What exactly is the difference between a CART car and a F1 car? Wings,
tires, displacement? I don't follow CART but there has been a bit of talk
around here lately about it and I'm curious.
Is CART cars old F1 tech, or does it develop on its own. Is a CART car
comparable to a F3000 car?
And where does an IRL car rate among this?
Thanks guys...
********************************
Dave Pawlikowski
[email hidden]
********************************
Differences between CART, F1 and IRL cars
A poster asked how CART cars differ from F1, F3000 and IRL cars. Replies covered CART's turbo engines, ground effects, weight, oval and road wing packages, and IRL's near-spec normally aspirated engines, plus a debate about carbon versus iron brakes and a link to a field guide.
real motorsport
Automated summary.
Cart cars are actually known as Championship Cars or Champ cars.
They have MORE powerful turbocharged engines, more ground effects and tunnel
bottoms, wider stance(similiar to F1 before grooved tires)
two different wing packages for road racing and ovals, They weigh more and
the BIGGEST difference other than sheer cost are the brakes.
F1 cars can stop in incredibly short distances. CART mandates a brake rules
package that, while still very good, is nowhere near the stopping power of
F1 cars. F1 cars are generally considered faster in road racing
due to the ability to stop and start quicker than the Champ cars but F1 cars
don't have the overall top speed the Champ cars can produce.
Cart is the racing group that USED to race the Indianapolis 500. But no
longer, except for a couple of teams that buy IRL cars to run there.
Champ cars are customer bought cars, not handcrafted from the ground up like
F1. But Champ cars can have some modifications, The engines are all leased
from Ford, Honda & Toyota(plus a few used Ilmor's)
and cannot be modified by the teams. Lola & Reynard are the two big chassis
builders right now...others that have run well include Penske's own
creations from a shop in England, Dan Gurney's Eagles(now defunct) March's,
& Swifts.
For a look at the current Cart series try this site.
http://www.cart.com/
and this site for a look at some of the Champ car patches coming out.
http://www.champweb.net/
That ought to get you started.
dave henrie
"Dave Pawlikowski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:RHcI6.9919$V%[email hidden]...
Quoted text (17 lines)
> What exactly is the difference between a CART car and a F1 car? Wings, > tires, displacement? I don't follow CART but there has been a bit of talk > around here lately about it and I'm curious. > > Is CART cars old F1 tech, or does it develop on its own. Is a CART car > comparable to a F3000 car? > > And where does an IRL car rate among this? > > Thanks guys... > > ******************************** > Dave Pawlikowski > [email hidden] > ******************************** > > This topic was covered a couple of times on "Track Talk". Listen in,
and maybe even call the host and ask him to cover that again :-)
Dave Pawlikowski wrote in message ...
Quoted text (17 lines)
>What exactly is the difference between a CART car and a F1 car? Wings, >tires, displacement? I don't follow CART but there has been a bit of talk >around here lately about it and I'm curious. > >Is CART cars old F1 tech, or does it develop on its own. Is a CART car >comparable to a F3000 car? > >And where does an IRL car rate among this? > >Thanks guys... > >******************************** >Dave Pawlikowski >[email hidden] >******************************** > >
Dave Pawlikowski wrote:
> And where does an IRL car rate among this?
IRL is very close to a spec racing series... The motors are normally
aspirated 3.5 liter with a rev limiter (limited to 11 or 12,000 rpm?), and no
real advantages can be gained thru development since most aspects of motor
construction are severely regulated. They produce somewhere around 600+
horsepower and I believe they are similar in weight to a champ car, which
would make them extremely slow on a road/street course (the IRL is an
ovals-only series). They still attain speeds of over 220 mph, but as CART/F1
drivers Montoya, Vasser, DeFerran, and Castro-Neves have said after driving
an IRL car, if you have to get out of the gas it takes a (relatively) long
time to get back to speed.
DeFerran owns the single lap qualifying world record of over 241 mph at
the 2-mile oval of California Speedway last October in a CART champ car, and
the cars recently tried to race at Texas Motor Speedway. The drivers found
out that a 236+ mph average on a 1 1/2 mile, 24 degree banked oval created
G-forces that the human body cannot handle for much more than 20 minutes,
causing dizziness, disorientation, tunnel vision, and in one driver's case, a
momentary blackout. The race was then canceled.
Warlock!
Quoted text (8 lines)
> > > Thanks guys... > > ******************************** > Dave Pawlikowski > [email hidden] > ********************************Simple answer is that they can't be compared.
CART bare no relation to F1 cars (besides being single seaters but there are
many single seater cars non of which compare to F1).
