GPL graphics cards

I've just bought GPL, and I need some advice about graphics cards. Currently, I have a 450 AMD with 64 megs and I'm running it in software mode. In the cockpit view, I'm getting about 8fps, and in the chase view 11fps. Obviously, I'm going to have to bite the bullet and get a graphics card[1]. So the question is, what should I get? I need to check here because the game is now three years old, and the graphics card scene has moved on a bit in that time! The game supports Rendition and 3dfx, but I notice there is a patch for D3D (whatever that is..) I don't want to spend a huge amount of money. �100 or so. Less if possible. Something that is supported by GP3 as well. I'm not looking to end up with a state-of-the-art megacard. Just something that will give me 20-30 fps at 800x600 or better. Suggestions? Bear in mind I know very little about graphics cards. I assume these days they are all 2D/3D combined, so I can throw away my current 2D card? I've heard good things about the TNT2 - does that work will with GPL and GP3? Thanks in advance. Huw [1] Hey it's an old machine, and Age of Empires and Rollercoaster Tycoon don't need a 3D card, OK? :-)

The thing with GPL is that it needs 3DFX. This is a proprietary format that is not the same as Direct3D (another proprietary format - this time from Microsnot). Basically you'll need to get hold of a card that supports 3dfx. You'll see from the documentation that came with GPL that there's a very limited set of cards. At it's most basic you'll need a Voodoo2 card. I think. I have a Voodoo 3500 TV and it's oarsome. Be aware, most salesman at computer shops will say "yes this is 3dfx compatible" but unless you see the 3dfx compatible logo on the side don't buy it. In the meantime, you may want to look into 3dfx emulators which are said to be able to pretend to be a 3dfx card (Glide I think is the term). They were'nt available for my Matrox G400 so now I've got two cards! Ric "Huw Morris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I've just bought GPL, and I need some advice about graphics cards. > > Currently, I have a 450 AMD with 64 megs and I'm running it in softwaremode. > In the cockpit view, I'm getting about 8fps, and in the chase view 11fps. > Obviously, I'm going to have to bite the bullet and get a graphicscard[1]. So > the question is, what should I get? > > I need to check here because the game is now three years old, and thegraphics > card scene has moved on a bit in that time! The game supports Renditionand 3dfx, > but I notice there is a patch for D3D (whatever that is..) > > I don't want to spend a huge amount of money. �100 or so. Less ifpossible. > Something that is supported by GP3 as well. I'm not looking to end up witha > state-of-the-art megacard. Just something that will give me 20-30 fps at > 800x600 or better. Suggestions? > > Bear in mind I know very little about graphics cards. I assume these daysthey

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> are all 2D/3D combined, so I can throw away my current 2D card? I've heard > good things about the TNT2 - does that work will with GPL and GP3? > > Thanks in advance. > > Huw > > [1] Hey it's an old machine, and Age of Empires and Rollercoaster Tycoon

don't > need a 3D card, OK? :-)

"Huw Morris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I've just bought GPL, and I need some advice about graphics cards. > > Currently, I have a 450 AMD with 64 megs and I'm running it in softwaremode. > In the cockpit view, I'm getting about 8fps, and in the chase view 11fps. > Obviously, I'm going to have to bite the bullet and get a graphicscard[1]. So > the question is, what should I get? > > I need to check here because the game is now three years old, and thegraphics > card scene has moved on a bit in that time! The game supports Renditionand 3dfx, > but I notice there is a patch for D3D (whatever that is..) > > I don't want to spend a huge amount of money. �100 or so. Less ifpossible. > Something that is supported by GP3 as well. I'm not looking to end up witha > state-of-the-art megacard. Just something that will give me 20-30 fps at > 800x600 or better. Suggestions? > > Bear in mind I know very little about graphics cards. I assume these daysthey

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> are all 2D/3D combined, so I can throw away my current 2D card? I've heard > good things about the TNT2 - does that work will with GPL and GP3? > > Thanks in advance. > > Huw > > [1] Hey it's an old machine, and Age of Empires and Rollercoaster Tycoon

