Which series use Traction Control?

Watching the Rolex at Midohio, I heard they use Traction Control. I have also heard the FIA GT cars like those simulated in GTR use TC. Which series do and which don't? I know Champcar is not a TC series. I forget about F1, they used to be at least. How would this affect/effect( I can NEVER remember which is which) hotlap sites. Most are macho no aids sites, and thats how I usually do it. GTRank is one such site. All my laps are aidless.(and clueless) but I wonder if others do or do not use TC/stability controls? And what about the morality of using TC? If the series uses TC, then shouldn't those aids be allowed for online and hotlapping? dave henrie

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>"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote > Watching the Rolex at Midohio, I heard they use Traction Control. I > have also heard the FIA GT cars like those simulated in GTR use TC. > Which series do and which don't? > I know Champcar is not a TC series. I forget about F1, they used to be at > least. > How would this affect/effect( I can NEVER remember which is which) hotlap > sites. Most are macho no aids sites, and thats how I usually do it. > GTRank is one such site. All my laps are aidless.(and clueless) but I > wonder if others do or do not use TC/stability controls? > > And what about the morality of using TC? If the series uses TC, then > shouldn't those aids be allowed for online and hotlapping?

The Nextel Cup guys... but hey don't yell that too loud 8) So yes you can enable that aid now inside NR2003, even online. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

FIA GT does not allow TC. "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:MYoQe.1030$[email hidden]...

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> >"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote >> Watching the Rolex at Midohio, I heard they use Traction Control. I >> have also heard the FIA GT cars like those simulated in GTR use TC. >> Which series do and which don't? >> I know Champcar is not a TC series. I forget about F1, they used to be >> at >> least. >> How would this affect/effect( I can NEVER remember which is which) >> hotlap >> sites. Most are macho no aids sites, and thats how I usually do it. >> GTRank is one such site. All my laps are aidless.(and clueless) but I >> wonder if others do or do not use TC/stability controls? >> >> And what about the morality of using TC? If the series uses TC, then >> shouldn't those aids be allowed for online and hotlapping? > > > The Nextel Cup guys... but hey don't yell that too loud 8) > > So yes you can enable that aid now inside NR2003, even online. > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez > Corporation - helping America into the New World... > >

ymenard wrote: > The Nextel Cup guys... but hey don't yell that too loud 8) How do you propose a cup team would secretly install traction control when the entire contents of their ignition system are openly viewable in the cockpit?

For this season and previous seasons: FIA - F1 allows traction control but not via a braking system, it has to be done at the engine. It also doesn't allow an computerized differential that would apply more force to the outside wheel (it can take more force because of the increased downforce on the outside wheel during cornering). Unlike a limited slip differential, this would be a no slip differential, complex and not allowed in any racing class I'm aware of. Last season F1 allowed fully electronic control (clutch, gear box, ECU) for auto shifting and launches. FIA - GT1 class - unlike F1 which states what can't be done, is a bit more clear that traction control is done at the engine (via the ECU). FIA - GT2 and lower classes, traction control not allowed. ACO - Lemans LMP1, LMP2 - traction control at the engine (ECU) allowed. IRL - not allowed. Champ car (CART) - not allowed The reality is that if that any race car with an sophisticated ECU could implement some type of traction control, by limiting how fast rpms can increase in each gear. Unless ECU's are banned by a certain series, traction control is a possiblity.

>"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote > How do you propose a cup team would secretly install traction control > when the entire contents of their ignition system are openly viewable > in the cockpit? They are all flirting with something that does alter the traction differently than a 0-100% linear input from the driver's foot pressing the accelerator. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

"Jeff Reid" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:J1tQe.133018$E95.37369@fed1read01...