CART cars differ in most ways, different wings, slick tyres, larger side
pods, differently shaped monocoque and rear end, different (maybe better)
safety devices as they are simple but do the job compared to F1's ugly and
complex style.
CART cars are heavier but have more power in their engines because they have
different engines. They are one of the few not to have a duct above the
drivers head due to the type of engine used. They have only 6 gears which
are manual.
A completely separate governing body and set of rules.
They have a better fuel injection system IMO with the customary spray of
water for extra safety.
I could go on, it'd be easier to list their similarities, they are two
different series, with different rules, cars, engines, tracks, drivers,
governing body (the big factor), etc....
CART is probably better than F3000. F3000 is the F1 support series. Indy
Lights is the support series to CART.
IRL is supposedly on par with CART but in all honestly CART is a higher step
than IRL. IRL is probably in between Indy Lights and CART but is a separate
series to the Indy Racing Split meaning it's not an official "feeder" to
CART but basically a lot of top drivers make the jump.
Dave Pawlikowski <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:RHcI6.9919$V%[email hidden]...
Quoted text (17 lines)
> What exactly is the difference between a CART car and a F1 car? Wings, > tires, displacement? I don't follow CART but there has been a bit of talk > around here lately about it and I'm curious. > > Is CART cars old F1 tech, or does it develop on its own. Is a CART car > comparable to a F3000 car? > > And where does an IRL car rate among this? > > Thanks guys... > > ******************************** > Dave Pawlikowski > [email hidden] > ******************************** > >In article <nfdI6.101319$[email hidden]>,
Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote:
>the BIGGEST difference other than sheer cost are the brakes.
>F1 cars can stop in incredibly short distances. CART mandates a brake rules
>package that, while still very good, is nowhere near the stopping power of
>F1 cars. F1 cars are generally considered faster in road racing
>due to the ability to stop and start quicker than the Champ cars but F1 cars
>don't have the overall top speed the Champ cars can produce.
Actually, from what I've read, the iron based brakes on a CART car have
theoretical stopping power that is suprisingly close to the carbon/carbon
brakes used in F1. However, the carbon brakes are much more thermally
efficient. The carbon material "soaks in" much more heat before radiating
it off to the pads, fluid, etc... This of course leads to improved
braking performance. Also, everybody seems to forget that the unsprung
weight difference between iron and carbon brakes makes a BIG differnce in
suspension tuning.
I don't mean to pick nits with Dave, I just thought others may find this
interesting.
--
| "Instead of letting the moon be the
Bill Mette | gateway to our future, we have let
Enteract, Chicago | it become a brief chapter in our
[email hidden] | history." - Andrew Chaikin
well the f1 cars top 220mph at Hockenheim, so itd be interesting to see in a
Papy sim maybe? what kindof times theyd run Michigan in.
F1 offer less aerodynamic drag than the also heavier cart machines.
and F1 is now up around 850bhp, cart is around 900 so im thinking theyd be
pretty similar.
IRL is open wheels weak cousin, 8500rpm limited 3.5l engines, more grip to
power than cart or F1.
pez
Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:nfdI6.101319$[email hidden]...
> Cart cars are actually known as Championship Cars or Champ cars.
> They have MORE powerful turbocharged engines, more ground effects andtunnel
> bottoms, wider stance(similiar to F1 before grooved tires)
> two different wing packages for road racing and ovals, They weigh more and
> the BIGGEST difference other than sheer cost are the brakes.
> F1 cars can stop in incredibly short distances. CART mandates a brakerules
> package that, while still very good, is nowhere near the stopping power of
> F1 cars. F1 cars are generally considered faster in road racing
> due to the ability to stop and start quicker than the Champ cars but F1cars
> don't have the overall top speed the Champ cars can produce.
> Cart is the racing group that USED to race the Indianapolis 500. But no
> longer, except for a couple of teams that buy IRL cars to run there.
> Champ cars are customer bought cars, not handcrafted from the ground uplike
> F1. But Champ cars can have some modifications, The engines are allleased
> from Ford, Honda & Toyota(plus a few used Ilmor's)
> and cannot be modified by the teams. Lola & Reynard are the two bigchassis
> builders right now...others that have run well include Penske's own
> creations from a shop in England, Dan Gurney's Eagles(now defunct)March's,
talk
Quoted text (12 lines)
> & Swifts. > For a look at the current Cart series try this site. > http://www.cart.com/ > and this site for a look at some of the Champ car patches coming out. > http://www.champweb.net/ > > That ought to get you started. > dave henrie > "Dave Pawlikowski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:RHcI6.9919$V%[email hidden]... > > What exactly is the difference between a CART car and a F1 car? Wings, > > tires, displacement? I don't follow CART but there has been a bit ofQuoted text (17 lines)
> > around here lately about it and I'm curious. > > > > Is CART cars old F1 tech, or does it develop on its own. Is a CART car > > comparable to a F3000 car? > > > > And where does an IRL car rate among this? > > > > Thanks guys... > > > > ******************************** > > Dave Pawlikowski > > [email hidden] > > ******************************** > > > > > >Spoke to a guy who races FFord 1600s today who has a friend who works for
BAR as a model maker, they reckon an F1 car would lap a superspeedway 5 or
10mph quicker than a cart car.
pez
Dave Pawlikowski <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:RHcI6.9919$V%[email hidden]...
Quoted text (17 lines)
> What exactly is the difference between a CART car and a F1 car? Wings, > tires, displacement? I don't follow CART but there has been a bit of talk > around here lately about it and I'm curious. > > Is CART cars old F1 tech, or does it develop on its own. Is a CART car > comparable to a F3000 car? > > And where does an IRL car rate among this? > > Thanks guys... > > ******************************** > Dave Pawlikowski > [email hidden] > ******************************** > >Maybe, but would it still be doing that after 500 miles?
Wayne Hutchison
"Alexpez" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:9csk4d$fkh$[email hidden]...
talk
Quoted text (9 lines)
> Spoke to a guy who races FFord 1600s today who has a friend who works for > BAR as a model maker, they reckon an F1 car would lap a superspeedway 5 or > 10mph quicker than a cart car. > > pez > Dave Pawlikowski <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:RHcI6.9919$V%[email hidden]... > > What exactly is the difference between a CART car and a F1 car? Wings, > > tires, displacement? I don't follow CART but there has been a bit ofQuoted text (17 lines)
> > around here lately about it and I'm curious. > > > > Is CART cars old F1 tech, or does it develop on its own. Is a CART car > > comparable to a F3000 car? > > > > And where does an IRL car rate among this? > > > > Thanks guys... > > > > ******************************** > > Dave Pawlikowski > > [email hidden] > > ******************************** > > > > > >Fascinating - I've been looking for something like this for a long time.
Thanks!
-Phasor
"TRUSRS85" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/cosworth/274/field_guide.html
>
> http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/cosworth/274/field_guide.html
in short
CART => high speed and momentum conservation
F1 => agility and manuverability
Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:nfdI6.101319$[email hidden]...
> Cart cars are actually known as Championship Cars or Champ cars.
> They have MORE powerful turbocharged engines, more ground effects andtunnel
> bottoms, wider stance(similiar to F1 before grooved tires)
> two different wing packages for road racing and ovals, They weigh more and
> the BIGGEST difference other than sheer cost are the brakes.
> F1 cars can stop in incredibly short distances. CART mandates a brakerules
> package that, while still very good, is nowhere near the stopping power of
> F1 cars. F1 cars are generally considered faster in road racing
> due to the ability to stop and start quicker than the Champ cars but F1cars
> don't have the overall top speed the Champ cars can produce.
> Cart is the racing group that USED to race the Indianapolis 500. But no
> longer, except for a couple of teams that buy IRL cars to run there.
> Champ cars are customer bought cars, not handcrafted from the ground uplike
> F1. But Champ cars can have some modifications, The engines are allleased
> from Ford, Honda & Toyota(plus a few used Ilmor's)
> and cannot be modified by the teams. Lola & Reynard are the two bigchassis
> builders right now...others that have run well include Penske's own
> creations from a shop in England, Dan Gurney's Eagles(now defunct)March's,
talk
Quoted text (12 lines)
> & Swifts. > For a look at the current Cart series try this site. > http://www.cart.com/ > and this site for a look at some of the Champ car patches coming out. > http://www.champweb.net/ > > That ought to get you started. > dave henrie > "Dave Pawlikowski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:RHcI6.9919$V%[email hidden]... > > What exactly is the difference between a CART car and a F1 car? Wings, > > tires, displacement? I don't follow CART but there has been a bit ofQuoted text (17 lines)
> > around here lately about it and I'm curious. > > > > Is CART cars old F1 tech, or does it develop on its own. Is a CART car > > comparable to a F3000 car? > > > > And where does an IRL car rate among this? > > > > Thanks guys... > > > > ******************************** > > Dave Pawlikowski > > [email hidden] > > ******************************** > > > > > >The word is latent heat.
CArbon has lower latent heat
it does NOT soak in heat and therefore
less "heated up"
Iron has higher latent heat and
therefore acts like a heatsink.
When heat accumulates, the iron
becomes soft and lose its ability
to stop.
the same reason why iron heat sink
are not used in computers.
they have a tendency to "keep the heat "
that they so quickly soak in.
.
Quoted text (9 lines)
> > Actually, from what I've read, the iron based brakes on a CART car have > theoretical stopping power that is suprisingly close to the carbon/carbon > brakes used in F1. However, the carbon brakes are much more thermally > efficient. The carbon material "soaks in" much more heat before radiating > it off to the pads, fluid, etc... This of course leads to improved > braking performance. Also, everybody seems to forget that the unsprung > weight difference between iron and carbon brakes makes a BIG differnce in > suspension tuning.>
>Fascinating - I've been looking for something like this for a long time.
>Thanks!
>
One day you'll appreciate what I have just done for you :)
Not without a total body modification, I bet. Different wings for sure...
But then I guess that's why they can't truly be compared.
Warlock!
Alexpez wrote:
Quoted text (24 lines)
> Spoke to a guy who races FFord 1600s today who has a friend who works for > BAR as a model maker, they reckon an F1 car would lap a superspeedway 5 or > 10mph quicker than a cart car. > > pez > Dave Pawlikowski <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:RHcI6.9919$V%[email hidden]... > > What exactly is the difference between a CART car and a F1 car? Wings, > > tires, displacement? I don't follow CART but there has been a bit of talk > > around here lately about it and I'm curious. > > > > Is CART cars old F1 tech, or does it develop on its own. Is a CART car > > comparable to a F3000 car? > > > > And where does an IRL car rate among this? > > > > Thanks guys... > > > > ******************************** > > Dave Pawlikowski > > [email hidden] > > ******************************** > > > >I'd say about $200,000,000 and a whole lot of hype!
ed_
--
Note!
Return address is NOT my own - but the e-mail address to an e-mail
mass-distribution company that have bothered me one time to many!
Eat this - suckers!
"Bill Mette" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:9cs74m$jj6$[email hidden]...
yes.. it's a common misconception that carbon fibre brakes stop the car
significantly quicker than steel ones. in the end, it's the tyre compound
that determines how much friction there is between wheel and road and how
much braking force can be applied before lock-up... the discs/pads just
convert the KE to heat and dissipate it
KK
Quoted text (11 lines)
> Actually, from what I've read, the iron based brakes on a CART car have > theoretical stopping power that is suprisingly close to the carbon/carbon > brakes used in F1. However, the carbon brakes are much more thermally > efficient. The carbon material "soaks in" much more heat before radiating > it off to the pads, fluid, etc... This of course leads to improved > braking performance. Also, everybody seems to forget that the unsprung > weight difference between iron and carbon brakes makes a BIG differnce in > suspension tuning. > > I don't mean to pick nits with Dave, I just thought others may find this > interesting.
"Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:1tzI6.6167$[email hidden]...
> I'd say about $200,000,000 and a whole lot of hype!
>
to a degree... the marketing machine runs 24/7 in F1..... but ultimately, F1
is seen as the technological edge of motorsport.. indy doesn't come close in
that regard
KK
Kasper Kowalski <wrote:>
> "Ed Solheim" wrote:
> > I'd say about $200,000,000 and a whole lot of hype!
> >
>
> to a degree... the marketing machine runs 24/7 in F1..... but ultimately,F1
> is seen as the technological edge of motorsport.. indy doesn't come closein
> that regard
Is that good or bad??
--
ed_
--
Note!
Return address is *not* my own - but the e-mail address to an e-mail
mass-distribution company that have bothered me one time to many!
Eat this - suckers!
"Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:L9JI6.4100$[email hidden]...
> > to a degree... the marketing machine runs 24/7 in F1..... butultimately,
> F1
> > is seen as the technological edge of motorsport.. indy doesn't comeclose
> in
> > that regard
>
> Is that good or bad??
good for the technophiles... i mean.. at one point you couls havean F1 car
with active suspension, anti-lock brakes, traction control, carbon-fibre
everything... etc etc.. the rules have tightened somwhat, but the high-tech
side of things is still very prominent, look at how much aero work is done
in F1?
on the other hand, it's bad because it inevitably turns into a case of the
haves and have-nots with significant performance differences between
teams... though i can't help but wonder if not for all the pace laps, would
we still see lots of lead-changes in CART
KK
If it's a typical F1 race, 5 cars will be running in th end of 100
laps
On Thu, 3 May 2001 18:53:24 -0400, "Wayne Hutchison"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
