GPL newbie - force feedback

I'm new to GPL, and I'm tinkering with the FF settings, trying to get things 'right'. I have the new Logitech FF GP. The machine is a Celery 400, V3 3000, 160MB ram. My frame rate holds pretty steady at 36fps. These settings work pretty well - force_feedback_damping = 40.000000 force_feedback_latency = 0.085000 max_steering_torque = 225.000000, and in the windows controller panel overall effects, spring effect and damper effect are all set to 100%, with the centering spring disabled. The problem I'm having is when I straighten up after a turn - the steering rocks back and forth, gently, but noticeably, like the car is fishtailing coming out of the turn. I'm trying to work out how much of this effect is the natural effect of driving a 1967 GP beast, how much may be due to incorrect FF setup, and how much is simply due to my poor techinque. So, when taking the default setup for a given car, what can I change in the setup to reduce this fishtailing of the car, and any suggestions in related improvements to the FF settings?

Looks like the damping could be backed off a bit mate... try a higer number... higher = lower in gpl land :-) <snippd>

It would be that your torque is too high, (I use 210 rather than 225 on my LWFF wheel). But it could also be your latency figure. This can cause fishtailing because the latency synchonises the on-screen action with the forces in the wheel. If it isn't correct, everything feels wrong, as you try to correct forces either too far in advance or too late. A good way to set the latency figure is to find a nice kerb and slowly drive backwards and forwards over it DIAGONALLY. This way you get 4 "bumps" as the 4 wheels go over the kerb at different times. Once the latency figure is set correctly you should lose the fishtailing effect. Lol SF.

Go to this site and have a looksie about settings for your FF wheel and more. http://www.slottweak.com/ then Go down to Misc. and Comrtoller And Game Settings.. I think you will find your Logitech FF GP wheel here? Gary D aka GTX_SlotCar has one great site... Hope this helps? Thom_j. "Frankie Howerd" wrote: | I'm new to GPL, and I'm tinkering with the FF settings, trying to getthings | 'right'. I have the new Logitech FF GP. The machine is a Celery 400, V3 | 3000, 160MB ram. My frame rate holds pretty steady at 36fps. Thesesettings

Quoted text (14 lines)

| work pretty well - | force_feedback_damping = 40.000000 | force_feedback_latency = 0.085000 | max_steering_torque = 225.000000, | and in the windows controller panel overall effects, spring effect and | damper effect are all set to 100%, with the centering spring disabled. | | The problem I'm having is when I straighten up after a turn - the steering | rocks back and forth, gently, but noticeably, like the car is fishtailing | coming out of the turn. I'm trying to work out how much of this effect is | the natural effect of driving a 1967 GP beast, how much may be due to | incorrect FF setup, and how much is simply due to my poor techinque. | | So, when taking the default setup for a given car, what can I change in

the | setup to reduce this fishtailing of the car, and any suggestions inrelated | improvements to the FF settings? | |

I tend to disagree. The settings on those page are completely wrong. Do as per instructions by Papyrus, and you should be fine. -Gregor Thom j. wrote: > Go to this site and have a looksie about settings for your FF wheel > and more. http://www.slottweak.com/ then Go down to Misc. and > Comrtoller And Game Settings.. > I think you will find your Logitech FF GP wheel here? Gary D aka > GTX_SlotCar has one great site... Hope this helps? Thom_j. >

Well they have been spot on for me and I feel his info is invaluable at times but you have the right to your opinion as I do mine!! :o) "Gregor Veble" wrote:

Quoted text (14 lines)

| I tend to disagree. The settings on those page are completely wrong. Do | as per instructions by Papyrus, and you should be fine. | | -Gregor | | Thom j. wrote: | | > Go to this site and have a looksie about settings for your FF wheel | > and more. http://www.slottweak.com/ then Go down to Misc. and | > Comrtoller And Game Settings.. | > I think you will find your Logitech FF GP wheel here? Gary D aka | > GTX_SlotCar has one great site... Hope this helps? Thom_j. | > |

> Well they have been spot on for me and I feel his info is invaluable > at times but you have the right to your opinion as I do mine!! :o) They are complete and total nonsense!