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> For this season and previous seasons: > > FIA - F1 allows traction control but not via a braking system, it has > to be done at the engine. It also doesn't allow an computerized > differential that would apply more force to the outside wheel (it > can take more force because of the increased downforce on the > outside wheel during cornering). Unlike a limited slip differential, > this would be a no slip differential, complex and not allowed > in any racing class I'm aware of. Last season F1 allowed fully

I think such differentials are used in the WRC-cars. > electronic control (clutch, gear box, ECU) for auto shifting > and launches. True for last year as you wrote, but Auto-shifting and launch control were banned in 2005. Traction control must not be used at the start until the cars reaches 100 kph. > FIA - GT1 class - unlike F1 which states what can't be done, is > a bit more clear that traction control is done at the engine (via > the ECU). Yes, TC allowed. > FIA - GT2 and lower classes, traction control not allowed. Yes, no TC here. > ACO - Lemans LMP1, LMP2 - traction control at the engine (ECU) allowed. Correction/addition: LM900/675/GTP: no TC LMP1/2: TC LMGT1: TC LMGT2: TC No differences in the ALMS! > IRL - not allowed. Yes, TC was banned before the 2004 season I think. > Champ car (CART) - not allowed Yes, TC was banned since Cosworth was the only engine. Bye Stephan

> > FIA - F1 > True for last year as you wrote, but Auto-shifting and launch control were banned in 2005. Traction control must not > be used at the start until the cars reaches 100 kph. Who could possibley check the ECU's to see if traction control being used under 100kph / 62mph? Dumb rule anyway, hard to enforce, and do they want a crash fest during the standing starts?. How many F1 tracks have sub 100kph hairpins anyway?

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> Correction/addition: > > LM900/675/GTP: no TC > LMP1/2: TC > LMGT1: TC > LMGT2: TC > > No differences in the ALMS!

Someone's been doing their homework. It's hard to decipher this information from the rule books, especially when in the cases where the rules just specify what isn't allowed and don't mention what is allowed. > > Champ car (CART) - not allowed > > Yes, TC was banned since Cosworth was the only engine. The even brag about this, no traction control, (translation, we crash more).

Jeff Reid wrote: > The even brag about this, no traction control, (translation, we > crash more). Having to rely on your skill as a driver when applying the throttle is a bad thing? Champcars have never had driving aids, whether it be active suspension, traction control, semi-automatic gears, etc. I'm not a big fan of the current NA Cosworths, but the older formulas with the turbo 4 bangers coupled with the standard CART ground effect, low profile bodywork, and actual stick shifts were some of the most exciting race cars ever made, up there with GTX 5, GTP C, the Lotus 78/79, and the Mclaren MP4/4.

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:1125976163.480248.265670 @f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com: > Champcars have never had driving aids, whether it be active suspension, > traction control, semi-automatic gears, etc. I'm not a big fan of the > current NA Cosworths, but the older formulas with the turbo 4 bangers > coupled with the standard CART ground effect, low profile bodywork, and > actual stick shifts were some of the most exciting race cars ever made, > up there with GTX 5, GTP C, the Lotus 78/79, and the Mclaren MP4/4. Careful there JM. Penske routinely ran TC it was finally allowed when Toyota began complaining. And the current Cosworths ARE TURBO. Just de- tuned turbos. Same basic block that did 900+hp and 240+mph at California. Now with longevity and cost control, they are approximentally 750hp. But I agree, when Michael Andretti and Al Unser Jr were challenging the older drivers like Emmo and Rahal and Mario...the racing was great. dave henrie

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>> Champcars have never had driving aids, whether it be active suspension, >> traction control, semi-automatic gears, etc. I'm not a big fan of the >> current NA Cosworths, but the older formulas with the turbo 4 bangers >> coupled with the standard CART ground effect, low profile bodywork, and >> actual stick shifts were some of the most exciting race cars ever made, >> up there with GTX 5, GTP C, the Lotus 78/79, and the Mclaren MP4/4. > > Careful there JM. Penske routinely ran TC it was finally allowed when > Toyota began complaining. And the current Cosworths ARE TURBO. Just de- > tuned turbos. Same basic block that did 900+hp and 240+mph at California.