don't > need a 3D card, OK? :-) Huw, A few points: 1) What graphics card do you have at present? It may well offer you some improvement when used in conjunction with the D3D patch you mention 2) The D3D patch allows GPL to make use of the 3D accelerated functions on cards that support the D3D API. <simplified mode> There are a number of different "languages" that programs can use to "talk" to 3D cards - and most graphics cards understand at least one of these. The most used include D3D, OpenGL and Glide (3dfx) Out-of-the-box, GPL only "talks" Glide and Rendition. That means that only a card with 3dfx or rendition chips on it will "understand" the 3d graphics. The most popular two graphics "languages" are now OpenGl and D3D. The unsupported OpenGL and D3D patches released for GPL allow it to speak these "languages", thus allowing accelerated 3D graphics on most graphics cards. Because Glide and the Rendition language were closely linked with particular hardware - they generally offered better performance (fps) on the same hardware than the same game running under D3D or Glide, which brings us on to 3) 3) An AMD K6-450 is not exactly cutting edge - and GPL can be very demanding. You will probably be best trying to find a card based on a 3dfx chipset (a Voodoo card), as this will help maximise framerate. If you want to keep your current card, try and find a "Voodoo 2" card. This is a standalone 3D card that fits in a full length PCI slot and works in conjunction with your current card. You'll only be able to get them second-hand, and it should cost you somewhere around �25. You could also replace your current card with a Voodoo 3, 4 or 5. These offer increasing performance and resolution, with the voodoo5 in particular offering excellent image quality thanks to its Full-Screen-Anti-Aliasing features (FSAA) that smooth out the "jaggy" lines where one colour meets another on the computer screen. These cards all come in PCI or AGP formats. Again , due to the demsise of 3dfx, you'll probably have to look for these second-hand. 4) All the above advice in 3) is relevant only for GPL. 3dfx cards are now a technology dead-end, and will get no more support. There are already games being released that do not - and will not - run on Voodoo 2 and Voodoo 3 cards. However - your AMD 450 is not exactly cutting edge either - and spending a lot of money on a graphics card for this machine is not particularly sensible - IMHO. Another downside of the Voodoo 2/3 cards is that they will not run some of the latest community-developed add-on tracks as well as other cards - but again - your processor will probably be as much of a limit here. 5) If you do want a new graphics card that you can later transfer to a more powerful machine, for your budget consider the GeForce2 MX range of cards. These will work with the D3D patch on GPL, but will not offer as good a framerate as a Voodoo card. You'll be able to buy these new for less than �100. Hope this helps...... Ian

you need a voodoo3 2000, i have a p2 400 and i get 36fps Huw Morris <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I've just bought GPL, and I need some advice about graphics cards. > > Currently, I have a 450 AMD with 64 megs and I'm running it in softwaremode. > In the cockpit view, I'm getting about 8fps, and in the chase view 11fps. > Obviously, I'm going to have to bite the bullet and get a graphicscard[1]. So > the question is, what should I get? > > I need to check here because the game is now three years old, and thegraphics > card scene has moved on a bit in that time! The game supports Renditionand 3dfx, > but I notice there is a patch for D3D (whatever that is..) > > I don't want to spend a huge amount of money. �100 or so. Less ifpossible. > Something that is supported by GP3 as well. I'm not looking to end up witha > state-of-the-art megacard. Just something that will give me 20-30 fps at > 800x600 or better. Suggestions? > > Bear in mind I know very little about graphics cards. I assume these daysthey

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> are all 2D/3D combined, so I can throw away my current 2D card? I've heard > good things about the TNT2 - does that work will with GPL and GP3? > > Thanks in advance. > > Huw > > [1] Hey it's an old machine, and Age of Empires and Rollercoaster Tycoon

don't > need a 3D card, OK? :-)

Er...GPL runs in Direct3D and OpenGL and with Rendition cards as well. "Ric Danger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:smJS6.100574$[email hidden]... > The thing with GPL is that it needs 3DFX. This is a proprietary formatthat > is not the same as Direct3D (another proprietary format - this time from > Microsnot). > > Basically you'll need to get hold of a card that supports 3dfx. You'll see > from the documentation that came with GPL that there's a very limited setof

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> cards. At it's most basic you'll need a Voodoo2 card. I think. I have a > Voodoo 3500 TV and it's oarsome. > > Be aware, most salesman at computer shops will say "yes this is 3dfx > compatible" but unless you see the 3dfx compatible logo on the side don't > buy it. > > In the meantime, you may want to look into 3dfx emulators which are said

to > be able to pretend to be a 3dfx card (Glide I think is the term). They > were'nt available for my Matrox G400 so now I've got two cards! > > Ric

For the best results with your CPU I would get a V3 3000 AGP or V3 3500 AGP, or maybe a V4 or V5 if you can afford one. There is a D3D patch for GPL on Papyrus website, which makes GPL work with cards like nVidia GeForce / GeForce 2 / GeForce 3, and ATI Radeon cards, but the D3D patch is a little slower than running GPL on a Voodoo (3dfx) card, and with your CPU being a little out-of-date you may well need that extra speed. If you had a P3-1000, a P4 or an Athlon-1000, or something of that speed, and you were running with the D3D patch, then the performance of the D3D patch wouldn't matter, because GPL would easily max-out at 36 fps, even with a full field. In that case it would be fine to buy something like a GF2 GTS/Pro or a Radeon, but since your CPU is only 450 MHz, I think a Voodoo card would be better for GPL. "Huw Morris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I've just bought GPL, and I need some advice about graphics cards. > > Currently, I have a 450 AMD with 64 megs and I'm running it in softwaremode. > In the cockpit view, I'm getting about 8fps, and in the chase view 11fps. > Obviously, I'm going to have to bite the bullet and get a graphicscard[1]. So > the question is, what should I get? > > I need to check here because the game is now three years old, and thegraphics > card scene has moved on a bit in that time! The game supports Renditionand 3dfx, > but I notice there is a patch for D3D (whatever that is..) > > I don't want to spend a huge amount of money. �100 or so. Less ifpossible. > Something that is supported by GP3 as well. I'm not looking to end up witha > state-of-the-art megacard. Just something that will give me 20-30 fps at > 800x600 or better. Suggestions? > > Bear in mind I know very little about graphics cards. I assume these daysthey

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> are all 2D/3D combined, so I can throw away my current 2D card? I've heard > good things about the TNT2 - does that work will with GPL and GP3? > > Thanks in advance. > > Huw > > [1] Hey it's an old machine, and Age of Empires and Rollercoaster Tycoon

don't > need a 3D card, OK? :-)

Well.... I recently went from a Voodoo 3000 AGP to an Asus nVidia card (on a P2 450mhz) and found no measurable decrease in frame rates. The other factor to consider: 3dfx is a dead technology essentially, while nVidia continues to gain strength. You'll be lucky to get another driver upgrade for any 3dfx card, especially given that nVidia purchased most of the assets of 3dfx. Why buy yourself into a dead-end? If you can buy an nVidia card for PCI, I'd say that's your best bet. Simon Brown wrote:

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> > For the best results with your CPU I would get a V3 3000 AGP or V3 3500 AGP, > or maybe a V4 or V5 if you can afford one. > > There is a D3D patch for GPL on Papyrus website, which makes GPL work with > cards like nVidia GeForce / GeForce 2 / GeForce 3, and ATI Radeon cards, but > the D3D patch is a little slower than running GPL on a Voodoo (3dfx) card, > and with your CPU being a little out-of-date you may well need that extra > speed. If you had a P3-1000, a P4 or an Athlon-1000, or something of that > speed, and you were running with the D3D patch, then the performance of the > D3D patch wouldn't matter, because GPL would easily max-out at 36 fps, even > with a full field. In that case it would be fine to buy something like a > GF2 GTS/Pro or a Radeon, but since your CPU is only 450 MHz, I think a > Voodoo card would be better for GPL. > > "Huw Morris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I've just bought GPL, and I need some advice about graphics cards. > > > > Currently, I have a 450 AMD with 64 megs and I'm running it in software > mode. > > In the cockpit view, I'm getting about 8fps, and in the chase view 11fps. > > Obviously, I'm going to have to bite the bullet and get a graphics > card[1]. So > > the question is, what should I get? > > > > I need to check here because the game is now three years old, and the > graphics > > card scene has moved on a bit in that time! The game supports Rendition > and 3dfx, > > but I notice there is a patch for D3D (whatever that is..) > > > > I don't want to spend a huge amount of money. �100 or so. Less if > possible. > > Something that is supported by GP3 as well. I'm not looking to end up with > a > > state-of-the-art megacard. Just something that will give me 20-30 fps at > > 800x600 or better. Suggestions? > > > > Bear in mind I know very little about graphics cards. I assume these days > they > > are all 2D/3D combined, so I can throw away my current 2D card? I've heard > > good things about the TNT2 - does that work will with GPL and GP3? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > Huw > > > > [1] Hey it's an old machine, and Age of Empires and Rollercoaster Tycoon > don't > > need a 3D card, OK? :-)

"John Zumsteg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Well.... > I recently went from a Voodoo 3000 AGP to an Asus nVidia card (on a P2 > 450mhz) and found no measurable decrease in frame rates. The other > factor to consider: 3dfx is a dead technology essentially, while nVidia > continues to gain strength. You'll be lucky to get another driver > upgrade for any 3dfx card, especially given that nVidia purchased most > of the assets of 3dfx. Why buy yourself into a dead-end? If you can buy > an nVidia card for PCI, I'd say that's your best bet. >

<stuff snipped> The original poster has an AMD 450 - which has considerably less FPU power than a P2 450 - more akin to a P2 300 to 250. I can testify that my K6-III 400 ran GPL *much* better on a Voodoo2 under Glide than a TNT2 with the D3D patch - especially in the cockpit view at race starts. Ian

"Ian Riches" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<9ffntf$3nv9u$[email hidden]>...

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> 3) An AMD K6-450 is not exactly cutting edge - and GPL can be very > demanding. You will probably be best trying to find a card based on a 3dfx > chipset (a Voodoo card), as this will help maximise framerate. > > If you want to keep your current card, try and find a "Voodoo 2" card. This > is a standalone 3D card that fits in a full length PCI slot and works in > conjunction with your current card. You'll only be able to get them > second-hand, and it should cost you somewhere around �25. > > You could also replace your current card with a Voodoo 3, 4 or 5.

Thanks for the help. I've ordered a Voodoo 3 3000 from Watford Electronics. Incidently, does anybody have any recomendations for online computer hardware stuff in the UK other than Watford? (Nothing against WE, I've always found them reliable.) Huw

"Huw Morris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > "Ian Riches" <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:<9ffntf$3nv9u$[email hidden]>... <snip> > Incidently, does anybody have any recomendations for online computerhardware > stuff in the UK other than Watford? (Nothing against WE, I've alwaysfound them > reliable.) > > Huw Without hesitation, first choice is DABS http://www.dabs.com/ mainly because their MD is regularly present on uk.comp.vendors answering questions/comments etc. -- Laurence Wilmer [email hidden] --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.256 / Virus Database: 129 - Release Date: 31/05/01

Just trying to give impartial advice. I upgraded from a V3 3000 AGP to a GF2 GTS (32MB) and GPL performance went down (p3-650). You say "no measurable decrease in frame rates", I presume you mean the game was still running 36 fps most of the time. This is not a valid test of performance. To see if GPL runs faster on a Voodoo card you'd have to run GPL under demanding conditions, like full-grid (19 opponents) race starts with the detail slider bar on full form cockpit view. Under these conditions I used to get 27 fps on my V3, I now get 24 fps on the GF2. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the GF2, it's a fantastic card. It's the card I run GPL with, and I'm delighted with it overall. It's just that the D3D renderer for GPL didn't get the testing and optimizing that the Glide renderer had, afterall the D3D renderer was written in Grant Reeve's spare time. It's true the V3/V5 are dead-end cards, but so is a TNT2, GeForce 1 or GF2 MX because of it's performance. If you were looking for a quick fix to give a real improvement to GPL (vs software renderer) for very little money, I still say a V3 is unbeatable. "John Zumsteg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Well.... > I recently went from a Voodoo 3000 AGP to an Asus nVidia card (on a P2 > 450mhz) and found no measurable decrease in frame rates. The other > factor to consider: 3dfx is a dead technology essentially, while nVidia > continues to gain strength. You'll be lucky to get another driver > upgrade for any 3dfx card, especially given that nVidia purchased most > of the assets of 3dfx. Why buy yourself into a dead-end? If you can buy > an nVidia card for PCI, I'd say that's your best bet. >

Huw Morris <[email hidden]> wrote on 04 Jun 2001: > Thanks for the help. I've ordered a Voodoo 3 3000 from Watford > Electronics. <snip> [miles OT] My BBC Model B+ has a Watford 1770 dual floppy drive from Watford. Fifteen years old, weighs about as much as a BRM and has never, EVER broken down. That's why I still buy stuff from WE. [less OT] and of course the BBC Micro is where it all began - Revs! -- David. (GPLRank handicap -5.92; Monsters of GPLRank h/cap +272.44) The GPL Scrapyard: http://scrapyard.9ug.com "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really" - Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh.

Huw Morris I think you're good to go with the V3, given your specs. But I would suggest this if your motherboard supports it: Replacing your K6-2 with a K6-2+ chip, that features 128kb of on chip cache. I replaced my k6-2 500 with a k6-2+ clocked @550 and I got a very substantial performance increase in GPL with a Voodoo3 2000. The K6-2 450 (which will clock to 550 without trouble) can be had in the states for 35.00 from tigerdirect.com. If you can get one cheaply it's well worth it. Simon Brown <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:C5QS6.495$[email hidden]... > Just trying to give impartial advice. I upgraded from a V3 3000 AGP to a > GF2 GTS (32MB) and GPL performance went down (p3-650). > > You say "no measurable decrease in frame rates", I presume you mean thegame

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> was still running 36 fps most of the time. This is not a valid test of > performance. To see if GPL runs faster on a Voodoo card you'd have to run > GPL under demanding conditions, like full-grid (19 opponents) race starts > with the detail slider bar on full form cockpit view. Under these > conditions I used to get 27 fps on my V3, I now get 24 fps on the GF2. > > I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the GF2, it's a fantastic card. > It's the card I run GPL with, and I'm delighted with it overall. It's

just > that the D3D renderer for GPL didn't get the testing and optimizing thatthe > Glide renderer had, afterall the D3D renderer was written in Grant Reeve's > spare time. > > It's true the V3/V5 are dead-end cards, but so is a TNT2, GeForce 1 or GF2 > MX because of it's performance. If you were looking for a quick fix togive

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> a real improvement to GPL (vs software renderer) for very little money, I > still say a V3 is unbeatable. > > "John Zumsteg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Well.... > > I recently went from a Voodoo 3000 AGP to an Asus nVidia card (on a P2 > > 450mhz) and found no measurable decrease in frame rates. The other > > factor to consider: 3dfx is a dead technology essentially, while nVidia > > continues to gain strength. You'll be lucky to get another driver > > upgrade for any 3dfx card, especially given that nVidia purchased most > > of the assets of 3dfx. Why buy yourself into a dead-end? If you can buy > > an nVidia card for PCI, I'd say that's your best bet. > > > > >

The D3D patch from Papy is great, and a 3dfx or rendition card is no longer a necessaty to get decent graphics in GPL. I run GPL with a GeForce2 MX card - Hercules Prophet - and it looks fantastic. I would not hesitate to recommend the MX card. Don Burnette "Ric Danger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:smJS6.100574$[email hidden]... > The thing with GPL is that it needs 3DFX. This is a proprietary formatthat > is not the same as Direct3D (another proprietary format - this time from > Microsnot). > > Basically you'll need to get hold of a card that supports 3dfx. You'll see > from the documentation that came with GPL that there's a very limited setof

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> cards. At it's most basic you'll need a Voodoo2 card. I think. I have a > Voodoo 3500 TV and it's oarsome. > > Be aware, most salesman at computer shops will say "yes this is 3dfx > compatible" but unless you see the 3dfx compatible logo on the side don't > buy it. > > In the meantime, you may want to look into 3dfx emulators which are said

to

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> be able to pretend to be a 3dfx card (Glide I think is the term). They > were'nt available for my Matrox G400 so now I've got two cards! > > Ric > > "Huw Morris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I've just bought GPL, and I need some advice about graphics cards. > > > > Currently, I have a 450 AMD with 64 megs and I'm running it in software > mode. > > In the cockpit view, I'm getting about 8fps, and in the chase view

11fps.

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> > Obviously, I'm going to have to bite the bullet and get a graphics > card[1]. So > > the question is, what should I get? > > > > I need to check here because the game is now three years old, and the > graphics > > card scene has moved on a bit in that time! The game supports Rendition > and 3dfx, > > but I notice there is a patch for D3D (whatever that is..) > > > > I don't want to spend a huge amount of money. �100 or so. Less if > possible. > > Something that is supported by GP3 as well. I'm not looking to end up

with > a > > state-of-the-art megacard. Just something that will give me 20-30 fps at > > 800x600 or better. Suggestions? > > > > Bear in mind I know very little about graphics cards. I assume thesedays > they > > are all 2D/3D combined, so I can throw away my current 2D card? I'veheard

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> > good things about the TNT2 - does that work will with GPL and GP3? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > Huw > > > > [1] Hey it's an old machine, and Age of Empires and Rollercoaster Tycoon > don't > > need a 3D card, OK? :-) > >

Huw Morris wrote: > Thanks for the help. I've ordered a Voodoo 3 3000 from Watford Electronics. Good choice. I had a K6-500 with the Voodoo 3 card and it worked quite nicely with GPL. I still had to turn off some of the graphics to get good frame rates for races though. That was a CPU shortcoming however. When I put the Voodoo3 into my 1.3gig Thunderbird machine, I turned everything ON and got 36fps. Even at the start of a race with a 20 car grid, it would only drop to 30fps. Gary