Quoted text (13 lines)

> "Gregor Veble" wrote: > | I tend to disagree. The settings on those page are completely wrong. Do > | as per instructions by Papyrus, and you should be fine. > | > | -Gregor > | > | Thom j. wrote: > | > | > Go to this site and have a looksie about settings for your FF wheel > | > and more. http://www.slottweak.com/ then Go down to Misc. and > | > Comrtoller And Game Settings.. > | > I think you will find your Logitech FF GP wheel here? Gary D aka > | > GTX_SlotCar has one great site... Hope this helps? Thom_j.

Paul

As you say with your small minded extremely limited subjective opinion!! Cheers!! <BFG> "Paul Laidlaw" wrote: | > Thom_j wrote: | > Well they have been spot on for me and I feel his info is invaluable | > at times but you have the right to your opinion as I do mine!! :o) | | They are complete and total nonsense!

> As you say with your small minded extremely limited subjective opinion!! > Cheers!! <BFG> Hmmm, I guess I'd better explain how I think this all works then, but sadly it is quite complex! The max_steering_torque value works as described by papyrus, there is no reason to think it doesn't, after all they wrote the game! The Torque at the steering wheel is computed by the physics model (in Newton Inches according to the text in core.ini) and this is divided by max_steering_torque (and maybe clamped between -1.0 and 1.0) If we set the damping to 0 and adjust max_steering_torque everything works exactly as it should as far as steering centering/weight is concerned (no impact forces yet), increasing max_streering_torque decreases the force we feel as it should, decreasing this value increases the force we feel but if we set it too low the feedback forces clip making it harder to differentiate changes in steering feel. This is basically the complete opposite of what is said on that website which recommends huge numbers for this setting which gives almost no steering centering/feel. The force_feedback_damping value is what causes all the problems because it is used for more than just damping! GPL has 2 types of forces, the steering force computed by the physics model and preprogrammed forces for collisions/kerbs/rough ground etc. The force_feedback_damping is used to damp spikes (noise) in the computed steering torque by subtratcing a percentage of the change from frame to frame, if we set force_feedback_damping too high the damping value will become bigger that the computed value which will result in bizzare steering effects such as force feedback trying to turn us INTO the corner when the exact opposite should happen and this is exactly what happens with the huge damping values from that website. The force_feedback_damping value is also used to scale the collision forces so you have to use some damping if you want these forces. If you set the value too high the collision forces become massive (they will clip to the maximum feedback force) even for tiny little knocks or driving on grass etc, again this is exactly what happens with the values from that website. Things would be better if a seperate coefficient was used to scale damping and impact forces but I guess papy thought this good enough, it just about is. You should use a smaller force_feedback_damping value than max_steering_torque value in order to get nice centering/feel and a reasonable impact force level. The default max_steering_torque as used by papyrus should be a good starting point as they actually know what values the physics model computes, so you shouldn't stray too far from this value. All in all the values suggested on that website are completely wrong, they give bizzare steering effects and massively excessive impact forces, I suspect my steering wheel would soon break if I used those values for long! It wouldn't do my wrists much good either! Anyway if you still want to use those values then go right ahead, as you say, you have the right to your own opinion. BTW what does BFG stand for? Big ******* Grin ? > "Paul Laidlaw" wrote: > | > Thom_j wrote: > | > Well they have been spot on for me and I feel his info is invaluable > | > at times but you have the right to your opinion as I do mine!! :o) > | > | They are complete and total nonsense! Paul

May I throw something in? Beside the fact that FF settings are always following individual likings, different wheels even from the same type are reacting different to a given setting. I tried it myself with several old LWFF (why are those thingies all over my house ;-) and needed total different settings to suit my taste. Hope this brings down the tension a bit. JensSchumi BTW: there was an excellent primer about those FF-settings awhile ago by Ambulator (if I recall right). Whoever wrote this fantastic guide, herewith I ask officially for permission to publish it in the files section of the LWFF-forum :-) On Mon, 04 Jun 2001 17:55:11 GMT, "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (11 lines)

>As you say with your small minded extremely limited subjective opinion!! >Cheers!! <BFG> > >"Paul Laidlaw" wrote: >| > Thom_j wrote: >| > Well they have been spot on for me and I feel his info is invaluable >| > at times but you have the right to your opinion as I do mine!! :o) >| >| They are complete and total nonsense! > >

-- LWFF Ball Bearing conversion at: http://members.nbci.com/JensSchu/ GPLRank: -10.1 Monsters of GPL: sub 200

Actually, I just checked the site again. The advice on this page is sound: http://www.slottweak.com/gplintro.htm what is written here, though: http://www.slottweak.com/gamesettings.htm completely abuses the FF engine (it makes the steering feel like a bad implementation of power steering found on many a roadcar). It all depends on which settinng you are refering to. -Gregor "Thom j." wrote: > > Well they have been spot on for me and I feel his info is invaluable > at times but you have the right to your opinion as I do mine!! :o) >

Agreed 100% JS.. Everyone has different driving techniques and styles so [in my eyes] for anyone to say "They are complete and total nonsense!" is blatantly rude! I did say: "they have been spot on for me and I feel his info is invaluable at times" No more, No less! So after my friendly comment I receive such a rude reply I just put them in my ignore bin!! Thank you for trying to: "bring down the tension a bit" but there isnt any tension on my end :-).. I just consider the reply & rather not deal with a source with such a blanketed trite petty reply.. Cheers Thom_j. "JS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... | May I throw something in? | | Beside the fact that FF settings are always following individual likings, | different wheels even from the same type are reacting different to a given | setting. | I tried it myself with several old LWFF (why are those thingies all overmy

Quoted text (9 lines)

| house ;-) and needed total different settings to suit my taste. | | Hope this brings down the tension a bit. | | JensSchumi | | BTW: there was an excellent primer about those FF-settings awhile ago by | Ambulator (if I recall right). | Whoever wrote this fantastic guide, herewith I ask officially for

permission to

Quoted text (24 lines)

| publish it in the files section of the LWFF-forum :-) | | | | On Mon, 04 Jun 2001 17:55:11 GMT, "Thom j." <[email hidden]> wrote: | | >As you say with your small minded extremely limited subjective opinion!! | >Cheers!! <BFG> | > | >"Paul Laidlaw" wrote: | >| > Thom_j wrote: | >| > Well they have been spot on for me and I feel his info is invaluable | >| > at times but you have the right to your opinion as I do mine!! :o) | >| | >| They are complete and total nonsense! | > | > | | -- | LWFF Ball Bearing conversion at: | http://members.nbci.com/JensSchu/ | | GPLRank: -10.1 | Monsters of GPL: sub 200

--- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.256 / Virus Database: 129 - Release Date: 5/31/2001

Gregor, I didnt detail which setting or settings. I was only trying to give a newbie a place to get an idea where to find good info! As I just re-posted to JS... It was only a friendly comment to a new GPLracer! When somone tries to make me look like a fool with a narrow minded blanketed reply I know they are just being a wise azz! So I just put them in my ignore bin! I have just as much fun on here teazing the next guy when its all in fun but not when I am trying to help one & then another does not need to be rude & make a quick sniped statement just to be a wise azz.. I'm too old for this petty juvenile garbage & I'm certainly not stupid!! Nuff said! :-) Cheers Thom_j. "Gregor Veble" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (20 lines)

| Actually, I just checked the site again. The advice on this page is | sound: | | http://www.slottweak.com/gplintro.htm | | what is written here, though: | | http://www.slottweak.com/gamesettings.htm | | completely abuses the FF engine (it makes the steering feel like a bad | implementation of power steering found on many a roadcar). It all | depends on which settinng you are refering to. | | -Gregor | | "Thom j." wrote: | > | > Well they have been spot on for me and I feel his info is invaluable | > at times but you have the right to your opinion as I do mine!! :o) | >

--- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.256 / Virus Database: 129 - Release Date: 5/31/2001

Thom j. <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:UR7T6.33270$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (9 lines)

> Agreed 100% JS.. Everyone has different driving techniques and styles so > [in my eyes] for anyone to say "They are complete and total nonsense!" is > blatantly rude! I did say: "they have been spot on for me and I feel his > info > is invaluable at times" No more, No less! So after my friendly comment I > receive such a rude reply I just put them in my ignore bin!! > Thank you for trying to: "bring down the tension a bit" but there isnt any > tension on my end :-).. I just consider the reply & rather not deal with a > source with such a blanketed trite petty reply.. Cheers Thom_j.

Sorry if you think I am rude but those settings are nonsense on any wheel. > > "JS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > | May I throw something in? > | > | Beside the fact that FF settings are always following individuallikings, > | different wheels even from the same type are reacting different to agiven > | setting. > | I tried it myself with several old LWFF (why are those thingies all over > my > | house ;-) and needed total different settings to suit my taste. This is true to an extent, but within limits. > | Hope this brings down the tension a bit. I don't see any need to feel at all tense about this! After all we are only talking about force feedback settings! Feel free to use whatever settings you want if you don't agree with my opinion, it's no big deal. Paul

> Actually, I just checked the site again. The advice on this page is > sound: > > http://www.slottweak.com/gplintro.htm Yes, this is quite reasonable.

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > what is written here, though: > > http://www.slottweak.com/gamesettings.htm > > completely abuses the FF engine (it makes the steering feel like a bad > implementation of power steering found on many a roadcar). It all > depends on which settinng you are refering to.

Which is the bit I looked at! As I said, complete and utter nonsense. Paul

Quoted text (11 lines)

> Gregor, I didnt detail which setting or settings. I was only trying > to give a newbie a place to get an idea where to find good info! > As I just re-posted to JS... It was only a friendly comment to a > new GPLracer! > When somone tries to make me look like a fool with a narrow > minded blanketed reply I know they are just being a wise azz! > So I just put them in my ignore bin! I have just as much fun on > here teazing the next guy when its all in fun but not when I am > trying to help one & then another does not need to be rude & > make a quick sniped statement just to be a wise azz.. I'm too > old for this petty juvenile garbage & I'm certainly not stupid!!

I don't remember calling you stupid or a fool. Whilst my reply was rather short, the settings on that link on that webpage are just silly. Perhaps you really meant to post a link to the other part of that page with correct info? Anyway, I didn't intend on insulting anyone, I'm sorry if you were Paul

Hi Thom, fair enough. I didn't want to be a wise ass, but as you said, I did want to sparkle a heated, or at least warm, discussion. The truth is, the FF settings for GPL been a recurring theme every once in a while here, and as the discussion tends to almost always bring up those (IMHO very much wrong) settings found at the previously mentioned site, what's the best way to get attention to them than to start a small flame war? Too bad that you are so well tempered :). I never meant to be disrespectful to you, not at all, and if I came across that way, I apologize. All in all, this is Usenet. :) Greetings, -Gregor "Thom j." wrote:

Quoted text (14 lines)

> > Gregor, I didnt detail which setting or settings. I was only trying > to give a newbie a place to get an idea where to find good info! > As I just re-posted to JS... It was only a friendly comment to a > new GPLracer! > When somone tries to make me look like a fool with a narrow > minded blanketed reply I know they are just being a wise azz! > So I just put them in my ignore bin! I have just as much fun on > here teazing the next guy when its all in fun but not when I am > trying to help one & then another does not need to be rude & > make a quick sniped statement just to be a wise azz.. I'm too > old for this petty juvenile garbage & I'm certainly not stupid!! > Nuff said! :-) Cheers Thom_j. >

On Fri, 08 Jun 2001 11:00:04 +0200, Gregor Veble <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (8 lines)

>Hi Thom, > >fair enough. I didn't want to be a wise ass, but as you said, I did want >to sparkle a heated, or at least warm, discussion. The truth is, the FF >settings for GPL been a recurring theme every once in a while here, and >as the discussion tends to almost always bring up those (IMHO very much >wrong) settings found at the previously mentioned site, what's the best >way to get attention to them than to start a small flame war?

Greger, as I wrote before, I noticed that the ff settings vary majorly on each system. The values needed seem to be dependent on the processor used and the wheel used. When I tried Alison's settings, I felt no ff at all. I tried some other settings but none of them felt correct.. I think the only good way to get the best ff out of GPL is to experiment with your own settings untill it feels just right. Also, I haven't seen the settings on Slot's site, but if I remember correctly he uses very large values. This is also something weird in GPL, using extreme values seem to work also in GPL, even if there's no logic behind it.. Andre

I know FF settings are wheel dependant, but we're talking about factor variances of at most 2, not orders of magnitude different. Believe me, I tried those settings on that page as well, and I could relate to the observations put on their site, but this was not the feetback a steering wheel should reproduce. The feel of the weight of the wheel came only through the strong dampening resistance (that's where my reference to bad power steering systems comes about), and the jerks when driving on grass (which I also observed) most likely come from the numerical artifacts caused by too large factors. The actual feel of the road is completely lacking. -Gregor Andre Warringa wrote:

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > Also, I haven't seen the settings on Slot's site, but if I remember > correctly he uses very large values. This is also something weird in > GPL, using extreme values seem to work also in GPL, even if there's no > logic behind it.. > > Andre

Since you have brought it up Gregor, :-) If you read in the YeeeHaaaa thread I have 2 TM aka Guillemot Ferrari FFB wheels & their joystick too!!! Now there are already 2 sets of core.ini-s that I have seen to be used via GPL on RAS & I have a 3rd.. I know that everyone has their own way to setup their FFB wheels & I have been using Gary's set of values for over a year now but these settings are all so different! How can you find out which one is good and which isnt? I have read Gary's site several times but I get lost with all the 0.300 this & 0.400 that for the damp/spring etc values for the FFB wheel etc & the sim! Can you simplify this more for me? Btw: Never apologize if you feel your comments have merit! I am not thin skinned...lol Also please look at the other "2 [Joystick] values" in the YeeeHaaa posts..ok? If you cant find them I will post the two different ones & mine!! Tia...Thom_j. "Gregor Veble" wrote:

Quoted text (13 lines)

| Hi Thom, | fair enough. I didn't want to be a wise ass, but as you said, I did want | to sparkle a heated, or at least warm, discussion. The truth is, the FF | settings for GPL been a recurring theme every once in a while here, and | as the discussion tends to almost always bring up those (IMHO very much | wrong) settings found at the previously mentioned site, what's the best | way to get attention to them than to start a small flame war? | Too bad that you are so well tempered :). I never meant to be | disrespectful to you, not at all, and if I came across that way, I | apologize. | All in all, this is Usenet. :) | Greetings, | -Gregor

--- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.259 / Virus Database: 130 - Release Date: 6/5/2001

Did you ever hit the nail on the head here Andre!! My values are much higher from Slot's site and seem to have worked perfectly with my TM Ferrari FFB wheel! Now I'm more lost then ever.. phew...lol Here they are: [ Joy ] allow_force_feedback = 1 ; Use FF if device has it force_feedback_damping = 5000 ; this is force feedback strength, not damping force_feedback_latency = 0.0045 ; force feedback latency (secs), use a low number max_steering_torque = 2800 ; this is damping (2500 for the Force RS) In cotnrol panel in my "game controller" via my TM Ferrari FFB wheel for GPL I use in Gain Settings: 50% on Overall Device Gain 0% Spring Gain 0% Damper Gain Lately I've been checking "Always on" 13% Default Spring "Also I crank my linear all the way to the left in GPL! And I know most wont believe this but I use 12:1 max to my usual 10:1 down to 8:1 steer lock. Now thats tight & I love it this way!! :-)" Go figure..eh? Also no pedels for gas/brake only paddles on the wheel!! I must do all my braking, gas, shifting, steering, clutching with my hands only. I cant use my feet or legs.. {long boring story} Any & All Helpful Suggestions Welcome!! Tia.. Thom_j. "Andre Warringa" wrote: | Also, I haven't seen the settings on Slot's site, but if I remember | correctly he uses very large values. This is also something weird in | GPL, using extreme values seem to work also in GPL, even if there's no | logic behind it.. | | Andre --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.259 / Virus Database: 130 - Release Date: 6/5/2001