That was 240+mph average lap speed during qualification. Top qualify speeds were 265mph. During a race at Michigan, Paul Tracy recorded a trap speed of 257mph. They slowed them down after that year (1997?) with by adding a drag inducing strip to the rear spoiler. There's no point in this anymore, as they don't run on high speed ovals anymore. Down to just 2 ovals, mid-sized ones, the rest being road and street courses. Toyota Atantic series specifies a no lift sequential shifter, don't the Champ cars use a similar type shift setup?

Jeff Reid wrote: > Toyota Atantic series specifies a no lift sequential shifter, don't the > Champ cars use a similar type shift setup? Fully manual paddle shifting with a foot clutch, unless it's changed very recently. IIRC the engine cuts out on upshifts to keep the car from over-reving, rather than being semi-automatic.

"Jeff Reid" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:Yt7Te.167992$E95.152561@fed1read01...

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>> > FIA - F1 >> True for last year as you wrote, but Auto-shifting and launch control >> were banned in 2005. Traction control must not be used at the start until >> the cars reaches 100 kph. > > Who could possibley check the ECU's to see if traction control being used > under 100kph / 62mph? Dumb rule anyway, hard to enforce, and do they want

Yes, very hard to control that for the FIA. But they try to but I don�t know how. > a crash fest during the standing starts?. How many F1 tracks have sub When the full launch control was allowed we had much more cars that stalled on green. > 100kph hairpins anyway? I think you misunderstood something. The rule that TC must not be active under 100 kph is only for the start. After that TC is allowed at any speed. [...] Regards Stephan

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:[email hidden]...

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> Jeff Reid wrote: > >> The even brag about this, no traction control, (translation, we >> crash more). > > Having to rely on your skill as a driver when applying the throttle is > a bad thing?

No, not for Champcar. But it should stay legal for F1. > Champcars have never had driving aids, whether it be active suspension, > traction control, semi-automatic gears, etc. I'm not a big fan of the Traction control was allowed at least for 2002. > current NA Cosworths, but the older formulas with the turbo 4 bangers The Cosworths are still turbo charged, but with reduced pressure and a rev limit. > coupled with the standard CART ground effect, low profile bodywork, and > actual stick shifts were some of the most exciting race cars ever made, > up there with GTX 5, GTP C, the Lotus 78/79, and the Mclaren MP4/4. Full ACK Stephan

"Jeff Reid" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:eW8Te.168895$E95.16546@fed1read01...

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>>> Champcars have never had driving aids, whether it be active suspension, >>> traction control, semi-automatic gears, etc. I'm not a big fan of the >>> current NA Cosworths, but the older formulas with the turbo 4 bangers >>> coupled with the standard CART ground effect, low profile bodywork, and >>> actual stick shifts were some of the most exciting race cars ever made, >>> up there with GTX 5, GTP C, the Lotus 78/79, and the Mclaren MP4/4. >> >> Careful there JM. Penske routinely ran TC it was finally allowed when >> Toyota began complaining. And the current Cosworths ARE TURBO. Just de- >> tuned turbos. Same basic block that did 900+hp and 240+mph at >> California. > > That was 240+mph average lap speed during qualification. Top qualify > speeds

Yes, that was fanstastic. I remember watching it on Eurosport. Mauricio Gugelmin took the record in 1997 and was beaten by Gil de Ferran in 2000. > were 265mph. During a race at Michigan, Paul Tracy recorded a trap speed > of > 257mph. They slowed them down after that year (1997?) with by adding a > drag I was searching for those topspeeds for quite a while but could never find them. I only knew they were above 400 kph but not more. So where did you get the numbers from? > inducing strip to the rear spoiler. There's no point in this anymore, as > they Yes, they slowed it down consistently after the 1997-season. But Gil de Ferran beat Gugelmins record in the 2000 qualifying at Fontana. I still don�t know how they could go faster in 2000 with all those regulations reducing power and increasing drag. > don't run on high speed ovals anymore. Down to just 2 ovals, mid-sized > ones, > the rest being road and street courses. That�s bad I think. Champcar always was about the oval/road-course-mix. Too many road-courses today. > Toyota Atantic series specifies a no lift sequential shifter, don't the > Champ cars use a similar type shift setup? Yes, in Champcars you don�t have to lift. Stephan

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:[email hidden]...

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> Jeff Reid wrote: > >> Toyota Atantic series specifies a no lift sequential shifter, don't the >> Champ cars use a similar type shift setup? > > Fully manual paddle shifting with a foot clutch, unless it's changed > very recently. IIRC the engine cuts out on upshifts to keep the car

Champcars never had paddle shifting. It was only sequential gearbox with a gear-lever. > from over-reving, rather than being semi-automatic. I never got the real difference between semi-automatic, which is often mentioned as being paddle-shifting, and sequential gearboxes. I think semi-automatic systems automatically activate the clutch and blip the throttle. Is that right? Stephan

"Stephan Paskert" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:431db0bd$0$2102$[email hidden]: > No, not for Champcar. But it should stay legal for F1. Traction Control, stay legal for F1 are you serious??? -- Transplants save lives! - Have you signed up to be a donor? http://www.uktransplant.org.uk Do something amazing today. Save a life, give blood. http://www.blood.co.uk/ My games collection and Live games: http://www.fooatari.plus.com/.

> I was searching for those topspeeds for quite a while but could never find them. I only knew they were above 400 kph > but not more. So where did you get the numbers from? Paul Tracy at 257mph: http://www.mat.uc.pt/~rps/f1/top_speed.html I'll have to look again for the 265mph speed reached during qualifying at California. It was mentioned a few times as the reason for slowing the cars down.

>> inducing strip to the rear spoiler. There's no point in this anymore, as they > > Yes, they slowed it down consistently after the 1997-season. But Gil de Ferran beat Gugelmins record in the 2000 > qualifying at Fontana. I still don�t know how they could go faster in 2000 with all those regulations reducing power > and increasing drag. No reduction in power, just that strip. Apparently the teams figured out how to divert air flow around the strip, and/or used more effeicient air foils / nose cones. CART was one of the few series where a different nose cone and wing size were used depending on the speed of the track. Other differences between CART/Champ/IRL versus FIA is that the USA series allow underbody tunneling for more efficient downforce (FIA uses skidboards), CART/Champ cars use turob-charged alcohol burining engines, and the CART/Champ cars are more crashworthy than F1 cars because they were over 200mph so often, which is why they are 200lbs or more heavier than F1 cars. Now with the high speed ovals gone, I'm suprised there isn't a trend in the rules to allow lighter cars.

"Jeff Reid" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:wqlTe.179829$E95.59227@fed1read01...

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>>> inducing strip to the rear spoiler. There's no point in this anymore, as >>> they >> >> Yes, they slowed it down consistently after the 1997-season. But Gil de >> Ferran beat Gugelmins record in the 2000 qualifying at Fontana. I still >> don�t know how they could go faster in 2000 with all those regulations >> reducing power and increasing drag. > > No reduction in power, just that strip. Apparently the teams figured out > how to divert air flow around the strip, and/or used more effeicient air > foils / nose cones. CART was one of the few series where a different nose > cone and wing size were used depending on the speed of the track.

