs > > > > | to be raised to 45:1. It's way, way more sensitive than it everwas

Quoted text (39 lines)

> > at > > > > | setting 5 in Nascar Racing <4. > > > > | > > > > | I was really hoping for that in the patch, but didn't get it :( > > > > | > > > > | Does anyone know of a way, maybe in DirectX, to kill off the > steering > > > > | sensitivity _before_ it gets to N4 ? > > > > | > > > > | I always felt that Papy's SIMS had the best controller code going. > > > > | Unfortunately, I feel they have taken a huge step backwards in N4. > > > > | > > > > | Thanks for the idea! > > > > | > > > > | -Larry > > > > | "Mark Aisthorpe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > | news:KzjH6.24696$HH6.54837@news2-hme0... > > > > | > > > > > | > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > | > news:qGeH6.46157$[email hidden]... > > > > | > > Unfortunately, I haven't noticed any changes. > > > > | > > > > > > | > > Talladega still feels like I'm driving a 1966 Chrysler Town & > > > Country > > > > | > > Station Wagon. > > > > | > > > > > > | > > Anyone who has driven one of these knows what 'light steering' > > feels > > > > | like > > > > | > :) > > > > | > > > > > > | > > -Larry > > > > | > > > > > | > Hi Larry > > > > | > > > > > | > I notice the same thing as you at Daytona and Tally. > > > > | > Try this, turn the latency in the FFB option up and/or turn the > > > steering > > > > | > ratio in your set-up down, I found that these help a lot. The

down > > > sides > > > > | > though are that turning up the latency causes controller spiking > so > > > > | > experiment until you find a happy medium, also any new settingyou

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > > > arrive > > > > | at > > > > | > for Daytona and Tally will be undrivable on the other tracks, I > > start > > > to > > > > | get > > > > | > spiking with my MSFF after about 125ms, and turning the steering > > ratio > > > > | down > > > > | > makes the steering quicker so you have to use a lighter touch

with

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> > the > > > > | > wheel. > > > > | > > > > > | > Mark > > > > | > > > > > | > > > > > | > > > > > | > > > > | > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Yeah... I made pretzels for about 200 yards, and I wasn't even out of the pits yet! -Larry "Phasor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:oInI6.18031$[email hidden]...

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> Have you actually tried it? I thought the same as you until I did a few > runs at 16:1 just to try it. Turns out I liked it much better! > > -Phasor > > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:IliI6.69142$[email hidden]... > > As has been brought up before, Liniarity won't do it. It just doesn't > feel > > right. > > > > It has to be Linear. > > > > The RATIO range needs to be increased. > > > > Anyone used to running 5 in N3 for steering is gonna have a fit with N4, > > even at 32:1. > > > > -Larry > > > > "Mark Aisthorpe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:ao1I6.4$mB4.1047@news2-hme0... > > > That's easy, set steering linearity at 0% if that's your bag,

personally

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> > I'm > > > of the least movement in the wheel the better cam :o) > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:Cz_H6.64215$[email hidden]... > > > > I wanna have to actually crank that puppy around by 90 deg in the > turns > > at > > > > the SS's ! > > > > > > > > -Larry > > > > > > > > "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:CPmH6.40609$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > > > & FWIW <g> > > > > > This is really odd Larry...lol.. Read my other post and you will

see > > the > > > > > lower the better for me and you prefer higher.. Much! Higher!Wow!!

Quoted text (30 lines)

> > > > > I barely move my wheel in N4 2"s {either way} from top dead center > > > > > at any given time and I prefer less! It just goes to show ya' that > is > > > why > > > > > they make Vanilla, Chocolate & Strawberry Ice Cream.. hahaha!!! > > > > > Cheers Thom_j. > > > > > > > > > > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > news:SfkH6.47695$[email hidden]... > > > > > | Mark, > > > > > | > > > > > | I have experimented with the Latency, and you're right. It does > > help. > > > > > | > > > > > | I can't see myself changing the ratio, though. I already feel > like > > it > > > > > needs > > > > > | to be raised to 45:1. It's way, way more sensitive than it ever > was > > > at > > > > > | setting 5 in Nascar Racing <4. > > > > > | > > > > > | I was really hoping for that in the patch, but didn't get it :( > > > > > | > > > > > | Does anyone know of a way, maybe in DirectX, to kill off the > > steering > > > > > | sensitivity _before_ it gets to N4 ? > > > > > | > > > > > | I always felt that Papy's SIMS had the best controller code

going. > > > > > | Unfortunately, I feel they have taken a huge step backwards inN4. > > > > > | > > > > > | Thanks for the idea! > > > > > | > > > > > | -Larry > > > > > | "Mark Aisthorpe" <[email hidden]> wrote inmessage

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> > > > > | news:KzjH6.24696$HH6.54837@news2-hme0... > > > > > | > > > > > > | > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > | > news:qGeH6.46157$[email hidden]... > > > > > | > > Unfortunately, I haven't noticed any changes. > > > > > | > > > > > > > | > > Talladega still feels like I'm driving a 1966 Chrysler Town

& > > > > Country > > > > > | > > Station Wagon. > > > > > | > > > > > > > | > > Anyone who has driven one of these knows what 'lightsteering'

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> > > feels > > > > > | like > > > > > | > :) > > > > > | > > > > > > > | > > -Larry > > > > > | > > > > > > | > Hi Larry > > > > > | > > > > > > | > I notice the same thing as you at Daytona and Tally. > > > > > | > Try this, turn the latency in the FFB option up and/or turn

the > > > > steering > > > > > | > ratio in your set-up down, I found that these help a lot. The > down > > > > sides > > > > > | > though are that turning up the latency causes controllerspiking > > so > > > > > | > experiment until you find a happy medium, also any new setting > you > > > > > arrive > > > > > | at > > > > > | > for Daytona and Tally will be undrivable on the other tracks,I > > > start > > > > to > > > > > | get > > > > > | > spiking with my MSFF after about 125ms, and turning thesteering

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> > > ratio > > > > > | down > > > > > | > makes the steering quicker so you have to use a lighter touch > with > > > the > > > > > | > wheel. > > > > > | > > > > > > | > Mark > > > > > | > > > > > > | > > > > > > | > > > > > > | > > > > > | > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >