Patrick Head of Williams F1 on Sim Racing

Thought these comments by patrick head of the williams F1 team might interest you all:

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>Future � Sim-Racing? > �Simulation work is advancing continuously but there > are still some areas in say the simulation of the whole > car that we have problems with getting an absolute true > picture. > > �The main area there that�s a challenge right now is the > tyres. They are actually developing at a rate that is very > difficult to keep up with � making it hard for Michelin to > provide us a precise simulation model of the tyre and its > behaviour. Fundamentally, our car is dependent on the > tyre completely for its grip on the track. So, having a > model that is limited and imperfect means that some of > the real car simulation is actually very difficult to do. We > have to use quite a bit of guesswork and then make > allowances on the result for realising that the result > may not be absolutely precise - precise because of the > limitations in the tyre model. But as time progresses > those models are becoming a lot better.

Isn't the tire modelling considered to be a weeknesses of GPL too?

Uh-huh... and remember Patrick isn't necessarily talking real time simulation. Jan. =---- "Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn. Leo Greco wrote... > Thought these comments by patrick head of the williams F1 team > might interest you all: > > ><snip>> > Isn't the tire modelling considered to be a weeknesses of GPL > too?

No. If it's GPL, it must be absolutely perfect. I don't care what Patrick Head says. He knows nothing about simulators. Either does Jackie Stewart or anyone else outside of r.a.s. GPL'ers. David G Fisher "Leo Greco" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:wTFK6.109242$[email hidden]... > Thought these comments by patrick head of the williams F1 team mightinterest

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> you all: > > >Future - Sim-Racing? > > "Simulation work is advancing continuously but there > > are still some areas in say the simulation of the whole > > car that we have problems with getting an absolute true > > picture. > > > > "The main area there that's a challenge right now is the > > tyres. They are actually developing at a rate that is very > > difficult to keep up with - making it hard for Michelin to > > provide us a precise simulation model of the tyre and its > > behaviour. Fundamentally, our car is dependent on the > > tyre completely for its grip on the track. So, having a > > model that is limited and imperfect means that some of > > the real car simulation is actually very difficult to do.

We

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> > have to use quite a bit of guesswork and then make > > allowances on the result for realising that the result > > may not be absolutely precise - precise because of the > > limitations in the tyre model. But as time progresses > > those models are becoming a lot better. > > Isn't the tire modelling considered to be a weeknesses of GPL too?

No David is right. Patrick Head may be a real F1 Whiz... but obviously the complexties of producing a modern Racing car have left him little time to examine the scope and spectrum of what is available to day. I am pretty confident in saying the simulations that the teams use are NOT driving simulations per se...but rather mockups of how the car will perform at a certain track with a certain setup. If they take the driver out of the equation, they can program the simulation to test various setups that will give them a good baseline for starting real testing at the track. Now David's reply was tongue in cheek but it has a grain of truth whether he knows it or not..Head says getting tires modeled correctly is difficult because of the advances being made almost daily...think back to 1967..back...back....now...what technological changes were made to the racing tires during the season? Anyone? ....since, as I'm guessing, the tires were pretty stagnant development wise, the GPL programmers could make many of the same guesses that the Williams team have made in their programming. dave henrie "Ben Coleman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3afb3b64$[email hidden]...

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> Get back under your rock and wait for your patch. > > Ben > > David G Fisher wrote in message ... > >No. If it's GPL, it must be absolutely perfect. I don't care what Patrick > >Head says. He knows nothing about simulators. Either does Jackie Stewart