Yes, I should have written "reducing boost". I am quite sure that boot was reduced over the years. Power might have stayed about the same because of heavy development from the engine manufacturers. As you wrote the rest will be aerodynamic optimizations and maybe tyre-development. > Other differences between CART/Champ/IRL versus FIA is that the > USA series allow underbody tunneling for more efficient downforce (FIA > uses skidboards), CART/Champ cars use turob-charged alcohol burining Yeah I allready knew all of that. Formula 1�s underbodys with their "wodden" plates are crap compared to the champcar ones. > engines, and the CART/Champ cars are more crashworthy than F1 cars > because they were over 200mph so often, which is why they are 200lbs > or more heavier than F1 cars. Now with the high speed ovals gone, I'm > suprised there isn't a trend in the rules to allow lighter cars. Well there is only one chassis manufacturer left and the financial situation of the teams is not the best. So no argument for lighter cars. I think I heard a new chassis will be used from 2007 on. Greetings Stephan

"FooAtari" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:[email hidden]...

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> "Stephan Paskert" <[email hidden]> wrote in > news:431db0bd$0$2102$[email hidden]: > > >> No, not for Champcar. But it should stay legal for F1. > > Traction Control, stay legal for F1 are you serious???

Yes, of course. Formula 1 is all about hightech and too many things have already been banned. People who want to see powerslides, manual shifting etc. should better watch V8 Supercars, NASCAR and similar series. > -- Stephan

"Stephan Paskert" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:431e1559$0$24146$[email hidden]:

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> "FooAtari" <[email hidden]> schrieb im > Newsbeitrag news:[email hidden]... >> "Stephan Paskert" <[email hidden]> wrote in >> news:431db0bd$0$2102$[email hidden]: >> >> >>> No, not for Champcar. But it should stay legal for F1. >> >> Traction Control, stay legal for F1 are you serious??? > > Yes, of course. Formula 1 is all about hightech and too many things > have already been banned. People who want to see powerslides, manual > shifting etc. should better watch V8 Supercars, NASCAR and similar > series. > >> -- > > Stephan > > >

They are also supposed to be the best drivers in the world... It's set to get banned anyway I think in 2008. F1 is lossing both circuit attendance and tv viewing figures. Being hi-tech is all well and good, but when the racing is crap it doest mean much. Admitadly(sp) its mainly down to the cars dependancy on areo dynamics that is causing the crap races but I would say most fans want to the driver drive the car, not driver aided by the car driving the car. -- Transplants save lives! - Have you signed up to be a donor? http://www.uktransplant.org.uk Do something amazing today. Save a life, give blood. http://www.blood.co.uk/ My games collection and Live games: http://www.fooatari.plus.com/.

Stephan Paskert wrote:

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> "Jeff Reid" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > news:J1tQe.133018$E95.37369@fed1read01... > > For this season and previous seasons: > > > > FIA - F1 allows traction control but not via a braking system, it has > > to be done at the engine. It also doesn't allow an computerized > > differential that would apply more force to the outside wheel (it > > can take more force because of the increased downforce on the > > outside wheel during cornering). Unlike a limited slip differential, > > this would be a no slip differential, complex and not allowed > > in any racing class I'm aware of. Last season F1 allowed fully > > I think such differentials are used in the WRC-cars.

WRC cars have three active diffs (but some teams don't have an active centre diff), which do help to distribute power to wheels electronically, but they certainly ain't 'no slip differentials'.

"Nick" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:[email hidden]...

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> Stephan Paskert wrote: >> "Jeff Reid" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag >> news:J1tQe.133018$E95.37369@fed1read01... >> > For this season and previous seasons: >> > >> > FIA - F1 allows traction control but not via a braking system, it has >> > to be done at the engine. It also doesn't allow an computerized >> > differential that would apply more force to the outside wheel (it >> > can take more force because of the increased downforce on the >> > outside wheel during cornering). Unlike a limited slip differential, >> > this would be a no slip differential, complex and not allowed >> > in any racing class I'm aware of. Last season F1 allowed fully >> >> I think such differentials are used in the WRC-cars. > > WRC cars have three active diffs (but some teams don't have an active > centre diff), which do help to distribute power to wheels > electronically, but they certainly ain't 'no slip differentials'.

Ah, ok, thanks for explaining. I confounded those. Stephan