or > >anyone else outside of r.a.s. GPL'ers. > > > >David G Fisher > > >

I agree with what you're saying, both about the nature of the simulations f1 teams use and the inapplicability of their tire modeling problems in gpl. I guess I was using some lateral thinking to equate his statements to gpl. AFAIK, the problems with the tire modeling in gpl is that it does not account for the deformation of the tire under lateral and longitudinal loading. So what I found interesting about his comments were the following statements: "Fundamentally, our car is dependent on the tyre completely for its grip on the track. So, having a model that is limited and imperfect means that some of the real car simulation is actually very difficult to do." I guess this sortakinda supports those who claim that the incomplete tire modeling made gpl unrealistic cuz it is such an important component of the simulation. Leo In article <loHK6.5035$[email hidden]>, "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> No David is right. Patrick Head may be a real F1 Whiz... but obviously >the complexties of producing a modern Racing car have left him little time >to examine the scope and spectrum of what is available to day. > I am pretty confident in saying the simulations that the teams use are NOT >driving simulations per se...but rather mockups of how the car will perform >at a certain track with a certain setup. If they take the driver out of the >equation, they can program the simulation to test various setups that will >give them a good baseline for starting real testing at the track. > Now David's reply was tongue in cheek but it has a grain of truth whether >he knows it or not..Head says getting tires modeled correctly is difficult >because of the advances being made almost daily...think back to >1967..back...back....now...what technological changes were made to the >racing tires during the season? Anyone? ....since, as I'm guessing, the >tires were pretty >stagnant development wise, the GPL programmers could make many of the same >guesses that the Williams team have made in their programming.

On Fri, 11 May 2001 02:02:07 +0200, "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Uh-huh... and remember Patrick isn't necessarily talking real time >simulation. And even if he does, it's probably one that'd cost you a few million bucks, not $50 for a game and $2000 for a puter ... :-) Hint to Leo Greco: that's the problems with quotes without sources, we can't get the full picture! Jan

"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:loHK6.5035$[email hidden]... > No David is right. Patrick Head may be a real F1 Whiz... but obviously > the complexties of producing a modern Racing car have left him little time > to examine the scope and spectrum of what is available to day. > I am pretty confident in saying the simulations that the teams use areNOT > driving simulations per se...but rather mockups of how the car willperform > at a certain track with a certain setup. If they take the driver out ofthe > equation, they can program the simulation to test various setups that will > give them a good baseline for starting real testing at the track. > Now David's reply was tongue in cheek but it has a grain of truthwhether

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> he knows it or not..Head says getting tires modeled correctly is difficult > because of the advances being made almost daily...think back to > 1967..back...back....now...what technological changes were made to the > racing tires during the season? Anyone? ....since, as I'm guessing, the > tires were pretty > stagnant development wise, the GPL programmers could make many of the same > guesses that the Williams team have made in their programming.

the tyre models used in games are simplistic in the extreme compared to a real tyre... i know nothing about how the physics in sims is programmed so correct me if i'm wrong. based on the way most sims feel, chances are the programmers only model fairly basic static and kinetic friction effects with the rest contributed by inertia. to really model a tyre accurately, you need to factor in changes in contact patch pressure movement as suspension/cornering/braking/accelerating loads change... you need to factor in tyre deformation (the sidewall is in effect a suspension component, defelecting more than the suspension itself at times)... more specifically, a more realistic frictional model needs to be created... tyre grip isn't a two-step process of grip or slip... the coefficient of friction is a dynamic thing changing with tyre temperature, load, wear.... if you think the processor occupancy of gp3 drawing a full grid is high, imagine a true simulation of tyre performance for each car... you'd need serious processing power KK

David G Fisher wrote: > > No. If it's GPL, it must be absolutely perfect. I don't care what Patrick > Head says. He knows nothing about simulators. Either does Jackie Stewart or > anyone else outside of r.a.s. GPL'ers. David, you stick to 2nd rate 'sims', they suit you. Ha. Gerry "I'm completely alone in my views." -- David G Fisher, 2nd rate 'sim' racing 'legend'.

"Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote ... > > > David G Fisher wrote: > > > > No. If it's GPL, it must be absolutely perfect. I don't care whatPatrick > > Head says. He knows nothing about simulators. Either does Jackie Stewartor

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> > anyone else outside of r.a.s. GPL'ers. > > David, you stick to 2nd rate 'sims', they suit you. Ha. > > Gerry > > "I'm completely alone in my views." -- David G Fisher, 2nd rate 'sim' > racing 'legend'.

I don't suppose there's any chance that DGF was being ironic? No, of course not... Tony Whitley "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Albert Einstein

Tony Whitley wrote:

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> > "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote ... > > > > > > David G Fisher wrote: > > > > > > No. If it's GPL, it must be absolutely perfect. I don't care what > Patrick > > > Head says. He knows nothing about simulators. Either does Jackie Stewart > or > > > anyone else outside of r.a.s. GPL'ers. > > > > David, you stick to 2nd rate 'sims', they suit you. Ha. > > > > Gerry > > > > "I'm completely alone in my views." -- David G Fisher, 2nd rate 'sim' > > racing 'legend'. > > I don't suppose there's any chance that DGF was being ironic?

Irony:- 1: Expression of meaning by language of opposite or different tendency or... 2: Use of a language with one meaning for privileged few and another for those addressed or concerned. or... 3: Ill-timed or perverse arrival of event or circumstance that would in itself be desirable. > No, of course not... Of course DFG is one of GPL's biggest fans. Gerry "All I can think to say to my critics is go f**k yourselves." -- David G Fisher

The real question for me is do the tire models that can be used in games exceed in sophistication the available data used to generate them. I think that the answer to that question can now be yes, if desired. Kasper Kowalski wrote:

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> the tyre models used in games are simplistic in the extreme compared to a > real tyre... i know nothing about how the physics in sims is programmed so > correct me if i'm wrong. based on the way most sims feel, chances are the > programmers only model fairly basic static and kinetic friction effects with > the rest contributed by inertia. to really model a tyre accurately, you > need to factor in changes in contact patch pressure movement as > suspension/cornering/braking/accelerating loads change... you need to factor > in tyre deformation (the sidewall is in effect a suspension component, > defelecting more than the suspension itself at times)... more specifically, > a more realistic frictional model needs to be created... tyre grip isn't a > two-step process of grip or slip... the coefficient of friction is a dynamic > thing changing with tyre temperature, load, wear.... if you think the > processor occupancy of gp3 drawing a full grid is high, imagine a true > simulation of tyre performance for each car... you'd need serious processing > power > > KK

-- Matthew V. Jessick Motorsims [email hidden] http://www.moto1.net Vehicle Dynamics Engineer (972)910-8866 Ext.125, Fax: (972)910-8216

>"Tony Whitley" <[email hidden]. c o . u k> wrote > I don't suppose there's any chance that DGF was being ironic? No. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.ymenard.com/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

On Fri, 11 May 2001, mjessick-Motorsims wrote: > The real question for me is do the tire models that can be > used in games exceed in sophistication the available data > used to generate them. > > I think that the answer to that question can now > be yes, if desired. Hi Matt, You've managed to confuse me...could you re-state that, or give an example? -- Doug Douglas Milliken <[email hidden]> Milliken Research Associates Inc.

My bad. I'd post a link but I think it's too long to work with my newsreader app. The article is at www.bmw.williamsf1.com. It's called: "Patrick Head on Formula One technology". Jan Loebzien <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>On Fri, 11 May 2001 02:02:07 +0200, "Jan Verschueren" ><[email hidden]> wrote: > >>Uh-huh... and remember Patrick isn't necessarily talking real time >>simulation. > >And even if he does, it's probably one that'd cost you a few million >bucks, not $50 for a game and $2000 for a puter ... :-) > >Hint to Leo Greco: that's the problems with quotes without sources, >we can't get the full picture! > > >Jan

On Fri, 11 May 2001 23:01:27 GMT, [email hidden] (Leo Greco) wrote: >The article is at www.bmw.williamsf1.com. It's called: >"Patrick Head on Formula One technology". Thanks!

On Fri, 11 May 2001 00:48:50 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote: >No. If it's GPL, it must be absolutely perfect. I don't care what Patrick >Head says. He knows nothing about simulators. Either does Jackie Stewart or >anyone else outside of r.a.s. GPL'ers. > >David G Fisher Jeez, spooky. This is the first time I've looked into r.a.s. for months, and it's true - some things really do never change! Go to it Dave, you'll either convince someone someday, or wake up and realise what a waste of time it's all been... Cheers! John